Why is the sage so useless?

[GrandmasterP]

Which begs the question...

" Do the sagacious marry?"

 

Edited September 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Which begs the question...

" Do the sagacious marry?"

 

It would not be appropriate for a person who has been married three time to respond to that question.

[GrandmasterP]

Optimism always triumphs over experience.

 

[dust]

The sage cannot help but be lazy. Once the enchantment has been lifted, his mind, body and heart are now completely unable to participate in the useful work in the world. However much he tries it won’t work.

 

 

For a while this upsets him too! But with time he learns to stand aloof from his fellow bipeds, and to view their work as dispassionately as he sees the work of the ant or the tree.

 

As I see it, your use of the terms "lazy" and "useless" refer to how "ordinary" people perceive a person who does no work -- generally not realising that though there are people who believe work needs to be done and are indeed too lazy to do it, in the wise man's case, it is because he has seen that there really is no work that needs to be done: the work itself is the useless thing. Nature takes care of itself, and one can get by simply eating fruit and singing songs.

 

On one hand, I see what you mean (if this is what you mean). On the other hand, I don't see that the wise man is literally supposed to do nothing. As discussed in another thread, 无为 is the practice of non-interference -- seeing when nothing needs to be done, and seeing when it does; guiding things along when it might be beneficial, but never exerting extreme force.

 

I also don't really like the idea of an entirely dispassionate wise man. He might look upon existence from a different perspective to the average person, but he can still be in love with it. To me, if humans have a function, it is the appreciation of life.

[GrandmasterP]

According to Bill Porter in his Chinese Hermit book the hermits he met were very busy people.

Building huts, cultivating their own food, walking down ( and then back up) their mountain to fetch supplies and visit/teach in the local villages.

Sounds like pretty hard work to me does hermitting, in China anyhoo.

Edited September 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[C T]

A sage may or may not be a hermit.

A hermit, well, may not be a sage.

 

No need to confuse the two.

 

Hermits are those who shun mundane life.

Sages, some, prosper by drawing inspiration from mundanity.

This is why a sage is called 'wise' -- they are above affectation,

as such, they have a knack to do everything with completeness.

Seeing as all tasks are undifferentiated, achievement is got before

even starting. Where can karma accrue in such a one?

 

What beings deem as hardship and toil, a sage speaks of the harvest.

 

Being above affectation, they have no need to retreat from conditions.

[GrandmasterP]

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit

 

Edited September 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Mystique Enigma]

One tends to speak out of Knowledge (learning of experiences of others) and Experience (learnings of experiences of others).

Rarely is there really any application of mind or have i gotten that wrong and there is way too much application of mind ???

 

Must be why ignorance is bliss...

ahh well

[thelerner]

Hasn't worked, has it?

 

 

Love that 'honeydo'.

I am having that one.

To be considered useless takes consistency, dedication and willingness to break several hundred dollars worth of home appliances. The washing machine and dish washer are easy. To destroy an oven requires disabling several smoke alarms and daring edgemenship between melting down the unit and blowing up the house.

 

But once a certain core incompetency is established you're pretty much home (work) free.

 

mostly kidding.

 

 

To add positively to the conversation I'll say in Taoism the (seemingly) useless survives. The gnarled tree is not the one cut down. The sage who talks and publishes little can go on with his research and learning without interruption.

Edited September 12, 2014 by thelerner

[Apech]

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit

 

 

Translates as "Never die on a coach of prostitutes, OK?" ... for the non-Latin scholars.

[Nikolai1]

Are you perhaps using the term 'useless' in a somewhat pejorative sense Nikolai?

Almost as if it were a 'bad' thing or state of being?

 

All I'm saying is that if you want to cultivate yourself, you're definitely going to get a lot of criticism for doing so.

 

I think of lot of us have the same hope as Daeluin expresses:

 

 

We radiate wholeness in all directions, and others are healed by our very presence, even as they think it was their own work.

 

But the reality is: for many, perhaps most of the people, the sage is just a useless, simple-minded waste of space. If we think that there are important, purposeful things to be accomplished in this world, then the sage is not your kind of man.

