Spirituality has to go

[Marblehead]

If you believe that I have a bridge I am willing to sell you.

 

 

 

BTW Even the Science Channel says: Question everything.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Marblehead

[iain]

the real goal is to be a human being having a spiritual experience!

 

((embodiment))

Then we have all already scored ...

 

Human is our own self made tag, our perception of this and that is all that we know; that is spiritual stuff, residing purely in thought; but that which we perceive is material, or at least has passed through our senses at some level in the case of emotions, rather like looking at the world through a mirror.

 

Are you certain that the image that you have just described; is not somewhat inverted?

 

Edited October 14, 2014 by iain

[Songtsan]

If wishes were fishes, we'd all be eating some tasty dishes! Spirituality and Religion are too ingrained into cultures....try again in 100 years or so....

[soaring crane]

I see science give back a lot. Religions, gurus, guys with funny hair, only take.

Feeling good about oneself is nice, but that's basically nothing.

Spirituality is such a waste of time, would be better taking that time to become a doctor then qi gong instructor.

 

*swig*

 

well, about that (and resisting the urge to pounce on the typo), I fill in for the qigong instructor at a 'psychosomatic' clinic in the area (will be taking over the position in December, it seems). This is a clinic where people land once the allopathic, university medical doctors have given up on them and decided that their very real physical ailments have psychological causes. Psychosomatic Clinic, it's in the name.

 

I've helped more of those patients start on the path to real healing, self-healing, than any medical professional ever did. And it's soooo simple. All they need is someone to tell them that it can be done, to show them a few techniques, and to help them break out of the passive role, stop playing the victim, and to stop waiting for the next appointment or pill.

 

Of course many of them completely block the lessons with the wall of ignorance that their doctors helped them build. But I give them the information and inspiration, and have to then leave it to them to decide to take control of their fate, or not.

[Protector]

Write a pamphlet and go to a medical school

win/win

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1k8AbL28uoQ#t=402

 

6:42

 

There's no point in balancing something that is not on the equal standing with the other. There is no duality in a pear and a plane.

No one think they are 100% correct before they do an experiment. Except they might think, "I'm doing this because I'm 100% confined it wont kill me." They think that because of evidence, not faith.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. There's no proof that spirituality is all it's cracked up to be, except it makes people feel more important about themselves.

 

 

Thoughtological experimentation with consciousness is basically your most scientific approach to spirituality you could want. what DO you want?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Just saying, I'm tired now

the spirit of resisting spirit is weariness; a futility.

[mewtwo]

I agree with your post protector. I've gotten away from this stuff hence why I don't post here much anymore. but was gonna ask your opinions on something else so I came back and saw this.

 

I still read the tao te ching and art of war. I do like the way the books are written and they are fun.

[Protector]

 

 

Thoughtological experimentation with consciousness is basically your most scientific approach to spirituality you could want. what DO you want?

 

Hard to explain

 

 

[steve]

I see science give back a lot. Religions, gurus, guys with funny hair, only take.

Feeling good about oneself is nice, but that's basically nothing.

Spirituality is such a waste of time, would be better taking that time to become a doctor then qi gong instructor.

 

*swig*

 

LOL

 

What about both?

[Jadespear]

The usefullness of the useless is what escapes the hands of the void and ruthless.

 

There is a place for spirituality I think.... if it is making you more aware than what you were before. Ancient people's lived in a much different world than we do now and had a much different use for the same truth that both of our societal histories share. Today, so much spirituality is sold to people as a way to cope with their lives, which is fine....in ancient times this was true also.

 

I think the real fruits of spirituality (meditation) are supernatural abilities that man is born with that make life easier to live and which can enable oneself to create the life that one so wishes....without the need for material possessions to survice or conflict with other living creatures. If everyone was developed enough to know and to see what they could do, our world could a have a better chance at being a brighter place to live. "We are all God's underneath" - Buddha

 

Some people live in peace because they have evolved past the need for material food...

Some people meditate for years because they love it and it makes them happy...

Some people go to church and give away their money...

Some people visit the afterlife to gain information on their departed loved ones, which gives them peace...

