Intellectualism is for wimps

[soaring crane]

Does this thread actually have a topic?

[joeblast]

Does this thread actually have a topic?

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34235-intellectualism-is-for-wimps/page-2#entry534784

[soaring crane]

Ahhhhhhh.... I'm caught in a logic loop!

[Marblehead]

Ahhhhhhh.... I'm caught in a logic loop!

Been there, done that.

 

If X equals Y and X is not equal to Z then it is a given that Y is not equal to Z either.

 

Anyone who is posting on this forum is guilty of doing what I have been accused of. And this includes the accusor as well.

[soaring crane]

I was referring to the link that links to itself, MH :-)

[Marblehead]

I was referring to the link that links to itself, MH :-)

Hehehe. I noticed that too and didn't understand so just let it go.

[joeblast]

I was referring to the link that links to itself, MH :-)

ah, but like all puzzles, you have to look a little more closely...isnt that part of the essence of seeing through methods, understanding that intellectualism is a method, it has its uses, but also has its limitations. patience, and the window loads where it was linked to

 

[liminal_luke]

Does this thread actually have a topic?

 

Yes, actually two. Pointing towards the non-dual nature of reality as it exists beyond concepts, and bashing Marblehead.

 

Liminal

[soaring crane]

It seems to me that someone capable of the former wouldn't engage in the latter. But that could be my fault.

[Taomeow]

Edited March 26, 2014 by Taomeow

[Boy]

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Boy

[amoyaan]

I think the issue of anti-intellectualism in spirituality is actually quite an important one. The truth of what we are, pure nondual awareness, is beyond mind and intellect, yes...but the intellect is the vehicle that takes us to that realisation. Otherwise it's all just about getting high and trying to experience bliss states like energy junkies. I mean, we can travel all the way to India to see a shaktipat guru or get a hug from Amma and be high for a little while, but after it wears off we'll still be, in the words of my teacher, 'as dumb as a loaf of bread'

 

James Swartz, my aforementioned teacher, wrote the following. (it's vedanta specific because he's a teacher of traditional vedanta, but I think the logic of his argument is pretty clear )

 

"When we are confronted with existential problems, the tendency to become anti-intellectual and 'spiritual' often causes us to believe that we can just feel our way to reality. But this is like trying to see with our ears. If we have no means of knowledge to arrive at the already existing truth that sets us free, we live in a spiritual wilderness. In service of self ignorance, the intellect can never know the Self, but it becomes wise when it serves the teachings of a valid means of Self knowledge like Vedanta. A tool used for the wrong purpose is not a defective tool. It comes into its own when it is used as it was intended to be used. The intellect is designed for Self inquiry, not for making ignorance work.

 

The anti-intellectualism that sounds so loudly in the spiritual world is understandable because most spiritual teachers are self deluded and claim that the ignorance they speak is actually truth. This makes seekers turn to feelings or intuition or the belief in ego loss or fantasy that some kind of incredible experience will set them free. This anti-intellectual stance imprisons them within the confines of their senses, emotions and thoughts and makes them unavailable for the transforming action of a legitimate means of knowledge."

 

In other words, I guess, the intellect plays a vital role in Self-realisation because we use it to make sense of our experience and to come to the realisation..the knowledge...that we are pure awareness, the Self, or whatever you'd like to call it.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

Does this thread actually have a topic?

 

Yes, actually two. Pointing towards the non-dual nature of reality as it exists beyond concepts, and bashing Marblehead.

 

Liminal

 

Actually there is a third one introduced by me here:

 

There is a Western intellectual tradition that is both intellectually rigorous and deeply mystical and that is the Platonic tradition,especially as explicated by Plotinus and also Proclus. Others contributed, but these are the 'Three Ps' of Western Mystical Philosophy, and they are not wimps.

 

and the importance of this is that, just as Platonic intellectualism banished materialism from the Hellenistic period by rigorously asking questions that materialism was incapable of answering, it is also capable of asking questions about modern day materialism which it is cannot answer.

 

This may seem trivial to all the 'non-dualists' out there, but there are people who are quite ready to dismiss all your non-dualist experiences as the misfires of a a diseased nervous system and to create chemical and electrical means to save you from them. These people are the neurological establishment and if they have their way the 'disease' of mysticism will be stamped out in decades.

 

Religious fundamentalism is also very vulnerable to deep questioning and is also a danger to any form of mysticism and again if they could stamp it out, they would do so.

