juan

Outsider's doubts

74 posts in this topic

I’ve seen some trouble arising and I took some days to reflect upon it and decide what to do. The main trouble I perceived was, of course, this post:

 

This cannot be repeated enough.  Not only with yidam practices, but throughout many discussions we find people using outliers to describe or insult systems, when they are far from the norms

 

With the likes of other DBs.

 

My first reaction was preparing my farewell post and deleting my offensive content. The last thing I want is offending, much less insulting anyone. It was obvious that the attack/complaint was not addressed directly against me, but I saw myself perceived as “used” to be the aider and abettor. And this post opened the easy way out to walk away.

 

But in the meantime some other posts arrived and changed my opinion. After reading them (thank you all), now I think is better trying to keep this thread up. New contributions are focusing and balancing the conversation, leading to the kind of talk I find more useful to clarify this outsider’s doubts. On top of that, although thinking that this may also clarify others’ doubts is surely excessive, still I can’t avoid some feeling of responsibility.

 

But in order to continue the conversation I have to settle some problems first. This may require some kind of stepping back to see where we are. 

 

First problem is that I don’t want insulting anyone, whether actively or passively. Asking this kind of questions is not easy for me, but if I suspect they may raise these negative feelings, it becomes impossible.

 

Second, the “complaining” posts showed that they were only the tip of an iceberg of older confrontations. I have neither the right nor the inclination to meddle in affairs that are not mine, but the arguments used in this confrontation are quite relevant to this thread.

 

Last (and least, but I would also like closing this third issue): my silly digression. So this post is going to be difficult to write and surely too long to read. I apologize for that.

 

This throws me back to the questions I asked when I started this thread:

1 - Is this exchange of experiences possible? Is it worth?

2 – Is there a common area where we can talk about this stuff in an objective way, in plain language, without dogmatisms and biasing due to each one’s origins?

 

Point 1 is important. If the answer is no, then this new phase of the thread is worthless. We are all wasting our time, or even worse, letting freaky ideas settling into our mind. This is what I perceived in the following posts:

 

As someone who actually does Buddhist yidam practice - I would say it is very misleading to pick and trade quotes from various unrelated sources and different systems to try to arrive at an understanding.

 

I like the above posts, but I'm always leery with anything that says join my method and you gain powers and your problems disappear.  I get the feelin, you change, handle things better and wiser, but problems.. same old same old. 

 

No richer, no stronger, no fantastic magic, but you get better at getting out of the way, especially of yourself. 

 

The first post was liked by Jeff, who all the time was (and is) patiently answering my questions. Now I see even more value in Jeff’s patience, as he also thinks that this hardly will take me to an understanding. Thanks again Jeff. :)

 

I absolutely agree with the second post, in what it says about expectations. But the words “join my method” point also to a different concern, as they convey the idea of someone “picking and trading quotes from various unrelated sources and different systems” and then “selling” his magic concoction as “his method”. If this is what thelerner meant, I fully share his concern.

 

But IMO, what I am trying to do here is a different business. I don’t believe that I will arrive with this conversation to a magic concoction that will solve all my problems. And if I found it, I could never claim it is a “method”. What I am trying to do is just understanding techniques and procedures from various unrelated sources and different systems, seeing how they fit to my experience and, if I am able to find a “translation” between these fuzzy words and what I feel, I hope they may help me to know where I am and point to possible ways of progress.

 

This is what is happening in my conversation with Jeff, and hope will continue and balance as new friends step in. It is quite obvious that I will never understand Jeff 100%; I think the posts show quite well where the limits of my comprehension are. But still we are opening a common area of understanding. Being able to include in this common area as many different viewpoints as possible would be the closest to what I pointed in my 2nd question. And a good opportunity for all to express their disagreement with specific and not blanket arguments. At least to let me know what is that they consider insulting so I can speak with the confidence not to be insulting anyone.

 

Luckily enough, I can show an example of the kind of language that makes me resonate, a couple posts behind. Still with the scent that denotes his origins, and I like it, but far more comprehensible to me. Thanks Pilgrim for all your posts, I appreciate them very much. You speak the closest to a lingua franca that I’ve found yet.

 

Hope this helps settling the first two issues I mentioned. I will continue trying to close my digression and going back to the main conversation. But this post is already too dense, so I will stop here.

 

Thank you all for reading. Double thanks if you reached here!! :)

juan

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I’ve seen some trouble arising and I took some days to reflect upon it and decide what to do. The main trouble I perceived was, of course, this post:

 

 

With the likes of other DBs.

 

My first reaction was preparing my farewell post and deleting my offensive content. The last thing I want is offending, much less insulting anyone. It was obvious that the attack/complaint was not addressed directly against me, but I saw myself perceived as “used” to be the aider and abettor. And this post opened the easy way out to walk away.

 

But in the meantime some other posts arrived and changed my opinion. After reading them (thank you all), now I think is better trying to keep this thread up. New contributions are focusing and balancing the conversation, leading to the kind of talk I find more useful to clarify this outsider’s doubts. On top of that, although thinking that this may also clarify others’ doubts is surely excessive, still I can’t avoid some feeling of responsibility.

 

But in order to continue the conversation I have to settle some problems first. This may require some kind of stepping back to see where we are.

 

First problem is that I don’t want insulting anyone, whether actively or passively. Asking this kind of questions is not easy for me, but if I suspect they may raise these negative feelings, it becomes impossible.

 

Second, the “complaining” posts showed that they were only the tip of an iceberg of older confrontations. I have neither the right nor the inclination to meddle in affairs that are not mine, but the arguments used in this confrontation are quite relevant to this thread.

 

Last (and least, but I would also like closing this third issue): my silly digression. So this post is going to be difficult to write and surely too long to read. I apologize for that.

 

This throws me back to the questions I asked when I started this thread:

1 - Is this exchange of experiences possible? Is it worth?

