who is tired of all this crap?

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Stayin' Alive, Baby, Stayin' Alive."

-----

 

Awww, that ain't livin'!

 

But the movie - yes, that must be what this has all been about.

 

So we can be like the people in that, like wandering Taoists, dancing under a disco ball in the forest.

 

I will try it.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[3bob]

Dreambliss,  -(a variation) it's true that such may help protect the state of your mind and heart but there is also the fact that at any time anyone can come along and save your physical life without an once of hesitation or reasoning for their own safety (and made easier with your co-operation) for such is the way of human and angelic influences in this world - just look around at how such is being done with little kids!  

Edited September 6, 2015 by 3bob

[Spotless]

Nice idea Spotless, but like I said it is almost impossible to fine privacy in a peaceful, moderate and bountiful forest like the Buddhas of the past once did while not having a penny to your name and still be able to live off nature.... since there is very, very little left of such hospitable places free from fences, rules and government or owner control. (nor can most become simple non-famous monks and make a living by begging like many of the historic holy people once did since begging is looked down upon and or is not going to work well enough by itself to keep one's body alive and healthy in much of the world)

 

Granted, one can still find the quiet spaces internally through withdrawal from the world in the privacy of their own home or apartment located somewhere in a city or suburb - depending on certain factors and if they are "sly" enough to pull it off.

-----

 

It is not an idea - it is not some thought of mine - it is not an amalgam of things I have read.

 

The noise referred to is not percussive - it is identified loops of fear and imagined "discourse" - it is the illusion of "driverless carriages" that are on a mission. It is the sound of grasping.

 

Look into the stories of those who have Awakened - absolutely every single one will state the same thing - it is actually at hand - really actually with us all the time - it takes no cave, no nothing - and if you examine the stories it is most probable in a pause.

 

Like when a loved one gets hit by a bus - like when everything in your life is turned upside down - like when you have been walking on someone else's treadmill and suddenly you have come to a stop and realized where you are. Like when you ask a Zen master a question and he turns your skull upon itself.

 

It can happen in a crowd, in a forest, while on the computer looking for a job, sitting in bed, during meditation - while in a hospital, on acid - it is literally there with you ALL the time.

 

It is presence - and not one part of you will believe this or allow for it to be other than some New Age simple minded view - but when it happens it is absolutely Nothing like you have thought it to be.

 

It does not take a thousand lifetimes - it does not take incredible willpower or any willpower - it takes no sacrifice - it takes no abstinence - that is not to say practice has no place nor that after Awakening all is said and done and practice is no longer relevant.

 

If I wanted to make a pitch that you could hear I could sell the following lines:

"We will be offering a limited number of serious students the opportunity to train with Master BlackandBlue.

This is a limited 30 day intensive - we offer nail beds in a cave with no heat in late autumn - teaching will be by transmission, trance drumming circle at 4am and 4pm followed in each case by an 8 hour meditation on the adjacent glacier."

 

In this session by Master BlueandBlack - the master will ask you to step back from the noise in your head and be in presence.

If he has been effective - you might just be so exhausted to stop for one infinitesimal moment and become immediately Awakened.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Spotless

[Karl]

Yes, anyone can awaken spontaneously, it's no big deal. However 'awakening' is merely the beginning and there is always the chance of falling asleep again.

 

Liberty/freedom is the ending of the oppression of self imposed ignorance. This is beyond awakening, but awakening is the pre-condition.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Karl

[Rara]

Obviously all beings have to work and struggle in one way or another... which is a universal given for all forms of beings.

So it is not work and struggle per-se that is a problem (far from it) but the motives related to same that can and do arise.

 

For instance the struggle to survive with elemental or natural types of forces that are fair and impartial to all beings is not something any sane being could or should harp about... it's when certain forces manipulate the hell out of things for their own benefit at the expense of others that bring us into war like conditions. Also thinking that we can just turn off the radio or TV and forget about certain forces will only keep them "out of mind" until the day they are knocking on our door and then blowing the hell out our private lives. (for "the barbarians are at the gate", a.k.a. certain forces and or crap, and can only be held back through eternal vigilance along with dharmic workings)

Actually, I like the whole "being useless" routine. By the time they come knocking on your door, be so ignorant to their reality/version of events, that they give up on you and move on to the next fool

[DreamBliss]

I am extricating myself from this thread. It seems I am just parroting a belief I have adopted. I have nothing with which to back up a single word I have said. What is that Bible verse... "Even a fool is considered wise if he shuts his mouth." Something like that.

