The belief in a world made of Matter

[Jeff]

The point being, "opting" be a ruler sage in an dream world is no freedom. Just being, presence, is.

I don't mean this in a snarky way.

This will make things clearer I think --https://youtu.be/df9YPTe14nU

If you didnt mean it in a snarky way, then what was your intent with the OP where you simply post a video and then call out two forum members with no explanation?

[Marblehead]

Bishop Berkeley 1685 -1753

 

Even within his religion his ideas are all wrong.

[Marblehead]

If you didnt mean it in a snarky way, then what was your intent with the OP where you simply post a video and then call out two forum members with no explanation?

 

Seems to me you two are talking "at" each other instead of "with" each other.

[dwai]

If you didnt mean it in a snarky way, then what was your intent with the OP where you simply post a video and then call out two forum members with no explanation?

It was posted in the moment, assuming you would know what I meant. Sometimes I just assume people can read my mind

 

My apologies if I offended you.

[C T]

If you didnt mean it in a snarky way, then what was your intent with the OP where you simply post a video and then call out two forum members with no explanation?

Dwai was probably reflecting on the conversations the three of you were engaged in when he opened this thread. Nothing alarming, is there? 

 

Its none of my business. Just offering perspective. 

[Jeff]

It was posted in the moment, assuming you would know what I meant. Sometimes I just assume people can read my mind

My apologies if I offended you.

So does that mean you wanted to discuss or debate your posted video?

 

Also, given your above response regarding a "ruler immortal", you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying in the past about it. A ruler immortal sees through what your video would call "matter", but also knows the inherent emptiness of and so sees through what your video calls "consciousness", hence can change or upgrade it. Such changes are not made like in some concept of a ruler god, but more as the manifestation of the needs (of cause and effect) of the universe. In essence, a ruler immortal embodies that "upgrade" to help all sentient beings. As the end of Tao Te Ching 28 states...

 

...

Being the valley of the universe,

Ever true and resourceful,

Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful.

When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.

Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

 

The hopes and needs of the universe is what defines and carves the "block" so it can become useful. Not any personal desire.

[Jeff]

Dwai was probably reflecting on the conversations the three of you were engaged in when he opened this thread. Nothing alarming, is there? 

 

Its none of my business. Just offering perspective.

 

Makes sense. And I was not offended, but Dwai brought up the snarky way comment, so I thought I would ask.

 

So then did you see the OP as sort of throwing down the gauntlet (with the video) to restart a past thread discussion?

[Apech]

Even within his religion his ideas are all wrong.

 

 

 

Really how so?

[3bob]

"no mind" is a pointer term (with dubious connotation imo) since mind can not know it...so one could insert many other far out pointer terms within those quotation marks - that have advantages or disadvantages related to them.

[silent thunder]

This talk of what it means to be solid and 'real', reminds me of the Tesla quote:

 

"if you want to pierce the mysteries of the universe, think in terms of resonance, vibration and frequency."

 

any more, the notion of solid is pure illusion to me...

 

that said...  it's amazing how much it hurts, when I smash the vibrations of my non solid hand, with the frequencies of a non solid hammer.

[Brian]

This talk of what it means to be solid and 'real', reminds me of the Tesla quote:

 

"if you want to pierce the mysteries of the universe, think in terms of resonance, vibration and frequency."

 

any more, the notion of solid is pure illusion to me...

 

that said... it's amazing how much it hurts, when I smash the vibrations of my non solid hand, with the frequencies of a non solid hammer.

Indeed! Both real and unreal.

 

People who insist on pure materialism, I counter with quantum electrodynamics. Those who become trapped in the illusory, I invite to kick a large rock...

 

[3bob]

you guys are making me think of dental root canals gone wrong! 

 

(but it's all just in the mind, )

Edited April 22, 2017 by 3bob

[Brian]

you guys are making me think of dental root canals gone wrong!

 

(but it's all just in the mind, )

In the mind, and in nerve endings...

[Marblehead]

Really how so?

 

Hi Apech.  Please bear with me on this.

 

Christian Bible, King James version, Genesis, Chapter I

 

 

 

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

Then finally, man is created.

 

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

Everything in verse 1 - 25 happened before there was man to consciously acknowledge their existence.  Heaven and Earth and all the features, plants, and animals didn't need man at all. 

 

But then God creates man.  What a screw-up that was.

