seekingbuddha Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Elsewhere, i have often mentioned in this forum this fact about fake teachers and westerners who go to eastern countries and follow their teaching/guidance. I have also said that for every Arhant (enlightened being) in the east, there are literally thousands of fake teachers. I stumbled across this video below, being presented by an american to the western society about 3rd eye opening....Watch this video first, and then on youtube do some research on the teacher shown in this video to find out for yourself. This teacher is a multi millionaire, (just like how Rajneesh was in the 1960s in USA). (swami nithyananda) This phenomenon is not only happens in west, but also in east. Be careful about who you listen to, and who you give your complete faith and dedication to. I have also seen another thread in this forum presenting video on Buddha Boy who is in Nepal. I got intrigued after watching the link i have given below.....Digging a bit into that story would reveal the nature of that boy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIIhrwuMcd8 (buddha boy video) Sometimes, this kind of teacher is not revealed well after his death. Here is a teacher who was worshipped as god by millions of people, until the day he died. The stories came out only after his death, because some powerful politicians were his backers (and probably getting kick backs)..... (sai baba india) All these 3 were revered teachers, with thousands worshiping them as enlightened. Edited October 23, 2015 by seekingbuddha 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tibetan_Ice Posted October 23, 2015 The first video about the young girl is authentic to me probably because I have driven my car with my eyes closed by looking through my third eye. Who cares if she learned the technique from a bad guru? I believe Buddha boy is authentic. Sai Baba was a fraud. Once you have the power it isn't hard to believe that others can also attain the same power. Why don't you spend more time developing yourself rather than focusing on frauds? Once you attain a power, your very own mind will call you a fraud and try to usurp your power... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RigdzinTrinley Posted October 23, 2015 I know that I'm in a cult - and I learned to deal with it 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leth Posted October 23, 2015 I know that I'm in a cult - and I learned to deal with it Yes, but there is a difference in being part of a cult and following a false teacher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leth Posted October 23, 2015 Elsewhere, i have often mentioned in this forum this fact about fake teachers and westerners who go to eastern countries and follow their teaching/guidance. I have also said that for every Arhant (enlightened being) in the east, there are literally thousands of fake teachers. I stumbled across this video below, being presented by an american to the western society about 3rd eye opening....Watch this video first, and then on youtube do some research on the teacher shown in this video to find out for yourself. This teacher is a multi millionaire, (just like how Rajneesh was in the 1960s in USA). Yes it's very common, and probably the reason why there is so much reaction towards following systems of belief. It is important to be sceptical. Sometimes, this kind of teacher is not revealed well after his death. Here is a teacher who was worshipped as god by millions of people, until the day he died. The stories came out only after his death, because some powerful politicians were his backers (and probably getting kick backs)..... While there is a lot of effort from the Indian government to educate people and help them able to discern such tricks, there is still a lot of work to be done, and such cults are still common there. But there is definiyely progress made from a societal point of view. But in the end it education is the path to end such decievers. All these 3 were revered teachers, with thousands worshiping them as enlightened. And there are countless more of them. It is a rather efficient way to earn money in a sense. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RigdzinTrinley Posted October 23, 2015 Yes, but there is a difference in being part of a cult and following a false teacher. Agreed! there was this irrational drive in me to say something silly, like Jung said "people don't have Ideas, Ideas have people" ------------- btw it takes years to build a relationship to a teacher, and during those years its not just the teacher that is under examination - the teacher will also examine the student so it is an important question to ask: "Is this teacher authentic or not" in Dza Patrul Rinpoches "words of my perfect teacher" he talks about 3 phases - that all take their time 1 examining the teacher 2 relying on the teacher (receiving teachings, empowerments etc) 3 emaluating the teachers realization and behavior (behavior comes after getting the same realization like the teacher!) many people jump to lever 2 and then from there directly to the second part of no 3 (wearing funky new cloth, mostly maroon red, walking with a tibetan lama limb - one of my friends termed it the "penguin-walk") ALAS! buddha dharma coming to the west but there is hope - we have some more time to get things right. Still examining and relying on a teacher is only one side of the coin! asking the question "is he or she authentic?" is very important but there is another question equally important: "am I an authentic student?" and the lamas I have a close relaitonship with, they make sure that I ask me that question on a regular basis also certain teachings I can ask for as much as I want - the teacher determines when it is the right time - and believe me as a translator I see tons of western people doing a strange thing: they meet a lama the very first time and ask for either Mahamudra teachings or Dzogchen teachings or Anu Yoga (Tummo etc) teachings. obviously they get turned down 95% of the time, why? well the teacher asks himself or herself "Who are you? and why do you ask me for my heartblood