sheng zhen

Full lotus

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I found this yoga routine that I wanted to share because it has made me able to sit in the full lotus afterwards, which for me, with a damaged knee and my extremely stiff norwegian hips, was a great achievement.

 

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=9...annel=301783449

 

Its yoga for the hips and takes just about 20 min.

 

It would also be interesting to hear if someone else has some other techniques they use to be able to do the full lotus. My guess is that Drew, the full lotus guru, might have(if he hasnt told us allready somewhere)? :)

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Each day I start out in half lotus for about 5 minutes. My energy channels are just sort of half open, so I sit in full-lotus as much as possible throughout the day. People think this is meditation which it kind of is, as the full-lotus brings the energy to 3rd eye focus and the vagus nerve starts pulling up the bliss light, shooting it out where I focus my eyes.

 

Actually there is a method to the madness.

 

So "clear light" in Tibetan Buddhism means the same as female formless awareness -- or prajnaparamita, from the Indian sutras. You can't see clear light and it's actually pure female knowledge.

 

The Taoists call this "Wu Chi" -- it can not be visualized and it's modelled through harmonics. No one can know the Tao.

 

Buddha taught that the best method for our age is the "inner ear method." Same thing as Taoism -- you can't visualize female formless awareness but you can listen to it, as the source of time.

 

This meaning is clear in Advaita Vedanta which relies on logical inference (a positive solution that the source of the I-thought IS consciousness, not just something which can not be named or is some paradox). Buddhism relies on "neti, neti" logic or proof by contradiction (just without the algebraic connection to geometry), leaving the source unnameable and also the method harder to model.

 

Time in India is kala but spirals into kali, as female formless awareness. Again this is modeled through complementary opposite harmonics -- shiva-shakti as the source of ohm.

 

The 3 in 1 paradox is based on the simple fact that when we LISTEN this process resonates the electrochemical energy into electromagnetic energy, turning into light, that bends spacetime, back into consciousness.

 

So the one exists but the process to resonate with the source of the one inherently includes body (electrochemical energy), mind (electromagnetic energy) and spirit (light). The one is the source of those three and the one, as female formless awareness, is the only "substance" which does not change.

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Thanks sheng zhen, Lin posted that some simply stretches are all that is needed but I've been to lazy to research some.

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Each day I start out in half lotus for about 5 minutes. My energy channels are just sort of half open, so I sit in full-lotus as much as possible throughout the day. People think this is meditation which it kind of is, as the full-lotus brings the energy to 3rd eye focus and the vagus nerve starts pulling up the bliss light, shooting it out where I focus my eyes.

 

Actually there is a method to the madness.

 

So "clear light" in Tibetan Buddhism means the same as female formless awareness -- or prajnaparamita, from the Indian sutras. You can't see clear light and it's actually pure female knowledge.

 

The Taoists call this "Wu Chi" -- it can not be visualized and it's modelled through harmonics. No one can know the Tao.

 

 

So This "Clear Light" named by Tibetan Buddhism is you picturing we can say observing the brightest light the female has so far cultivated? If you can call it cultivation. (I'm not too sure how the light is brought about or experienced from a females prospective but is it safe to say they there is some sort of practice have to bring the brightness higher?) What is Clear light supposed to look like? Even if we observe this from a female. I'm interested to know?

 

What do you mean you can't see clear light and its actually pure female knowledge? are you saying, that only females can see it, you only observe it through them, if they openly show it to you?

Edited by WhiteTiger

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So This "Clear Light" named by Tibetan Buddhism is you picturing we can say observing the brightest light the female has so far cultivated? If you can call it cultivation. (I'm not too sure how the light is brought about or experienced from a females prospective but is it safe to say they there is some sort of practice have to bring the brightness higher?) What is Clear light supposed to look like? Even if we observe this from a female. I'm interested to know?

 

What do you mean you can't see clear light and its actually pure female knowledge? are you saying, that only females can see it, you only observe it through them, if they openly show it to you?

 

 

there is a thread called 'secrets of female formless awareness' where Drew has extensively explained what it means. :)

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I found this yoga routine that I wanted to share because it has made me able to sit in the full lotus afterwards, which for me, with a damaged knee and my extremely stiff norwegian hips, was a great achievement.

 

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=9...annel=301783449

 

Its yoga for the hips and takes just about 20 min.