 

What has really brought this home to me is reading about Ramana Maharshi, surely India's most loved saint of the 20th Century. While some people adored and worshipped this man as quite literally a living God, others simply could not justify the fact that he spent his whole life sitting on the sofa, saying and doing very little indeed. Even Paul Brunton wished that Sri Ramana would go out and be a man of action in the manner of, say, Gandhi.

 

And then I idly turn to the Chaung-tzu, and even by Chapter 2 we read: 'while the ordinary people rush around, the sage seems stupid and ignorant'. In Chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching we have the sage lamenting this in himself:

 

 

 

What a fool I am!

What a muddled mind I have!

All men are bright, bright:

I alone am dim, dim.

All men are sharp, sharp:

I alone am mum, mum!

Bland like the ocean,

Aimless like the wafting gale.

 

I'm telling you, if we want to carry on with this cultivation lark, we have to get used to being thoroughly unfit for nearly all of what gets called useful and practical work, And we'd better develop a thick skin too, because in this day and age people only recognise outward fruits and will strongly criticise anyone who dares to abstain from work and do nothing that the world calls productive.

[Apech]

I'm telling you, if we want to carry on with this cultivation lark, we have to get used to being thoroughly unfit for nearly all of what gets called useful and practical work, And we'd better develop a thick skin too, because in this day and age people only recognise outward fruits and will strongly criticise anyone who dares to abstain from work and do nothing that the world calls productive.

 

It's not easy but I'm up for it

[zanshin]

A lot of really busy people don't seem to actually get much done either. What use is anything? The universe can take care of itself just fine without all these stressed out people.

[soaring crane]

When my mother was here a few weeks ago, she made a side comment about me to my wife, along the lines of, 'He never seems to do anything, but he somehow or other gets everything done. He's always been like that. Used to drive us nuts when he was in school'

 

See my sigline :-)

[Marblehead]

Translates as "Never die on a coach of prostitutes, OK?" ... for the non-Latin scholars.

I think that would be a nice ending.

[GrandmasterP]

Do prostitutes need much coaching?

[9th]

What is the Chuang Tzu story about the tree that is never chopped down? I'm sure you all know it better than me.

 

 

A certain carpenter Shih was travelling to the Ch'i State. On reaching Shady Circle, he saw a sacred li tree in the temple to the God of Earth. It was so large that its shade could cover a herd of several thousand cattle. It was a hundred spans in girth, towering up eighty feet over the hilltop, before it branched out. A dozen boats could be cut out of it. Crowds stood gazing at it, but the carpenter took no notice, and went on his way without even casting a look behind. His apprentice however took a good look at it, and when he caught up with his master, said, "Ever since I have handled an adze in your service, I have never seen such a splendid piece of timber. How was it that you, Master, did not care to stop and look at it?"

 

"Forget about it. It's not worth talking about," replied his master. "It's good for nothing. Made into a boat, it would sink; into a coffin, it would rot; into furniture, it would break easily; into a door, it would sweat; into a pillar, it would be worm-eaten. It is wood of no quality, and of no use. That is why it has attained its present age."

 

When the carpenter reached home, he dreamt that the spirit of the tree appeared to him in his sleep and spoke to him as follows: "What is it you intend to compare me with? Is it with fine-grained wood? Look at the cherry-apple, the pear, the orange, the pumelo, and other fruit bearers. As soon as their fruit ripens they are stripped and treated with indignity. The great boughs are snapped off, the small ones scattered abroad. Thus do these trees by their own value injure their own lives. They cannot fulfill their allotted span of years, but perish prematurely because they destroy themselves for the admiration of the world. Thus it is with all things. Moreover, I tried for a long period to be useless. Many times I was in danger of being cut down, but at length I have succeeded, and so have become exceedingly useful to myself. Had I indeed been of use, I should not be able to grow to this height. Moreover, you and I are both created things. Have done then with this criticism of each other. Is a good-for-nothing fellow in imminent danger of death a fit person to talk of a good-for-nothing tree?"

[Daeluin]

I'm telling you, if we want to carry on with this cultivation lark, we have to get used to being thoroughly unfit for nearly all of what gets called useful and practical work, And we'd better develop a thick skin too, because in this day and age people only recognise outward fruits and will strongly criticise anyone who dares to abstain from work and do nothing that the world calls productive.

 

It isn't just about doing nothing... it's about creating harmony.

