Most Advanced Qigong/Neikung System Available?

[coyote]

Hi Matt, I am interested in the system you recommend. I am new here but not new to qigong and taoism. Thanks.

Coyote

[林愛偉]

Secrecy is not wrong. In general it`s good not to talk much about your practice.

 

 

In secrecy , I mean telling people ones practice is secret, and teaching things that one labels as secret techniques of some immortal or what not. THat's what I meant.

Holding back information is basically a secret. What you don't know is a secret to someone else. BUT that is fine. Publicly stating it is a secret is just a marketing scam, and an ego builder. Nothing more.

Even if it is a legitamit technique or teaching, it will steer the cultivator in the very wrong directions.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[林愛偉]

 

 

Aiwei, I'm treasuring the wisdom of your posts.

 

 

 

It is only because that wisdom you say you treasure is within you as well.

 

One cannot recognize something, or be moved by something, or even believe in something unless they have that already within them as a reference. There must be a seed of the thing recognized, planted in the mind, or there cannot be a treasuring.

 

The wisdom you see is only your own.

 

AMITUOFO

 

 

Lin Ai Wei

[Pero]

In secrecy , I mean telling people ones practice is secret, and teaching things that one labels as secret techniques of some immortal or what not. THat's what I meant.

Holding back information is basically a secret. What you don't know is a secret to someone else. BUT that is fine. Publicly stating it is a secret is just a marketing scam, and an ego builder. Nothing more.

Even if it is a legitamit technique or teaching, it will steer the cultivator in the very wrong directions.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

 

Ah, I think I get you now.

[三江源]

I think it natural to keep the container sealed. A leaky vessel doesnt hold anything.

[mwight]

I say if your drawn to it check it out and report back. I may check out Master Tseng's Alchemy training at some point. Though I would need to get a good explanation of what exactly it entails. Which probably wouldn't be possible until after doing the "foundation" stuff..whatever that is

 

As far as the enlightenment question...it seems different traditions have different explanations of what enlightenment means.

 

The thing I personally question about some of these paths that make a big, big deal about the process,the training..and how it is so very hard to "achieve" enlightenment is from my experience with people I would call "awake"(not neccissarilly "fully" enlightened as I haven't gotten a clear enough view of these things yet) is it is pretty much about waking up to your true self which is WHAT IS ALREADY...rather than something added to.

 

It's interesting to see what people want or expect enlightnment to be. For example, Adyashanti, who I would say at very least is "awake" would probably say the imagined mountain top of enlightenment is just that..imagined. That the real thing is WHAT DOES NOT COME AND GO.

 

By the same token people who want to "get out of the matrix". What exactly do you mean by that? I don't have any problem with whatever peoples goals are just interesting to understand what people are talking about when they say that sort of thing.

 

Best.

 

 

If you read my theory of a 6 dimensional reality, you would understand what I mean by the matrix. I mean that this world/universe and all it's inhabitants are illusory and we are trapped here believing it is real. I want out to find something which is real ( I guess what most people call God) I want to understand the ultimate nature of reality, to wake up, to leave.

 

I see enlightenment as complete and total comprehension of the ultimate nature of reality, and liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth.

 

I personally think only schools which can develop these powers like the lei shan dao, are valid. The reason being they are displaying higher knowledge of reality.

 

I see these powers not as the end goal themselves but as direct and pertinent feedback about your progression along the path.

[freeform]

If you read my theory of a 6 dimensional reality, you would understand what I mean by the matrix. I mean that this world/universe and all it's inhabitants are illusory and we are trapped here believing it is real. I want out to find something which is real ( I guess what most people call God) I want to understand the ultimate nature of reality, to wake up, to leave.

 

I see enlightenment as complete and total comprehension of the ultimate nature of reality, and liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth.

 

I personally think only schools which can develop these powers like the lei shan dao, are valid. The reason being they are displaying higher knowledge of reality.

 

I see these powers not as the end goal themselves but as direct and pertinent feedback about your progression along the path.