2 – Is there a common area where we can talk about this stuff in an objective way, in plain language, without dogmatisms and biasing due to each one’s origins?

 

Point 1 is important. If the answer is no, then this new phase of the thread is worthless. We are all wasting our time, or even worse, letting freaky ideas settling into our mind. This is what I perceived in the following posts:

 

 

 

The first post was liked by Jeff, who all the time was (and is) patiently answering my questions. Now I see even more value in Jeff’s patience, as he also thinks that this hardly will take me to an understanding. Thanks again Jeff. :)

 

I absolutely agree with the second post, in what it says about expectations. But the words “join my method” point also to a different concern, as they convey the idea of someone “picking and trading quotes from various unrelated sources and different systems” and then “selling” his magic concoction as “his method”. If this is what thelerner meant, I fully share his concern.

 

But IMO, what I am trying to do here is a different business. I don’t believe that I will arrive with this conversation to a magic concoction that will solve all my problems. And if I found it, I could never claim it is a “method”. What I am trying to do is just understanding techniques and procedures from various unrelated sources and different systems, seeing how they fit to my experience and, if I am able to find a “translation” between these fuzzy words and what I feel, I hope they may help me to know where I am and point to possible ways of progress.

 

This is what is happening in my conversation with Jeff, and hope will continue and balance as new friends step in. It is quite obvious that I will never understand Jeff 100%; I think the posts show quite well where the limits of my comprehension are. But still we are opening a common area of understanding. Being able to include in this common area as many different viewpoints as possible would be the closest to what I pointed in my 2nd question. And a good opportunity for all to express their disagreement with specific and not blanket arguments. At least to let me know what is that they consider insulting so I can speak with the confidence not to be insulting anyone.

 

Luckily enough, I can show an example of the kind of language that makes me resonate, a couple posts behind. Still with the scent that denotes his origins, and I like it, but far more comprehensible to me. Thanks Pilgrim for all your posts, I appreciate them very much. You speak the closest to a lingua franca that I’ve found yet.

 

Hope this helps settling the first two issues I mentioned. I will continue trying to close my digression and going back to the main conversation. But this post is already too dense, so I will stop here.

 

Thank you all for reading. Double thanks if you reached here!! :)

juan

I am sorry, juan, that your thread got caught up in a running skirmish. The Newcomer Corner is supposed to be something of a "safe zone" free from the harshness which sometimes appears on the forum but it doesn't always work out that way, unfortunately.

 

To answer your specific questions...

 

Yes, the exchange of experiences is possible but doesn't always work as smoothly as one might hope, and it isn't possible wth everyone all the time. It is definitely a worthwhile pursuit, however, especially if you bear in mind that it isn't always possible (or necessarily desirable) to remove subjectivity from the process. Our experiences are personal, you see, and that makes them subjective. We can try to use neutral or objective language but the underlying topics are profoundly personal if they are the narrator's own experiences.

 

Make sense?

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Double thanks if you reached here!! :)

juan

 

I got to the end, and I do appreciate the candor and goodwill of your post.  I am glad that you posted it, and hope that will stay around here on Dao Bums.

 

ZYD

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1 - Is this exchange of experiences possible? Is it worth?

2 – Is there a common area where we can talk about this stuff in an objective way, in plain language, without dogmatisms and biasing due to each one’s origins?

 

 

#1. Yes it is worth while, The exchange is possible if one is sharing from their heart then you will feel it just the same as when someone is rough in a reply.

 

#2. I came from a state of none preference, then things happened, then I had to educate myself, to discover what was going on. I was so reluctant to contaminate my pure original self with this ism or that. An attempt was made to stay purely objective and create my own system in this way retain the original way seeking mind free of belief or subconscious contamination.

 

This succeeded beyond my wildest expectations but without education in my ignorance I thought I had failed.

 

As time went on something eventually had to be done and pride and desire to stay pristine not owned by any ism had to be sacrificed. Answers were found in the Dogmatic Rigid system of Kriya Yoga.

 

It was not the Dogmatic part that did the trick though but when in Rome.... Along the way the terminology was adopted for the sake of communication and comprehension. The terminology and the system of thought bolstered by verification of doing is still in place.

 

Still in place because by self effort the very things discussed in the dogmatic tradition have come to pass the value therein proven.

 

The respect for others and the desire not to be contaminated by Dogmatic limitation is also still in place.

 

There are many paths to the summit of a mountain we all make our way in our own unique way and that needs to be respected regardless of approach. The way that has worked for me up till this point may not be the way for others and there are yet ways left to discover.

 

So to answer your question no, it is not always possible to completely weed out the dogmatic origins nor is it necessary, resistance to dogmatic patterns is in itself dogmatic. The Dogmatic Approach of the one attempting to stand out as the shining individual. pure, uncontaminated, unconditioned.

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Hi Juan,

 

I see abosulting nothing wrong with asking questions and looking for answers. Also, to me sharing actual personal experience is more useful than debating the meaning of an old book.

 

Specifically, my liking of the post regarding mixing and matching yidam stuff, relates to the perspective that in my opinion most people have a mistaken understanding about true deity practices. Translations tell people to visualize some being like it is some imaginary mental process, rather than actually connecting to the being. In actual deity practices, it is more like the energy of the being manifests in your local mind space. Any seeing or image should be more an arising as your mind tends to naturally give form to the overwhelming energy flows. The challenge is that people attempt such activities without the support of a guru/teacher when they do not yet have the mental clarity to actually do such practices.

 

Also, always feel free to ask me to try again if you find my descriptions confusing. :)

 

Best,

Jeff

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My take on it is simply not to concern yourself with controlling energy in any specific way.  It is profoundly superior to learn to calm down your mind and anchor your consciousness in quiet and openness than to move feeling around your body in various ways.   If you don't achieve quiet first, moving energy will have no use at all, and you will probably damage yourself.