without knowing my lineage and training etc.? I don't even know if you are a proper vessel for such teachings or not - I know nothing of you!" so I feel the question "am I an authentic student" is as important as "are you an authentic master" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leth Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) there was this irrational drive in me to say something silly, like Jung said "people don't have Ideas, Ideas have people" Sometime the silliest things are the best things to say, and sometimes the most important things to say or hear aswell. The formatting seems to be lost when i try to quote you, so i will simply just conclude that i agree with your points and how important that understanding is. And add that it is rather hard to learn how to discirminate a good teacher from a bad teacher and that this ability is a very important one that should be taught out to anyone that shows interest in learning from a master. EDIT: I would also like to add how hard it can be to know ones own achievements, and that one should always be sceptical in regarding ones own achievements and rather focus on practice or the road ahead. Edited October 23, 2015 by leth 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leth Posted October 23, 2015 The highest spiritually achieved teachers and adepts can tell the state of the vessel/student immediately. The highest spiritually achieved teacher should be sceptical to it's own abilities. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RigdzinTrinley Posted October 23, 2015 The highest spiritually achieved teachers and adepts can tell the state of the vessel/student immediately. Unfortunately, the sincerest seeker can ask and question a supposed master for years, decades, and never know the teacher's true state. (BTW, the teacher may never truly know her/his very own achievements and spiritual state.) one place to start is probably that many very good teachers say about themselves that they are not good teachers, or just have the name of a lama or swami or whatever whereas many not so good teachers will talk about their experiences and how great they are and demand silly amounts of faith and devotion thats a a pretty rough start but some sort of start - then I think its good to see how other teachers of the same tradition think of that teacher, then its good to know the lineage and if the lineage is authentic, after that the main point the indo tibetan tradition makes is this: "does the teacher have bodhicitta, and if not geniune Bodhicitta is he/she in it for him/herself or only for you?" that last point will take some years but once you have confidence that he or she is really just there for you and not for themselves - its a preeeetttttty save relationship (taken the own personal neurosis in account) and how beautiful to find that - someone you can trust and open to on that level: the deeep deeeeep layers of the human heart, very tender very fragile - imagine they could open without any more fear and hesitation towards another human being? its a strange longing we all have I think (I do have it at least, not just the man/woman level - with a spiritual teachers its different in my experience, but similar heart openings can happen), and that is why the teacher - student relationship is so sacred and dangerous, because if someting goes wrong then I feel my confidence in the human race would be shaken, even broken maybe. So handle with care definitely! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekingbuddha Posted October 24, 2015 Truthfully, there is much confusion in spirituality and energetic practices. A lengthy discussion on this topic would only offer additional confusion and tangle minds. So, I will stop here for now. Good point. The videos i posted do not show up on my computer, i don't know why the link is not being shown as i posted it. So, i have given the names next to the videos if you want to look them up. Initial videos were interesting enough, but once you dig around, you can come across their defilements. My intention in posting this, is to inform the many who go to east, looking for a highly-liberated teacher. The post was meant for those who have already advanced from beginning meditation levels, (should be done for years to enhance their readiness to receive teaching from a eastern liberated being). The second purpose of this post is to show that a person can fall from a very high state of mind, and give-in to sensual desires and thus fall to disgrace. So, take every teacher you meet, with a grain of salt. Assuming you are a student advanced enough to go to the east, then you will already possess the ability to easily feel if the teacher is genuine. But a fool will succumb to the teacher's gentle manipulations to retain a student. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RigdzinTrinley Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) I don't like to get personal, but I have a strange tingling sensation in my belly and it wants to speak: yes all true and good, I agree it is a difficult and dangerous path this gurumarga (using the guru as the path) - not walking it just because it might be difficult or dangerous is cowardice. so be careful yes, take it easy, one step at the time - one good insight is this "I'm no great adept, I'm not like milarepa - I am who I am, I have my own crazy monkey mind, mental habits and neurosis to work with, lets start there" But you know standing on the cliff infront of the beautiful blue ocean-waters not daring to jump, contemplating how to jump, why to jump why not to jump... how can one learn to swim or feel the texture of the water? maybe people die thinking about the blue ocean-waters while standing next to the actual ocean and that would be a waste of time (time is precious) - just go away then brother, no need to be around the ocean, just life a good life in society. Nothing wrong with that, Nothing wrong (see I can't do that - thats my strange neurosis) People who move to the east (me included) we are a atrange type of personality, I defenitely have a bunch of strange neurosis/sufferings/problems that your ordinary