Spirituality has to go

[iain]

Is it really ok?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-dozens-of-rohingya-muslims-massacred-by-buddhists-in-rakhine-burma/

 

Why ascribe natures worst and lowest behavioral traits to its endeavors to rise above them?

 

http://science.gaeatimes.com/2010/06/22/chimps-kill-neighbours-to-expand-territory-16830/

 

In so doing; you are arguably propagating the same pattern of behavior ...

Edited October 15, 2014 by iain

[Protector]

Or the experience itself.

 

Before this gets out of hand like the wonderment thing:

 

Fuck. Yes.

[dust]

Is it really ok?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-dozens-of-rohingya-muslims-massacred-by-buddhists-in-rakhine-burma/

 

What point are you trying to make? Religion is the cause? Spirituality made them do it?

 

The Seven Years’ War

The American Revolution

The French Revolution

The Napoleonic Wars

The Revolutions in the Americas

The Boer War

The Irish Revolution

The American Civil War

The Crimean War

The Spanish-American War

The Great War (WWI)

The Italian invasion of Ethiopia

The Spanish Civil War

Stalin’s invasions of Finland, the Baltic states, and Poland

World War II

The Chinese Revolution

The Cold War (including but not limited to the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, the American intervention in Grenada, the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan)

The Cultural Revolution (China)

The Khmer Rouge Revolution

The Falklands War

The Persian Gulf War between Iran & Iraq

The Persian Gulf War between the United Nations and Iraq

The Breakup of Yugoslavia

 

 

above, an inexhaustive list (edited from elsewhere) of wars/conflicts/huge death tolls caused by...people...(and aided, often, by science)

below, an entirely inexhaustive list of things created through the principles of science and used by...anyone...to kill

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon

[C T]

Is it really ok?

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-dozens-of-rohingya-muslims-massacred-by-buddhists-in-rakhine-burma/

Of course its not ok, but in this context, you have been dazzled into seeing only what the press wants you to see, all this from the inability to fully grasp how human ignorance can also be garbed in religious robes, doing despicable things, all of which they cleverly, or stupidly (depending if one is numb or dumb) proceed to hide behind the cloak of religious affiliation.

[dust]

Of course, that list covers fairly recent stuff. Let's not forget the Mongol, Roman, Persian, and...so many other invasions and conquests throughout history that were not even nominally related to religion

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_and_conquests

 

 

But of course, I forget again. We're right in the middle of a war on terror! entirely blameable on religion.

 

Good thing we have science atheists to help everyone out of the mess.

Edited October 15, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Nungali]

There was a time when Love was a concept that could only be understood spiritually.

Not anymore, we know what happens in the brain and know what patterns we follow

I bet ZOOM could write something about it around here

 

There are so many songs and stories about love that it's probably nice for some people to not know most stuff about it.

 

 

Now that I know a flower exists to attract a bee so it can reproduce a seed ... and so on ...

 

has the flower suddenly become unattractive and beautiful ?

 

Do I stop dancing with and riding the stallion of my interests and desires because I begin to understand my motivations and 'chemical consciousnesses ' ?

 

Will I stop driving my car because I begin to understand how it works?

 

No ... because I believe these things help us better to ride, drive and appreciate the vehicle we inhabit.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Nungali

[Infinity]

Is a belief system (religion for example) spiritual?

 

 

I would say a belief system accepts parts of spirit and denies other parts. And for me spirituality is maybe the embracing all of it and with that the expression of all of ourself.

 

 

I implied this before. The ground which you are standing on (science) is not that solid and thus your arguments are not reasonable.

 

 

Science says you are 99.999999999% empty space. You and the world are energy and non physical, this apparently is scientific fact?! Crazy!!!! This is said by the scientists which you are going on about, the clever people who produced nuclear power and things.

 

 

So what is and is not possible? We live in a large field of energy!? We are energy!? Without energy the shine in your eyes would not be there!? Your energy/ spirit gives you life!?

 

 

And so you say spirituality has to go, without spirit / energy you would go!? Spirituality is learning and expressing who we are the way I see it. I think your getting it confused with religious dogma, rigid belief systems and empty ritual. Rigid beliefs systems don't have to be religious they can be social, political and scientific too.

 

 

These particles that make up you does science know what keeps them together? Where they go on death? Just because they can see electrical movement in the brain is that definitive? Does science know the whole story? I may add here neither do I one of my goals is to get my own proof to see and understand for myself.

 

 

Quite surprised this thread is still going! So Protector are you reasonable or just a protagonist out to get a reaction?

 

 

There is a lot of bullshit out here and the only way to see through it is to use your reason and intuition. But just because there is bullshit does not mean there is not a big mystery and truth and until we have totally unravelled that mystery how can we say anything with complete certainty?