 

'Reality' is far, far simpler than you seem to think. There's nothing much to it - reality is feeling your hands get wet when you wash them in water. I hear that enlightenment allows you to know everything all at once, so you tend to choose to know nothing. The only thing you would be escaping from is 'you' not the world - in fact you would be much more in the world... Enlightenment is not easy, they say - try watching the news when you feel the pain and sorrow of every single event. Enlightenment is not escape from pain and difficulty - it's diving into these and being still and very present even though it hurts so much.

[Oolong Rabbit]

 

I personally think only schools which can develop these powers like the lei shan dao, are valid. The reason being they are displaying higher knowledge of reality.

 

I see these powers not as the end goal themselves but as direct and pertinent feedback about your progression along the path.

 

I am not sure I agree with your statement that only schools which can produce these effects are valid. The fact is that there are many schools which are rumored to produce all kinds of "spernatural" effects, but they either consider them irrelevant, or do not feel the need to display them publicly. If you are truly looking for enlightenment or transcendance, many of the buddhist schools have very well defined systems.

 

In addition, there are also a couple of points about Lei Shan Dao you might want to consider:

 

1. If memory serves me, John Chang himself said (according to Kosta) that there is only ever 2 people alive at any given time that reach level 4 and higher in his art. The master and 1 disciple.

 

2. John Chang's master seems to harbor some prejudices againt western students.

 

I am not trying to give you a hard time but I urge you honestly examine your motivations.

[Cameron]

If you read my theory of a 6 dimensional reality, you would understand what I mean by the matrix. I mean that this world/universe and all it's inhabitants are illusory and we are trapped here believing it is real. I want out to find something which is real ( I guess what most people call God) I want to understand the ultimate nature of reality, to wake up, to leave.

 

I see enlightenment as complete and total comprehension of the ultimate nature of reality, and liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth.

 

I personally think only schools which can develop these powers like the lei shan dao, are valid. The reason being they are displaying higher knowledge of reality.

 

I see these powers not as the end goal themselves but as direct and pertinent feedback about your progression along the path.

 

 

Cool. It sounds like you have a strong inner calling to check out Lei Shan Dao. Check it out!!!

[hagar]

'Reality' is far, far simpler than you seem to think. There's nothing much to it - reality is feeling your hands get wet when you wash them in water. I hear that enlightenment allows you to know everything all at once, so you tend to choose to know nothing. The only thing you would be escaping from is 'you' not the world - in fact you would be much more in the world... Enlightenment is not easy, they say - try watching the news when you feel the pain and sorrow of every single event. Enlightenment is not escape from pain and difficulty - it's diving into these and being still and very present even though it hurts so much.

 

Freeform. I feel abit silly to say that I "agree" with you, but this truly resonates with my own felt experience.

 

It is truly a tricky place to be in a position where you realize that what you thougth was real is not. A stage in practice is always like that. Even more it is almost like an ebb and flow of emotions and thoughts that stick to you at certain phases of cultivation, generating all these added layers of "truth", "reality", "enlightenment" which only clouds our original perfect nature. It basically goes like this:

 

0: The universe is originally in charge

 

1. Beginning Expert: Naive fascination or lingering and apparent pain

Motivation: The good stuff is somewhere else...

Object of desire: Happiness, absence of pain, Enlightenment, specialness, truth etc.

 

2. Primadonna: Dissappointment, boredom, unease, feeling overwhelmed.

What you thought was easy is hard, what you think should be hard should be easy.

Motivation: getting rid of the "bad stuff"

Object of desire: New techniques, approaches, lineages etc

 

3. Block head: Resignation, failure, self doubt, doubt about teachers, lineages schools.

Motivation: Lack there of, spiritual crisis, falling back to old ways, feeling lost.

Object of desire: Certainty

 

4. The ascetic: self denial, letting go of the world, pride.

Motivation: Back to basics, retracing steps, starting over, "self-empowerment", pain as sign of transformation.

Object of desire: attainment through ardous labor. (if it is difficult, its worth it)

 

X-phase: Undetermined amount of time where the universe finally is allowed to take over. Surrender

 

5. Pooh the bear: Opening, space, joy.

Motivation: Life is good, better enjoy it while it lasts

Object of desire: Blueberries, Mountains, napping...

 

Personally, I think I'm fluctuating btw 2 and 4.

