Can we not love our brother as ourselves?

[Marblehead]

... a manifestation of cause and effect.

Yes, a manifestation by two ass holes who were too cowardly to stand up and argue their perspective. Too stupid too, apparently. The cause was gross stupidity and the effect was numerous innocent people being killed.

 

Isn't karma great?

[manitou]

Yes, a manifestation by two ass holes who were too cowardly to stand up and argue their perspective. Too stupid too, apparently. The cause was gross stupidity and the effect was numerous innocent people being killed.

 

Isn't karma great?

Karma isn't great. It isn't not-great. It is what it is. If you poke your finger at a rabid skunk, you're going to get bit, as Steve said.

 

To call the people two people a-holes is to misunderstand the gist of the Tao. They are not separate from you, any more than you are separate from the Logos. We are all part of it; they are part of us. The best of us and the worst of us; within that is contained the potential for all of our characters, despite how we feel at this moment.

 

Sorry, I must use myself as an example here, because I'm the only one I really know. When I was retired off the police department, I was having visions of going into the police station with an M16 and blowing away everyone I could find, because of circumstances that had happened. Obviously I needed much therapy, and I needed to get sober and find my inner peace. This I did. But I can still relate to the human emotion, because I've had it myself to some degree. I felt the same as they do, and they went the one step further and physicalized their emotions. I did not. But if I had not left the department when I did, I very well may have. There but by the Grace of God (an expression only) go I, as they would say in recovery programs. Please, nobody get their panties in a twist because I mentioned God. You know what I mean by the expression.

 

The shooters in this case had different buttons pushed. they have never done the work to remove their buttons, obviously. But if they did have the opportunity, perhaps in their next life, to remove them, we may well find them here on TTB's speaking of the Oneness of everything.

 

We are all connected by the soul, and we all have the same capacities, given the right circumstances. For good, or for so-called evil. The point of transcension, of finding the vacant hole in the cup of the Tao, is to be non-judgmental. Doesn't mean we have to buddy up to folks who appear 'evil', but to see them with compassionate eyes. We, too, are them. They too started out as perfect little beings, but being born into particular circumstances their path was to become completely contorted.

 

I too am an Atheist. In the sense that I outgrew my childhood teaching of there being a god 'out there' who is directing traffic. Any of us who have transcended our early paths are atheists in that sense. But to wear the badge of atheism is a path as well. One can even sit in the vacant hole in the middle of the wagon wheel, the vacancy which enables all the spokes of the wheel to maintain their strength and cause the wheel to function, and call himself an atheist. But this is an atheist with an air gun, who shoots at all those who have outgrown their paths to get to the hole. The atheist who understands the Logos and realizes that he is part of it is merely an atheist who has developed understanding of the Tao and the Oneness of all mankind. Otherwise, it's just an atheist with an airgun.

 

As to the shooters, there but by the 'Grace of God' (or Logos) go I. Go we. To live in separation, to think that we are somehow different and of a separate human race somehow is to live in duality. And duality is not reality.

Edited January 10, 2015 by manitou

[3bob]

there are far too many comments to try to quote & respond. Further, rather than try to refute a person's assertions,I will try instead to make a few observations that I hope might bring some positive to the discussion:

 

RE Free Speech:

much of the western world does follow the precept of free speech, which in itself allows these discussions on this forum and others like it; as opposed to strict totalitarian regimes such as many Muslim Countries, Red China, North Korea, etc where even these considered dialogues could result in imprisonment or death.

 

As has been pointed out earlier one must exercise free speech with discernment - for example the famous example of "Crying 'Fire' in a crowded theate"r.

 

However, the thought of "free speech police" deciding what may or may not be "safe", "allowable", PC, etc brings chilling thoughts of the Eras of the Stazi, Gestapo, Stalin, Mao's Red Guard, etc ...

-------

 

MOTIVES:

 

Yes, There is great injustice in the world, stemming from many directions (when in doubt, follow the money). Yet "we" individuals can neither control it nor be held responsible - how can I be justifiably be held personally responsible for what William Randolf Hearst publishes, or for the corporate policies and actions of Standard Oil let alone the actions of the U.S. , Canadian, Mexican, or French Government? And Whilst it can serve great purpose to try to understand one of these terrorists individuals and their motives, it will most likely prove futile, and one may find oneself unwittingly becoming an appologist for what is nothing but a deluded person who became a psychotic murderer.

 

-------

 

I can and will decry the actions of such murderers. If by chance I am present at such an event I pray that I will have the presence of mind and courage to do what I can to prevent their actions. Should that involve violence, I will accept that burden with the knowledge that I will have considerable work to do to "deal with" that burden appropriately; If I survive I pray that I will have sufficient time in this pitiful life to do so. In any event I am certainly without a doubt that any price I may pay to stop harm from being perpetrated upon innocents will be worth it.

 

While I have been taught Above all Else Do No Harm, I offer further: Nor through inaction allow harm to be done (please see Tenzin Gyatso's quotes below) .

 

It has also been said that all that Evil needs to succeed is that a Good Person do nothing.

 

-------

 

I do have some small education in the matter of the sayings of The Prophet Mohammed. ( BTW If I recall correctly few of the entries in the Koran were by his hand, but were recorded by those around him- much in the manner of the Buddha).

 

It is important to remember that Mohammed himself taught that if fighting were necessary only combatants were to be engaged- not women, children, animals, innocents, non-combatants, and not even a tree in the street . Thus any fools who claim they are practicing a "holy jihad" in the name of the prophet are terribly mistaken.

 

An Imam with whom I was acquainted spoke publicly regarding that, and further stated that in the modern world a "holy jihad" should actually be a battle with the deamons within oneself, and that those who tried to fight a modern war in the name of the prophet were being deluded and used.

 

-----

RE HATE

 

We can and should identify and stop such criminals and murderers. It is likely and unfortunate that extreme means are required (as we saw in todays news) - but try above all else not to hate them ! The negativity both inward and outward has extra-ordinary effects and repurcussions , and will only further the problem. Hatred and Vengence fuels and continues more wars and blood-feuds than anything else. Hate begats and fuels more hatred just as Loving-Kindness can be extended and returned and extinguish hate.

 

Jesus said "Love Thy Enemy" -

The Dalai Lama extends Love to the Red Chinese Government and the very soldiers who drove him out of Tibet and murdered and tortured Tibetan Monks and Nuns.

We should strive to follow their examples.

 

------

Cause and Effect -

can be more complicated than we think. I believe it isn't just a cartoon lampoon that casued this.

Whilst Manitou offered considerable discussion, I beleive it goes further back to historic manipulations and machinations for power and money, on the part of numerous governments, power brokers, certain wealthy factions, as well as misguided maniacal religious fundamentalist extremists.

 

It is even worse than trying to play "what if" - trying to untangle the web of casue-and-effect in cases like this can lead one in conspiracy loops and drive one mad

 

------

What Would XYZ Do?

 

Jesus turned the other cheek; When Rome came to arrest , torture and kill him He told Peter to "put up his sword". (However he had foreknowledge of his fate and had resolved to make the sacrifice).

 

the Dalai Lama ( incarnation of Compassion) at a lecture in Seattle, May 2001:

Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th and current Dalai Lama made a three-day visit to Portland, Oregon during which he said:

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

 

Sunday, January 18, 2009

The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence on Saturday candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.

 

"It is difficult to deal with terrorism through non-violence," the Tibetan spiritual leader said delivering the Madhavrao Scindia Memorial Lecture here. He also termed terrorism as the worst kind of violence which is not carried by a few mad people but by those who are very brilliant and educated.

"They (terrorists) are very brilliant and educated...but a strong ill feeling is bred in them. Their minds are closed," the Dalai Lama said. He said that the only way to tackle terrorism is through prevention.

 

Remember too what the Dalai Lama previously taught:

- Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive.

- Compassion and tolerance are not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength.

- It is the enemy who can truly teach us to practice the virtues of compassion and tolerance.

― Dalai Lama XIV

 

-------------

 

It may be difficult to understand, but these concepts are not mutually exclusive. One can put down a dangerous savage rabid dog, not out of hatred, but out of necessity with sadness, sorrow and compassion in ones heart.

 

yhs

shunka

(edited to fix strange artifacts)

 

That was a lot to reflect on Shunka! Thanks for your contribution and taking the time to bring up many fine points.

 

I did seem to hear some mixed messages related to quotes from the Dalai Lama... For instance on one hand he is saying (my paraphrase) "love will over-come all problems" pov but then he also gives a "shoot as needed to kill" pov.. I ask, can one exercise both pov's and really pull it off as if they are unified in their state of being? I'm not seeing that happening... for there can be problems with us not knowing our own limitations in one way or another. For instance only a being of what we might call a +7 magnitude can do direct battle with a being of -7 magnitude and fully deal with and understand what is happening, and thus pull it off - with "love". On the other hand a being of say +2 magnitude should not try to pull off doing battle with a -6 magnitude of being which they do not fully understand and thus can not really handle, which doesn't mean to do nothing but to join forces with and follow the lead given by +7 beings. Btw, my partial definition of a +7 being is one who has faced the deepest and darkest -7 demon within themselves and overcome, thus they can face the same on the (so called) outside.

Edited January 10, 2015 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Karma isn't great. It isn't not-great. It is what it is. If you poke your finger at a rabid skunk, you're going to get bit, as Steve said.

 

That's common sense cause and effect.

 

I was being an a-hole when I asked "Isn't karma great?"

 

Now I will go back and read the rest of your post.

[Marblehead]

To call the people two people a-holes is to misunderstand the gist of the Tao.

That is called "living in the real world", which, BTW, is the gist of the Tao.

 

If you don't call it what it really is then one is lying. One cannot tell the truth and tell a lie at the same time.

[Marblehead]

They are not separate from you, ...

 

Yes, they are separate from me. They were a-holes even though I have one. They are dead and I am still alive. I help people in need; they killed without discrimination.

[Marblehead]

Except for the below the rest of your post is too complicated to speak to.

 

As to the shooters, there but by the 'Grace of God' (or Logos) go I. Go we. To live in separation, to think that we are somehow different and of a separate human race somehow is to live in duality. And duality is not reality.

No. If I ever get into a mental state as they were in I hope someone kills me before I kill anyone. And that is the truth.

 

Yes, I am separate from them. I did not kill anyone in Paris. They did. It is not my fault that they did what they did nor do I hold any responsibility for their actions. Perhaps others are to blame for corrupting their mind so badly. If there are any I wish them death as well.

 

There is a difference between good and evil in the mind of the human animal. The vast majority of people on this planet would say that their actions were evil.

 

(Wo)man lives his/her life based on dualistic concepts. Help/harm is a moralistic philosophy. Few would say that what the two did helped anyone. Most would say it did great harm. There will now be more people who grow hatred for Muslims. Those two not only harmed those they killed but they also harmed the religion they claimed to be members of.

 

What they did was cowardly and inhumane. They were of less value to the universe than the pigs in the sty. At least the pigs can be eaten.

[manitou]

Wow, Marbles.

[Marblehead]

Wow, Marbles.

Hehehe. You can do better than that. You are very good with words.

 

 

BTW While outside attending to the gardens and fish ponds the thought came to my mind to respond to something you said above:

 

 

"... there but by the 'Grace of God' go I."

 

A direct response from me: There is no god. Time for us to start taking responsibility of our actions.

 

... or ...

 

From the first monotheistic religion known of at this point in time, Zoroastrianism:

 

God created man (and woman) with free will but also charged him (her) with responsibility for all his (her) thoughts, words and deeds. (When the religion was first established there was no devil anyone could blame their evil thoughts, words and deeds on.)

[liminal_luke]

A thought that occurs to me...

 

As opposed as they seem, perhaps the world needs both Manitous and Marbleheads. Instead of arguing about which perspective is right, what would happen if we mixed their disparate world-views up in an alchemical elixir, combined their yin and yang without needing to reach for some unequivocal truth, just let them cook together for a while.