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My take on it is simply not to concern yourself with controlling energy in any specific way.  It is profoundly superior to learn to calm down your mind and anchor your consciousness in quiet and openness than to move feeling around your body in various ways.   If you don't achieve quiet first, moving energy will have no use at all, and you will probably damage yourself.

 

I am of the same opinion. Controlling and moving energy without achieving quietness could damage yourself.

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Profoundly superior?

 

According to who?

 

Do you realize that bliss and quietness / openness / stillness are one?

 

Do you realize that when stillness of mind is sufficient the energy of Bliss will come and un-directed and not having familiarity with it, it can cause damage.

 

Both of these seemingly different things are like two sides of the same coin. When bliss energy reaches its peak of ones ability to entertain as it hits obstructions the result is a consciousness returning from deep samadhi states anchored in profound stillness.

 

If one practices something as simple as sitting zen or Zazen when the mind becomes still enough and calmly anchored that the energy of bliss will come.

 

There can be debilitating injuries from this if sufficient preparation to gently clear the channels is not done.

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Hi

 

Juan

 

I like your thread

 

Comfortable

 

I don't like schools, too.

 

I like to practice in freedom

 

No dogma,no school, totally free

 

Chakras vs dan tian

 

We can see many pattern photos of chakras

 

But most of people only can see light colors

 

Because there are two stages of light

 

First stage, people can only see different color of light in different sizes of circle

 

The second stage , very few people can reach here, in the emptiness, you can see the patterns of light just like the patterns of chakras

 

There are two layers of light

 

If you can see both, you will no doubt about everything.

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Thank you all for your helpful responses. Rough or kind; the important thing is the information and not the format. And most of the time, the most valuable answers are the ones that make me stepping back, reviewing my whole approach and recognizing the fragility of some of my previous assumptions. So thank you all again.

 

This is an example of those valuable, challenging responses. In kind format, Pilgrim says this:

 

...something eventually had to be done and pride and desire to stay pristine not owned by any ism had to be sacrificed. Answers were found in the Dogmatic Rigid system of Kriya Yoga.

 

...resistance to dogmatic patterns is in itself dogmatic. The Dogmatic Approach of the one attempting to stand out as the shining individual. pure, uncontaminated, unconditioned.

 

Dogmatic is a nasty word and I apologize for introducing this term in the conversation. Obviously it conveys a negative opinion, and sometimes it is hard to define where the limits of this negative opinion are. Sorry if the concept spread further than I intended.

 

Perceiving my quest as an attempt to stand out as the shining individual has been quite instructive to me, and I thank Pilgrim for sharing his perspective. I have to reflect upon my motivations, and that’s always an issue, but I can’t avoid feeling that the overall post may be summarized with the Three Conclusive Words: “Find a master”. And this would close all discussion.

 

But at the beginning of the same post, I can read that the exchange of experiences is possible and worth. To me, this sounds somewhat contradictory with the “find a master” concept, so I have to figure out where one concept ends and the other begins in order to find an accepted, open arena for discussion.

 

There are a number of issues open, but I will try testing these borders talking about the ideas/terms “quiet mind” and “energy”, which, I think, are common to all traditions and not as complex and controversial as “the nature of chakras” or “gender issues”.

 

But still I perceive this apparent dichotomy as a kind of chicken and egg puzzle. IMHO it may depend on where one starts, and it seems that most people start their practices (yoga, qigong, whatever) without having a previous feeling of this thing called “energy”. I’ve seen physical procedures (asanas, bandhas, tai-chi forms etc.), which seem to be designed with the intention to awake, let’s say “by brute force” (as compared to other methods) this “energy”. So (I think, please confirm or reject) the practitioner feels nothing at the beginning, but will eventually perceive this “energy”.

 

As I understand it, these practices run in parallel, at least in Yoga, with the so-called meditation practices. You focus on your breath, in a mantra, etc. in order to “quiet the mind”. And, IMO, there is a clear prevalence of the latter practice vs the former, as the standard, automatic response when someone speaks about what we could call “energy movements” is a wave of caveats saying that this is dangerous, as you have to “still the mind” previously. Close examples:

 

If you don't achieve quiet first, moving energy will have no use at all, and you will probably damage yourself.

 

Controlling and moving energy without achieving quietness could damage yourself.

 

There can be debilitating injuries from this if sufficient preparation to gently clear the channels is not done. 

 

So what to do when you already feel this “energy”, whether spontaneously or after some practice? When can you say OK, my mind is still and my channels are purified so I can handle this “energy” without being reckless? Is this a question to be answered by a master only? Is there nothing inside the practitioner to warn him if something exceeds some safety limits?

 

But what specially intrigues me is the feeling of mutual feedback between “energy” and “quiet mind”. When I tried meditation focusing on my breath, I quickly discovered that, in order to quiet the mind, the “energy” was a far more effective attractor than breath. So what’s the problem if you just use this “energy” as meditation object? They seemed to be helping each other, as the more energy you feel the more silent is your mind and vice versa. I wish I had found at that time something like this (thanks again, Pilgrim):

 

The only way to bring mind to the point of stillness and one pointed-ness is to give mind something it desires above all else then the mind will willingly focus upon that to the exclusion of all else.

 

That something else is bliss.

 

When mind becomes grasping trying to grasp bliss, bliss recedes.

 

Mind swiftly learns that to have bliss it must let go again and again and quit clinging then bliss comes even more strongly.

 

I cannot describe with better words what I have experienced these last years. The results, in terms of my experiences with “energy” were accounted in former posts. So what to do now? Do I have to stop and pass some kind of evaluation in order not to harm myself? Go back to just feeling the breath in my nose?

 

Harmful or not, I still wonder about the meaning of this mutual feedback. It feels like “energy” and “mind”, or at least “monkey mind”, were antagonistic agents, so the more “energy” the less monkey mind, until eventually, mind (or one of the concepts behind the word “mind”) just disappears. Like some kind of distributed brain (thoughtless conscience) taking over the “standard” brain (cortex - thoughts). BTW “energy” somehow settles down, or maybe you just get used to it.