It isn't about doing nothing and being lazy... it's about working hard, internally rather than externally.

 

Critical people tend to be ambitious and look down at people who fail at reaching lofty ambitions. However, these same people go home while the humble night workers clean their office. The critics tend to all but ignore the cleaners, who are pretty invisible to them - they aren't called lazy, because they do their work sincerely.

 

It isn't about doing nothing, it's about blending in and being invisible, so that the world has nothing to prevent the lofty goals of the inner work.

 

When I target a bank to rob, that bank might well defeat me. But when I set my sights on 100 banks to rob, one simple bank is less likely to become an unsurmountable obstacle. (Disclaimer - don't rob banks please. Respect what the Man has built and learn to read between the lines.)

 

The goals of alchemy are set on the infinite, and because of this, there is never any reaping of what is sown. One's foundation is upon what is low, and that is where one's intention remains. Even as one is filled with the strength of ten thousand dragons with the refined celestial energy of countless nebulas, one pays no heed, continuing to walk forward step by step, remaining ever humble and flowing in a harmonious dance amidst the mundane unfolding of every day life. People look, and see something useless, and pay it no heed. Thus the Sage holds most dear compassion, frugality, and not daring to be ahead of anything else.

 

No, this doesn't happen overnight. We shouldn't avoid responsibilities facing us, and if others are dependent upon us there is no reason to let them down hard - but perhaps they would be better served by another who can better meed their needs. We should simply learn to follow the path of least resistance. Learn to identify if we are in a situation which is so contrived that it requires unnecessary energy to keep it from falling to dust. Is this situation serving us? If not why continue to support it? If others find value in it, we do not judge them, we simply wait for the tao to invite us to move on to what is next on our path, flowing with humility and emptiness until no contrivances remain.

[beyonder]

"Hexagram 18, nine at the top means:

He does not serve kings and princes,

Sets himself higher goals.

Not every man has an obligation to mingle in the affairs of the world. There are some who are developed to such a degree that they are justified in letting the world go its own way and refusing to enter public life with a view to reforming it. But this does not imply a right to remain idle or to sit back and merely criticize. Such withdrawal is justified only when we strive to realize in ourselves the higher aims of mankind. For although the sage remains distant from the turmoil of daily life, he creates incomparable human values for the future."

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#18

 

"Hexagram 20, six at the beginning means:

Boy like contemplation.

For an inferior man, no blame.

For a superior man, humiliation.

This means contemplation from a distance, without comprehension. A man of influence is at hand, but his influence is not understood by the common people. This matters little in the case of the masses, for they benefit by the actions of the ruling sage whether they understand them or not. But for a superior man it is a disgrace. He must not content himself with a shallow, thoughtless view of prevailing forces; he must contemplate them as a connected whole and try to understand them."

http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#20

Edited September 13, 2014 by beyonder

[Marblehead]

Do prostitutes need much coaching?

If the numbers on the paper are high enough little more than that is needed.

[Nungali]

Hmmm ... regarding my essence of laziness in relation to the extremely little knowledge I have of the Way of Tao (no, I dont let lack of understanding stand in the way of my emulations ) and tree trimming (plus a lot of other issues) ;

 

It 'saves a lot of trouble' to 'nip it in the bud' - that is .... if I expend minimal effort now in the right way and direction I will be able to slack off more later. My exceptions are if its fun .... like my tree surgeon mate that just loves dropping giant trees in the most dangerous and close situations ( a big one 4 metres away from my wall and surrounded by other large trees and gardens - perfect job ... his efficiency was 'Tao in action' - whatever that means ) .

[Marblehead]

Speaking of dropping trees, let's see if this link works:

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=765780856820188&fref=nf

Edited September 13, 2014 by Marblehead

[Nungali]

Nice ! Dont know why he didnt pull the stairs and decking up first though ? My one could not be dropped sideways in any direction ... it was about just over half the thickness of that one. The only available space was an area around the base of the tree smaller than its drip line ... a lot smaller.

 

No film though

[soaring crane]

Speaking of dropping trees, let's see if this link works:

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=765780856820188&fref=nf

 

yeah, link works and, OMG bravo!

[steve]

I think that the sage is useless because there is nothing to be done...

All is perfected as it is.