 

This fool is now shutting his mouth.

[Nikolai1]

 Of course this is an earthbound situation. If you go off on esoteric enterprises then that might be where the secrets lie I cannot say what is there, personally I found nothing but a scrubby path that led straight back to the main road. 

Hi Karl,

 

In the early days of Christianity, when the religion was fresh and vibrant and truly awakening people, there are stories of the persecution the followers suffered by the Romans.  But they were liberated within.  They had found a place where no amount of earthbound misfortune could touch their inner good fortune.  If they were whipped, they were whipped in order to demonstrate the glory of Christ.  It was a pleasure to be singled out.  When they were crucified and burnt they went to the stake singing glory and prasing Jesus.  It made no different to them whether they were alive or dead.  They were above such concerns.

 

This is the spiritual life!  Do you think these people even cared that the Roman soldiers were manipulating their very existence.  They were perfectly happy regardless!  And do you know what? It was the soldiers who were truly impressed by what these people had found, and many of the perpetrators ended up converting to the faith themselves.

 

Even if you dismiss the Christians as under some kind of delusion...can a more perfect and benevolent delusion be imagined? It is a delusion that sustains you through suffering and unto death and, who knows...beyond?

 

Anyone who has started to sense the true potential of the spiritual life has very little concern whether they are trapped in some kind of Matrix.  Liberation that is only political is nice, but not the most important thing worth having.

 

I suggest to you that your forays into spiritual practice were only ever about getting something for yourself here and now on earth.  When you could see that it wasn't going to happen that way, you just went bck to the prosaic business of getting ahead on this planet.  And when it isn't happening you blame those who supposedly keep you in subjugation.

 

Why don't you consider true liberation? The liberation of the Cristian martyrs.

[Marblehead]

WoW!  Reading all that makes me glad I'm not a Christian.

[Karl]

You mean like the Jews went into the gas chambers to the sound of uplifting music and the promise of a better life, or the boys who volunteered for the First World War and would pretend they were older just to get a part of the great adventure ?

 

Of course I was only doing spiritual things for gain. In order tomove from the present less satisfactory situation, to that which I believed to be more satisfactory. I suggest to you that is what everybody is doing and that you are no different to everybody.

 

Eventually I even got it through my thick skull that liberation was freedom from the oppression of my own ignorance. If you wish to live in happy ignorance then I wish you the best in following your heart. I cannot say you will not be happier doing that than to dispel ignorance, we must all make that choice and no one can make it for us.

 

By ignorance I do not mean it as an insulting slur, but as a passivity of mind.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Karl

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Anyone who has started to sense the true potential of the spiritual life has very little concern whether they are trapped in some kind of Matrix.  Liberation that is only political is nice, but not the most important thing worth having.

 

I suggest to you that your forays into spiritual practice were only ever about getting something for yourself here and now on earth.  When you could see that it wasn't going to happen that way, you just went bck to the prosaic business of getting ahead on this planet.  And when it isn't happening you blame those who supposedly keep you in subjugation."

-----

 

The first sentence is very interesting. I guess it would depend on who "they" are that are stuck.

 

Because, on the other hand, spiritual understanding can produce a state of "mea culpa" when the imaginary divisors are seen through.

 

The whole second paragraph - that can be true. It's a challenge of sorts too, that seems full of bile, but it's also describing a normal part or stage of the beginning of spiritual thinking, especially in the modern era.

 

As far as the call to try out the "liberation of the christian martyrs" - the supposed new martyrs might find a difference between legend and truth at some critical moment or another in their modern martyrdom.

 

Like the monks who calmly lit themselves on fire and sat, burning, in protest of the war - this is still not truly an act of freedom. It still shows attachment and exclusivity. It is an act still relative and stuck in a materialist context of proof and meaning. To mainstream americans in the 1960s, those monks just became part of a TV show, and psychologically, a few more dead asians during a contentious time.