 

This quote, again from Pilgrim, makes me resonate:

 

Do you realize that bliss and quietness / openness / stillness are one?

Do you realize that when stillness of mind is sufficient the energy of Bliss will come and un-directed and not having familiarity with it, it can cause damage.

Both of these seemingly different things are like two sides of the same coin. When bliss energy reaches its peak of ones ability to entertain as it hits obstructions the result is a consciousness returning from deep samadhi states anchored in profound stillness.
 

 

I quite agree with (or perceive as right) the first and the last paragraphs. But the second worries me a little bit. So could “surges” of bliss happen beyond your control when stillness of mind is sufficient? IME, bliss grows at the expenses of thoughts and vice versa, so in order to stop bliss I had just to let some thought enter into my attention. Kinda safety mechanism. Please let me know your opinion on this, surely optimistic, theory. 

Edited by juan
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On the energy or quiet mind (and concerns around somehow hurting yourself), maybe think about it as kind of opposite sides of the spectrum. With feeling energy as more heart based and mental clarity being more mind based on the two sides. While at higher levels, it is realized that they are both two sides of the same coin, people generally have a natural leaning one way or the other. It is this natural leaning that can cause people to resonate with different types of paths.

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Perceiving my quest as an attempt to stand out as the shining individual has been quite instructive to me, and I thank Pilgrim for sharing his perspective. I have to reflect upon my motivations, and that’s always an issue, but I can’t avoid feeling that the overall post may be summarized with the Three Conclusive Words: “Find a master”. And this would close all discussion.

Do not even try.

 

The obstructions you find by contacting them are your stored Karma, it is condensed energy think of it as a database of sorts, thoughts,feelings, preferences,memories long forgotten, lives once lived and forgotten even in this current incarnation.

 

Do you recall your diapers getting changed and the look on the persons face doing it or how much better it felt to be clean? No of course not but the kindness of another taking care of you is imprinted.

 

When you reach the stage you are at energy can be used to gently purify and dissolve this Karma commonly called obstructions because they are in the way.

 

The process of dissolving this Karma is not something to be taken lightly, it tampers with your very sense identity on many levels and will effect your life. One also comes to realize the self because when the components of a presumed identity keep changing little by little the self becomes known by the gaps left.

 

Your Karma is your truest master.

 

The old saying when the student is ready the master will appear is true as in the sense above as well as in literal meaning.

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But at the beginning of the same post, I can read that the exchange of experiences is possible and worth. To me, this sounds somewhat contradictory with the “find a master” concept, so I have to figure out where one concept ends and the other begins in order to find an accepted, open arena for discussion.

When someone replies to another sharing there experiences, the worth is for both parties. The one sharing is unspooling there Karma in the sense of stored patterns of living so it does not become an obstruction.

 

The one reading will either reject accept or ponder even at a later date and come realizations unique to themselves.

 

Sharing is an act of love, and that communicates in a way that words alone may not. The love goes something like this were I to phrase it.

 

I a sentient recognize that the mind and heart I calls mine own is no different than the apparent separate myriad others. What has come to this one of value by living, or is possible to share to one questing as this I has and still does, this I greatfully donates to all fellow sentients.

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But still I perceive this apparent dichotomy as a kind of chicken and egg puzzle. IMHO it may depend on where one starts, and it seems that most people start their practices (yoga, qigong, whatever) without having a previous feeling of this thing called “energy”. I’ve seen physical procedures (asanas, bandhas, tai-chi forms etc.), which seem to be designed with the intention to awake, let’s say “by brute force” (as compared to other methods) this “energy”. So (I think, please confirm or reject) the practitioner feels nothing at the beginning, but will eventually perceive this “energy”.

The development of awareness to perceive energy, is a common development as it is a natural one. It is the gateway to a different stage in ones awareness.

 

Sentients over time developed understanding and systems for working with it, Henry Ford had the model T it did a great job of transportation but we did not stop there. It is the same here. But at the end of the day even a Tesla performs the same function.

 

Asana and many other methods of moving energy come to one during practice. When one comes to know these wonderful things one shares by systemizing them and sharing with others.

 

If a person does not have these things come to them on there own or is given them prematurely or are doing them because of some provocative statement then they are brute forcing.

 

The he ones who have to do these things know it in their bones and it is right they should, the ones who are doing out of an idea are just wetting there toes on the way to a much larger ocean of existence.

 

I have a dear friend who felt nothing. His heart felt motivation is for liberation or Moksha, he is wealthy and well accomplished in life, a father and husband he is in his 60's. He has embraced life not run away. After decades of practices he is just now beginning to feel.

 

Where one starts has nothing to do with preference. Once one has arrived at a certain state of calm clear mind there is no division. I have always been able to feel energy but I have also always had a certain quality of stillness from birth. For myself life has been growing into both.

 

Where I got into trouble was with Still Mind practices and resulting Kundalini releases beyond my ability to know how to guide it safely as it ripped its way to the crown and above using the path of least resistance in an un-prepared vessel. There was Physical damage shown on MRI Scans.

 

Many seem to believe there is a choice.

 

There is no choice. You can not become a baby, child, a teenager nor a young adult once you have been that which proceeded later. If you incarnate 1 million more times you can not undo where you are now and you may not stay as you are in this moment either. 

 

Embrace change it comes to all.

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I quite agree with (or perceive as right) the first and the last paragraphs. But the second worries me a little bit. So could “surges” of bliss happen beyond your control when stillness of mind is sufficient? IME, bliss grows at the expenses of thoughts and vice versa, so in order to stop bliss I had just to let some thought enter into my attention. Kinda safety mechanism. Please let me know your opinion on this, surely optimistic, theory. 

Yes without preparing the way, bliss can get out of control as shared in the previous post.

 

Yes without still mind energy can cause problems mostly to the detriment of ones mental and emotional wellbeing as Karma is evaporating leaving the not self realized sentient bewildered when they are loosing their perceived self and faced with a self they know not, even in small chunks the pothole seems like a giant building devouring sink hole.

 

Each sentient comes to this crossroad many times, the answer is always the same. You have no choice now you can do nothing and let things unfold like a model t putting down the road or get in the tesla and go faster. 

 

To to go faster you must pave the road prepare the surface or the tesla will not do as well as the model t on a bumpy dirt road puttering down the lane. Sure the tesla can go fast on a bumpy dirt road but it will be a terrible ride and will get stuck in mud many times.

 

It is not a matter of either or, there will be times where dedicated daily Sadhana or spiritual practices will be done for decades and times when they will not, one has to find the temperature at which they boil, a nice simmer is best when cooking / preparing the self.

Edited by Pilgrim
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Sharing is an act of love, and that communicates in a way that words alone may not.

 

I think these words are quite fit for a day like this. May this spirit stays alive not just today but every day.

 

I feel this love in each contribution you do, so I should always tick the Thanks button. Due to this reason you see I don’t, but I thank and appreciate every contribution. From i.e. ZYD/Donald, who patiently weaved his memories to reconstruct and share the charming tale of Mojo with us, to the last visitor of this thread, sharing her visual perspective of chakras.

 

Each post opens interesting ways to explore, and hope we are able to walk them all.

 

Merry Xmas!

juan

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But what specially intrigues me is the feeling of mutual feedback between “energy” and “quiet mind”. When I tried meditation focusing on my breath, I quickly discovered that, in order to quiet the mind, the “energy” was a far more effective attractor than breath. So what’s the problem if you just use this “energy” as meditation object? They seemed to be helping each other, as the more energy you feel the more silent is your mind and vice versa. I wish I had found at that time something like this (thanks again, Pilgrim):

 

 

----------------------------------

 

This is a right way.

 

In dan dao, it is called 以鉛制汞

 

以鉛制汞 using lead to control mercury

 

Real lead means energy

 

Real mercury means focus, mind

 

 

Meditation objects always changes

 

At first, start in breath or body moving

 

Second, energy

 

Third, lights

 

Forth, Hun-dun

 

Fifth, emptiness

 

So if the energy appear, we should move our meditation object to energy

 

We should not force ourself back to breathe

 

When the light appear, we should move our meditation object to light

 

We should not force our meditation object back to energy

 

The next stages are the same

 

Our meditation object should follow the change of signal

 

At first , the signals is not easy to be discovered

 

If you don't use methods to force your meditation object in a fixed object

 

You always can find the signals

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Thank you, Awaken!

That was very helpful.

And clear!

 

I really appreciate your efforts to help us understand you better.

What I am able to understand from you, touches me.

Thank you.

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Thank you for supporting me.

 

For me, what I talk about is only one sentence.

 

應無所住而生其心

 

This sentence was told by Buddha.

 

And it touched Huineng one thousand and three hundred years ago.

 

These words made a school in the world.

 

This school is still very famous now.

 

禪宗

 

The teaching from Zhang bou duan not only daoist, but also include Buddhism.

 

I was also touched by all these ancient achievers.

 

What they tried to told us by words is very true.

 

If we give up all our desire, and keep a mirror mind.

 

Their teaching is very clear.

 

Nothing is hidden.

 

 

All the achievers are very mercy.

 

They did their best to tell us everything.

 

If we give up all the 門戶之見(the secessionism of schools), we can see the great words from many classics.

Edited by awaken
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Your answers give me a ton of things to ruminate; it will take me some time to ponder each one in due depth. With the additional problem that, as your answers shed some light here and there, my perspective changes a bit, and this change of perspective brings new meaning to words that I found meaningless before, and some of my previous questions seem not so meaningful after all.

 

I feel that the basic question for me right now is not so much “what to do” but “where I am”. But more and more I perceive that the most important question is “who/what I am”. Knowing where I am and then what to do according to my specific situation may, I think, help me find an answer to this last, disturbing question, which is mentioned in the last posts and I feel afraid to face.

 

Starting from the beginning, your posts helped me see my situation from a different perspective, and gave me some suggestions on what was wrong and how should I proceed.

 

First of all, my attitude. Due to my confusion, I was seeing all the time ”energy” and meditation as contradictory elements. Everybody seemed to say “forget energy and focus on meditation only”. But instead of following this advice, as sitting in lotus position and focusing on my breath seemed to lead nowhere, I just “played with the energy”, heedless of the danger. It was a bit odd seeing some correlation here and there between my experiences and some descriptions, but as I didn’t follow any rule, my only possible approach to the whole issue was with a mostly ludic, curious attitude.

 

This changes a lot if I understand (or want to understand) that I’m not so much off-track. That, after all, maybe I was meditating, or close to meditating, all the time. First hint came from Pilgrim, who I quoted in my last post, and confirmation came from awaken:

 

This is a right way.

In dan dao, it is called 以鉛制汞

以鉛制汞 using lead to control mercury

Real lead means energy

Real mercury means focus, mind


Meditation objects always changes

At first, start in breath or body moving

Second, energy

Third, lights

Forth, Hun-dun

Fifth, emptiness

So if the energy appear, we should move our meditation object to energy

We should not force ourself back to breathe ...

 

Thanks a lot, awaken. I’ve never seen any light, so I assume I am somewhere in the second stage. Could you recommend something to read, or give some advice, on how to proceed when in this stage?

 

Then there is my focus.

 

...Also, I would personally suggest to not worry about specific connections, like above, maybe instead think about it like you are trying to connect all of the dots. It is the "stuff" that separates the dots that are the obscurations in the first place. The "goal" is more like perfectly clear energy flow though your entire body. Or if you have experienced a "heart orgasm" with your partner, think of it more like a full body heart orgasm.