 

Thanks very much for the video lesson.

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Each day I start out in half lotus for about 5 minutes. My energy channels are just sort of half open, so I sit in full-lotus as much as possible throughout the day. People think this is meditation which it kind of is, as the full-lotus brings the energy to 3rd eye focus and the vagus nerve starts pulling up the bliss light, shooting it out where I focus my eyes.

But Drew, when you first started learning full lotus, how did you train yourself?

Did you do any special streching exercises or did you just do spiring forest qigong and suddenly you could smack ringht into full lotus bliss?

How was your way into full lotus?

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Let me say something about this issue:

 

1. Full lotus is not a mandatory requirement to achieve Buddhahood or any other spiritual goal you are involved.

2. Semilotus is as good or even better for anyone with physical shortcoming for full lotus.

3. Sitting cross-legged is as good or even better than semilotus especially if someone wants to meditate for prolonged periods of time without the nuisance of pins and needles in the legs.

4. Siddharta Gautama meditated most of the time lying down. And he recommended sitting, standing, walking and lying down meditations. You can read this in the Discourses of the Buddha. Also here for free:

 

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm

 

Standing is Zhan Zhuang, interesting hey? ;)

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Let me say something about this issue:

 

1. Full lotus is not a mandatory requirement to achieve Buddhahood or any other spiritual goal you are involved.

2. Semilotus is as good or even better for anyone with physical shortcoming for full lotus.

3. Sitting cross-legged is as good or even better than semilotus especially if someone wants to meditate for prolonged periods of time without the nuisance of pins and needles in the legs.

4. Siddharta Gautama meditated most of the time lying down. And he recommended sitting, standing, walking and lying down meditations. You can read this in the Discourses of the Buddha. Also here for free:

 

http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/mahasatipatthanasutta.htm

 

Standing is Zhan Zhuang, interesting hey? ;)

I totally agree that you can meditate in any position, and I agree with all the above points, but still you cant do a full lotus meditation without being able to sit full lotus! Thats pretty obvious isnt it? ;) I hope this thread can be used to explain the different benefits of full lotus and how to be able to do it.

 

Full lotus is not mandatory, but it is special! It gives something special to the meditation that only full lotus gives. I am shure anybody who has done full lotus meditation without any disturbing pain can confirm this.

 

Those who havent done it, and those who are to lazy to learn it and really try it, will probably just continue saying that it is not nessecary, like I have been doing for 15 years of my meditating career. Ive only realized the gift of full lotus recently and if I dont work with it every day I get stiff and painful again in no time and have to start all over again.

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Those who havent done it, and those who are to lazy to learn it and really try it, will probably just continue saying that it is not nessecary, like I have been doing for 15 years of my meditating career. Ive only realized the gift of full lotus recently and if I dont work with it every day I get stiff and painful again in no time and have to start all over again.

 

That's me :) I hope to benefit from your experience.

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I've been told by a trustworthy master that one's ability or inability to assume the full lotus position is karmically determined, and that one's inability to sit in full lotus indicates a karmic load heavier than otherwise. If someone can't do it and keeps practicing to make oneself able to do it, the pain and endurance, the dedication and courage, dissipate adverse karma in direct proportion to the amount of pain, endurance, dedication and courage invested into mastering the pose. Of course for a Westerner all standard disclaimers apply -- don't push yourself harder than safe, do it gradually, practice stretches and, ideally, try to do it under supervision... I remember a horror story related by a friend of mine, a yoga teacher, who had to deliver one of her students to the emergency room in the full lotus position -- he got stuck there solid, cramped, couldn't un-lotus his legs without medical intervention.

 

As for spiritual benefits of other kinds of meditation, I believe they are there for someone who is able to sit in full lotus even if he or she isn't sitting at the moment and is doing it differently. For someone who is unable to assume this posture, however, I don't believe it's anything but a waste of time to practice other kinds of meditation until and unless this one is mastered. (Don't throw anything too heavy, please).

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I currently meditate in a chair. I can do the half lotus, but it's not that comfortable for me, the discomfort takes away from my dhyrana practices.

 

 

I wish some one would make a complete step by step dvd or book you can buy specifically for the half and full lotus positions, if anybody knows of one, please let me know.

