Pain and Zen

[Tibetan_Ice]

I am currently reading a book on Zen called "The Three Pillars of Zen".

 

I read this part:

 

STUDENT: About an hour ago during zazen all at once the pain in my legs disappeared and before I knew it tears began to flow and I felt myself melting inside. At the same time a great feeling of love enveloped me. What is the meaning of this?

 

ROSHI: Zazen done with energy and devotion dispels our sense of alienation from people and things. The ordinary person’s thinking is dualistic; one thinks in terms of oneself and of that which is antithetical to this “self,” and this is what causes all our misery, because it gives rise to antagonism and grasping, which in turn lead to suffering. But through zazen this dichotomy gradually vanishes. Your compassion then naturally deepens and widens, since your feelings and thoughts no longer are focused on a non-existent “I.” This is what is happening to you. It is of course highly gratifying, but you must go further. Continue your concentration wholeheartedly.

Kapleau, Roshi P. (2013-12-18). The Three Pillars of Zen (Kindle Locations 2100-2107). Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

 

I can't help but feel that the basic premise here, that overcoming the pain is some form of spiritual breakthrough, is false.

 

I went to the dentist a while ago to get a bridge put in. When they were taking an imprint of my teeth by placing a dental appliance in my mouth filled with quick-drying-cement, something happened and I found myself in a horrible amount of pain. I think it may be related to the fact that I have one tooth with a rather large mercury amalgam filling in it that was reacting to the chemicals in the 'cement' that they had mixed.

 

I was in a horrible amount of pain, similar to the effect when you touch a piece of metal, like a spoon or metal appliance directly on the filling.

 

I had to hold the appliance in my mouth for two minutes! I was screaming and shocked. Such pain!

I used all my willpower and endured the two minutes of intense pain. A little crowd of people whom were curious about what the screaming was all about soon gathered.

 

Anyway, after that, having endured the torture and great pain, I felt like I was high. It was a great feeling. I was so elated that I didn't even consider the high-priced payment that followed.

The effect lasted for about 1 hour. I felt like I was floating on clouds.

 

My point is this: sure, great amounts of pain will eventually release endorphins in the brain and make you high. It has nothing to do with spirituality. I laughed when I read about the response from the Zen teacher to the student, especially when I remembered the effect the intense pain caused me from visiting the dentist's office. Reminds me of "runner's high" or "jogger's high".

 

Granted, great pain can cause some interesting states of mind, but where except in Zen do you find the idea that overcoming pain or pushing it unti the brain releases joy-juice is something spiritual?

 

Question: Once you overcome the pain from sitting extended amounts of time, does it ever come back in later sessions? If it does, then it isn't any form of accomplishment, is it?

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[ChiForce]

Pain the legs? Depending on how long is the meditation? When the chi is active and begins to circulate, you don't feel the pain in the legs. I can meditate for an hour in a half lotus position. I can't do a full lotus though (not flexible enough). To get the chi to circulate into the legs, yeah, you need to have your chi channels open, including the heart chakras and the center channels. Yeah, when the center channels are open, you feel compassion and connections to others. After a while, you begin to see and to think towards the world with a deep sense of compassion and connection, maybe even in a telepathic sense.

 

 

Oh, I am a cyclist and frequently can ride 90 miles in 6 hours per week. What gets me through these rides is not me having compassionate thoughts of others. Hehehehe.... Is pure will. The will to endure and suffer. And my body's ability to recover quickly after a short burst of hard effort.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ChiForce

[Mark Foote]

I am currently reading a book on Zen called "The Three Pillars of Zen".

 

I read this part:

 

 

 

I can't help but feel that the basic premise here, that overcoming the pain is some form of spiritual breakthrough, is false.

 

 

... My point is this: sure, great amounts of pain will eventually release endorphins in the brain and make you high. It has nothing to do with spirituality. I laughed when I read about the response from the Zen teacher to the student, especially when I remembered the effect the intense pain caused me from visiting the dentist's office. Reminds me of "runner's high" or "jogger's high".