[dwai]

So does that mean you wanted to discuss or debate your posted video?

 

Also, given your above response regarding a "ruler immortal", you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying in the past about it. A ruler immortal sees through what your video would call "matter", but also knows the inherent emptiness of and so sees through what your video calls "consciousness", hence can change or upgrade it. Such changes are not made like in some concept of a ruler god, but more as the manifestation of the needs (of cause and effect) of the universe. In essence, a ruler immortal embodies that "upgrade" to help all sentient beings. As the end of Tao Te Ching 28 states...

 

...

Being the valley of the universe,

Ever true and resourceful,

Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful.

When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.

Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

 

The hopes and needs of the universe is what defines and carves the "block" so it can become useful. Not any personal desire.

There are neither hopes nor needs of the absolute nondual. Needs and hopes are predicated by thought.

 

There can not be any "seeing through" consciousness. Because consciousness is not a thing to be seen through. If one chooses to bend space and time, their "choice" is predicated by thought and perception, thereby a projected illusion. That, imho, is not liberation. That is akin to lucid dreaming, where one becomes aware of dream and can control the elements in the dream. Liberation is akin to waking up from a dream (in this case, waking up from the waking dream of the universe).

 

That's all I wanted to share with you, as this point seemed Unresolved

[cold]

But what about the tree that fell...

[3bob]

 the tree that fell was split open after coming in contact with my skull.

[cold]

Ouch!

At least the worms got some food?

The leaves...

And a robin ate the worm...

And an owl fed robin to its young...

[dwai]

But what about the tree that fell...

Who witnessed it? Did the tree fall outside your experience?

 

If you didn't see it, someone told you. If so, where did that experience take place?

 

Or did you read about the tree that fell in a forest? Where did that experience occur?

 

How would you be able to know, without being conscious?

 

Nothing in this material universe exists outside the realm of our consciousness. There are of course things we "know", and then those we "don't know". But that which is not known, becomes known when our concsicouness shines on it. Without consciousness, there is no existence of independent objects. Objects only exist in our consciousness. And that existence is a phenomenon in our experience. Anything we "know" is a result of perception (any or all of the senses).

 

The perceptions and conceptions are thoughts. They happen in our mind. The mind itself is empty without these objects. That emptiness (where there is no object) is pure consciousness.

 

This consciousness is that which causes us to see, feel, think, etc.

 

We take for granted that the universe exists whether or not we do. But there is no way to know for sure without consciousness. So we believe it exists, which is really a matter of faith.

 

One might argue, "well people die and the world still exists". I would ask the questioner, "how would YOU know? Once you die? The world and also the person who died, is part of your conscious experience. There is no way to know for sure without your consciousness"...

Edited April 22, 2017 by dwai

[cold]

It was all live on CNN, or was it Memorex?

[Jeff]

There are neither hopes nor needs of the absolute nondual. Needs and hopes are predicated by thought.

There can not be any "seeing through" consciousness. Because consciousness is not a thing to be seen through. If one chooses to bend space and time, their "choice" is predicated by thought and perception, thereby a projected illusion. That, imho, is not liberation. That is akin to lucid dreaming, where one becomes aware of dream and can control the elements in the dream. Liberation is akin to waking up from a dream (in this case, waking up from the waking dream of the universe).

That's all I wanted to share with you, as this point seemed Unresolved

At a micro level, the difference in our views can be simplified to sentient beings or not. You do not have any in your view, I do. At a macro level, you have an ultimate permanent Brahman thing that everything ceases into, I do not.

 

Simple as that.

 

But, the universe itself is like a virtual video game, on that we can probably get pretty close. Which is why I didn't get at all your world of matter concept being directed at me.

[dwai]

It was all live on CNN, or was it Memorex?

First hand, second hand or third hand, the knowledge still is in your consciousness

[cold]

Is that like if its on the internet its got to be true?

[AussieTrees]

Matter exist independent of our minds.

Sure we perceive our world with use of the mind.

Eons before the mind,matter existed,otherwise,who was born where?

 

It is an interesting circle of logic and awareness.

matter does have an illusory feel to it,have not quite worked out the Houdini performance.

 

Does that put us back in the matrix looking for "glitches"?

[Michael Sternbach]

Matter does exist. But our understanding of its nature is quite limited. Which influences how we interact with it.