 

Where were their intent and actions focussed? Externally, or internally?

 

Or at psychological constructs?

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

Eventually I even got it through my thick skull that liberation was freedom from the oppression of my own ignorance.

I like that.

 

By ignorance I do not mean it as an insulting slur, but as a passivity of mind.

Agree.  It should not be taken any other way.

[Marblehead]

 

Like the monks who calmly lit themselves on fire and sat, burning, in protest of the war - this is still not truly an act of freedom.

Well, they died.  But didn't change anything except their existence.

[Nikolai1]

You mean like the Jews went into the gas chambers to the sound of uplifting music and the promise of a better life, or the boys who volunteered for the First World War and would pretend they were older just to get a part of the great adventure ?

 

 

It is very good and noble to aim for political freedom, but it isn't actuallly the thing that the spiritual seeker considers most important.

 

There is a kind of liberation that holds even when confined in a concentration camp.  A few remarkable souls had this ingredient, life was bearable for themselves and they were able to ease the pain of others.  Nowadys, films and books are written about these real-life stories.  Vicotr Frankl in his famous book Man's Search for Meaning saw at first han how some immediately despaired at being in this barbwire Matrix, others did not despair and remained strong and cheeerful.

 

What is this ingredient?

 

Some people first sense it exists, and then want it for themselves: it is the spiritual life. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Karl]

It is very good and noble to aim for political freedom, but it isn't actuallly the thing that the spiritual seeker considers most important.

 

There is a kind of liberation that holds even when confined in a concentration camp.  A few remarkable souls had this ingredient, life was bearable for themselves and they were able to ease the pain of others.  Nowadys, films and books are written about these real-life stories.  Vicotr Frankl in his famous book Man's Search for Meaning saw at first han how some immediately despaired at being in this barbwire Matrix, others did not despair and remained strong and cheeerful.

 

What is this ingredient?

 

Some people first sense it exists, and then want it for themselves: it is the spiritual life. 

 

Well that's what you must do if that is what you want. I'm not for 'making the best' of living in misery I prefer solutions to limp passivity and placid acceptance.

 

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Silent Answers]

Well, consider that I wasn't being all that serious either. No, I won't blame America's problems on the UK. They already have enough of their own.

 

If you could remove your current government it probably wouldn't make that much difference. Some other controlling person (s) would take their place. That's the thing with leaders. They need to have people they can control else they are not leaders - just wannabees.

 

But this concept of gun control is rather important to me in that I am a firm believer that if the vast majority disapproves of their government then they have the right to revolt. To revolt with pitchforks today just wouldn't work.

 

And I would be willing to bet that you have never seen or heard of a successful revolt in any country that has gun control laws.

Good point about the right to revolt.

 

As for the leaders who rise to take power, let's not forget those that place/allow/want them there. It's woven into human nature to find our place within the pyramid. There are those of us (in general) who figure it out and dominate, those that figure it out and wu wei, and those that never had a clue.

 

Our mental state shines through our social structure. You are what you eat, ya reap what you sow, as above so below.

[Karl]

Good point about the right to revolt.

As for the leaders who rise to take power, let's not forget those that place/allow/want them there. It's woven into human nature to find our place within the pyramid. There are those of us (in general) who figure it out and dominate, those that figure it out and wu wei, and those that never had a clue.

Our mental state shines through our social structure. You are what you eat, ya reap what you sow, as above so below.

I would say that there are those who are specifically streamed as a caste to dominate, those who act as zookeepers and the rest as human cattle. This is Platos pyramid. Yet, at the top of the pyramid exists a mirror. It is ones own mental ignorance that allows it to continue.

 

Those outside the pyramid are mostly wandering in the desert trying anything to dispel the ignorance, but, like some hellish nightmare the path to understanding is paved with the illusion that ignorance is a better option. Those that do not dispel the ignorance will shortly find themselves back inside the pyramid and accepting everything with a blind sense of spiritual pragmatism.

