What does standing meditation do to/for you?

[寒月 Hanyue]

On a downside, with time it starts to pull all of your energy up to the head, could cause slightly high bloodpressure.

Overdone it can become unballancing, you need practices that work the energy different ways, in order to complement the upward pull.

 

Zhan Zhuang shouldn't be pulling your qi up to your head ???

 

I'm not sure which type you are practicing, but your qi will only be going up if you are leading it up through subtle alignment and the way you hold the body.

 

A core and foundational energetic aspect of standing is that you want to maintain a central focus on dantian, with a light peripheral focus on baihui, and a stronger peripheral focus on yongquan. This sounds more complicated than it is

 

If you want to sink your qi, you want an awareness of yongquan, but if you lose awareness of the other end it doesn't sink so well. A focus on dantian is neutral, and allows storage.

 

Give it a go if you want to,

 

Best,

[Celestial]

Where is the ache? is it muscular? or does it feel more in the joint? Is it front of the knee, side, back?

 

You need to learn to open the knees and allow the weight to transfer through them. Your weight getting stuck there may lead to injury, and simply standing more doesn't always lead to the knees opening.

 

Best,

 

It's joint related located in the front (kneecaps). But the pain goes away about a minute or two after I am done standing. According to 'The Way of Energy', knee pain is felt for the first couple of weeks of doing Zhan Zhuang; apparently this is normal.

 

And when you say open up the knees more, what do you mean by that? According to the book, you're just supposed to stand roughly shoulder width apart and bend your knees slightly. Never bend past the toes.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Celestial

[寒月 Hanyue]

There are many forms of standing, and many things physically and or energetically that you can be doing within it.

 

Martial arts have more reasons for doing things a certain way than say simply for 'health'. Daoist neigong has a different focus again. Some layer and blend across all these things.

 

It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you know why and what it is for and that it meets you reasons for practicing.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

It's joint related located in the front (kneecaps). But the pain goes away about a minute or two after I am done standing. According to the book, knee pain is felt for the first couple of weeks of doing Zhan Zhuang; apparently this is normal.

 

And when you say open up the knees more, what do you mean by that?

 

Okay, i'll be blunt. Standing won't help you with this it will only make it worse I don't care what the book says. Please do not just stand and wait for it to go away I have the book, I know the teacher, I know teachers under him.

 

The knee pain is occuring because of the alignment of your soft tissues and bones. The force that should be passing straight through the knee joint is instead redirected forwards and you end up with pain behind the kneecap, or just below it.

 

First thing, you probably have the knees too bent, stand up higher and wait for the kua and ankles to open more before bending them a lot. As long as they are unlocked it is fine. Many try to do zhan zhuang with really bent knees and it is pointless. Especially if it is causing pain in the joints.

 

Muscle pain is okay, joint pain NEVER is.

 

Opening the knee joint is quite easy, and certainly easily shown, but is quite hard to describe in 'e-mail' format So please bear with me. First I want you to play with your hand, wrist and forearm and get a feeling for something. It will be much easier to get this with the upper limb first .

 

Simply hold the forearm up vertically, slowly and gently move the wrist back and forth and find a good neutral balance point to balance your hand on top of the forearm. Once you've done that, slowly extend the fingers up towards the ceiling. Don't stretch them, extend them from the palm. Then I want you to feel your fingertips and feel the inside of each finger sinking and draining downwards. Feel this drain into the hand, don't worry if certain parts don't want to get involved. Continue this sinking feeling all the way down to your elbow. The arm should not have moved. This is feeling an internal shift inside.

 

Once you can drain down to the elbow, move your awareness back from the elbow upwards allowing the outside of the arm to open and extend slightly more, keep this opening feeling going until you reach the fingertips, see how much easier your arm, hand, and fingers extended. Play back and forth. Each benefits and aids in the other.

 

Sit in a chair, put your feet as you would if you were standing. Do the same thing but from your knees down to yongquan and your toes. Sink the weight downwards, inside, feel it, don't visualise it or imagine it, feel it in your body. Once drained down, press into the floor slightly, and allow an extension like you felt in the arm move up through the foot, ankle, shin and calf into and ideally through the knee. Then drain back down again. Play back and forth.

 

If you do this correctly you will begin to engage the natural 'lengthening' of the soft tissues of the body (eventually going into yin/yang tissues etc), and you will begin to release open the joints properly. There is much more to it, but this is stage 101.

 

Did you find your feet opened more? your ankles? It is easier to do this without the whole body weight on them.