 

And I would say that you and I are the embodiment of that mystery. Our own mystification comes from the mystery of ourselves.

 

 

I don' think it helpful to disregard anything. I put things in pigeon holes, probably not, less believable, maybe, probable etc.. My advise would be to leave the rubbish and follow up on the things that ring true.

 

 

It all ends starts and ends here.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Infinity

[Marblehead]

 

Good thing we have science atheists to help everyone out of the mess.

And I wish I could do more but old men gotta' rest.

[Infinity]

One thing I will add before I sign off.

 

 

If you want a true meaningful answer then you need the right intention to ask the right question.

 

 

Best of luck.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Infinity

[Protector]

If America wasn't secular, every Christian denomination in it would be fighting for power. People would die because they weren't evangelical or protestant. That's what happening in middle east, what form of Islam should rule.

Guess what? I do think science will help everyone in this and that mess. When communist revolution kicked east orthodox out of Russia, there was some mandatory atheism happening. After things cooled down, Christianity came back with a vengeance. If people were more educated and less poor, it wouldn't have stayed.

In the western world, America for example, secular values took hold and people's decisions became heavily influenced from outside of religion. By all means, most Christian denominations should be agreeing with the westboro baptist church, but people can think for themselves to decide what's right. People also have time to get an education and think what they want without prosecution, because of that, atheism is on the rise.

While we fight the "war on terror" we are not going to war as Christians, but to the many different terrorists fighting the war, they see Christian soldiers fighting Muslim soldiers. Every single one of them thinks that the soldiers are fighting to destroy they Muslim faith, even if we just want oil or something. For us it's not religious, for them it is.

As long as they have to fight a religious war, they wont have time to live and learn and maybe decide that Islam is bullshit.

 

And that's just the religious crap. Spirituality is a form of an unorganized religion, to add to my definition which I mention 3 times in this thread. It's not a holy book or something that can be given a name. It's small bits of stupid that people allow into their lives.

Even I have failed and propagated one of the dumber ideas about patterns. You'd think if something works in one system, it might work in another. If it works in nature, it must work in a spiritual system. If we're made of energy then we can't live without it. If we can't live without it, we must get more. How do we get more? Obviously get more chi. Chi is energy, we need it to live. Science proves it. Chi is energy, energy is spirit, we are spirits, we are spirits having human experience.

HELL. NO.

If we keep going down this slippery slope, we won't know where we begin. And that's how it all starts, someone observed nature and through that they understood it just from that one glance. For things to exist, they must have a beginning. If the universe exists, it must have a beginning. If it has a beginning, someone must have created it. Who's that someone? God! And after enough genocides we have Jesus!

Now how does a scientist prove something. There's a theory, a hypothesis, testing, steps repeating over and over again. With each new found evidence, something becomes more and more likely. The doubt never disappears completely, but with enough testing it's enough to assume it's true. We can't see atoms, but we know they're there. We shoot electrons at them, make new elements, just mix things up in a glass. The theory of atom is so researched, that we can make correct predictions of what will happen in an experiment. Two hydrogens and one oxygen makes a water, two hydrogens and two oxygens make hydrogen peroxide. No mater how you mix it, it won't make wine.

Now, we have so many pictures of ghosts. A lot less pictures of bigfoot and nessie, thanks to good cellphone cameras. There are lots of ghost experiences, special ghost tours even. So, do we assume they're real and try to communicate via ouja board, which was invented by the same people who made monopoly.

There's an insane amount of claims and anecdotes about everything from angels to xenomorths(what's a magic thing that starts with Z?) If such thing happened to me, the answer to what happened would be "I don't know." Just because I think I've seen a ghost, it doesn't mean there was a ghost in front of me. It could have been a dude in a costume or slight vibration of my eyeball. If I can't recreate it and study it up close, I can't know for sure.

I don't have to trust a scientist about anything. I can find out if anything they say is true through study. You guys might be used to accepting things without evidence, but If you don't have any evidence and I can provide an alternative explanation to what happened. Your gods spirits and such, are useless waste of space. With more evidence they get less and less credible. But you don't even want to present evidence, that whatever happens in meditation is a what you say it was. Realistically, you have no idea what that was either, but it must be magic. It wasn't evidence, and what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

Now let's break it down.

You had a spiritual experience. No one can stop you from having these. An angel saved your life, or a train broke and you've met your true love. You want answers. You think you're safe, but you can be influenced by a religion telling you it was god or you can come to your own conclusion on the spot. You start believing in miracles, faeries, something. Your mind gets open to so many possibilities and the world outside of what science can see. But you don't really know what happened, if it really was that special. It's safer to assume it's not supernatural.