 

... the main goal is to enter inside yourself. Our road is inward NOT outward. You can not imagine how much truth is in Daeluin post!

The inward movement is not some kind of metaphor. It's real. There is an actual opening - a structure as "black hole" inside a bright "sun" disc. You may call it Kutashta if you like. You MUST pass through this structure. Thus, your inside man is born. Your "True Self", Your "real human being".

 

* my highlighting

 

My take on it is simply not to concern yourself with controlling energy in any specific way.  It is profoundly superior to learn to calm down your mind and anchor your consciousness in quiet and openness than to move feeling around your body in various ways.   If you don't achieve quiet first, moving energy will have no use at all, and you will probably damage yourself.

 

Up to now I have understood the process as an endless “purification”, that I perceived as a growing “bliss” at every node and connection. Once you find the way the first time, the rest is relatively easy, and eventually you gain perception of an “energetic” grid covering your whole body. And the “bliss” at every node and connection always grows and grows, so this process seems having no end. But now I see that this approach focuses too much in the detailed structure of my perception, neglecting the overall, diffuse flow I could also feel.

 

I have to experiment with this other approach, but I think I can already see the difference. Integrating my whole perception in a single, more diffused flow the mind is quieter, not pursuing details anymore. And it also kinda “blurs the borders” between in and out, so it could be a better approach to other techniques, as maybe “visualization”, a concept that also intrigues me and I don’t understand very much. For example, I do resonate with this:

 

...Specifically, my liking of the post regarding mixing and matching yidam stuff, relates to the perspective that in my opinion most people have a mistaken understanding about true deity practices. Translations tell people to visualize some being like it is some imaginary mental process, rather than actually connecting to the being. In actual deity practices, it is more like the energy of the being manifests in your local mind space. Any seeing or image should be more an arising as your mind tends to naturally give form to the overwhelming energy flows. The challenge is that people attempt such activities without the support of a guru/teacher when they do not yet have the mental clarity to actually do such practices.

 

I think I dimly perceive the meaning, but I’m not prepared to ask specific questions; maybe later. There is also a paused conversation concerning chakras that I would like to continue. I would also like developing ladynguma’s comments, i.e. what is in and what is out in this context, as my change of approach seems to go in the opposite way, from an excessively “inward” to a kind of “outward” aiming. Maybe in and out are just two faces of the same coin…

 

But I think it may be better commenting these posts first, as they point to what surely are the end results of the “quiet mind”:

 

....The obstructions you find by contacting them are your stored Karma, it is condensed energy think of it as a database of sorts, thoughts,feelings, preferences,memories long forgotten, lives once lived and forgotten even in this current incarnation.

 

....The process of dissolving this Karma is not something to be taken lightly, it tampers with your very sense identity on many levels and will effect your life. One also comes to realize the self because when the components of a presumed identity keep changing little by little the self becomes known by the gaps left.

 

....Many seem to believe there is a choice.

 

There is no choice. You can not become a baby, child, a teenager nor a young adult once you have been that which proceeded later.

 

....Yes without still mind energy can cause problems mostly to the detriment of ones mental and emotional wellbeing as Karma is evaporating leaving the not self realized sentient bewildered when they are loosing their perceived self and faced with a self they know not, even in small chunks the pothole seems like a giant building devouring sink hole.

 

These issues seem to be at the end, or near the end of this process, so I am not sure it’s a good idea mixing in the same discussion the grand end result with the tiny specific procedures that, I suspect, are to be used for a time and abandoned when they are not useful anymore.

 

On the other hand, my questions/doubts on “energy” issues, however subjective, have (I think) a much more experiential fundament. But when I go to this sort of issues, which IMO have more to do with conscience/perception than with “physical” experiences, it is difficult to know where experience ends and conjecture begins. This of course makes the conversation difficult, or at least slippery. But it may be worth speaking a bit about that.

 

Each one / each tradition has different explanations, but the process has to be the same for everyone. Awaken says that lead/energy controls mercury/mind, and this fits much better in my experience than the Buddhist explanation of “purification” in terms of dissolving Karma. For sure Karma is dissolved (or something happens that may be labeled with these words), but this seems to me a consequence and not a cause of this “purification”. I can’t explain my experience saying: “now this or that thought, feeling, preference, memory, is cleared, and that’s why I feel now this stronger current, this obstruction between i.e. sacrum and ming-men removed.” I simply don’t perceive any correlation.

 

I now perceive the whole process (same as Daoist practices moving energy along specific routes like the MCO) as just a sort of training in order to perceive this “energy” (lead) in your whole body. I don’t feel like connecting with gods or goddesses; my perception is that I’m just connecting with my own body (that, BTW, happens to be masculine and feminine at the same time) and the conscience that abides in it. The more and more this “energy” boils (or simmers; thanks Pilgrim) the more Karma, that I perceive as mental obstructions, is removed. IME, “lead controls mercury” and not the other way around.

 

But surely our explanations/interpretations of the mechanism are not as important as the consequences. What is the result? Energy quiets the mind, or quiet mind boosts energy, or both at the same time, but IMO the only important thing is: when the mind is quiet the components of a presumed identity keep changing little by little. And this is quite disturbing. It is like removing one by one the columns of the building that was “you” to discover that they were not supporting anything. And wonder what will be left at the end of the process, quite surely nothing.

 

But nothing is nothing. Not even benevolent gods, as gods are also our own invention. So you stay there, watching as everything dissolves, and there is no choice. Thoughts come and go, and when they go you just bath in bliss, and everything is fine, everything is good. But when they come, they come with a strange flavor of sadness and loneliness. The good thing is that this same process makes you less prone to get involved in thoughts; I watch them with more curiosity than fear, but I can’t avoid feeling that I am contemplating my own death. What I considered to be “me” is just an old garment that this new, strange “me” is wearing now, and will be discarded and forgotten.