 

Point being, if you are not developing yourself to the point of where you can go, see, or do anything in the perceivable universe than yes..... you might as well stop.

 

Spirituality not taken this far or as this means of freedom is nothing but further prisons of belief, habit, enculturation, and ignorance.

[Nungali]

LOL

 

What about both?

 

Well, eventually ... but I think his plan to get an MD first is sensible.

[iain]

Hard to explain

 

 

On a parallel with Dawkins own self comparison with that of a selfish machine ...

 

 

Edited October 15, 2014 by iain

[steve]

Well, eventually ... but I think his plan to get an MD first is sensible.

 

I agree, that was my approach as well.

In fact, no reason to ever focus on the qigong or the spiritual.

Not everyone has a need or aptitude for it.

My point is that some do, some don't - good to acknowledge that and support each other on our unique paths.

And even a little constructive caution towards each other is a beautiful thing, especially when it comes from caring and experience.

[soaring crane]

well, about that (and resisting the urge to pounce on the typo), I fill in for the qigong instructor at a 'psychosomatic' clinic in the area ..

 

i just want to clarify that I'm not claiming here to be any kind of healer or qigong guru. I just do the most basic things imaginable with the patients -- arm swinging exercises, head-to-toe self-massage, belly breathing, and even a few easy qigong movements. It's simply the realisation that they can do these things, that they can in fact work on their own bodies with their own hands which opens up a world of possibilities for the future and puts the dogma of the past into a new light. Even very basic body awareness in itself can be such a tremendous tool in overcoming difficulties.

 

And these are the things that western medicine either has no time for, or perhaps in a more cynical moment, keeps hidden from patients.

 

I'm thinking of the average orthopedist's waiting room. You'll see a lot of, mostly elderly, people sitting in uncomfortable positions on crappy chairs, for half and hour, or an hour and a half, waiting their turn to go to the exam room to get their cortisone shot and be sent home to wait for the next appointment (a generalization, of course). If the doctors really had the 100% healing of their patients in mind, their waiting rooms would be outfitted with exercise equipment, for example. Or they'd let people wait outside in the fresh air and encourage them to go for a walk in the meantime. Anything other than sitting there, cramped up and stiff, getting sicker and sicker ...

 

But that doesn't mean I'm a militant western medicine hater. It has its successes for sure, and has served me well when necessary, but the allopathic nature of the schooling will always mean it remains strictly symptom-oriented.

[Songtsan]

Spirituality, Religion, Metaphysics, Science, Philosophy, etc. are all at their best a search for truth. At their worst, well, you know how they end up. They should all collide into one at some point, with the delusional beliefs of each being shorn from the matrix as they spiral towards eachother. Ignorance can only stand so long under the sun before it wilts.

 

'Religion' is dictionary defined as a 'strong belief system' in part

 

Science is the study and observation of reality through empiricism

 

The difference here is that we can observe 'outside' and agree upon it to a large extent, but that when one has an 'inside' experience, it is not considered empirical, although it is still observed by the one who observed it.

 

The things that we can agree upon when we observe them together we call science.

 

The things that we all experience internally are called other things...

 

When certain things that can only be observed internally, one by one, are seen again and again by many, they also are accepted scientifically, yet they are more 'soft science,' like Psychology, for example.

 

See how we still talk about things like, 'what is mind?' for example...these internal things are the most unexplored, in that they are the most fuzzy/vague, whereas externals seem to be more classifiable....

 

In the end, the mind that classifies and compares is the weakness - it can only go so far as it can observe and understand clearly.

 

On the whole I am in agreement with you though, we need to desmystify all this stuff the best we can - demystify simply means to uncloud, etc.

 

It's a matter of degrees, inch by inch...

 

What we have to be careful is that we don't make concrete that which is not yet known too fast! Or else we build in fallacy, and it becomes accepted as truth.

 

Science that moves too fast will do this.

 

Spirituality is a buffer for science in that the vague shadowland of things that are metaphysical can be explored by minds for millennium until science can slowly extrude the pure, verfied data..

 

There is a place for everything.