 

Now stand up. Same thing, from the knees drain down into and through the ankles and feet. Allow the back of the heel to press slightly into the floor. Feel how this sets up a reciprocal feeling in the back of the knee. You should feel an 'opening' or light 'stretch' in the back of the knee. Now gently circle the ankle joint, search for the centre, where your body weight falls cleanly through, then do the same for the knee. Repeat the back and forth extending with a slight press, draining/sinking down.

 

This is eventually done whole bodily and will lead to some interesting things.

 

Best,

[ChiDragon]

It's joint related located in the front (kneecaps). But the pain goes away about a minute or two after I am done standing. According to 'The Way of Energy', knee pain is felt for the first couple of weeks of doing Zhan Zhuang; apparently this is normal.

 

And when you say open up the knees more, what do you mean by that? According to the book, you're just supposed to stand roughly shoulder width apart and bend your knees slightly. Never bend past the toes.

 

Yes, for a novice, there are pains on the knee caps due to the initial stress for the cold joints. After a long time practice, your knee caps will be able to withstand the stress and no more pain, even though you have the knee caps passed the toes.

 

If you exert a little force in the legs or Fa Jin, you will feel that your muscles are hard as a rock and be careful who you kick....!!!

[Celestial]

snip

 

Thank you. I'll keep trying this until I feel it a little more. Probably easier shown than written, like you mentioned. In the Book of Neikung, the author says something about placing the knees 'outward' as if you were holding a big ballon between your legs.

 

Any validity to this?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you. I'll keep trying this until I feel it a little more. Probably easier shown than written, like you mentioned. In the Book of Neikung, the author says something about placing the knees 'outward' as if you were holding a big ballon between your legs.

 

Any validity to this?

 

I double checked Master Lam's book for you. He does say to only slightly bend the knee in the first position. He also says knee ACHE is to be expected, as is ACHING in various body parts. This is NOT PAIN. Please note the difference.

 

I help teach qigong to chronic pain patients. I also coach martial artists with standing practice. Joint pain is NEVER acceptable, it means you are doing something wrong. And it embeds trauma into the nervous system. Learning to wait out and work through muscular tension is different, and even then there are arguments for and against it.

 

I have never been taught pain is okay, by ANY of my teachers, regardless of the type of zhan zhuang they were passing on.

 

The type of standing you appear to want to be doing, ala Master Kam, is like allowing the rice to settle to the bottom of a sack. If you are doing this, that is why you lift, extend, or 'pull up' the sack, while allowing the rice inside to sink and settle, make sense.

 

This is ONLY possible if you treat your skeleton properly, and allow the weight to pass through the joints. If you have pain in a joint, the body organises itself to deal with that pain, that re-organisation of your nervous system is completely counter to what you are trying to do. So why fight yourself?? Trust me, your body will win Maybe not straight away, you may even think you've won. But it'll come back haha, Besides, that kind of pain usually makes your energy-body shrink and contract, which is also the opposite of what you want.

 

Do you mean C. K. Chu's book?

 

I have it but haven't read it for years.

 

Look, the knee thing you are referring to is more complex than that. I don't know what you are doing, so if I say yes, you may over do it. Then you may strain the ligaments on either the inside or outside of your knee. Do the partial practices to really get a feel for the extending and sinking that should be going on. Then when standing establish that as best you can. Simply circle the ankle slowly and gently in small circles and try to find the best alignment for today, then the knees, the the hip, allowing the pelvis and tailbone to sink more lower back to open more etc. Do one leg then the other if its easier than both. Do this to 'settle' in. Then stand as though under water and let go and allow the body to find its own way to settle more.

 

What is going on in the legs in martial zhan zhuang is THREE-DIMENSIONAL and each part directly relates to the rest. There is opening, lengthening, wrapping, hollowing, lifting and all sorts. It really becomes a study of task saturation. And is not something you are meant to hold for extended periods of time. The mental effort let alone the physical is too much.

 

For 'qi' practice, just learn to feel the bones, the joints, align them and allow the soft tissue to expand soften and sink. No pain You'll know when you get it because the body will let go and it's like a big sigh of relief and goes 'aaahhhhhh....' Hit that and over time extend that space for longer, and longer.

 

Best,

Edited November 19, 2012 by snowmonki

[宁]

Zhan Zhuang shouldn't be pulling your qi up to your head ???

 

I'm not sure which type you are practicing, but your qi will only be going up if you are leading it up through subtle alignment and the way you hold the body.