 

Here is a great article written by drew on the purpose of the full lotus: http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/162-Yo...psychology.html

 

 

Namaste,

 

Immortal

Edited by Immortal

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I currently meditate in a chair. I can do the half lotus, but it's not that comfortable for me, the discomfort takes away from my dhyrana practices.

 

What are the main benefits of the half/full lotus vs. a chair position or any other position for that matter. Mantak Chia says that it's not necessary for energy meditation, but I wonder if adding it makes a difference.

 

I could see for long vipassana type that the full lotus would not be a great option because of the length of time that it's held (it can cause damage to the legs), but for energy for work like microcosmic orbit it might have some benefits not to mention the orbit practice only takes about 20-30 min so that shouldn't be a problem for most as long as the discomfort does not distract your concentration on directing you qi.

 

I wish some one would make a complete step by step dvd or book you can buy specifically for the half and full lotus positions, if anybody knows of one, please let me know.

The benefits you discover once you do it. At one point I suggested an exercise at another forum -- balance a raw (undamaged) egg on one end (not on the side) -- on the point, so it stands rather than lies. This little but educational exercise can nonverbally, kinesthetically explain to one how precise centering must be for someone or something mobile and alive to be truly "centered." A fraction of a millimeter off and the balancing doesn't happen. You either find the egg's center or you don't; it's either balanced or it isn't; there's no in-betweens.

 

Well, the full lotus is similar in this respect. There's no other position for the human bodymind that can spell out (nonverbally) whether you are centered and balanced. "Thinking" in the head (or 'non-thinking' for that matter, which is still an in-the-head activity even if it's an inactivity) that one is centered and balanced is common, and commonly self-deceptive; full lotus reveals the truth.

 

Can't point you to any good sources, sorry, but I can tell you how I learned it. A number of years ago, someone invited me to an informal (just a gathering of friends and family members) all-Chinese qigong class; most participants didn't speak any English. I started doing what they were doing and then they all assumed the lotus pose for the final meditation. I got in a half lotus which was all I thought I could do. The teacher said, no, full lotus please. I laughed and said, yeah right, I can't do that. He said, impatiently and indignantly, you don't respect me at all, do you? I go, what do you mean? He says, you think I'd ask you to sit in full lotus if you couldn't? I am looking at you and I'm telling you you can. Don't you trust my assessment at all? Do you think I'm a fool?

 

So, well, he intimidated me into trying. I tried... he helped me by explaining a few details... like the comfortable position of the toes -- no curling -- and the swinging of the leg that goes under the other one all the way to the thigh, which is, surprisingly, easier than putting it closer to the knee -- lo and behold... I did it right on the spot. And as soon as I did, a flood of joy overcame me. So that's how I learned.

 

To learn to hold it for prolonged periods of time without the physical sensations flooding out your meditative focus is another matter -- and, like everything else, a matter of practice. At first, I decided to keep it for a minute and add fifteen seconds every day. Anyone can do fifteen seconds of anything, however uncomfortable, right? Wrong. At first it hurt like a bastard. But at the end of the year, I could do an hour, nothing to it. Practice, practice, practice... <_<

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The goal of achieving full lotus is not a must, please don't get obsessed with this issue. Meditate in a way that is comfortable for you and try to be relaxed during meditation. Use Vipassana as your main meditative technique.

 

In addition, living in a contemplative environment and getting involved in frequent spiritual retreats are the keys to spiritual growth (not mentioning here Buddhist teachings).

 

I have achieved high Jhana as well and don't meditate full lotus either:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana

 

 

All the best.

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I've been told by a trustworthy master that one's ability or inability to assume the full lotus position is karmically determined, and that one's inability to sit in full lotus indicates a karmic load heavier than otherwise. If someone can't do it and keeps practicing to make oneself able to do it, the pain and endurance, the dedication and courage, dissipate adverse karma in direct proportion to the amount of pain, endurance, dedication and courage invested into mastering the pose.

Cool

 

 

Can't point you to any good sources, sorry, but I can tell you how I learned it. A number of years ago, someone invited me to an informal (just a gathering of friends and family members) all-Chinese qigong class; most participants didn't speak any English. I started doing what they were doing and then they all assumed the lotus pose for the final meditation. I got in a half lotus which was all I thought I could do. The teacher said, no, full lotus please. I laughed and said, yeah right, I can't do that. He said, impatiently and indignantly, you don't respect me at all, do you? I go, what do you mean? He says, you think I'd ask you to sit in full lotus if you couldn't? I am looking at you and I'm telling you you can. Don't you trust my assessment at all? Do you think I'm a fool?