 

Religion also has a place - it's a proving ground of another sort - it shows the power of blind (faith based) belief and what it can amount to. Its lessons can be seen through history - often in helping us to see where not to go; i.e. the proof is in the pudding. The results seen through the centuries in large patterns of misery/bliss.

 

We are the human experiment. We come here empty - our original minds reset - then filled with new belief systems that plot a course for a mix of salvation/destruction....then the whole matrix of beliefs dies with the body...the awareness that incorporated it returns to its 'untrammeled essence'

 

So, you see, religion is science - it's an experiment. Spirituality the same.

 

Beliefs are the common core.

 

Beliefs are not something we take with us.

 

The truth shall stand, the false shall wither as it has no grounds in the long run.

 

What is left here will stand or fall on its own merit....

[Rara]

Here's a topic I've been thinking about for a while but didn't know how to word it right

 

So, 8 to 9 years of goofing around in spiritual circles and the conclusion I've reached is: it's useless.

• Philosophy: The ancient knowledge that is thought of as being valuable has long ago stopped being special and is common knowledge. It has been expressed so much through art that the special lessons can be easily be found in children's cartoons and movies. Old is not better.
• Masters: It's hard for individual people to have more information than the whole collective of the Internet. In the old tradition it was expected to trust the teacher until the training is complete. In the information age it is encouraged to ask what are the facts and what is the truth that these facts present. Authority must be questioned.
• Reality: There exists an idea that reality is a coin with a material side and the immaterial side. Some people feel like the immaterial or spiritual side is more interesting and important. Like it gives life meaning and is necessary. That side is only an illusion, the spiritual side exists only out of ignorance of the material world. So far the answer to every mystery has never been magic and it's not expected to be magic.

There is a force that when expressed through a multitude of people, is called Religion, but when it's expressed through an individual, it's called Spirituality.

Religion survives through the power of authority and doesn't like to be questioned. Simple spirituality survives through individual's reasoning and ignorance. Spirituality is not as destructive as religion and any negative or harmful effects are purely dependent on the person's reasoning. Spirituality might have minimal effects and I think the worst thing it can do is accept ignorance. But then, we had a guy around here who convinced himself that women are evil and the only way he can survive the evil society is by living in a cave...

 

You might be wondering why I'm making this thread instead of letting you guys do whatever. I actually felt guilty that I would let you guys go on without considering this possibility. You probably already thought about it before, but you know, reminder!

 

Lots of people want other people to be more enlightened so we could live in a more enlightened age. I actually think we're already there. Positive and negative are both parts of a human experience but the negative is more noticeable.

Some people desperately want supernatural to be real, they wont be happy until that becomes a part of that world, but I disagree. Lots of spiritual movement is useless, especially the supernatural beliefs.

 

 

I also predict a question: "How are you sure the science is right and we don't just have answers that science haven't considered, yet?"

Some people are so sure about their belief in ghosts and such that they've convinced themselves that there must be a scientific conspiracy to keep away the truth. That. Is. Crazy. But mostly improbable.

Lets say that you've learned of a super awesome horse stance that has super awesome effects. If it has a magical explanation then this is your chance to find out what is actually happening when you do the horse stance instead of accepting authority of a master.

There is no authority in science, it is your journey to find the truth and the truth doesn't have an agenda. If you don't trust an astrophysicist then learn astrophysics.

The ones who have an agenda are spiritual teachers who use tricks to get your money, they are the ones who benefit from the so-called scientific conspiracy.

 

I predict another one: "I have firsthand experience of the supernatural and that's evidence enough for me, so sad that you wouldn't understand"

OK, but I don't think that spirituality and magic powers are related even through they are often grouped into one category, even by me up there.

Sadly, your one time experience doesn't mean anything if you can't explain it. You might have more then one and each one of them different, but I still can explain most of them with this example.

I saw a demon summoning ritual that has a high probability of killing the summoner. Obviously not in person, or I would actually be dead. It has the same principle as many practices have for making the practice believable or real.

Here's how it goes: You need to be an apprentice under a magician for say, 40 years. It takes you thousands of dollars to get the materials. You need to meditate for 3 months. You need to memorize incantations for as long as it takes you. When you do the ritual alone, you will actually see it.