citizen doesn't have: like what the hell do I have to die for? Why is there suffering in my mind stream? WHY? etc. existential problems, not so much how can I get laid tonight, why is there no more heinz ketchup? Who used it? well if you're that kind of neurotic you need medicin, and you need a good doctor also that is true. But there is no choice you got to go - or you go mad... you have to go and find out what this strange easterners are all about period and that has big consequences to the life path of such a neurotic person - they might get more neurotic even fanatical (been there done that, still do it sometimes) they might get free of almost all neurosis and be very happy and strong personalities (developing that kind off ) they might get liberated - who knows? (thats what I hope for, how ever foolish that is - shantideva said: there is only one illusion a Bodhisattva on the path is allowed to have and that is that there is a result to the path) if there is a strong calling - you need to go thats it, what to do? Jump into the ocean and learn to swim, that is not save, no not at all, but nothing is save 100% Edited October 24, 2015 by RigdzinTrinley 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted October 24, 2015 Good point. The videos i posted do not show up on my computer, i don't know why the link is not being shown as i posted it. So, i have given the names next to the videos if you want to look them up. Initial videos were interesting enough, but once you dig around, you can come across their defilements. My intention in posting this, is to inform the many who go to east, looking for a highly-liberated teacher. The post was meant for those who have already advanced from beginning meditation levels, (should be done for years to enhance their readiness to receive teaching from a eastern liberated being). The second purpose of this post is to show that a person can fall from a very high state of mind, and give-in to sensual desires and thus fall to disgrace. So, take every teacher you meet, with a grain of salt. Assuming you are a student advanced enough to go to the east, then you will already possess the ability to easily feel if the teacher is genuine. But a fool will succumb to the teacher's gentle manipulations to retain a student. Very good advice and I, for one, appreciate your intention and believe it to be sincere. Tibetan Buddhism has been referred to as lama-ism and I don't know if any other tradition is so focused on the master-disciple relationship (Daoism comes close). An important part of the view is to recognize that the teacher is not the human being sitting front of you or even the lineage of masters, deities, and bodhisattvas. The teacher is reality, the nature of mind, that which we already are but is obscured. The human manifestations are just plays of energy in the form of flesh and bone with the ability to communicate something to us through their own experience and dedication to the path. The deities and protectors are, similarly, plays of energy in the form of imagination and 'vision' with the ability to communicate something to us from the realm of prayer, trust, and devotion. The buddhas and bodhisattvas are projections of our collective expectations of the fruition of the path established by our culture, our teachers, our traditions. To the extent that all of this stuff supports us and helps us to become more open, more loving, and more connected, it is good and necessary. To the extent any of it becomes a distraction, a fetish, an obligation - then it just becomes more of an obstruction. If we can continue to remind ourselves of this, perhaps it will be a bit easier to avoid getting too attached to the people and experiences along the way. The highest spiritually achieved teacher should be sceptical to it's own abilities. As should we... I think that we tend to project our expectations on these people. Highly achieved teachers are still human and not yet perfect. They cannot predict the actions of all students they bump into along the way and I think the more highly achieved they are, the more they are aware of their limitations, rather than their achievements. Here's a nice talk about the student teacher relationship. It's long and there are some annoying aspects to the hosting site (he uses a different one now) but it's worth watching - it was for me anyway. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/47124034 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted October 24, 2015 The highest spiritually achieved teacher should be sceptical to it's own abilities. This is an excellent point. Or maybe said that they should not get too "attached" to their perspective. Everyone's vision, no matter the level, is obscured by their own obstructions (issues and fears). Too many "highest spiritually achieved" teachers seem to forget that... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leth Posted October 24, 2015 I'm going to elaborate on the idea of teachers and ther scepsis to their own ability. Many good things have been said here and i could reply to everyone but i just agree with you and simple acknowledge the wisdom in many posts in this thread by writing this sentance instead. A teacher lacking scepsis to ones own achievments, is a dead giveaway of a false teacher. But there are many teachers with false modesty aswell. A good teacher should be reasonable and able to discusss the various points of their practice, show both great knowledge but also great patience in explaining their practice and their knowledge. As many have pointed out here aswell, we must be good students aswell, we must be polite and discuss things from our own perspective and view, and ask so that we may understand. It is this exchange of understanding and reason that is a sign of a good master and student relationship. There are many fals students, in a sense false students are the ones that become false masters. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unseen_Abilities Posted October 24, 2015 The OP.-"This teacher is a multi millionaire, (just like how Rajneesh was in the 1960s in USA)."