Next time your life is in danger, will you bet your life on another miracle or will you snap out of it?

I won't let you die.

[Protector]

Speaking of patterns, I'm seeing another one.

Whenever an atheist on the Internet is speaking to creationists, every single Christian gets offended.

I'm going to guess now, that some of you guys are not as spiritual as you say you are.

It really is more of a state of mind, you don't walk around admiring nature and human spirit. Just like Christians always forget about Jesus when they are not in church.

There's some baggage with being a Christian and with being more spiritual in general. You can assume a few things about a person when they say they're a Christian and they won't know what you're thinking. You think you can hang around a spiritual forum and let people who don't know anything about you assume things about taoism but, things happen

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36141-modern-medical-science-vs-alternative-treatment/

[Infinity]

I liked your response and maybe I will give a bigger answer later. One thing I will say is that science has not got all the answers and digs up many more questions.

 

 

What do you want anyway, truth. Reality I guess? No bullshit?

 

 

My reasoning is if you want that then you have to be true, be real. You have to give up your ideas and concepts about everything if you don't have 100% knowing. Which maybe what this thread is about? You are YOUR reality so you have to be yourself to see your reality. And once you can be 100% authentic and know yourself without illusion then you have found reality your reality. Maybe that reality is the same as other peoples or maybe not but speculation is just playing with a belief system. Until you have real knowledge how can you comment on what is and what is not. I don't think real knowledge / truth can be given but has to be claimed and realised by an individual's intent. That makes logical sense does it not? So go for it then come back and tell us all!

 

 

Nice of you to offer to not let me die but not sure it's up to you...

 

 

I re-read your post also earlier and don't think more chi equals more belief. I think less belief (little i self reflection mind) equals more chi / energy. Only mho.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Infinity

[Nungali]

Speaking of patterns, I'm seeing another one. .....

 

so am I ;

 

... Just like Christians always forget about Jesus when they are not in church. ...

 

You can assume a few things about a person ...

 

they won't know what you're thinking.

 

but you know what they are thinking apparently

[bax44]

Op underneath all of your huffing and puffing and bravado all I'm seeing is the same type of effort to control and pursuade that you accuse religions and spiritual gurus of. All I see is someone trying to tell us spirituality bad! Science good! As if things are this black and white. You admonish religion for its propensity to control and dictate but out of the other side of your mouth act as if there's only one true way. I hope you see the irony in this.I find your entire premise rather hypocritical and at this point nauseating. You had some valid points in certain posts so it's a shame.

Edited October 16, 2014 by bax44

[steve]

Before this gets out of hand like the wonderment thing:

 

Fuck. Yes.

 

I disagree, and that's OK with me.

[steve]

Op underneath all of your huffing and puffing and bravado all I'm seeing is the same type of effort to control and pursuade that you accuse religions and spiritual gurus of. All I see is someone trying to tell us spirituality bad! Science good! As if things are this black and white. You admonish religion but out of the other side of your mouth act as if there's only one true way.

I hope you see the irony in this.

 

Scientific fundamentalism... no less religious, just a different God.

[Protector]

Scientific fundamentalism... no less religious, just a different God.

 

What did I just say about experimentation?

 

Op underneath all of your huffing and puffing and bravado all I'm seeing is the same type of effort to control and pursuade that you accuse religions and spiritual gurus of. All I see is someone trying to tell us spirituality bad! Science good! As if things are this black and white. You admonish religion for its propensity to control and dictate but out of the other side of your mouth act as if there's only one true way. I hope you see the irony in this.I find your entire premise rather hypocritical and at this point nauseating. You had some valid points in certain posts so it's a shame.

 

 

So, science against religion, plus atheism since another thread desperately wants it to be a religion.

Science doesn't really see religion. Evolution says that we came from a common ancestor and that all life on Earth is related.

Most religions say that humans are special and created somehow. Evolution can prove itself, religion struggles.

Freaking Darwin wasn't an atheist with an agenda when he made his discoveries, he was a religious person and held back revealing his discoveries until he could be ready for the possible arguments and prejudice he would eventually face.

No matter how you twist it, religion is loosing. None of the magical claims are holding up and no one wants to take up James Randi's million dollar challenge.

But then, if you just have a problem with the tone I'm using when talking about all this. Then sorry, I can't think of a nicer way to put it.