 

This “me” abiding in a place where good and evil, love and hate are just two faces of the same coin. Where no one of our ideas will work, as ideas are the basic ingredient of the mind, and we have to leave our mind at the door. How can benevolent gods be found there? My feeling is that, if we cross to the other side, we will find only Nature. And Nature is cruel, at least according to our current concept of cruelty.

 

I would like to hear your opinion on this, especially from awaken, who seems to have a different mindset. Sorry that this is a very subjective issue, and this conversation should intend to be practical and not philosophical. But it may be good talking about the consequences at the same time as we scrutinize systems and procedures.

 

Cheers,

juan

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Posted (edited)

These are old outdated forms of seeking the Kundalini to rise. There has been now on Earth for the last several years a team of husband and wife Avatars who have brought in a unique energy called Oneness Blessing that in its latest version is now the Golden Orb Deeksha, and also Prana Deeksha. They both physically rewire the brain to produce Awakening. Anyone who now takes a 3 week course at their Oneness University in south India comes back at some level of permanent Awakening. They have 100% success rate in being able to do this. They also offer free 20 minute online Oneness Meditations daily where you just sit thre and look in the eyes of the Oneness Trainer as he does a transmission of deeksha. According to Sri Bhagavan, the Avatar, enlightenment is actually a very simple process of getting Kundalini to remain up in the brain rather than returning back down.

No amount of repeating the mantra or watching your breath is going to do it for most people. I should know, I have done the Transcendental Meditation program daily for the past 43 years and on an experimental course held by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi I was in a temporary state of enlightenment for one night. But it never happened again from his version of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. So the goal is real, but most paths are a time consuming waste of time. I do chi kung for preserving my health, I do not expect spiritual benefits from it. I do TM now for release of stress, I do not expect enlightenment from it.I do Oneness Blessing for Awakening. But I am in the one percent of the population whom the Avatar says do not feel anything from Oneness Blessing. So quite a paradox. Yet I remain on the path.

S

Edited by tao stillness

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Posted (edited)

On 22/12/2016 at 0:04 AM, Jeff said:

...in my opinion most people have a mistaken understanding about true deity practices. Translations tell people to visualize some being like it is some imaginary mental process, rather than actually connecting to the being. In actual deity practices, it is more like the energy of the being manifests in your local mind space. Any seeing or image should be more an arising as your mind tends to naturally give form to the overwhelming energy flows.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot for this, Jeff. I could not understand it at that moment but now I think I have a clearer picture.

 

My entry door to all this stuff was sex, so this was the “form” I automatically gave to all energy flows, wherever they arose. Not a visual form, but rather a “label” for the feeling. This has changed a bit, and I would like commenting my attempts, blockages and experiences in this process.

 

As an important part of my “energy practices” is sex (tantric, perhaps, but for sure physical sex with a real woman), I tended to see with disdain any attempt of creating mental imagery around this process. What for? I had the real woman and the most incredible sex, so why imagining instead of just experiencing? And when sex became bi-directional, and I felt penetrated and filled with this energy, just as women surely feel, what kind of mental imagery should I attach to these feelings? So I just focused on the feeling, even when I was on my own, never trying to wrap any visual form around it. This was a blockage.

 

But the main blockage came from my visceral hate against religions. This is surely due to the fact that I received my religious conditioning to serve the purposes, and in the midst, of a fascist dictatorship. So the concept of “God” and “praying” they poured on the child I was at that time was so poisonous and rude that I simply can’t conceive myself praying and worshipping any god, much less these Hindu- Tibetan gods with all their elaborated imagery. From this perspective, Yidam practices seemed absolutely out of my reach.

 

Anyway, I googled Yidam and read some stuff I found here and there. And I marked this idea: “the main principle is understanding that your own essence and the god’s (or guru’s) essence are indivisible.” This seemed to be a good attitude to start exploring: seeing not a god in front of me, separated from me, but sharing his/her essence with my “own”.

 

How should I dress this god? Quite naturally a feminine image was formed, for I wanted to fuse, sexually fuse, with this deity, instead of putting it on a pedestal to worship her. And this worked extremely well. The yin and yang feelings I had in physical sex came with extreme intensity. I penetrated and was penetrated at the same time, and visualization became difficult. I could see her in front of me if I focused on my yang, explosive feeling, but the simultaneous yin, implosive feeling made me also see her inside, while I was outside. Anyway, the concepts of me, she, inside and outside become doubtful and quite surely irrelevant.

 

As I feel/visualize myself fused with this deity or whatever it is, my (our) feet and toes seem to grow, collecting millions of energy streams from far away, that converge through my (our) soles (or the place where soles usually are), go up my-our legs, slam the perineum up, and finally hit in the middle of my-our belly, with overwhelming feelings. Sex is still the best form I can allocate to these feelings, but this is much more than sex. It feels as a force of Nature; it feels as Life itself. But these are just words.

 

So I felt connected, fused with this deity, from the diaphragm down. What about the heart, that seemed to be the next level? Love is usually attached to this place, and the feelings there generated, so I tried with this concept. Soon I discovered that not any love fits. Definitely not the tamed, worn, comfortable love (but still love) that settles in a couple after many years. No, this has to be the wild, innocent, unconditional love that we had once felt. And I collected all the feelings of loving and being loved from my memories, and focused on these pure feelings only, forgetting about the specific lovers that raised these feelings, and voilà. An orgasm of love traversed our chests, I felt her love pouring and exploding into my heart and my heart sending my love back to her. If I see her as a goddess, this is surely pray. And so we fused, the same as we already were from the diaphragm down, and I could visualize her in front of me, or me in front of her, but this was again difficult and irrelevant. Everything happened in a single body, be it within or without my physical boundaries. And the flavor was definitely different from sex, and I could readily attach the label of Love to it, but, again, I feel that this thing that we perceive and label as Love is just part of a much more general and pervasive force of Nature.