- doesn't seem like (although I am NOT A BUDDHIST.!.0)( buddhist forum and everything..) a valid argument for touting them as fake!!! A cultivated teacher/master of ANYTHING mystical/spiritual (with Siddhis/powers) would, to me, have, or be able to have any amount of dollars they like, without any egoic attachment to it whatsoever....a Master is a MASTER after all! I just don't think that is a valid argument!! Otherwise, get lucifer the false light out of the internet,malls,.temples.etc.Unseen_abilities. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekingbuddha Posted October 25, 2015 I don't like to get personal, but I have a strange tingling sensation in my belly and it wants to speak: yes all true and good, I agree it is a difficult and dangerous path this gurumarga (using the guru as the path) - not walking it just because it might be difficult or dangerous is cowardice. This thread is non personal and not directed. I understand what you said. I am not saying one should not seek out teachers; a teacher is absolutely necessary for someone who is serious on the path and wants good progress and results. The intention was just to show that trusted teachers have their defilements, not being enlightened. The intention was to show that a highly evolved mind could fall from that state of mind due to deep rooted sankaras. The intention was to bring some amount of sanity into the blind trust that millions (like in india) place in their teachers, even worshiping some of them as gods. Something else that came in mind ......Pretty much all prophets known in human history (including Buddha himself, according to pali canon) have predicted the decline of human morality, ethics and society in general (despite technological advances). The teachings themselves will also decline in quality and in the understanding. The timeline for this is not clear to me, but I do believe that humans do not live close to nature, like they did 2000+ years ago; and this is one of the reasons why the understanding of the teachings will also decline (as humans separate more and more from living-in-close proximity to nature/animals/forests). Highest levels of spiritual development are possible only for those who live in close proximity to nature. But this is no reason to despair; one can still gain plenty of fruits in this PATH, while living in modern society. Just the degree of attainment differs, based on conditions. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted October 25, 2015 The OP.-"This teacher is a multi millionaire, (just like how Rajneesh was in the 1960s in USA)."- doesn't seem like (although I am NOT A BUDDHIST.!.0)( buddhist forum and everything..) a valid argument for touting them as fake!!! A cultivated teacher/master of ANYTHING mystical/spiritual (with Siddhis/powers) would, to me, have, or be able to have any amount of dollars they like, without any egoic attachment to it whatsoever.... How did it happen for him to have it? Did he win a lottery or something? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted October 25, 2015 The intention was to bring some amount of sanity into the blind trust that millions (like in india) place in their teachers, even worshiping some of them as gods. May be they are gods, what do we know? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted October 27, 2015 I would say it is very difficult to find a teacher or Guru anywhere and at any time who didn't have some people attacking or trying to discredit them. To some degree it is the nature of the business, in that the teacher may bring up all the latent tendencies and repressed issues of the student, but if the student is unable or unwilling to face those issues inevitably they will be projected back onto the teacher, who is now the devil incarnate. Many people go to spirituality and to teachers with loaded expectations of what they expect to get out of it, many go to try to get away from their suffering rather than to confront it, so when the reality hits home it is easy to turn on the teacher and blame them for not given them what they believed they were due. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer Posted November 13, 2015 To the OP, interesting name "Seeking Buddha" Everywhere is Buddha, what you are looking at is Buddha and you are also That. So really whether you go to an enlightened teacher or a fraud is equally problematic because in essence you are denying the Buddha that you already Are. Special powers has nothing to do with enlightenment or ignorance - to be Awake is to know nothing is more special than another thing - for it is realised that there is only One Thing and it cannot be both ignorant and awake - these terms do not apply to IT they are only our discriminating mind. So what to do if you believe you need a teacher? Turn to nature. Nature is a pure expression of Buddha-Self because it is not tied up with thoughts and belief about identity or need, it just simply is. Look in a mirror - you and IT are the same Buddha. Now, you have found Yourself - stop seeking One of my poems: Hearing about IT will never satisfy the need for the Silence of IT. Good luck. www.taoistpoetry.com 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted January 10, 2016 I believe Buddha boy is authentic. He got into trouble: When a Teacher Behaves Unethically "When teachers break the precepts, behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation, even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way." His Holiness the Dalai Lama "Each student must be encouraged to take responsible measures to confront teachers with unethical aspects of their conduct. If the teacher shows no sign of reform, students should not hesitate to publicize any unethical behavior of which there is irrefutable evidence. This should be done irrespective of other beneficial aspects of his or her work and of one's spiritual commitment to that teacher. It should also be made clear in any publicity that such conduct is not in conformity with Buddhist teachings. No matter what level of spiritual attainment a teacher has, or claims to have reached, no person can stand above the norms of ethical conduct." StatementThis website no longer represents