 

Granted, great pain can cause some interesting states of mind, but where except in Zen do you find the idea that overcoming pain or pushing it unti the brain releases joy-juice is something spiritual?

 

Question: Once you overcome the pain from sitting extended amounts of time, does it ever come back in later sessions? If it does, then it isn't any form of accomplishment, is it?

 

 

In "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau and the Three Pillars of Zen", the students and disciples of Philip Kapleau offer their experiences with Zen study under Kapleau after reading Three Pillars of Zen. Mostly, they were drawn to study by the stories of sudden enlightenment experiences in the book, but none of them had such an experience (unless I missed something); many were disappointed, all of them came to terms with this lack of verification of the authenticity of what was described in one way or another.

 

Your explanation of how someone would come to feel that euphoria and lack of pain is the best I've heard.

 

The teacher I met whom I respected greatly said "take your time with the lotus". This was Kobun Chino Otogawa. Kobun also said that he could sit the lotus without pain or numbness, and when he said it he was completing the third of three seven day sesshins.

 

I can sit the lotus without pain for thirty or forty minutes, but I only do it once or twice a day. Last time I sat a three-day sesshin, I had to go to half lotus toward the end of the period a couple of times at the end of the day, and I had considerable numbness sometimes; I'm still working on it! Anyway, when I sit without pain, it's not because of any ecstatic endorphin rush after pain; it's because I can relax and allow my sense of location to find expression in the activity of the posture. So to speak. So it's not something I do through willful activity, and although a lot of things cross my mind it's the necessity of breath that remains in the end, returning me to my senses.

 

Point of that dissertation being that I think you are right that something unusual happened for that individual when the pain stopped, but most Zen teachers advise that sitting with pain is likely, especially in sesshin. I guess Kobun was unusual in that he didn't sit in pain, but he started very young as the son of a Zen teacher in Japan. I think Westerners can learn to sit the lotus without pain, based on my own experience, and I like to think if I knew then what I know now I could have sat without pain when I started. Might not be true, because what I really have is a string of experiences and understandings born of necessity that are more or less automatic with the posture and with the duration of the posture.

 

"When at last you arrive at towering up like a wall miles-high, you will finally know that there aren't so many things."

 

A favorite quote, from Yuanwu in "Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu", translated by Cleary.

[GrandmasterP]

Good thread topic.

I've read a lot of Zen books and a recurring theme is just how much zazaen hurts the legs.

Some writers like the late Peter Matthiesen really go to town on the pain issue.

He talks about being 'almost blinded by the pain' after a sesshin in one book.

Brad Warner ( Hardcore Zen etc) the punk zennist is another, he's a full lotus booster and nothing else will do as far as Brad's concerned but he talks about how much it hurts with a degree almost of relish.

To me it's very zen to come up with a cultivation based around cushions and comfy padded mats and then devise a truly uncomfortable way to sit on said potentially nice and comfy items.

Maybe there's a degree of either macho or masochism in there too.

IMO there's no merit in making oneself uncomfortable.

Edited June 9, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ChiForce]

Good thread topic.

I've read a lot of Zen books and a recurring theme is just how much zazaen hurts the legs.

Some writers like the late Peter Matthiesen really go to town on the pain issue.

He talks about being 'almost blinded by the pain' after a sesshin in one book.

Brad Warner ( Hardcore Zen etc) the punk zennist is another, he's a full lotus booster and nothing else will do as far as Brad's concerned but he talks about how much it hurts with a degree almost of relish.

To me it's very zen to come up with a cultivation based around cushions and comfy padded mats and then devise a truly uncomfortable way to sit on said potentially nice and comfy items.

Maybe there's a degree of either macho or masochism in there too.

IMO there's no merit in making oneself uncomfortable.

Is it really pain??? I never stop meditating because of leg numbness. I stop because my mind wasn't going anywhere after an hour of meditation. Trust me on this...if you can ride 6 hours on the bike, with over 5k ft of climbing, with few energy bars and maybe a muffin and chocolate milk in the mid way rest stop, sitting and meditating in either half lotus or full lotus posture isn't that bad.