 

Learning to undermine both materialism and fundamentalism may be essential to the viability of real spirituality in world culture. Platonism has much to offer to help protect and further mysticism and spirituality in the modern world.

[Jetsun]

The truth of what we are, pure nondual awareness, is beyond mind and intellect, yes...but the intellect is the vehicle that takes us to that realisation.

 

In my experience it is the intuition which has led me the straightest way, for the most part the intellect has only puffed up my sense of separate self and brought about more suffering. I think you are more likely to be brought to non-dual awareness through the failure of the intellect to get you there than anything else.

 

In terms of spirituality some skilful masters can use the intellect in a way which they describe in some Indian traditions as using a "thorn to remove a thorn" or as they say in Zen to shoot an arrow out of the air with an arrow, which basically means you use a concept to expose the unreality of another concept which just leaves the empty ground remaining. But that is a process of using the intellect to reveal its own limitations and uselessness when it comes to trying to figure out the truth rather than using it to try to think your way to reality.

 

I'm not anti intellect though, i'm just of the opinion that it is impossible to think your way to truth/reality/enlightenment, by definition thoughts are representations of reality so you wont get to real reality searching through endless representations, it's impossible because you are searching in completely the wrong realm. But the intellect is a pretty useful tool if you want to program a computer or work or how many bombs you need to destroy a third world country.

[Marblehead]

It seems to me that someone capable of the former wouldn't engage in the latter. But that could be my fault.

You are right, of course. But then, in my signature block it states that I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Marblehead]

Where's the happy face? Happy Days are here again.

[Marblehead]

Swell. You just ruined the game.

I don't quit that easily. Remember, I'm the "No surrender" guy.

[Boy]

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Boy

[Marblehead]

In my experience it is the intuition which has led me the straightest way, for the most part the intellect has only puffed up my sense of separate self and brought about more suffering. I think you are more likely to be brought to non-dual awareness through the failure of the intellect to get you there than anything else.

Sad that life went that way for you. It doesn't have to be that way. But yes, I too rely on my intuition. I have learned to not even ask "Why?" when it speaks to me.

 

And I will suggest that it has been the intellect that has allow me to be less dualistic. But then there are aspects of my life where duality is important and reduces the amount of time I spend testing something.

[Trunk]

~~~ admin statement ~~~

 

I agree: Everyone should get raped at least once in their lifetime. Mindblowing, ego-crushing experience.

Icedude has been banned.

 

- Trunk

 

p.s.

Original post hidden.

 

~~~ /admin out ~~~

[Clarity]

Keep in mind, the OP made a statement about "intellectualism" which is not the same as the "intellect". Intellectualism implies clinging to the intellect. Clinging to the intellect as a defense against fear, as a limitation.

 

So if you look past the superficial, you see that the comment about it being for "wimps" simply means it's a defense against not facing fear (as a kind of challenge to those who cling to intellectualism).

 

Sure, the intellect has it's place in our daily life. But the intellect does not provide us with answers, only more questions. Direct perception of reality, realization, is where we find answers.

[Boy]

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Boy

[Marblehead]

Keep in mind, the OP made a statement about "intellectualism" which is not the same as the "intellect". Intellectualism implies clinging to the intellect. Clinging to the intellect as a defense against fear, as a limitation.

 

So if you look past the superficial, you see that the comment about it being for "wimps" simply means it's a defense against not facing fear (as a kind of challenge to those who cling to intellectualism).

 

Sure, the intellect has it's place in our daily life. But the intellect does not provide us with answers, only more questions. Direct perception of reality, realization, is where we find answers.

I disagree with almost everything you said here.

 

Intellectualism is the act of using intellect. No one said anything about clinging to it. Intellect is use to negate unknown fears, not as a support for fear. We fear what we do not understand. Intelligence offers us understanding and this removes fear.

 

So the truth is that the intellect is the opposite of the wimp who does nothing but pretend they are in never-never land. It are the intellects who are asking the questions about physical reality instead of questions about some imagined existence. It are the intellects who are finding the answers to there questions instead of finding more questions as do those who pretend that manifest reality does not exist.

 

I agree with the first and third sentence of your last paragraph but certainly not the second.

 

And then I wonder why those who are speaking against intellectualism are so striving to show their intellectuality (I just made up that word) by making all these wonderful posts in this thread.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Marblehead

[GrandmasterP]

Intellectualityisation maybe?

 

:-)

Edited March 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Intellectualityisation maybe?

 

:-)

Hehehe. That's worse than what I did.