steve Posted March 8, 2015 mind taken as real in itself or as master within itself is the grandest and greatest illusion... but mind taken as a tool for Spirit to deal with form or categories is real... further, true faith and hope spring from the reality of Spirit, while illusion springs from mind when taking itself as master or in trying to enslave Spirit to its mental manipulations and veils. Lasting and quintessential Freedom will never be found in mind, thus only in Spirit. Nicely said It seems to me that faith is inseparable from the spiritual path. The seeker is unsatisfied and looking beyond mind. Faith is that which gives this endeavor meaning, direction, and sustenance. It is both a beacon and a support, depending on where you are on the path. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 8, 2015 Actually both the posts from 3bob and Steve are good and valid statements. You both put the concept of faith where it belongs. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted March 12, 2015 There's a good chance someone will want to add an opinion. Onions are good, we can add some chives as well, and maybe a little bit of garlic n_n 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 12, 2015 Indeed, a little garlic fixes almost anything. (But I did say opinion, not onion.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted March 12, 2015 potato, potahto, tomato, spaghetti. whatever. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted March 13, 2015 Butter, salt, and white pepper... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 13, 2015 It has gotten to the point where it could be argued that the entire thread is an illusion. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4bsolute Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) It's fascinating to watch how we cling to words and concepts like a drowning man clings to a floating log. It's so restricting, so limiting, and yet the illusion of security that this gives us is powerful. For me, better to let go of labels, definitions, and concepts - let go of belief! That is a beautiful thing... Equally important to let go of dis-belief! That is just as much an obstacle. Better for me to rest in a state of unknowing and openness and simply observe without interference. This is the most fertile ground for realization. Once realization dawns, unknowing is extinguished; belief and dis-belief are unnecessary. The need for security vanishes in the light of knowing. Faith "I know" isn't it? Who ever is interested in satsang with one's self and discovering one's true nature will understand why "we" do this. Because if we dont, than the mind shows it's very last barrier and that is fear. And yes, here is faith useful. But what kind of faith is it? Faith requires a believe and what happens when you are about to put one feet and the rest of the illusory "you" into a space completely void of concepts? It becomes blind faith. And essentially blind faith does not exist anymore. It is so transparent that it barely can be identified as faith anymore. Because you can not explain it to anyone. You can try but everyone will not feel it's texture, for it is so "light". The very, very last fear that there is, is fear of death. And in my own experience before this fear is the fear of not being able to relate anymore. If these both illusions are expelled one can "travel" consciously the "bridge" between "heaven and hell" with the earth as.. earth, inbetween both. All of these are concepts and all of these are real. For every concept has a reality to it that can be experienced. Just like we experience the very first states of creation itself, every day, every cell in a fraction of a second and continues to do so forever. I am almost not able to speak about these things anymore because I lose interest of using words the more deeper I allow myself to go... ...and it is such a relief. Edited March 17, 2015 by 4bsolute Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) that may be one part of the coin 4bsolute, another part is a willingness to die for the truth with such being in the end - a desire and need that is greater and deeper than the fear of or the power of death... Edited March 17, 2015 by 3bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted March 21, 2015 "I know" isn't it? Who ever is interested in satsang with one's self and discovering one's true nature will understand why "we" do this. Because if we dont, than the mind shows it's very last barrier and that is fear. And yes, here is faith useful. But what kind of faith is it? Faith requires a believe and what happens when you are about to put one feet and the rest of the illusory "you" into a space completely void of concepts? It becomes blind faith. And essentially blind faith does not exist anymore. It is so transparent that it barely can be identified as faith anymore. Because you can not explain it to anyone. You can try but everyone will not feel it's texture, for it is so "light". The very, very last fear that there is, is fear of death. And in my own experience before this fear is the fear of not being able to relate anymore. If these both illusions are expelled one can "travel" consciously the "bridge" between "heaven and hell" with the earth as.. earth, inbetween both. All of these are concepts and all of these are real. For every concept has a reality to it that can be experienced. Just like we experience the very first states of creation itself, every day, every cell in a fraction of a second and continues to do so forever. I am almost not able to speak about these things anymore because I lose interest of using words the more deeper I allow myself to go... ...and it is such a relief. Illusion or not, faith is the fuel that can allow some to take the journey you so eloquently describe. When's its been felt, that can be felt in the words. Thank you for your post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted March 21, 2015 that may be one part of the coin 4bsolute, another part is a willingness to die for the truth with such being in the end - a desire and need that is greater and deeper than the fear of or the power of death... That death is going to come, willing or otherwise. I think that the same willingness can simply be brought to letting go of effort and resting in what is, as it is, for now. Then maybe we can do it with death as well. That will be quite a journey - I've been meditating on it often of late. I am blessed in that my job gives me a chance to make contact with it daily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Josama Posted May 2, 2015 I don't really like the term 'faith'. Faith is something I can't relate with. Faith for me is a word I relate with religion. Christianity has ruined anything religious for me. Also, faith is usually used in relation to a deity. Calling a Buddha a deity would mean that you are never able to reach the same level. Also, for some it may mean that it isn't real. That's why I prefer trust. The one thing I would recommend every beginner of a tradition like Pure Land Recitation to do is to picture the Buddha they are connecting to as their best friend. That way unconditional trust(faith) will come on it's own. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spotless Posted May 2, 2015 (edited) The lines blur in this topic because the word "faith" is defined even in the dictionary as two different words - one is what I would suppose is the root definition though I have not verified this at all and one being an asurpted definition that is actually another term for the word "belief". One could say: "in view of all that I have read and gathered about these concepts and practices of Yoga, I have decided to take a "leap of faith" and give it a thorough, diligent and reasonable test in order to see if they bear fruit. I have no agenda what so ever to prove their correctness or folly - they just appear to have merit in the face of some reasonable trepidation as well. If they are found true then I will be delighted and if they are found untrue I will be delighted, for from what I do know from the facts, their is nothing in the process of discovery of yoga that will harm me in the least and in fact everything I do in the discovery will only effect me positively" This is very different than the other definition of "faith" - that it is a "belief", but the word appears to have been asurpted and if enough people us a word in a particular way, the definition will change or expand and be published with the new meanings. If one looks it up these two definitions are given for the same word. One is a bit like holding ones breath and going underwater with a assumption that you can have a reasonable expectation to submerge in time to breath again. The other is a bit like watching Fox "News". Edited May 2, 2015 by Spotless 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Josama Posted May 2, 2015 (edited) The lines blur in this topic because the word "faith" is defined even in the dictionary as two different words - one is what I would suppose is the root definition though I have not verified this at all and one being an asurpted definition that is actually another term for the word "belief". One could say: "in view of all that I have read and gathered about these concepts and practices of Yoga, I have decided to take a "leap of faith" and give it a thorough, diligent and reasonable test in order to see if they bear fruit. I have no agenda what so ever to prove their correctness or folly - they just appear to have merit in the face of some reasonable trepidation as well. If they are found true then I will be delighted and if they are found untrue I will be delighted, for from what I do know from the facts, their is nothing in the process of discovery of yoga that will harm me in the least and in fact everything I do in the discovery will only effect me positively" This is very different than the other definition of "faith" - that it is a "belief", but the word appears to have been asurpted and if enough people us a word in a particular way, the definition will change or expand and be published with the new meanings. If one looks it up these two definitions are given for the same word. One is a bit like holding ones breath and going underwater with a assumption that you can have a reasonable expectation to submerge in time to breath again. The other is a bit like watching Fox "News". You are absolutely right. However, for me the first thing that comes to mind when I think of faith is the church. Even while I know that faith can also be used differently. Like sometimes you see faith used in books referred to person. Usually it says something like 'I have faith in him'. In that context I find it is still all right because you have faith in a person. To have faith in someone you know and trust is easy. However, to have faith in someone(like Amitabha) you have never met is difficult. The problem is that having faith in a friend is not used a lot as it is used mostly associated with religion and that is where the problem is. Well maybe that just shows that there is nor real faith between friends in general in our society anymore... Hmm this is a tricky topic. I was never religious, had and have trust issues, so faith is as far as I am concerned a very foreign word to me. However, due to pure land recitation I have come to know what faith is so I can relate to now. Still when I think of faith I use it as believe or hope like you put it. The funny thing is I made a test just now. When I thought of 'faith' what I felt was 'doubt', even when I thought of Amitabha. When I used trust however I got 'faith'. That's why I had really avoid using that term rather use trust and/or unconditional trust. That feeling of unconditional trust is part of the Higher Self so it's very important. As doubt is part of the Ego it will only hinder progress. One simple exchange of words can make such a big difference... Edited May 2, 2015 by Josama Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spotless Posted May 3, 2015 I think you could say "I have faith in him" and use it in the first definition that I stated: "I've known Tom along time and I have faith in him - if anyone can bring those cattle across the Rockies at this time of year its Tom Coulter" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Josama Posted May 3, 2015 I think you could say "I have faith in him" and use it in the first definition that I stated: "I've known Tom along time and I have faith in him - if anyone can bring those cattle across the Rockies at this time of year its Tom Coulter" Yes we could, however it gets rarely used. It's not something people identify with and there lies the problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noonespecial Posted May 4, 2015 I read somewhere that.. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I always loved that quote, I believe from Hebrews? Is that it is intrepreted by both Fundamentalists and Atheists in the exact opposite way of what it is saying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jadespear Posted June 2, 2015 Faith is a mental attitude. An attitude required to achieve anything at all anywhere.... if you have no faith, what have you got? Even if you knew everything about the entire universe, what would you do with it? Faith is what we apply to the knowledge we have to achieve anything we want. Faith is key to life, and life is key to faith. Belief is quite different... belief can be a barrier, or a manifester of imagination. Faith and belief are both useable, faith being more so for people who need to change, because it gives them courage to do so, and the idea that they can, will, and should. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted June 2, 2015 Very nice post even though we would disagree about details. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 10, 2016 We bumped the bimp. That suggests to me that there is at least one person who would like to hear more about this topic from others. I will hold to that concept of confidence over faith. Confidence is grown over time. Faith just magically appears out of the mind. And even if I expressed "having faith" in whatever/whoever, there would need be some sort of reasoning to support my expression. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 10, 2016 The lines blur in this topic because the word "faith" is defined even in the dictionary as two different words - one is what I would suppose is the root definition though I have not verified this at all and one being an asurpted definition that is actually another term for the word "belief". I think your two words are actually two sides of a coin on some level. Faith can proceed on the strength of belief or the weakness of willingness. The former seems rooted and the latter seems fragile. Yet both reflect the engagement of the concept in its own way. A lack of faith is not the end all because it could be simply void of faith... so there are two sides to this coin. No faith as in a determined decision to not accept something. No faith as in there has not formed the need for it. If there is a lack of judgement or lack of criticism, then this kind of lack of faith is simply dormant. I would argue the first 'no faith' means the gate is close but the second lack of faith means the gate is at least unlocked. IMO, the important thing is to not lock the gate... the more open the gate the better but even being unlocked is better than locked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 10, 2016 IMO, the important thing is to not lock the gate... the more open the gate the better but even being unlocked is better than locked. I can accept that. True that there are many people who need some amount of faith in their life because of the harshness of their present reality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drifting_Through_Infinity Posted September 10, 2016 Faith is like tolerance. The ignorant man is tolerant, the wise man sees nothing to tolerate. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