[GrandmasterP]

Going off what I've read the writers who do so big up the pain side of it.

I've no experience myself as if something hurts then I immediately stop doing it.

I suspect, but can't know; that some of those writers are a tad masochistic.

Edited June 9, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Mark Foote]

"Three Pillars of Zen" was my introduction to the actual practice of zazen (using the illustrations in the back). For that, I am grateful; I had already concluded, thanks to Alan Watts, that no amount of intellectual understanding was going to make any difference in my life (meaning I read his books and understood what he was saying but I was no different for understanding it).

 

GrandmasterP, can you give a link for something like this?--

 

 

...he's a full lotus booster and nothing else will do as far as Brad's concerned but he talks about how much it hurts with a degree almost of relish.

 

I'm curious because I've never heard him talk about pain or how much it hurts. Not sure he sits the lotus, either, but if you say so-- I knew it was full or half, but never really heard him specify. Or maybe I have, and he mixed up saying he sat lotus with advice that the half-lotus was ok. I'm confused!

Edited June 14, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Jetsun]

I can't help but feel that the basic premise here, that overcoming the pain is some form of spiritual breakthrough, is false.

 

I don't think that is the basic premise here. It looks to me that the source of your pain and the pain in the persons legs are different and both of your highs are different. I don't think the issue is about overcoming pain, it is about recognising that which isn't in separation which is what the master was talking about, the release of pain is just a symptom of that recognition because the large proportion of our psychosomatic tensions are bound around maintaining the sense of separate self.

[GrandmasterP]

"Three Pillars of Zen" was my introduction to the actual practice of zazen (using the illustrations in the back). For that, I am grateful; I had already concluded, thanks to Alan Watts, that no amount of intellectual understanding was going to make any difference in my life (meaning I read his books and understood what he was saying but I was no different for understanding it).

 

GrandmasterP, can you give a link for something like this?--

 

 

 

 

I'm curious because I've never heard him talk about pain or how much it hurts. Not sure he sits the lotus, either, but if you say so-- I knew it was full or half, but never really heard him specify. Or maybe I have, and he mixed up saying he sat lotus with advice that the half-lotus was ok. I'm confused!

Hi Mark,

Here's something from Hardcore zen by Brad and I seem to remember ( but it has been a while) reading similar in one of his books...

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/zazen-is-balance-pose.html

Is the link...

"I worked at the posture. It hurt. But it was worthwhile. I'm glad I put in the effort and I'm glad I had a teacher who pushed me to do so, who saw that I could do the posture if I tried."

 

.....

Hope that helps.

Edited June 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Yascra]

I can't help but feel that the basic premise here, that overcoming the pain is some form of spiritual breakthrough, is false.

hm, I think you simply got that wrong.

If you're doing meditation correctly, that should change your chi flows.

What that guy experienced basically had not much to do with whether he was enduring pain first, it was an effect of meditation, and might well be lasting for quite some time afterwards. Could have happened in other postures as well

 

Your dentist story is a different thing. A human body just reacts with giving you partial self-anaesthesia if you're exposed to overwhelming pain after some time. That might give you a feeling of being high, actually it's a means to help you survive, so you wouldn't feel some great injury first and might be able to have your body brought to a safe place for recovery. That's just a short-termed biological reaction.

Opening of energy channels during meditation and resultant relief is a different thing, and yes, one effect might be that legs or other parts of one's body don't hurt any more due to the good chi-flow.

 

Btw, I do like core zen teachings, but I don't like those masochistic tendencies that seem to have become part of the religious expression of that system. I think a wise person wouldn't need to torture themselves to achieve accomplishments. You can't force wisdom to grow anyway.

 

Edited June 15, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

"I worked at the posture. It hurt. But it was worthwhile. I'm glad I put in the effort and I'm glad I had a teacher who pushed me to do so, who saw that I could do the posture if I tried."