 

So, well, he intimidated me into trying. I tried... he helped me by explaining a few details... like the comfortable position of the toes -- no curling -- and the swinging of the leg that goes under the other one all the way to the thigh, which is, surprisingly, easier than putting it closer to the knee -- lo and behold... I did it right on the spot. And as soon as I did, a flood of joy overcame me. So that's how I learned.

 

haha scary. Do you look like your AV photo (skinny and flexable) I look more like budda

My friend claimed he did not have the "right body type." That's bogus.

Just keep practicing.

but I can't use that excuse anymore :blink:

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I suppose I should give back the strength, inner peace, and inner revolutionary changes that have occurred to me since I started meditating. :) You may also want to tell the cancer patients that have overcome their pain (see Jon Kabat-Zinn for starters), and the countless numbers of people who have benefited from mindfulness practices.

 

Most Buddhist teachers would strongly disagree with this statement, and see it as an attachment or clinging to form. It may depend on the type of mediation and what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to increase, refine, or purify inner energies, perhaps there is a point. But if you're building awareness and insight, then this is obviously not the case. I think perhaps this is a fundamental difference between Buddhist and Taoist approaches: Buddhism doesn't teach liberation by attaining, increasing, or getting--- it liberates through insight and wisdom. How to get insight and wisdom? Ethical conduct and building strong concentration. Then one can see reality for oneself. It doesn't matter if you have one legs or two, if you're a hunchback or paralyzed, you can practice ethical behavior, concentrate the mind, and develop wisdom.

 

 

For someone who is unable to assume this posture, however, I don't believe it's anything but a waste of time to practice other kinds of meditation until and unless this one is mastered. (Don't throw anything too heavy, please).

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Wasn't too heavy :)

 

Seems to be 2 (thousand?) distince flavours of meditation.

 

sit through the pain

and

sit without pain

 

Are they acheiving the same thing in different ways? or are there different goals?

trying to increase, refine, or purify inner energies or building awareness and insight,

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Most Buddhist teachers would strongly disagree with this statement, and see it as an attachment or clinging to form. It may depend on the type of mediation and what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to increase, refine, or purify inner energies, perhaps there is a point. But if you're building awareness and insight, then this is obviously not the case. I think perhaps this is a fundamental difference between Buddhist and Taoist approaches: Buddhism doesn't teach liberation by attaining, increasing, or getting--- it liberates through insight and wisdom. How to get insight and wisdom? Ethical conduct and building strong concentration. Then one can see reality for oneself. It doesn't matter if you have one legs or two, if you're a hunchback or paralyzed, you can practice ethical behavior, concentrate the mind, and develop wisdom.

 

About the benifts of full lotus I got no clue. Yet at the same time I rather do a practice to its full and best originally taught way, or if i find a person that teaches it better and can prove it through teaching me why, then he has made me a believer ONLY IF I HAVE TRIED BOTH WAYS FIRST!

 

Taoist approaches, I'm talking purely about taoism (I could be wrong I didn't learn formally) but nevertheless this is my view on the subject based my own experiences. So i would be very opened to hearing other views on the matter and even enjoy an engaged conversation on the matter if people know more. I do read a awful a lot of posts. Reading to what everyone says, in fact if you met me in real life, i normally talk more then i listen. So yeah, i read a lot more then i type up. (imo pretty wierd if you ask me).

 

I believe every small variation of something has its specific purpose. Within that specific purpose is the reason you might pursue such things. I believe you can't know, with the inner until you've tried not one side but both sides. In fact I very strongly advocate that everyone should try not one way but both ways. To learn what both have to offer. One might be much less or often times much different then another. But if you disagree with one way of meditation you must have the formal education in that specific meditation and come out with a high ability to say why you dis like it. You can dis like it but then at least you understand its specific purpose. This doesn't just go for meditation this also goes for different fighting techniques within a form or different uses of Tai Chi is another example. That being said

 

I want to say I have no experience with buddhist teachings. Other then directing Yi, or my mind's intent ethical things. I automatically feel threatened but i also feel i lost my goal or can not see with inner insight the things that bound me from growing. Yet I do not try to do bad things purposely. I do often try to continuously resist against falling into the losing side of bad things from effecting me (to stop to spiritually grow, or stop me along my path, or even said to keep me from seeking to absorb into the Tao.)