[bax44]

You totally twisted what I was saying but I'm not surprised as it seems to be your mo. I'm not defending religion at all. I was using "religion" as an example to show the same type of behavior you are seemingly against in religion, etc you are using in this very thread parroting science as the only right way. I think you've made it pretty clear you feel science is the only way forward. Am I correct? Because if I am then your viewpoint is just as backwards and stone aged as these institutions/beliefs you are so valiantly striving against in this thread. I'm more interested why you are feeling the need to attach yourself so strongly to this belief, and are so headstrong in it that you feel the need to blather on with the boorish links, word games, etc. science is great but as many have pointed out is hardly omniscient and hardly infallible.

Edited October 16, 2014 by bax44

[C T]

You totally twisted what I was saying but I'm not surprised as it seems to be your mo. I'm not defending religion at all. I was using "religion" as an example to show the same type of behavior you are seemingly against in religion, etc you are using in this very thread parroting science as the only right way. I think you've made it pretty clear you feel science is the only way forward. Am I correct? Because if I am then your viewpoint is just as backwards and stone aged as these institutions/beliefs you are so valiantly striving against in this thread. I'm more interested why you are feeling the need to attach yourself so strongly to this belief, and are so headstrong in it that you feel the need to blather on with the boorish links, word games, etc. science is great but as many have pointed out is hardly omniscient and hardly infallible. Can't you see that in a way this is your religion? Except your gods and saviors are other human beings who may or may not have your best interest at heart. Sounds familiar. Tread lightly.

Please try to lower your expectations generously as the subject has now evolved from spirituality to religion, and clearly, the OP is unable to get a handle on the difference between the two, presuming both religion & spirituality to be like siamese twins when in fact they are more like distant relatives, visited briefly only during holidays and/or bereavements.

 

However, i do admire the tenacity with which the OP defends this quagmire of a premise upon which he built his case and now attempts to damage-control; knowing full well the battle is lost, yet he exercises guardianship like a faithful soldier. Whoever said faith only holds water for the religious-minded, eh?

[bax44]

Your last sentence said precisely what I was getting at and much less harshly than I did, CT.

[Protector]

I'm not against "that behavior in religion." I couldn't care less about the behavior and I don't care if I seem to use it.

If I am, what of it? What's the point of bringing it up?

I care about what are the facts. Islam is not wrong because it starts wars, it's wrong because the book is wrong.

I don't care that guns made by science are used in wars, I would make some better guns if I could.

Spirituality is pure waste of brain power because it's not based in reality.

The point is, the guns work and that a good thing, but the damn books don't work and that's the problem.

 

I haven't even came close to loosing, since the only positive thing I've hear so far about spirituality was that it makes people feel nice and so I shouldn't bother them. Who would like to stop running around in circles and finally try to sell it to me?

[C T]

You're merely clinging to sheer bravado, Protector. Your views have been rebutted since page 3.

[Protector]

Page 3 is a video with a pug in it, good one

[bax44]

I'm not against "that behavior in religion." I couldn't care less about the behavior and I don't care if I seem to use it.

If I am, what of it? What's the point of bringing it up?

I care about what are the facts. Islam is not wrong because it starts wars, it's wrong because the book is wrong.

I don't care that guns made by science are used in wars, I would make some better guns if I could.

Spirituality is pure waste of brain power because it's not based in reality.

The point is, the guns work and that a good thing, but the damn books don't work and that's the problem.

 

I haven't even came close to loosing, since the only positive thing I've hear so far about spirituality was that it makes people feel nice and so I shouldn't bother them. Who would like to stop running around in circles and finally try to sell it to me?

Who says the books don't work? They've worked for their intended purpose-control, for centuries. But you don't care about that part of it apparently...

Why would anyone try selling it to you? You're the one telling us it "has to go", so I highly doubt anyone here is really interested in selling spiritualityit to you. I know I ain't. No one else here is claiming "science has to go", so actually the burden of "selling" anything is on you and I gotta say you started off somewhat ok but now your like Apollo creed in rocky 4 vs the Russian. Your hobbling more than just a bit. I think if you go and re read your own posts objectively you might actually agree. And forgive me for thinking you were actually against all the harm religion has done as opposed to just being against the words that were written down eons ago.. It seems your good at manipulating words yourself, so again my original point stands. Do with it what you will, but at this point do you even know what you're arguing about?

Edited October 16, 2014 by bax44

[Protector]

My points:

 

In the opening post I'm arguing that everything spirituality values can be replaced.

That it opens the mind to magical thinking. ex. Doing the impossible with qi gong.

Simple thought can be transformed into a cult. ex. Guru's asking for money.

That it's a waste of energy and years of soul searching end up where you started

Lots of pretty word with no meaning. Words with meaning are long played out

Complete ignorance of the objective reality, things that stay true for every person.

 

It's a con, where you don't know you're being conned, because you're conning yourself