 

h

[Pero]

In addition, there are also a couple of points about Lei Shan Dao you might want to consider:

 

 

If I`m not mistaken, John Chang isn`t Lei Shan Dao...

 

 

1. If memory serves me, John Chang himself said (according to Kosta) that there is only ever 2 people alive at any given time that reach level 4 and higher in his art. The master and 1 disciple.

 

"There`s no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith."

"Hmm, always two there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice."

 

Edited July 13, 2007 by Pero

[宁]

Great post Hagar!

[gendao]

2. John Chang's master seems to harbor some prejudices againt western students.

I think imperialistic Whites earned a bad rep and enmity for themselves during their "Manifest Destiny" era of eminent domain.

 

In the 1800s, the Sassoon family and the British dumped opium into the country and started the Opium Wars. And then took over Hong Kong. Then the native Ming Dynasty was replaced by the "foreign" Manchu Qing Dynasty...which weakened China enough to allow increasing encroachment by Whites and Japanese. Everybody wanted to take over China at the time! Hence the grassroots Boxer Rebellion...which proved pretty useless without firearms. And all the while, Christian missionaries were trying to indoctrinate and convert the masses. Of course, this was then followed by the Japanese invasion.

 

Point being, the native Chinese have been put on the defensive against aggressive foreign invaders for the last 2 centuries or more. And they don't want to end up oppressed minorities in their own land like the Native Americans or Australian aborigines. So Chinese elders from the older generations are naturally going to have a higher level of suspicion and distrust for Whites (and even moreso - Japanese).

 

I think John Chang had been extremely open to ALL students, though. Not to mention, he didn't charge a red cent for any of his generous teachings.

Edited July 13, 2007 by vortex

[freeform]

Yes, great post, Hagar.

 

I also find myself occilating between 2 and 4.

 

the X-phase, where the universe is allowed to take over can happen anywhere on the list. I just find that when you do let the universe take over the little 'me' becomes very uncomfortable - If I follow my intuition (with no interference from the ego/little me/mind) I'm placed in curcumstances that allways challenge me in an uncomfortable way. Just as I'm certain about something, I let my intuition take over and there is no certainty at all, it's all confusion.

 

I have this problem with anger - I find it almost impossible to express it, yet I have tons of it inside. If I do express it, it feels like 'acting' - fake anger. Anger and its suppression is what I need to work on - so I work on it with techniques and methods and so on, basically 'comfortable', 'controlled' ways of dealing with it. But in terms of anger there is hardly any progress - so I move down the list, get disheartened, uncertain what to do, and at some point let go of needing to do anything, and that's where the universe takes over and all these things in my life start happening that cause me to get angry - so I either go into it and observe myself being angry and maybe suppressing the anger or I fall back into my old patterns and little me takes over and I'm certain again...

 

I'm just saying that when you let your deepest parts free, we should expect to be uncomfortable - dealing with the discomfort is hard, because we all have deeply ingrained patterns of dealing with pain and discomfort.

 

Enlightenment is light - when you first get even a tiny ray of light, it illuminates all the the dirt you've been ignoring.

 

Also, Hagar, I would suggest that the x-phase is happening all the time (in the background) - whether you're aware of it or not - losing confidence in your practice, the self doubt, even the self denial and the need for hard labour are all specs of dust illuminated by the light of enlightenment. No matter what, you're always on the right track.

 

[Ian]

 

I'm just saying that when you let your deepest parts free, we should expect to be uncomfortable - dealing with the discomfort is hard, because we all have deeply ingrained patterns of dealing with pain and discomfort.

 

 

ESPECIALLY when you go and get some help from a master and you spend a week opening up and effectively telling life, "yeah, come on, I can handle this, show me the filth within." Then you get home and life says, "You don't say! Try this..." and then your world goes mentaltastic.

[Pero]

And they don't want to end up oppressed minorities in their own land like the Native Americans or Australian aborigines. So Chinese elders from the older generations are naturally going to have a higher level of suspicion and distrust for Whites (and even moreso - Japanese).

 

That`d be kind of hard, considering there`s over a billion of them, don`t you think?

[gendao]

That`d be kind of hard, considering there`s over a billion of them, don`t you think?

Well there were tens of millions of Native Americans...that eventually got dominated by far fewer colonists.