 

I spent some weeks in this situation, fused with my lover deity from the heart down, but still we were a monster with two heads. I was puzzled. The concept of sex was quite good for wrapping the feelings of our fusion from the diaphragm down; the concept of love fitted quite well with the feelings at the heart (even when, in both cases, the labels seemed extremely small to cover these immense feelings). But, what kind of worldly feeling could be attached to the fusion of our heads? Mutual understanding? This has a lot to do with sharing mindsets, and mindsets seem to be totally out of place here. Then what?

 

The answer came suddenly, from the eyes of this deity that I could see/imagine in front of me. Only her eyes I could see, and in a magic moment I saw there a spark of JOY that immediately turned on a tsunami that penetrated through my eyes and filled my head with an immense orgasm of joy, an explosion of pure, absolute joy, as I never experienced before. And her joy was my joy, and again we shared a yin-yang orgasm, but now in my/our head, with an incredible intensity, and this time with the definite flavor of JOY. This was my missing ingredient.

 

And that’s all I have to say at the moment. I don’t know what all this means, but I feel I have reached a different and wonderful place, following your hints. My gratitude to you all.

Edited by juan
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11 minutes ago, juan said:

 

Thanks a lot for this, Jeff. I could not understand it at that moment but now I think I have a clearer picture.

 

My entry door to all this stuff was sex, so this was the “form” I automatically gave to all energy flows, wherever they arose. Not a visual form, but rather a “label” for the feeling. This has changed a bit, and I would like commenting my attempts, blockages and experiences in this process.

 

As an important part of my “energy practices” is sex (tantric, perhaps, but for sure physical sex with a real woman), I tended to see with disdain any attempt of creating mental imagery around this process. What for? I had the real woman and the most incredible sex, so why imagining instead of just experiencing? And when sex became bi-directional, and I felt penetrated and filled with this energy, just as women surely feel, what kind of mental imagery should I attach to these feelings? So I just focused on the feeling, even when I was on my own, never trying to wrap any visual form around it. This was a blockage.

 

But the main blockage came from my visceral hate against religions. This is surely due to the fact that I received my religious conditioning to serve the purposes, and in the midst, of a fascist dictatorship. So the concept of “God” and “praying” they poured on the child I was at that time was so poisonous and rude that I simply can’t conceive myself praying and worshipping any god, much less these Hindu- Tibetan gods with all their elaborated imagery. From this perspective, Yidam practices seemed absolutely out of my reach.

 

Anyway, I googled Yidam and read some stuff I found here and there. And I marked this idea: “the main principle is understanding that your own essence and the god’s (or guru’s) essence are indivisible.” This seemed to be a good attitude to start exploring: seeing not a god in front of me, separated from me, but sharing his/her essence with my “own”.

 

How should I dress this god? Quite naturally a feminine image was formed, for I wanted to fuse, sexually fuse, with this deity, instead of putting it on a pedestal to worship her. And this worked extremely well. The yin and yang feelings I had in physical sex came with extreme intensity. I penetrated and was penetrated at the same time, and visualization became difficult. I could see her in front of me if I focused on my yang, explosive feeling, but the simultaneous yin, implosive feeling made me also see her inside, while I was outside. Anyway, the concepts of me, she, inside and outside become doubtful and quite surely irrelevant.

 

As I feel/visualize myself fused with this deity or whatever it is, my (our) feet and toes seem to grow, collecting millions of energy streams from far away, that converge through my (our) soles (or the place where soles usually are), go up my-our legs, slam the perineum up, and finally hit in the middle of my-our belly, with overwhelming feelings. Sex is still the best form I can allocate to these feelings, but this is much more than sex. It feels as a force of Nature; it feels as Life itself. But these are just words.

 

So I felt connected, fused with this deity, from the diaphragm down. What about the heart, that seemed to be the next level? Love is usually attached to this place, and the feelings there generated, so I tried with this concept. Soon I discovered that not any love fits. Definitely not the tamed, worn, comfortable love (but still love) that settles in a couple after many years. No, this has to be the wild, innocent, unconditional love that we had once felt. And I collected all the feelings of loving and being loved from my memories, and focused on these pure feelings only, forgetting about the specific lovers that raised these feelings, and voilà. An orgasm of love traversed our chests, I felt her love pouring and exploding into my heart and my heart sending my love back to her. If I see her as a goddess, this is surely pray. And so we fused, the same as we already were from the diaphragm down, and I could visualize her in front of me, or me in front of her, but this was again difficult and irrelevant. Everything happened in a single body, be it within or without my physical boundaries. And the flavor was definitely different from sex, and I could readily attach the label of Love to it, but, again, I feel that this thing that we perceive and label as Love is just part of a much more general and pervasive force of Nature.

 

I spent some weeks in this situation, fused with my lover deity from the heart down, but still we were a monster with two heads. I was puzzled. The concept of sex was quite good for wrapping the feelings of our fusion from the diaphragm down; the concept of love fitted quite well with the feelings at the heart (even when, in both cases, the labels seemed extremely small to cover these immense feelings). But, what kind of worldly feeling could be attached to the fusion of our heads? Mutual understanding? This has a lot to do with sharing mindsets, and mindsets seem to be totally out of place here. Then what?

 

The answer came suddenly, from the eyes of this deity that I could see/imagine in front of me. Only her eyes I could see, and in a magic moment I saw there a spark of JOY that immediately turned on a tsunami that penetrated through my eyes and filled my head with an immense orgasm of joy, an explosion of pure, absolute joy, as I never experienced before. And her joy was my joy, and again we shared a yin-yang orgasm, but now in my/our head, with an incredible intensity, and this time with the definite flavor of JOY. This was my missing ingredient.

 

And that’s all I have to say at the moment. I don’t know what all this means, but I feel I have reached a different and wonderful place, following your hints. My gratitude to you all.

 

You have described it incredibly well.  Thank you for the gift. :)

 

Your crown is now engaged.  Sort of like connected to the Divine.  Nearing a new and totally new beginning...

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