 

A core and foundational energetic aspect of standing is that you want to maintain a central focus on dantian, with a light peripheral focus on baihui, and a stronger peripheral focus on yongquan. This sounds more complicated than it is

 

If you want to sink your qi, you want an awareness of yongquan, but if you lose awareness of the other end it doesn't sink so well. A focus on dantian is neutral, and allows storage.

 

Give it a go if you want to,

Best,

 

Hey thanks for the input,

 

however what I experimented is also double checked with the traditional approach, ZZ's effect is Supposed to raise your Qi, I didn't invent that, that's how it's done and one of the reasons why. Of course they do complement it with other routines for sinking Qi, but I don't have access to them...

 

You can focus on whatever you want during ZZ, the Qi will still rise, it will follow the circulation between heaven and earth, that's how plants and trees break the gravity pull and grow.

 

At least that's my experience and research, maybe there are different ways to do the same thing, I dunno.

 

@steve,

 

no I don't have any sinking Qi practices, I feel my energy makeup favours the rising Qi, I'm also a brainy type and have occasional anger issues, that would sum it up, I have no idea which is because of what.

 

 

On a general note, I see people insisting not to go over the 20 min timeframe, would you guys think that's reasonable? Is it possible I've overdone it?

'Cuz from what traditional schools seem to say, one 40 - 60 min is the least you can do if you are serious about it.

Edited November 19, 2012 by 宁

[Aetherous]

Building qi in the lower dantien (what standing does) will definitely raise qi to the head.

 

Typically, when a person's channels are open (such as governor and central), when their dantien is full...this is very noticeable. It's the first stage of alchemy, three flowers meeting at the top. No matter what you do at this point, your qi rises. Connecting with the earth, sinking, attention on lower dan, focusing on lower points of the body or really any point...paradoxically, these are actually some of the methods which cause qi to rise more strongly.

 

Just adding my personal experience. Not trying to start a debate...

[Celestial]

Look, the knee thing you are referring to is more complex than that. I don't know what you are doing, so if I say yes, you may over do it.

 

I'm doing Position One from the book by Sifu Lam. The Neikung book was just something to cross reference the standing pole position. One book says one thing, the other says something else. I'm trying to figure out which is correct.

 

Anyways, perhaps I'm not feeling any pain at all in my kneecaps but rather a dull aching sensation. Which like I mentioned before goes away after the first few minutes of practice. No offense, but I used to be an athlete (who still to this day trains 5 days a week), so I am pretty sure I understand the concept of bending a little bit at the knees -- as instructed and illustrated in the book. It's just that when I feel something that hurts I immediately associate it with pain. Which can be sharp or dull depending.

 

I see your point about aches though, but at my age the likely hood of anything in my body aching is rare; other than the occasional headache. In other words, I believe the aching could just be a result of not being used to this kind of training (Zhan Zhuang) and holding a single posture for a set amount of time.

 

Thanks for clearing some stuff up for me though. Appreciate it.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Celestial

[Celestial]

Building qi in the lower dantien (what standing does) will definitely raise qi to the head.

 

Typically, when a person's channels are open (such as governor and central), when their dantien is full...this is very noticeable. It's the first stage of alchemy, three flowers meeting at the top. No matter what you do at this point, your qi rises. Connecting with the earth, sinking, attention on lower dan, focusing on lower points of the body or really any point...paradoxically, these are actually some of the methods which cause qi to rise more strongly.

 

Just adding my personal experience. Not trying to start a debate...

 

How do you know when your LDT is filled?

 

And is Qi rising into your head a bad thing?

Edited November 19, 2012 by Celestial

[GreytoWhite]

Excess qi in the head can lead to various illnesses and psychosis. It is a good idea to develop the downward flow of energy into the lower dantian to alleviate the excess.

[Celestial]

I wonder if he's using the upper magpie bridge technique though... that could be part of the problem:

 

"The tongue is placed into the roof of the mouth known as the 'Magpie Bridge', which acts as a kind of switch which completes the energy circuit so that too much energy cannot build up in the head which can lead to headaches or even hallucinations." [http://en.wikipedia....rocosmic_orbit]

Edited November 19, 2012 by Celestial

[宁]

Excess qi in the head can lead to various illnesses and psychosis. It is a good idea to develop the downward flow of energy into the lower dantian to alleviate the excess.

 

Don't worry, it's not like I have a problem with it, just posted about some SUBTLE changes I found occuring every now and then.

Edited November 19, 2012 by 宁

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hey guys

 

with time it starts to pull all of your energy up to the head, could cause slightly high bloodpressure.

 

Well the above doesn't sound like the same description as the below....

 

Don't worry, it's not like I have a problem with it, just posted about some SUBTLE changes I found occuring every now and then.