 

South Africa had a huge Black majority...ruled by a tiny White minority.

 

So no, you don't necessarily need high numbers to become a powerful minority. It's more about how much socioeconomic and military power you have. And Machiavellian ethics and double-crossing don't hurt, either.

[Pero]

Good point.

[gendao]

Ching Fung Dao Shr/Lama Nakpha Dorje (Max Christensen) sounds intriguing...

Lama Dorje told him about a class he was teaching at the local park where his students learned different martial arts styles and that they also did a secret monastery practice called, the spontaneous Kunlun. Having never heard of such a practice, the student asked to know more about the spontaneous Kunlun. Lama Dorje described a practice that raised the bliss energy and the magnetic potential of the practitioner such that he might shake as if in a seizure, laugh hysterically, cry, speak in tongues and could be drawn and stuck magnetically to a fence, tree or a post and not be able to get away. He said that this simple practice was all one needed to completely open one's energy centers and reach enlightenment (or re-enlightenment, as he likes to put it).

 

Obviously my curiosity was piqued, but when he told us that one-hour of this practice was equivalent to one hundred years of another practice, I decided that I would definitely be attending his next class.

 

An air of mystery consumed the park as the students took the starting posture. Almost immediately torsos began spiraling and people started smiling. Within about a minute or so, some students started shaking. With this shaking came laughter and in some cases a kind of insane mumbling and I realized that I was witnessing "speaking in tongues."

 

After a few minutes of this, the students were overcome by this shaking energy that seemed to have a will and direction of its own. The starting form had completely disappeared and everyone went off into their own thing. Some students began moving about, running, spinning in circles and many were hopping up and down as if being controlled by some unseen puppeteer.

 

I watched in amazement as Lama Dorje stood with his hands raised and vibrating, directing the "blissed-out" students around like some magnetic orchestral conductor. Wherever his hands moved, the chosen student would inexplicably follow. Even those with closed eyes and the ones he stood twenty feet behind (obviously unaware of his focus), would find themselves moving forward, backward or sideways as the movement and direction of his hands dictated.

 

He started me out standing with my knees bent (such that I couldn't see my toes), tailbone and chin both tucked slightly to straighten the spine, shoulders relaxed and chest soft. My hands were positioned in the proper posture and I was told to stand and wait for the bliss feeling to activate.

Has anyone ever met this guy?

 

Or tried his methods? His spontaneous Kunlun standing sounds an awful lot like basic wuji posture or zhan zhuang? However, those postures don't quickly lead to prancing around in a bliss state and enlightenment (at least not in any such short order)...

[sunshine]

>>>I am not sure I agree with your statement that only schools which can produce these effects are valid. The fact is that there are many schools which are rumored to produce all kinds of "spernatural" effects, but they either consider them irrelevant, or do not feel the need to display them publicly. If you are truly looking for enlightenment or transcendance, many of the buddhist schools have very well defined systems.<<<

 

In my humble opinion many things got stated but a lot came across false. Actually it is not about powers per se. The idea is to say that there are "certain" powers one develops with specific training. If these powers appear at certain stages that are equal to all doing the same practices, then they can be more or less considered objective signs of some kind of progress... and "maybe even" signs of certain levels. It is not about aquiring powers!

 

What is the value of those signs and for example the ability to move something by intent (just chose any kind of example):

well. It shows that one has achieved something at least, hasn't it? Some kind of ability to have power over what we call "matter".

 

These signs are valuable signs for helping one believe in what one does. At least to me it is.

 

Sure. If one achieves a kind of bliss state after so and so many years of practice, then this is fine. But this is nothing that can be in any way proven by anybody outside of yourself, right?

 

It requires a lot of belief to pick up a training that maybe after 10 years leads one to a state of bliss... which could not be shown to me upfront!

 

I was told that if I have true belief in God I do not need all this kind of training. As it is: I do not have that much belief!

 

It is like with those seemingly lucky people saying: "you do not need to do anything towards enlightenment. you are already enlightened..."

 

How beautiful if they really realize that. BUT: FIRST one has GOT to REALIZE it... otherwise what they say is nothing more than a mind-game to the one not having realized it. Similar with "stillness": "stillness if always there" How beautiful. But first one needs to get to the point were one is able to perceive it... otherwise it makes no sense to "just believe" it.