the organization run by Mr Ramlal Bomjon aka Buddha Boy, aka Palden Dorje, aka Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha, aka Maitreya Guru Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha, aka Tapasvi, and has reduced its content due to a long series of grave problems that could not be resolved internally. At the highest levels within the organization all the way to Mr Ramlal Bomjon himself, lies, cover-ups, divisions, discrimination, and even criminal activities have plagued the proclaimed objectives of compassion and unity that are advertised publicly. Letters have been sent to inform Mr Ramlal Bomjon and to give him the opportunity of correcting both the causes, the processes, and the disastrous consequences that such actions have had and truly aligning that organization's practices to the stated objectives of truth, compassion and unity. To this day he has never answered any of the reported issues. Instead, the situation kept worsening. Just recently he named around himself even more controversial individuals, which appears to indicate his total disregard with compliance to the laws and regulations of both Nepal and other countries. His choice of individuals at key positions in his organization can only lead to the results and scandals that have been witnessed so far, as the number of qualified, meriting, capable people has been reduced dramatically. In light of that we deem necessary to warn the public, and invite everyone to extreme caution when dealing with Mr Ramlal Bomjon's organization. As the speeches he gives appear to display the fundamentals also present in Buddhism, it has been decided to leave that content so the readers may form their own opinion about that content. In the absence of any possibility to directly ask important questions to him and receive clear and direct responses from him, one can only use his or her own judgement to form an opinion as to the validity of those speeches when examined in the light of the actual actions performed by people in his entourage, which are the direct consequence of instructions he himself has given. In the future we will make public all the issues that have not found a resolution through dialogue and cooperation within the organization still in the hope that once out in the open, those would help create the necessary conditions to prevent that these excesses and unethical behaviours continue flourishing. In the hope also that the noble goals of compassion, truth and unity, which are more important than any single person, even Mr Ramlal Bomjon himself, may be still the aim and goals we can share with ALL our fellow human brothers and sisters, without any exception. Until such a time this website will serve as a hub for presenting to the general public all the aspects of what has been actively covered up or lied about. Source. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
THACS Posted April 1, 2016 I like to say: You should not pretend to be something that you are NOT, you never know when you will be Face to Face, Heart to Heart and Soul to Soul with something that knows that you are not that. I know that I don’t know Everything because If I knew Everything, the form that I exist in now in life I would not be able to, but the form I existed in death I did but since I’m alive I know I do not know Everything. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion Posted April 2, 2016 I don't think there any sure-fire qualifiers to tell a fake from a real guru, other than to go by energy and general presence. It's a classic idea that if a guru takes credit for their enlightenment that they must obviously not be very high level, because in the absence of ego politics there's no need to do any convincing. But what if it's just factual? The thing about real gurus is that they are just some person being a person and living their enlightened life, like the rest of us. If you tell a genius that they're a genius, they'll usually just shrug and say okay, and then go back to doing their genius things... they may not conceptualize themselves that way. But tell a genius that they're a genius enough times and it might turn into an ego identity complex, and they'll start going around telling people they're a genius. Does the fact that they do so negate their genius, though? Same is true of gurus. Guru is just a word, so is enlightenment. The reality of it precedes the semantics used to describe it. Also, what is a teacher other than someone who has shown you something about yourself you didn't already know? Let's say you hypothetically follow a fake guru for some years before you find out that they're a fraud. Did that person not still teach you something? Perhaps about the value of illusion and deception? Doesn't that make them a valid guru, of sorts, without intending to be? Just an idea. And anyway, if it's all One Thing then who is doing the teaching and who is doing the learning? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
THACS Posted April 3, 2016 Are we not all both teachers and students? we even have teachers and students within us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RigdzinTrinley Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) If I am fake, the teacher is fake If I am awake the teacher is equally awake - If I wake up more the teacher is even more awake &c. usually they are mirrors, but yes in the tradition I come from it is several years of investigating and working with a guru until you commit to look into that kind of mirror - but then there is no turning back, you'll be forced to look straight at your reflection, no matter how unpleasant it might be for the ego to have this kind of relationship with a mirror a more advanced stage is that everything appears as the mirror, all circumstances become the guru and because of that appear as a rich field of exploration and growth, by then one doesn't take it personal anymore - whatever it might be may we all see the true wisdom teacher our innate indestructible wakefulness face to face without running away or looking for a better way to spend our time Edited April 3, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites