What's your favorite current word for The Ineffable?

[Brian]

Clearly, you need an ineffable kitchen...

[soaring crane]

Same here 'ineffable' isn't used much here in the UK in spoken conversation but you'll sometimes see it in print.

 

His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation

Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:

His ineffable effable

Effanineffable

Deep and inscrutable singular Name

 

http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15121

[Chang]

His mind is engaged in a rapt contemplation

Of the thought, of the thought, of the thought of his name:

His ineffable effable

Effanineffable

Deep and inscrutable singular Name

 

http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15121

 

As fine a description of the practice of mantric meditation as one could hope to find.

[manitou]

 

As fine a description of the practice of mantric meditation as one could hope to find.

 

What a predictable deterioration this thread has taken, lol.

 

Tantric meditation is clearly effable as well...

[forestofemptiness]

Cosmos.

[C T]

Been thinking about this for a couple of days, and the only word, and a common one at that, which cropped up over and over is potential. Why? Simply because of the endlessness of possibilities tied to that one word.

[soaring crane]

Potential is now. In the narrowest definition.

[C T]

'Now' is mostly beyond words, i guess.. Cool..

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Just in case anyone thought that my original suggestion:

 

For a long time one of my favorite words for ineffable has be "strawberry", just try describing the taste of a strawberry and you will see what I mean. So ordinary, so taken for granted, yet so "indescribable".

was not profound enough for such august company as all of the above. I thought I would revisit my response to something Sinfest posted before he became first our Protector, then our defector, to demonstrate its august pedigree:

 

 

Sinfest!

You seem to have the most humorous response, even if it is not original with you. Congratulations. There is only one problem. As the whole Platonic tradition from Plato's Parmenides, through the abiding, procession and return of Plotinus' interpretation of Plato's thought, up the dialectical ladder of Proclus' commentary on Plato's Parmenides and down the propositional ladder of his Elements of Theology, the Platonists have conclusively demonstrated that the one is eminently, if tediously, effable.

To find something truly ineffable we need to dig deeper and find out what is really meant by ineffable. Obviously one meaning, the inability to simply utter the word, cannot be what is intended because one, syllablelistically speaking at least, is an example of itself, which is a complex and convoluted way of saying that it is just a dime a dozen one syllable word, not even a twenty-five cent four syllable one, and thus, it is eminently utterable. One, One, One, you just uttered in your mind, easy. Now try saying out loud, One, One, One, see easy too, no problemo.

You could even compose a love song, well I could, I don't know about you, to it, which could be full of easily uttered ones, including crypto-ones, such as "Oh sweet and wonderful, one (did you catch the crypto-one there?), my praise for you has only just begun...", full of nice rhymes too. Sing it, sing it out loud now right now, to your favorite hummable tune or piece of toe tapping music. A hymn of praise I tell you, to the oh so very effable one. There is more to the song by the way, but you have to come to my $10,000 a spot weekend retreat. Here's a teaser, "I say you're name out loud oh one of wonder, a blinding flash, the sound of thunder... oh sweet, sweet effable one."

So quid pro quo, oops, sorry, I got my Latin quotes which no one is supposed to know the meaning of anyway mixed up, so quod erat demonstrandum, simple utterance is not what ineffable means, but rather something more, like the opposite of the long drawn out account of the one which those tedious aforementioned Platonists provide, so that if something is a "no-account" then then maybe it is ineffable, because no account can be given of it. This I suspect is the original meaning of "there's no accounting for taste", seldom quoted in its original Latin these days because,well it would be pretentious and over the heads of most people reading this, but that has never stopped me, no siree, not ever, so here goes: de gustibus non est disputandum, which by the way rhymes with quod erat demonstrandum, Latin is so regular that way, no need of laxatives here, it may not scan though, at least not without a little work. I suspect that the real origin of this is not taste like, "wow, Lady Gag-ahs meat dress was in really poor taste", but rather more along the lines of "wow, this tastes awesome!" So here is an experiment for you, describe in twenty-five words or less the taste of a strawberry. Go ahead, it should be easy, after all this is a common everyday experience, no grand mystical attainments are needed here, but if you have never tasted a strawberry, how about a banana? By the way do you know what to do if someone comes at you with a banana? I sure don't, years of martial arts and the thought still FREAKS ME OUT.

Well here is one clue, strawberries or bananas for that matter, don't taste at all like chicken! That said, is there a problemo here? Even if you use words like it is sweet, or it is sour, that essence of strawberry which separates it from the sweetness of banana, or the essence of raspberry which separates it from the sourness of strawberry, is that a problemo? Si problemo, It's almost like those strange occult virtues about which I have written at some length elsewhere, which cannot be known by reason, but only by experiment. And what, heaven forfend, if you find someone who hasn't experienced sweet or sour, much less strawberries? Maybe the lack of an argument in taste is because there is no way to describe it in words, it must be experienced, the experience itself escapes a simple recap, an easy description, strawberries are all a bunch of no-accounts. Well I guess they don't come in bunches, bananas do, so bananas are a bunch of no-accounts and strawberries are ...a box of no-accounts! Well at least that's the way I buy them, in boxes.

So bananas, bacon, veal saltimboca, at least in so far as we are talking taste here, are no-accounts too, and just about everything else like that. Strange, it seems that all of these simple everyday things which no one pays any attention to are more of a problemo than meets the metaphysical eye. So something which cannot be easily accounted for, defined, or described, is this the sense of ineffable that we are looking for? Description is the beginning of definition and definition is the foundation of reasoning, the problem with the One and what makes it so effing effable is that it has so many logical entailments that if you are a verbose Greek speaking person more prone to splitting hairs than a bad bleach job, then it is easy to make the One very effable. It is in fact way more effable than readable. But those damned strawberries, well, there is no accounting for them, they are nondescripts of the worst sort.

Based on the above I propose that for clarity's sake we replace ineffable with something simple and well, English, like indescribable, because indescribable is a simple word which conveys the sense of ineffable that we are looking for, something that escapes easy description. With our simple equation of ineffable is indescribable, my, my, that sounds wrong since we have just shown that ineffable is describable. Oh well, what I am trying to say is that Vmarco was actually wondering if there was something really indescribable. Quick answer the taste of strawberries.

So this mystical stuff is supposed to be indescribable, but turns out to be really very describable, well at least if you read these old Greek dudes, but, if it is the indescribable that you want, why bother with mysticism and gurus, when indescribable things are all around us? Oh, but you still need to take my $10,000 weekend seminar, you want to hear my song don't you? I have a really great bass-baritone voice, I'll be singing it myself. By the way, the food is great!

All this talk of strawberries, bananas and other delicious things, well I don't really like bananas, but hey, there is no accounting for taste, has made me hungry. I want something ineffably delicious! Glory Hallelujah, I have seen the light! Almond Joy, here I come! Got milk?

 

Put that in your hash pipe and smoke it.

 

[Marblehead]

That cartoon had to come up eventually.

[Taomeow]

Here's my very own (and partial) ineffable lists -- [a] for the ineffably benign, for the ineffably malign:

 

[a]

Fathomless

She, with a capital S

Mother of the Universe

The Valley Spirit

Geometry

Tsai yoshto yoshto

That Music

That Forest

S, The Mysterious Border

 

They, with a capital T

Them, with a capital T

The overlords

The Machine

The Pyramid

T, inverted, The Press

Edited December 4, 2014 by Taomeow

[Mark Foote]

Another one I've been using currently is The Tendency. I think that the Tendency is contained within the Dao, as a type of blueprint. But it has a subtle reference to action, which is the apparent physical world we are born into - again, as the Tendency of a plant to find the light. But the action is impelled from within the object or person, not from without.

 

Ever since I read "Black Elk Speaks", it's been the great spirit.

 

And as for a subtle reference to action, "the mystery dance", thank you great spirit!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Mark Foote

[soaring crane]

@Mark Foote - - you wouldn't be an Elvis Costello fan by any chance, would you?

[MooNiNite]

Om or is it Aum?

I have a little medallion from India with that engraved on.

 

if you know the origin you will know the true sound

[manitou]

 

Ever since I read "Black Elk Speaks", it's been the great spirit.

 

And as for a subtle reference to action, "the mystery dance", thank you great spirit!

Me too, Mark. My shamanic side often speaks to the Great Spirit. In fact, that's why I chose the moniker of Manitou---which means in Algonquin, 'the spirit that underlies everything'.

[manitou]

Been thinking about the concept of The Potential vs. The Tendency. I see the tiniest of nuance of difference which I think makes a difference.

 

The Tendency seems to have action built into it; as though whatever is moving or growing is tending in a particular direction.

 

The Potential could be seen as having no action built into it. Yes, it's there to be used if one wanted to - but it would be possible to stay in one unmoving position within the realm of Potential and never doing or growing.

 

Because this Maya we live in is the world of Action, I'm still preferring Tendency because of the action contained therein.

 

But both are good concepts, IMO. There have been some great and simple concepts on this thread.

[Brian]

Seems to me that this thread has quickly followed the predictable path followed by all religions of saying something is beyond our comprehension and then proceeding to debate the semantics. Funny how quickly and easily we slip into it even when we are aware of the warning against attempting to do so, isn't it?

 

I'd say "the ineffable" (whatever that means) is all those concepts, none of those concepts, more and less, and something completely different, too.

[C T]

 

I'd say "the ineffable" (whatever that means) is all those concepts, none of those concepts, more and less, and something completely different, too.

Exactly! POTENTIAL. Brian, thank you for agreeing.

[Brian]

LOL

 

[manitou]

Yes. If we were all mutes with no fingers, we'd be a lot better off, I do believe

 

(POTENTIALLY, at least)

Edited December 4, 2014 by manitou

[GrandmasterP]

 

if you know the origin you will know the true sound

Hum?

 

 

On topic....

How about...

Numinous

Edited December 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Mark Foote]

Been thinking about the concept of The Potential vs. The Tendency. I see the tiniest of nuance of difference which I think makes a difference.

 

The Tendency seems to have action built into it; as though whatever is moving or growing is tending in a particular direction.

 

The Potential could be seen as having no action built into it. Yes, it's there to be used if one wanted to - but it would be possible to stay in one unmoving position within the realm of Potential and never doing or growing.

 

My comment on the "Double-Weightedness" thread, where dwai quoted his sifu as saying "if your mind and motion are together, you are double weighted", and wonders about the meaning:

 

'Sometimes I come around to just the senses, including the mind, but also including the sense of location and weight that I seem to really identify with, physically. The weight goes into one foot and the next posture opens up in another direction. My mind is going nowhere but there is a sense of place and weight.

"if your mind and motion are together, you are double weighted". Heart-mind is a place, motion gives potential to place while at the same time motion is a function of place.'

What I had in mind, although I didn't look it up until just now, was Yuanwu's use of the words potential and function. Here's one passage where he uses the words:

 

'In general, when superior wisdom, excellent capacity, and natural potential are already there, it is just a matter of working to penetrate through surely and truly. When you put it to use, you command Great Potential and unfurl Great Function, moving even before any impulse to action, operating free of things.'

("Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu", trans. Cleary & Cleary, pg 2)

Yes, and he's wonderful for leaving me with that vague sense that I know what he's talking about, but don't press me for the precise explanation-- as in his continuation:

 

'Yantou said: "Spurning things is superior, following things is inferior. If we talk about battle, each one's strength is in the turning point."

If you can turn fast on top of things, then everything will submit to you, and everything will be in your grasp. Capturing and releasing, rolling up and rolling out--all can be transformed. At all times you remain peaceful and tranquil, without having anything whatsoever hanging on your mind. In activity you accord with the situation and its potential, holding the means of discernment within yourself. Shifting and changing and successfully adapting, you attain Great Freedom--all things and all circumstances open up before your blade, like bamboo splitting, all "bending down with the wind".'

(Ibid)

Nothing to be done about any of it, but I love the sound!

[manitou]

Hey. 'Great Freedom' is truly a masterful concept for what we're talking about.

 

Yes, that vague sense that we know what the masters are talking about, because we all have the Knowledge within us, whether we've gotten down to it or not. Sometimes things resonate in harmonious vibration, and we don't quite know why. I think the mysterious resonations are our guideposts and lead us to continue inward. It just seems like once one has gotten to a certain point, there's no heading back. The lure is too great. It becomes as a gravitational attraction which pulls us to the center.

Edited December 5, 2014 by manitou