 

So. The value in a path that produces certain abilities is to prove oneself ones progress. At least to me it is!

 

Regarding the following:

 

>>In addition, there are also a couple of points about Lei Shan Dao you might want to consider:

1. If memory serves me, John Chang himself said (according to Kosta) that there is only ever 2 people alive at any given time that reach level 4 and higher in his art. The master and 1 disciple.

2. John Chang's master seems to harbor some prejudices againt western students.

I am not trying to give you a hard time but I urge you honestly examine your motivations.<<

 

According to David in the Lei Shan Dao the way his master presents it already quite a few masters have developed.... there is no restriction down to 1 or 2 or 3 or... who can achieve... and it is not John Chang's Mo Pei... the question about lineage holders might be a different one though.

 

By the way. Just in case anybody ever understood that Lei Shan Dao is claimed to be the only valid path... that would sure be a misconception. It was only stated by David himself that the Lei Shan Dao is at least one that can be followed in a day to day urban life... something that seems not to be true for many other pathes.

 

 

Harry

[gendao]

objective signs of some kind of progress... and "maybe even" signs of certain levels.

 

I was told that if I have true belief in God I do not need all this kind of training. As it is: I do not have that much belief!

Agreed - hence my post on rooting. Without objective tests like that...how do you KNOW FOR SURE that you are actually accomplishing anything in the real world? The proof is in the pudding!

 

So, who says that a true belief in God makes the training unnecessary? David? LSD? And what IS their view on "God" and are they saying that all the same powers and goals could be obtained simply with a true belief in God?

[sunshine]

So, who says that a true belief in God makes the training unnecessary? David? LSD? And what IS their view on "God" and are they saying that all the same powers and goals could be obtained simply with a true belief in God?

 

I am not sure what "their" view is on "God"... but we were told to pray as well, pray from the heart. One of my teachers mentioned the story of a girl that asked what we are doing all these practices for, as she herself believes that God saved her already. His answer was that if she truely has that strong and unshakable kind of a faith there is sure no need for all these practices as she is truly saved already!

 

This is what he said... or at least what I understood

 

 

Harry

[gendao]

His answer was that if she truely has that strong and unshakable kind of a faith there is sure no need for all these practices as she is truly saved already!

Hmm, interesting.

 

But, saved...from what?

 

And what is the ultimate goal of LSD anyways, then? To return to the wuwei source? To be "saved" by "God?" Or are these the same things?

[sunshine]

Hmm, interesting.

 

But, saved...from what?

 

And what is the ultimate goal of LSD anyways, then? To return to the wuwei source? To be "saved" by "God?" Or are these the same things?

 

These are all good questions... and I am not able to give any satisfying answers... what is the aim of cultivation? I assume it is liberation... but what is liberation? I assume it is saving the spirit, but saving it what from? There are many ideas and many explanations given. As long as I haven't grasped them properly I would want to refrain from talking about them much as I could only cloud them more by my poor understanding of things. David has written some essays and there you might find some hints...

 

IF I understand right though one of the major ideas is to awaken from a state of sleep. If we don't awaken, we die and there is no way to tell if we come back to have the chance to awaken again in the way we are now. Our spirits tend to be scattered... lost in worldly affairs... one of the steps is to reclaim them back. Become a master of the mind again and not just stay a servant of it...

 

These are some of the first steps to work on. If we master this we might have a chance to get more to know about the questions you ask and their answers. I have these questions myself, but realize that even if I were given an answer I would fail to understand it, as it is too high or too far for me to comprehend from the state of being I am now at.

 

 

Harry

[Trunk]

Does anyone know of any other teachers or sources of this information that don't charge so much for the teachings....

 

Does anyone know of any other more advanced teachings available online, or for self study?

 

Does anyone know of any other advanced teachers?

Mark Griffin at HardLight.org. Whether "the right long term thing for you now", or not, at least a visit-sit with Mark would be worthwhile, to anyone into this stuff, imo. His ability to "cook the room" is at a very, very high level. And a total open-door policy, no hoops to jump through. It's an unusual situation.