 

Liminal

[Aetherous]

Hehehe. Islam didn't exist when the Buddha was alive.

 

Your'e right...but Buddhist texts and commentators did come afterward, particularly in Tibetan Buddhism. Buddhism has actually had a long and troubled history with Islam, as far as I'm aware.

 

According to this video on the history of Islam, the religion has murdered approximately 10 million Buddhists over the course of its existence...

 

 

*****

 

 

On the subject of karma in Buddhism, I just went back and looked at my notes, and found the 10 unwholesome actions which are the causes for experiencing the effects of bad karma. I take back what I said...Steve was right. Satirizing Islam and their "prophet" would be minor forms of "sowing discord" and "harsh speech" (more severe forms are taught as being when those are done toward the dharma and sangha for instance...when performed against good people who benefit the world, and against the good they do).

[Bubbles]

edited

Edited January 14, 2015 by bubbles

[gendao]

I'm no big fan of the Abrahamic religions...but I would imagine that these Muslims are not merely taking violent revenge against free speech. 

The Anglospheric cartoons satirizing their idol are essentially the "last straw" of pouring salt in the wound of over a decade of invasive Western imperialism in their lands, destruction of many hometowns down to rubble, pollution with over 400 tons of DU radioactive waste, killing of millions, imposition of economic sanctions against, etc etc...

Imagine if a Muslim country did all that to the Anglosphere...and then to top it off, published cartoons mocking Jesus Christ just to rub it in?  Kick a man down...and then start cracking jokes at him?

I mean, that sort of happened with the Moorish invasion of Europe...and Europeans eventually crusaded back..

 

Yes, murdering cartoonists is a SEVERE OVERREACTION to their mere free speech "insults."  But, a dozen bodycount is also a SEVERE UNDERREACTION to the sheer destruction that Anglos have actually inflicted upon Muslims over the past decade.  Although, Muslims themselves have ALSO inflicted a lot of destruction upon others, now and historically, as well...

[steve]

I wouldn't speculate on their mental state. I am not sure it is so different than the average Joe/Jane. In the day to day life, don't you meet people who are convinced that they hold truth in their political views, religion views, in their opinions about the local sport team? Look ate what is occuring minute after minute here at TTB..Have you seen a lot of people changing their mind after exchanging views in threads? Have you seen a lot of understading? Everyone is coming here with his own truth and turnkey solution.

 

If people develop enough anger, despair, extreme emotions, they can do anything. Go in court, if it is a public audience, sit down and listen to what people say. This man killed his wife, *because he loved her*. This group of fans of the local sport team attacked people of the other side atfer the match, *because they got insulted*..

 

In my city, two men recently drawn their infant in the river because their wife was leaving. When you hear stories about young westeners who gave all signs of sanity, kindness etc who silently became djihadists, it looks like more people than we think have fragile, and wobbly personalities. Is their any clear cut and neat border bewteen sanity and madness? Honestly I am not so sure.

 

As a consequence, wishing death to everyone being in such extreme mental state or to the people who corrupted the mind of these people seems inappropriate to me. It would lead to massive killings. Mental states are conditioned: with appropriate factors, specific drugs, alcohol, you are able to lose your mind. It doesn't mean you can't reverse the process and find your way back towards reason. We never know. This is not being naive or gullible. Some real people found their way back to sanity after commiting murders.

 

I am out of this thread now, because I posted too much.

Thank you Marblehead.

 

edited for spelling

 

Sorry you're leaving bubbles, your contributions are valuable.

It is so important to not underestimate or dehumanize the "enemy."

I actually puts us in a vulnerable position and at a disadvantage.

 

Yes, it's extremely difficult to feel genuine compassion for people who do terrible things and hurt us.

If we're not ready to work towards that, then we shouldn't because it takes enormous dedication and energy.

The secret is that forgiving people like this, when the time is right and we are ready to do so with sincerity, is that it is an act of strength, not weakness. Forgiveness helps us much more than them, it gives us strength, confidence, and frees us from the grip of fear and the feelings of weakness and vulnerability. It doesn't make things easier for the perpetrator but rather puts the responsibility back on them where it belongs. Don't take my word for it. If you have the feeling that it is something you want to pursue, find a teacher or teachings that can support you and work on it and see for yourself.

 

Jihadists are not stupid or crazy even though it may seem that way from our perspective.

Data shows that they are intelligent, highly educated, and quite sane - from their perspective.

Yes they think and feel quite differently than most of us do most of the time.

They are different and they are criminals and, in my opinion, need to be held accountable for their actions.

Nothing we can do or say can change their minds.

 

I think the only way for them to be change is through a fundamental change in the Islamic world and mindset, meaning the reformed and moderate Muslims as well as the more orthodox deciding that they want to teach their children to be loving rather than full of hate.

 

From my perspective the radical Islamists are not so different from what I see in the speech and actions of the Chrisitan right here in the US. Certainly we see less violence here BUT if you look critically at the US military behavior outside of the US in Latin America, the Middle East, and Asia, I think you see a very different picture. Also, when you look at the continued racism and intolerance domestically (homophobia, etc...). This is what I think people around the world are reacting to, not our "freedom and democracy." These are the karmic seeds we have sown and that are coming to fruition in the violent behavior we see both around the world and in our own cities.

 

Anyway, I'll stop there - I want to get back to Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's free online workshop on Soul Retrieval - it's brilliant.

 

Peace and love to all, even Marblehead.

 

[3bob]

This world will change when and as it evolves and becomes "heaven" like. The soul of the Earth and others know of that hard won evolution. Then fighting and strife will no longer be taking place here although it will be taking place somewhere else - for beings that have yet to evolve beyond states of warfare, strangely sounding enough and in a way need such states to work through to evolve.

[Marblehead]

Buddhism has actually had a long and troubled history with Islam, as far as I'm aware.

I watched about 12 minutes of the video. It recalled some of my history courses from back in the 1980s.

 

Yes, there has been and still is troubled waters between Buddhism and Islam. Witness Pakistan and India. And the unfortunate people of Kashmir.

[thelerner]

I'm no big fan of the Abrahamic religions...but I would imagine that these Muslims are not merely taking violent revenge against free speech.

The Anglospheric cartoons satirizing their idol are essentially the "last straw" of pouring salt in the wound of over a decade of invasive Western imperialism in their lands, destruction of many hometowns down to rubble, pollution with over 400 tons of DU radioactive waste, killing of millions, imposition of economic sanctions against, etc etc...

Imagine if a Muslim country did all that to the Anglosphere...and then to top it off, published cartoons mocking Jesus Christ just to rub it in? Kick a man down...and then start cracking jokes at him?

I mean, that sort of happened with the Moorish invasion of Europe...and Europeans eventually crusaded back..

 

Yes, murdering cartoonists is a SEVERE OVERREACTION to their mere free speech "insults." But, a dozen bodycount is also a SEVERE UNDERREACTION to the sheer destruction that Anglos have actually inflicted upon Muslims over the past decade. Although, Muslims themselves have ALSO inflicted a lot of destruction upon others, now and historically, as well...

Moslems have also inflicted an amazing amount of punishment on other Muslims in recent history. Numbers running well into the 100's of thousands a year for a quite a while. The West is certainly not innocent but much of the murder and mayhem is imo home grown.

 

The pictures you show, are you sure they're not all Moslem on Moslem violence? If you researched each one, could they have resulted from the millennia long Sunni Shiite conflict? I don't know, but you may very well be showing pictures resulting from that religious schism and blaming it on the West. <sorry if this is a side track, but this happens quite a bit on the internet>

 

 

Also to the above post, Islam gives Judaism and Christianity special rights as Peoples of The Book. Buddhists and Hindu's do not get that 'special rights' and in some darker fundamentalist Islamist circles are open game. Unfortunately B'ai Hai's can be subject to scorn and punishment because they're considered by many heretics.

Edited January 10, 2015 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

I am out of this thread now, because I posted too much.

Thank you Marblehead.

Well, you did a fine job at attempting to cause me to moderate my views concerning this.

 

The saddest thing is that there are many beautiful Islamic people. Many of them moved to Europe and the Americas in order to escape what the extremists were doing in their homelands.