The thing is, the whole process of collecting materials and the wizard training over the years has been meditation. Meditation, in the most basic terms, is a way to hack your brain. Each step is a way for you to tell yourself that the whole experience will be real and that builds up stress. At the very end, when the demon is supposed to show up, you have enough stress to stop your own heart.

That's a very negative practice but a good master will use meditation to make you feel more powerful and you could actually do it yourself, but I don't think many of you own caves in China.

You basically can convince yourself of anything as long as you have enough chi. Chi is the energy that powers intention, but people give it too much credit at times.

 

Very well said. Although I would open up just two things to argue:

 

1. Spirituality is a positive way to help someone in need of getting away from things such as addiction, anger, depression etc. Its what I went out to seek and it led me here. At the same time though, you are right to point out how it can easily lead to a religion of dogma, superstition and craziness.

 

2. Not ALL meditation is bad. Mindfulness on the breath and body will always provide benefits for those conflicted, both mentally and physically.

[Protector]

There was a time when Love was a concept that could only be understood spiritually.

Not anymore, we know what happens in the brain and know what patterns we follow

I bet ZOOM could write something about it around here

 

There are so many songs and stories about love that it's probably nice for some people to not know most stuff about it.

 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

There was a time when Love was a concept that could only be understood spiritually.

Not anymore, we know what happens in the brain...

 

Does a description of neurotransmitter activity capture the emotion it's associated with? Knowing the physical correlates of an emotion doesn't imply having any knowledge whatsoever of the emotion itself as it occurs in the mind.

[Songtsan]

In the end, spirituality, etc. is a lure - craving, desire, for a better place - addiction to bliss at its core - it is yet another grasping for greener grass, as is science - desire to know is desire to be able to make sense of chaos in order to order things into a more peaceful, blissful environment- to streamline things to make everything more comfortable.

 

This is OK though - why not?

 

Yet at the same time, one should endeavor to accept things as they are, in order to destroy suffering. Suffering is of course nonacceptance...

 

So - one may seek to 'do good work,' as in refine the world through various pursuits, yet one should seek to be accepting with what is...its the double edged sword.

 

There is no reason to dwell in a painful existence, (being ignorant, not trying to make things better)

 

Therefore, all searches for comfort through improvement, whether it be scientific, or spiritual grasping (for help from 'above' which would equate with 'grace') is OK, as long as their is in fact 'someone' out there who is willing to lend a helping hand.

 

Where do prayers go?

 

Who hears them?

 

Science should examine this.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Does a description of neurotransmitter activity capture the emotion it's associated with? Knowing the physical correlates of an emotion doesn't imply having any knowledge whatsoever of the emotion itself as it occurs in the mind.

 

The point protector will deliberately miss is here.

[Protector]

Is it really ok?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-dozens-of-rohingya-muslims-massacred-by-buddhists-in-rakhine-burma/

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

spirituality = individual(ity)

religion = groups.


stay on your own damn topic, eh?

[iain]

A very nice post CrazyFox, it is a pleasure to read you.

Here are a few thoughts that you have inspired:

I would like to mention that this subject has already been studied scientifically, and over thousands of years; though one must study Sanskrit a little to understand this, the sense is lost in English; or one may have had a direct experience. Study is recommended as a practice within the safety of a lineage; in which the knowledge is passed on through the generations to those capable of grasping its deepest understanding, they are few and far between.

Grace, or "anugraha" as it is known in Sanskrit, does not come unless the aspirant is ready; given through Śaktipāta, either due to the conditions of that individual person being ripe; or their being close to or finding an able master who has been instructed in the ways of this.
I think my point here is that; the notion of the individual crying out to God for help, although within the denigration of Western society, is correct; It is perhaps not in this instance the best portrayal of what is to my mind humanities most efficient knowledge passing system.

Knowledge, like living beings aspires to reproduce its self ... The Knowledge it's self, is both transient and transcendental.

Thank you.

Edited October 15, 2014 by iain

[steve]

Does a description of neurotransmitter activity capture the emotion it's associated with? Knowing the physical correlates of an emotion doesn't imply having any knowledge whatsoever of the emotion itself as it occurs in the mind.

 

Or the experience itself.