 

I can clearly tell you while absorbing into the tao to attain higher levels (only done with your self bring "In the Now" or present) that when you learn to, shall i say wield for a lack of a better word, wield the ability overcome you start to adherently follow the ethical rights so to speak. I am directly correlating this to meaning the Eight Fold Path.

 

I would encourage anyone in disagreement or even in agreements to this being purely Taoism to reeducate me honestly... I publically post these things to tell you guys to help others understand and hopefully so every once in a while I may in also in return learn something from others.

 

It the higher levels Taoism (which i haven't reached) I've read and heard things that have great wisdom and insight to how things truly work. This is the inner sight from the Niwan (third eye) when you can see things on the plane of the Tao.

 

So once again i haven't taken the buddhist path. I know little of it... and what it brings but i think your understanding between Taoist path is slightly jaded forestofsouls.

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I've been told by a trustworthy master that one's ability or inability to assume the full lotus position is karmically determined, and that one's inability to sit in full lotus indicates a karmic load heavier than otherwise. If someone can't do it and keeps practicing to make oneself able to do it, the pain and endurance, the dedication and courage, dissipate adverse karma in direct proportion to the amount of pain, endurance, dedication and courage invested into mastering the pose.

Ive also read stories of people releasing some karma and then suddenly was able to sit full lotus effortlessly(ofcourse not without practicing first). I thought this was just some religious mumbo jumbo, but maby there might be something to it.

 

Here is a great article written by drew on the purpose of the full lotus: http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/162-Yo...psychology.html

Hahaha, great title!

 

Well, the full lotus is similar in this respect. There's no other position for the human bodymind that can spell out (nonverbally) whether you are centered and balanced. "Thinking" in the head (or 'non-thinking' for that matter, which is still an in-the-head activity even if it's an inactivity) that one is centered and balanced is common, and commonly self-deceptive; full lotus reveals the truth.

Like Drew says; you cant fake the full lotus!

 

Thanks for all these advice and information Taomeow. I will go now and practicepracticepractice.

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The benefits..........................Practice, practice, practice... <_<

That is encouraging, thank you :)

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Most Buddhist teachers would strongly disagree with this statement, and see it as an attachment or clinging to form. It may depend on the type of mediation and what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to increase, refine, or purify inner energies, perhaps there is a point. But if you're building awareness and insight, then this is obviously not the case. I think perhaps this is a fundamental difference between Buddhist and Taoist approaches: Buddhism doesn't teach liberation by attaining, increasing, or getting--- it liberates through insight and wisdom. How to get insight and wisdom? Ethical conduct and building strong concentration. Then one can see reality for oneself. It doesn't matter if you have one legs or two, if you're a hunchback or paralyzed, you can practice ethical behavior, concentrate the mind, and develop wisdom.

Chuang Tzu would likely disagree as well. He liked to tell stories about the benefits of the mangled. Other Taoist stories likewise touted the benefits of disability. Much of the mystique of the full lotus likely comes from the same place that most "orientalism" comes from. After all, zen practitioners favor the zazen pose and they have just as much validity as the yogis (where the full lotus came from) and the sects of Taoism etc that later adopted it (when buddhism invaded).

 

Please keep in mind everyone that the full lotus (despite whatever claims are made about karma) can damage the knees if not done PROPERLY and with care. If there are pre-existing hip or knee problems get help from an experienced (and preferably licensed) professional. Not everyone claiming to be an expert (no matter how "wonderful" their "presence" or "chi" may feel) is trustworthy. Please pay attention to simple physiology.

Edited by Taoist81

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The two main blockages, as qigong master Chunyi Lin teaches, are emotions and nutrition.

 

So for full-lotus I can sit in it indefinitely as long as the emotional energy is flowing in and OUT -

 

If I eat too much food and don't get the energy out of my body then it stays as lower emotional electrochemical energy instead of being "vortexed" into bliss-light. The strong yin energy outside of my body sucks out, and more easily, transduces my food energy, so that the yin energy receives my yang bliss-light.