.....

Hope that helps.

Hm, I don't know... As mentioned in the meditation-posture-thread, I'm using that position as good as I do/can because I feel it's comfortable. That might be the case because I accidetally started to do some minutes of stretching my legs every evening before going to sleep.. Came across that years ago when I was training some simple dancing, and got used to that as otherwise I felt my leg-muscles felt like "clumped". I don't like going to sleep without bringing my muscles at ease any more. As that have been years of extremely slight exercise that might have improved my start with it (began with that first stretching exercises when I was a teenager). Otherwise I'd hardly do that now, I suppose. I mean, it's about relaxation of the mind, and I for my part tend to find that more easy without too much pain.

 

And another aspect, though it might be another topic, but I for my part really feel that 20 minutes EVERY day are more wirthwhile than 1hour of practice every three days. Can't tell about anybody's practice of course, so I'm not specifically adressing anyone, but if it's such a torture for you.. Hm, maybe find a softer way than what you're doing? And most important about meditation is really that you do it, and regulary at best. Improvement of chi-flows will come very natural then. At least that's my experience.

 

Edited June 15, 2014 by Yascra

[steve]

I think the OP is missing the point as well.

The student's question was censored and the roshi's reply was narrowly misinterpreted.

 

The student in the excerpt experiences a release of pain, tears, an inner melting, and the experience of bliss.

This is about much more than enduring physical pain.

The roshi responded with a discussion of the basic tenet that suffering is a function of fundamental ignorance of our true nature.

As that ignorance is gradually extinguished we are able to more easily release pain, whether physical, emotional, or psychological; and we experience great bliss, the ecstasy of our fundamental nature, and great sadness, the ecstasy of non-duality with all other sentient beings.

This is a very standard and basic question and reply in Buddhist training.

 

The basic premise is not that overcoming physical pain is a spiritual breakthrough.

That certainly does occur - reference the Tibetan monks who self-immolate and make no sign whatsoever that they feel pain.

Think of other martyrs in popular mythology and religious stories.

Perhaps the OP has not yet reached that level of attainment, so a visit to the dentist can be quite unpleasant.

That doesn't mean that others can't achieve quite a profound control of their physical and emotional pain through these methods.

 

Certainly there is a biological basis for limiting intense pain. It allows us to be better hunters and allows us to die in the jaws of a predator without quite as much suffering. Think of the relaxation and submission of the prey at the end of its life. The pain in the legs things is mostly a Western phenomenon. The Japanese sit in seiza and Tibetans, Indians, and others sit cross legged much of their life starting in childhood. Asian yogis begin practice in childhood very often. It's mainly in the West that folks come to these practices after decades of sitting in chairs and developing stiff hips. And very few prepare adequately for the strange postures. Nearly anyone can stretch and achieve full lotus in a matter of a few months to a year. Age is a limiting factor for some, however, due to hip arthritis.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

I think the OP is missing the point as well.

The student's question was censored and the roshi's reply was narrowly misinterpreted.

 

The student in the excerpt experiences a release of pain, tears, an inner melting, and the experience of bliss.

This is about much more than enduring physical pain.

The roshi responded with a discussion of the basic tenet that suffering is a function of fundamental ignorance of our true nature.

As that ignorance is gradually extinguished we are able to more easily release pain, whether physical, emotional, or psychological; and we experience great bliss, the ecstasy of our fundamental nature, and great sadness, the ecstasy of non-duality with all other sentient beings.

This is a very standard and basic question and reply in Buddhist training.

 

The basic premise is not that overcoming physical pain is a spiritual breakthrough.

 

That certainly does occur - reference the Tibetan monks who self-immolate and make no sign whatsoever that they feel pain.

Think of other martyrs in popular mythology and religious stories.

Perhaps the OP has not yet reached that level of attainment, so a visit to the dentist can be quite unpleasant.

That doesn't mean that others can't achieve quite a profound control of their physical and emotional pain through these methods.