 

Subtle changes in qi is one thing and fair enough. You however posted that the qi is PULLED up to your head and could cause highblood pressure. This is NOT in my view a subtle shift or change in qi or anything And IS something that should not be happening in ZZ despite anyone's personal opinions.

 

Qi rising in ZZ is NOT the same as PULLING QI to the head.

 

If you'd said , 'I experience a SUBTLE RISING of qi when I stand', I wouldn't have said a thing. So my apologies, if this is the case. My post was aimed at helping prevent excess qi in the head and potential blood pressure problems.

 

however what I experimented is also double checked with the traditional approach, ZZ's effect is Supposed to raise your Qi, I didn't invent that, that's how it's done and one of the reasons why.

 

Raising qi is not the same as 'pulling qi' to or into the head. I never said you invented anything, you don't need to defend yourself

 

You posted about a common problem that occurs in ZZ, and as I said the qi is only going up in that way if you are leading it up. I gave one way of learning to counter it, in case you wanted to play with it. If you don't it's up to you. I don't know what you are trying to do by even practicing ZZ.

 

Of course they do complement it with other routines for sinking Qi, but I don't have access to them...

 

Actually, sinking is the way you get the qi to rise. Safely, most smoothly, and is the easiest.

 

You can focus on whatever you want during ZZ, the Qi will still rise, it will follow the circulation between heaven and earth, that's how plants and trees break the gravity pull and grow.

 

At least that's my experience and research, maybe there are different ways to do the same thing, I dunno.

 

Of course there are different ways. As I posted before, standing is simply that, standing. What you are doing inside your standing changes the nature of the practice dramatically.

 

So depending on WHY you are practicing standing in the first place should determine WHAT you are doing within it.

 

I have met lots of people that simply practice whatever standing, thinking it is all the same, then get surprised that it doesn't take them where they wanted to go. If your standing is taking you where you want to go, then that is great and i'll shut up

 

 

note, I see people insisting not to go over the 20 min timeframe, would you guys think that's reasonable? Is it possible I've overdone it?

'Cuz from what traditional schools seem to say, one 40 - 60 min is the least you can do if you are serious about it.

 

Depends on why you are standing and the type of standing you are doing. People argue about time duration because they don't realise they are doing standing for different things.

 

Some standing if you do it for more than 10 minutes you are most definitely doing it wrong!

 

Oh, and you should never force yourself to stand for an hour or more. The length of time is built by the capacity of your "qi".

 

Building qi in the lower dantien (what standing does) will definitely raise qi to the head.

 

Typically, when a person's channels are open (such as governor and central), when their dantien is full...this is very noticeable. It's the first stage of alchemy, three flowers meeting at the top. No matter what you do at this point, your qi rises. Connecting with the earth, sinking, attention on lower dan, focusing on lower points of the body or really any point...paradoxically, these are actually some of the methods which cause qi to rise more strongly.

 

Just adding my personal experience. Not trying to start a debate...

 

Quite, and you aren't wrong. From my perspective what you say above, and what I posted are two different aspects of a greater whole. It's something different, related but different. So don't take this as an attempt at debate so much as clarification of what I meant previously. Maybe you feel it is the same, fair enough. It's just not the way I've been taught.

 

It doesn't matter whether you are standing or sitting or whatever shape you take. Your energy-body should FILL the space between heaven and earth. That means rising and sinking, and or expanding, however you want to see it.

 

However no practice aims to PULL qi to the head causing highblood pressure. None.

 

Dantian is a central focus point that does not cause qi to rise. However this is NOT in contradiction to what you said above. It does however cause qi to sink, and build in dantian, and yes as the channels open and the qi builds, the body fills up and the qi reaches both heaven and earth. And is also filled from heaven and earth. This is different to focusing in the head and raising the qi from the feet upwards. When you have a central focus, the qi will still go up and down, but overall is balanced. Like wise having the focal point at the feet draws the qi all the way down.

 

You can't sink ALL your qi, it's impossible. You can't raise ALL your qi it is also impossible. But you can create a dramatic difference between the two, and there are times when this is advocated or used. But more common is the central focus. Clearing the qi downwards which opens the energy-body causing a reciprocal upward flow, is a very different way of getting qi to rise. The rise is 'natural'.

 

However, this daoist neigong is not what most are putting within their standing practice. Some martial artists do this, others do not.

 

All the best,

Edited November 19, 2012 by snowmonki

[宁]

sorry snowmonki, English is not my mother tongue, sometimes it gets out of hand, the second statement is more true to the situation I'm experiencing. just trying to say there's always a way to overdo things,

thanks for the pointers though.