 

This is real stuff. So if you have say 5 real, what I call "O at a D" -- sending bliss-light into someone which then pulls up my yin electrochemical energy, so that a mutual climax occurs, this creates REAL LOVE.

 

Betrand Russell in his book "Meditation and Logic" (or something close to that) states that meditation is too emotional.

 

Actually this isn't accurate. The bliss-light of the heart is just the "overexcitement" -- the dissipation of "vitality" or chi that the book Taoist Yoga warns about so much.

 

The source of the bliss-light is ESSENTIAL NATURE "behind" the heart-mind -- or female formless awareness.

 

So if too much food is eaten and therefore too much overexcitement is created then this, enabling 5 "O at a Ds" with one individual -- this actually creates a

 

REAL BROKEN HEART.

 

I've gotten this broken heart emotional several times this year. It's deeper than sadness (lung energy).

 

It takes a few days to recover from a broken heart but sometimes this is expressed as real crying in meditation -- it's a cleansing experience actually.

 

The point is that the CORPOREAL SPIRIT -- the element of metal, the lung energy, overcomes sadness only when passion or overexcitement of the heart is subdued. This is the secret of alchemy, detailed again in "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality."

 

Consciousness is beyond all emotion or energy. So we just keep sitting in full-lotus and the true broken heart -- the true deep sadness -- resonates back to it's source.

 

Tsung Tsai talks about this in George Crane's Bones of the Master: A Journey to Secret Mongolia (2000) book. Ch'an master Tsung Tsai says the true role of a Ch'an Master is too work through the deep sadness of the world, to engage with it and transform it.

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Drew Hempel I've read lots and lots of posts you've made no matter how long they are but my questions eariler asked on this forum is still unanswered. I still do have more to read from what you wrote, but if you could find the time to answer the questions. I could have missed the answers when it was inadvertently explained.

 

 

The two main blockages, as qigong master Chunyi Lin teaches, are emotions and nutrition.

 

So for full-lotus I can sit in it indefinitely as long as the emotional energy is flowing in and OUT -

 

If I eat too much food and don't get the energy out of my body then it stays as lower emotional electrochemical energy instead of being "vortexed" into bliss-light. The strong yin energy outside of my body sucks out, and more easily, transduces my food energy, so that the yin energy receives my yang bliss-light.

 

This is real stuff. So if you have say 5 real, what I call "O at a D" -- sending bliss-light into someone which then pulls up my yin electrochemical energy, so that a mutual climax occurs, this creates REAL LOVE.

 

Betrand Russell in his book "Meditation and Logic" (or something close to that) states that meditation is too emotional.

 

Actually this isn't accurate. The bliss-light of the heart is just the "overexcitement" -- the dissipation of "vitality" or chi that the book Taoist Yoga warns about so much.

 

The source of the bliss-light is ESSENTIAL NATURE "behind" the heart-mind -- or female formless awareness.

 

So if too much food is eaten and therefore too much overexcitement is created then this, enabling 5 "O at a Ds" with one individual -- this actually creates a

 

REAL BROKEN HEART.

 

I've gotten this broken heart emotional several times this year. It's deeper than sadness (lung energy).

 

It takes a few days to recover from a broken heart but sometimes this is expressed as real crying in meditation -- it's a cleansing experience actually.

 

The point is that the CORPOREAL SPIRIT -- the element of metal, the lung energy, overcomes sadness only when passion or overexcitement of the heart is subdued. This is the secret of alchemy, detailed again in "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality."

 

Consciousness is beyond all emotion or energy. So we just keep sitting in full-lotus and the true broken heart -- the true deep sadness -- resonates back to it's source.

 

Tsung Tsai talks about this in George Crane's Bones of the Master: A Journey to Secret Mongolia (2000) book. Ch'an master Tsung Tsai says the true role of a Ch'an Master is too work through the deep sadness of the world, to engage with it and transform it.

 

 

I very much enjoyed this last post. Though it doesn't tell us or me how to overcome it. Thanks for suggesting a book about it might be interesting. Does it actually teach you how to overcome the true broken heart? I would think that would be very wise information.

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I've been dealing with that for the last bunch of months...if she wasnt my best friend I would have plain stopped seeing her long ago. At times its felt like its given me mild hypertension.

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