 

Certainly there is a biological basis for limiting intense pain. It allows us to be better hunters and allows us to die in the jaws of a predator without quite as much suffering. Think of the relaxation and submission of the prey at the end of its life. The pain in the legs things is mostly a Western phenomenon. The Japanese sit in seiza and Tibetans, Indians, and others sit cross legged much of their life starting in childhood. Asian yogis begin practice in childhood very often. It's mainly in the West that folks come to these practices after decades of sitting in chairs and developing stiff hips. And very few prepare adequately for the strange postures. Nearly anyone can stretch and achieve full lotus in a matter of a few months to a year. Age is a limiting factor for some, however, due to hip arthritis.

Steve,

Controlling pain or overcoming pain has nothing to do with spirituality. It has more to do with hypnotism or some kind of macho demeanor. If it were that simple then every spiritual tradition would be doing it, teaching how to overcome pain..

 

If you sit in zazen, or perfectly still and straight for an hour, at some point your body sensations will drop away. If you are particularly attentive, you might also notice that your arms may feel like they are not in the position that you placed them in. If, at that point, you had pain in the legs, the pain is not gone, it is sill there... It is just that it becomes so far away that it doesn't phase you anymore. It becomes informational as opposed to sensational.

 

That is the point where the body melts away that the student is talking about. If one was in great pain before the melting, there is great relief but that relief is not spiritual. The melting is the separation of the senses from the conscious mind. It is also known as pratyahara, withdrawal of the senses. This can also be accomplished through pranayama, or breath control, hypnotism, anesthetics, drug induced stupors, alcohol...

 

The melting is a good sign, for it is a step to deeper states of consciousness during meditation, but it really has nothing to do with overcoming pain. There is no need to torture one's self with pain.

 

The Zen master is deceptively trying to convince the student that pratyahara is realization of no self, which quite frankly is a pile of bullshit.

 

As for your statement about the OP not yet reaching that level of attainment, well it is not a level of attainment. It is a parlor trick and not something to strive for. It has nothing to with spirituality.

 

Edited June 16, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

hm, I think you simply got that wrong.

If you're doing meditation correctly, that should change your chi flows.

What that guy experienced basically had not much to do with whether he was enduring pain first, it was an effect of meditation, and might well be lasting for quite some time afterwards. Could have happened in other postures as well

 

...

 

 

I think you have to define the specific meditation you are talking about because all meditations are not about stimulating or changing your chi flows. Some meditations are about stilling chi flows, or leaving them be until they dissolve away revealing the clarity and emptiness beyond. Any chi that flows is a wind, and all winds kick up dust.

 

I agree with your statement that it has very little to do with pain. But a zen master would never say that.

 

The effect of melting the body does not last long at all, it goes away as soon as the sense consciousnesses are reconnected.

 

 

Your dentist story is a different thing. A human body just reacts with giving you partial self-anaesthesia if you're exposed to overwhelming pain after some time. That might give you a feeling of being high, actually it's a means to help you survive, so you wouldn't feel some great injury first and might be able to have your body brought to a safe place for recovery. That's just a short-termed biological reaction.

Opening of energy channels during meditation and resultant relief is a different thing, and yes, one effect might be that legs or other parts of one's body don't hurt any more due to the good chi-flow.

 

 

The pain during full lotus is due to the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the blood. Not only is it toxic, but it expands and stretches the veins and arteries, which is very painful. It damages the body. The pain is the body telling you to stop it. That is not what meditation is all about, is it?

 

But to answer that question, just because you overcome the pain once does not mean you have overcome the pain permanently.

It is no form of accomplishment. It does not liberate. It is a temporary state somewhat like deep sleep.

 

[Yascra]

Hahaha, so it never was about discussing a question, but just about you thinking you're higher than that particular master and knowing better than anybody else?

 

The Zen master is deceptively trying to convince the student that pratyahara is realization of no self, which quite frankly is a pile of bullshit.