 

Effectively 'I can't do anything about it, please insert me back in the Matrix'. As Cypher said 'I know when I put this steak in my mouth it is the matrix telling me it is juicy and delicious, but after all this time, I think ignorance is bliss'

Edited September 7, 2015 by Karl

[3bob]

I remember some of the mis-led hippies of the 60's and early 70's walking around saying, "better red than dead" glossing over well known facts by that time that many millions of people were executed out of hand or via concentration camps under communist Russia and China !!  And such people didn't consider themselves ignorant while getting all sorts of BA's BS's and masters degrees in the safety of American campus somewhere without worry of execution.  (although we did have Kent state and some other horrible campus incidents back then, but such did not cost millions of lives on US soil - then again our well educated government people back then thought they could bulldoze and bomb their way through Vietnam which cost around a half million+ lives altogether including around 60k of American boys)  What a lovely world that has continued on from then (?) no wonder there are so many brilliant cynics walking around. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by 3bob

[Silent Answers]

[Karl]

I (temporarily?) accept this base illusion as my only reality (because forget about fighting robots!), and try to fall through it in the nicest possible way. The purple pill.

 

It is the reality and you have one foot in the pyramid and one foot outside it. The way of compromise is no way at all, there is no commitment in it, just a dreary acceptance. Take the red or the blue pill.

[Marblehead]

I'm just wandering around in the desert.  Can't even find the pyramid.

[Karl]

I'm just wandering around in the desert.  Can't even find the pyramid.

 

That's the only other option. If you aren't in it, then you can't support it. Not another brick in the wall.

[3bob]

...they say that pyramids, even after being ransacked thousands of years ago, may still have some undiscovered secret chambers... btw, it doesn't seem like the wine hidden down there would be in very good condition after so long thus bring some pure mountain spring water along to add to said wine the next time you go exploring such ancient sites...

 

or if you are some kind of master just turn the water into wine as the need arises

Edited September 7, 2015 by 3bob

[steve]

 

like the daily news most of which is not good to horrific although with some redeeming aspects.

I'm getting dam tired of dealing with the worldly affairs since high school in the early 70's, in other words making a living is killing me - how about you?  (and forget about retiring to the jungle like various Buddhas once did and lived off the bounty of nature (or by begging which householders do not do) since that is more or less impossible in this day and age!)

 

After the 9/11 attacks in New York, I began reading news from a variety of international sources - NY Times, Wall Street Journal, Al Jazeerah, DEBKA-file, Tass, Xinhua, BBC, Reuters, etc... They are all so readily available. What I learned is that there is no such thing as truth in news, only opinion and perspective. Until you look at a story from multiple perspectives, you really are simply at the mercy of the publisher; and they are not terribly merciful, they all have an agenda based in money and power. After having an insight into that, I gave up news for the most part - no newspapers, TV or radio news. I even stopped reading online news sources. Enough gets to me passively to have a sense of what's going on and, quite frankly, I think I'm just as educated about events if I know nothing about them as if I read or watch news reports.

 

News has become a political and economic tool, I'd go as far to call it a weapon. In the US we have 60 Minutes to thank for that. 

Before that program aired, news agencies were mostly loss leaders providing a public service subsidized by advertising and entertainment. After 60 Minutes demonstrated that news could be profitable, it has BECOME entertainment and a propaganda tool. The best opportunity we have to change the world for the better is to liberate ourselves from ignorance - news reporting does not help that process, it hinders. 

 

Free yourself from propaganda, you will gain infinitely more looking inward.

[Marblehead]

I just watched a documentary (ethosthemovie) that talked about how the media manipulate the people driven by big corporations.

[3bob]

I understand your point Steve but don't fully agree with it since such could also be said of a whole lot of  SPIRITUAL or philosophical text from most all traditions, yet people don't just abandon such because of a few bad apples or power plays related to same;  thus counter to certain teachings given out of context when it comes to "discrimination" we do need to have some ability to discriminate in certain cases, aka "stand for nothing and fall for everything".

 

Freedom of press is abused but at least there is some chance in most westernized countries to contest the facts without being taken out back and shot dead at the drop of a hat or for a wrong sentence.  (with North Korea and radical Islam as probably being the worst examples of such)