[Marblehead]

Although, Muslims themselves have ALSO inflicted a lot of destruction upon others, now and historically, as well...

Yes, for the past 1600 years as a matter of fact. And please don't forget that it were they who first invaded Christian lands and killed people indiscriminately. And please don't forget that it is a stated goal of the radical Muslims to convert the entire world to Islam.

 

But then, their goal is no different from the Christian goal of converting all the peoples of the Americas to Christianity. Convert or die. And then after they convert they still got killed.

 

What a beautiful thing some religions are.

[Aetherous]

Also to the above post, Islam gives Judaism and Christianity special rights as Peoples of The Book. Buddhists and Hindu's do not get that 'special rights' and in some darker fundamentalist Islamist circles are open game.

 

I always thought that the three Abrahamic religions were kind of like brothers, having some sort of respect for one another due to their common roots in monotheism. This video tells absolutely otherwise, quoting directly from the Quran and other Islamic sources...very educational vid...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT0eZ12SJMk

 

And compare that to the video I posted earlier regarding Islamic history (which unfortunately very few of us have the time to watch). Basically, "Peoples of the Book" are considered as open game to the Islamists, and have been treated as such. Understanding this clearly can help us understand why terror attacks are occurring in our countries...because we tolerate this ideology, and are fooled when they feign innocence.

 

How not to be fooled any longer:

Edited January 10, 2015 by Aetherous

[steve]

Yes, for the past 1600 years as a matter of fact. And please don't forget that it were they who first invaded Christian lands and killed people indiscriminately. And please don't forget that it is a stated goal of the radical Muslims to convert the entire world to Islam.

 

But then, their goal is no different from the Christian goal of converting all the peoples of the Americas to Christianity. Convert or die. And then after they convert they still got killed.

 

What a beautiful thing some religions are.

 

I don't see this as a goal or consequence of religion.

It is a goal of the humans who do not understand or practice the religions they hide behind - they are power hungry cowards, religious people are humble and loving.

At least that's how I look at the world.

[3bob]

makes me wonder how the Sufi sect deal with all that black and white violent doctrine that was quoted? (in post 100 and elsewhere)

Edited January 11, 2015 by 3bob

[thelerner]

In my view, and its shared by many, maybe..hopefully most of the adherents of the 3 Abrahamic religions is that we are indeed well.. cousins, if not brothers. We have gotten into some pretty viscous fights at times, yet at others we've gotten along okayishly. Its not unusual for some sub group to get crazy, yet I think the majority tends to be saner, yet the crazies tend to rise to power.

 

As far as the internet goes, I find its poisonous to get information on a religion solely from sources that are obviously against it, and/or hate it. In other words its better to find out about Islam (or Christianity/Judaism) from an internet source that is Islamic, or better yet ask a Moslem, visit a mosque, talk to an Imam.

 

As part of there religious education my temple has the kids find out about Islam by going to a mosque, talking to an Imam. Likewise they go to Cathedrals and find out about Catholicism from priests.

 

Because there are sects and periods where religions and countries go nuts there will always be a way to paint a religion or country in the darkest light. Its very easy and its not accurate. If you been around a 1000 years + you've got skeletons in your closet. That's not to be too lovey dovey, imo there are problems with radical Islam. It has not always been so and hopefully will continue. You can historically point to Saudi funding of 100's of Wahhabism schools that have helped poison some of a generation.

Edited January 11, 2015 by thelerner

[3bob]

if one gets information from a well recognized and accepted source of doctrine directly related to or of a certain religion and that doctrine itself is poison, yet one remains lovey-dovey about it then what would you call that?

[thelerner]

I'd also ask that we do our best to keep this thread clear of vicious sentiments aimed at any religion (though I'm certainly guilty of expressing some of that myself), especially when ones that tend to be 'All blank are blank', because like all generalities they tend to be untrue. We don't have a large Moslem group here to defend itself, and in the past when we have its devolved into My Religion (or lack of) is So Much better then yours.

 

One its against board policy, two it brings out the worst in us. E