If you'd read his explanation carefully, this is what he does NOT claim. Actually I don't need to care about that guy too much, as he's not my teacher, but I'd say he's not doing a bad job there. The main point anyway is the message that the student has to go further.

 

But from both of your answers I'd conclude that reading carefully is not one of your major talents.

 

I think you have to define the specific meditation you are talking about

no. Any state of concentration affects your chi.

Any chi that flows is a wind, and all winds kick up dust.

no, real chi is not wind, and if somewhere there's no dust, there's nothing to be kicked up.

 

The effect of melting the body does not last long at all, it goes away as soon as the sense consciousnesses are

wow, you must have had it dozens if times to be able to tell.

 

The pain during full lotus is due to the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the blood. Not only is it toxic, but it expands and stretches the veins and arteries, which is very painful. It damages the body.

actually my claim was that it does NOT necessarily hurt.

 

But to answer that question, just because you overcome the pain once does not mean you have overcome the pain permanently.

It is no form of accomplishment. It does not liberate. It is a temporary state somewhat like deep sleep.

maybe read less Milarepa and practice more?

And I really didn't ask you to lecture me, I thought you were interested in other's opinions, not in pushing through yours. I'm not willing to argue with you.

[rex]

Question: Once you overcome the pain from sitting extended amounts of time, does it ever come back in later sessions? If it does, then it isn't any form of accomplishment, is it?

 

Unless one's training to deal with pain with equanimity. There a view that it's good discipine not to be perturbed by hardships in one's practice. Don't fancy cultivating deep vein thrombosis myself, so not for me. I believe that pain doesn't occur if one is well versed in full lotus and has purified energy channels.

 

Interesting story about your dental work. Teeth are spiritually significant (the Hebrew word for Spirit is Shin which translates as tooth). I've read somewhere that having major dental work done is spiritually significant - something to do with realignment and purification ...

[steve]

Steve,

Controlling pain or overcoming pain has nothing to do with spirituality. It has more to do with hypnotism or some kind of macho demeanor. If it were that simple then every spiritual tradition would be doing it, teaching how to overcome pain..

 

If you sit in zazen, or perfectly still and straight for an hour, at some point your body sensations will drop away. If you are particularly attentive, you might also notice that your arms may feel like they are not in the position that you placed them in. If, at that point, you had pain in the legs, the pain is not gone, it is sill there... It is just that it becomes so far away that it doesn't phase you anymore. It becomes informational as opposed to sensational.

 

That is the point where the body melts away that the student is talking about. If one was in great pain before the melting, there is great relief but that relief is not spiritual. The melting is the separation of the senses from the conscious mind. It is also known as pratyahara, withdrawal of the senses. This can also be accomplished through pranayama, or breath control, hypnotism, anesthetics, drug induced stupors, alcohol...

 

The melting is a good sign, for it is a step to deeper states of consciousness during meditation, but it really has nothing to do with overcoming pain. There is no need to torture one's self with pain.

 

The Zen master is deceptively trying to convince the student that pratyahara is realization of no self, which quite frankly is a pile of bullshit.

 

As for your statement about the OP not yet reaching that level of attainment, well it is not a level of attainment. It is a parlor trick and not something to strive for. It has nothing to with spirituality.

 

 

We will have to simply disagree...

 

A (?The) fundamental focus of Buddhism is to relieve sentient beings of suffering.

Suffering, in part, is resistance to our aversions and things which cause us pain of any sort.

In fact, pain is a simple physiological experience, like seeing a very bright light or hearing a loud, startling noise.

It does not become suffering until the "I" gets involved and tries to avoid it.

When that "I" is less prominent in our lives, the physiological response we label 'pain' remains, but the suffering part eases.

This is a very important point because it is why Buddhist practices are of such profound value to people who suffer.

Hence spirituality is clearly associated with our relationship to pain, whether physical, emotional, or psychological.

 

I agree that there is no need to torture oneself with pain.

Life will do that to us from time to time, whether we choose it or not.

We all deal with pain, in our lives, in our practice, and on internet forums.

I think you are overemphasizing the brief mention of pain in this excerpt.

It is mentioned, almost in passing, by the student and never mentioned at all in the master's reply.

 

In my experience with Japanese martial arts, there is a cultural proclivity toward discipline and overcoming adversity, even physical pain, which is much less present in other cultures. Even if it is our judgement that this is an unskillful approach (no opinion intended here), it does not negate the master's response which never addressed physical pain specifically.

 

In my perspective, if you are interested at all in that, you're making this all about the pain and dismissing everything else the master (and student) says as a result - throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as they say.

I don't see it that way.

[GrandmasterP]

Our MA teacher had a saying...

" Pain is just weakness leaving the body."

The general response from us students to that being...

" OUCH!".

 

Edited June 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Yascra]

Our MA teacher had a saying...

" Pain is just weakness leaving the body."

The general response from us students to that being...

" OUCH!".

 

Hm, not every teacher is a good person, right?

Hope you left that guy?

[ChiDragon]

I believe that the "pain" related to Zen is emphasized more on mental than physical.

[Rara]

Our MA teacher had a saying...

" Pain is just weakness leaving the body."

The general response from us students to that being...

" OUCH!".

 

Haha, same here!

 

But it's true. Conditioning. How many MMA fighters get blasted in the head yet keep focus on their opponent and their hands up?

 

Pain is fine if you're training to use the conditioning. I.e army etc.

 

Being sat in full lotus for hours inviting numbness and pain seems pointless to me. All it does is switch you off to the pain after a while, only to awaken and remember you still have legs that are not designed to be folded up.

 

Meditation should be useful...the meditator should simply expose themselves to internal learning. There's more important things to learn about than how long one can endure self harm

[Rara]

Hm, not every teacher is a good person, right?

Hope you left that guy?

C'mon, so what is he supposed to say?

 

"If you get hit, cry and fall down like a sack of $*!t"??

[Yascra]

C'mon, so what is he supposed to say?

Something that improves awareness and body-consciousness, instead of helping people to get more body-dead than they might have been before?

But well, I might be influenced too much by internal instead of outer MA.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Yascra

[GrandmasterP]

Haha, same here!

But it's true. Conditioning. How many MMA fighters get blasted in the head yet keep focus on their opponent and their hands up?

Pain is fine if you're training to use the conditioning. I.e army etc.

Being sat in full lotus for hours inviting numbness and pain seems pointless to me. All it does is switch you off to the pain after a while, only to awaken and remember you still have legs that are not designed to be folded up.

Meditation should be useful...the meditator should simply expose themselves to internal learning. There's more important things to learn about than how long one can endure self harm

 

You do build up a tolerance to pain doing MA for sure and that's OK whilst one is young enough and fit enough to roll with it.

I got to a stage where I stopped bouncing though and bruises don't heal so fast after 50 as they did before.

QiGong all the way nowadays and a bit of TaiChi if I'm feeling energetic.

We are lucky to have a super TaiChi class in the Village Hall once a week , it's only £3-00 a session and I can pop in whenever I like.

You get a cuppa tea too and they are super friendly folks with an excellent and patient teacher.

I spend time round zennists and have done a sesshin or two in the past.

Sitting as I do there's no problems at all and no one has ever bigged up a 'must do' way to sit so that's not been an issue.

Over on Brad Warner's Hardcore Zen forum whenever someone does big up full or half lotus then someone else generally pops in saying ' posing is for poseurs'.

I reckon any zen teacher who wants to attract and keep students has to be pragmatic about how to sit because if only those who can sit full or half lotus feel welcome then very few will stick with the programme.

The OBC at Throssel Hole Abbey are about the biggest Zen centre in England and there you can sit however it suits you for ease.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Personally I'm cautious about pushing through numbness too much as it can end up causing arthritis. If I want to do more sitting I'll do some walking meditation between sets.

 

The idea that chi will eliminate all pain may be true for some but not for all. It's the chi circulation that makes me wish I could sit longer, but I don't need to damage myself.