 

edit: I also did say COULD cause SLIGHTLY high bloodpressure I guess I focused on different words in that sentence

Edited November 19, 2012 by 宁

[寒月 Hanyue]

sorry snowmonki, English is not my mother tongue, sometimes it gets out of hand, the second statement is more true to the situation I'm experiencing. just trying to say there's always a way to overdo things,

thanks for the pointers though.

 

edit: I also did say COULD cause SLIGHTLY high bloodpressure I guess I focused on different words in that sentence

 

No problems mate, I understand. These language mis-understanding do happen haha. Glad it is the latter that you are experiencing

 

All the best,

Edited November 19, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

How do you know when your LDT is filled?

 

You'll know

 

But 'filled' always seems a bit erroneous to me. The Daoist neigong is to have your qi sink from above to pour into the field/dantian from above (it expands and opens hence 'filling'), spill this out and down so that it pours into earth, wait, no wait, wait, ah there is is, it rises back up and pours into field/dantian from below. Heaven and Earth and Man. As the dantian continues to be fed, it usually will kickstart the experience of various orbits or channels opening further and so forth as described by Turtle shell.

 

Regardless of 'felt' energy, if the body does not react and change with the energy then it's not quite right IMO.

 

And is Qi rising into your head a bad thing?

 

See my previously, probably excessive post

 

Best,

Edited November 19, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Perhaps too many folks get too caught up on dantiens, channels, chakras, nadis. Allowing the expansion to happen,without directing it was something new to me. Heck, I couldn't really sense my energy body until this year. Now I am able to 'play' with the expansion and direct it with my intention. What's more, I feel more 'me.'

 

Maybe some do.

 

The standing practices vary widely, in purpose, intent, and method. There is a reason for each of them.

 

These days, most fall back on Wang Xiangzhai's teachings, and even those get bastardised a lot.

 

What are you doing and why?

 

If you know that does it matter which method?

 

Best,

[steve]

@steve,

 

no I don't have any sinking Qi practices, I feel my energy makeup favours the rising Qi, I'm also a brainy type and have occasional anger issues, that would sum it up, I have no idea which is because of what.

 

 

On a general note, I see people insisting not to go over the 20 min timeframe, would you guys think that's reasonable? Is it possible I've overdone it?

'Cuz from what traditional schools seem to say, one 40 - 60 min is the least you can do if you are serious about it.

 

 

If you're a brainy type and tend to anger, this is why you feel the qi rising to your head. It is your tendency to be in your head and thoughts. Simply standing still without the proper internal attitude will not be any different than what you do the rest of your day. You will stay in your head. Since you are physically still, the thoughts and energy in your head will be emphasized. No surprise your blood pressure rises. Daoist practices, as a rule, take you out of your head (thoughts) and bring your awareness into the body (and eventually beyond but by then beyond has lost it's meaning). A skillful standing practice could be a great way to balance your tendency to be in your head but it's important to do it properly.

 

If you're new to standing meditation, here is one approach. I find this works well for most students.

 

1. 氣沉丹田 - qi chen dan tian - qi sinks to dan tian. This is the foundation. No need to worry about anything else but allowing the breath to gradually deepen and lengthen and allow your qi/awareness to sink to the lower dan tian. It's a good practice to link the sinking of the qi to dan tian to the exhalation in the beginning. Women need to be careful with this as it can bring too much focus to the pelvis. I've been told that some of the masters have women focus more on the middle dan tian, especially when they are menstruating.

 

2. Allow the body to move as needed to be comfortable and natural. Your posture will gradually improve with time and the body will find itself through adjustment. It's important to allow this adjustment to occur. Mostly the movement will be subtle and small, sometimes big and dramatic. No need to force it or look for it but don't fight it either. Adjust your feet and knees as needed for comfort. If the knees get sore, grip the ground very lightly with the toes. You may experience swaying, shudders, chills, yawning, belching, shaking, bending, jerking, spiraling, all kinds of stuff. It's not important, it's the body working through stuff, getting used to feeling itself and being the center of attention.

 

3. Don't fight the thoughts, don't try to force them out, notice when your attention is on the thoughts and lovingly remind yourself to attend to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. The mind will not be empty for long, watch the thoughts come and go, no need to add to them, no need to beat yourself up over their presence, they are the nature of your thinking mind. When you find yourself on the thought train, just return to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. I've come to thank them for doing so much to try and keep me safe and happy when they crop up. Then I return to my practice.

 

Three qualities should be present when you stand - Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 They're generally mentioned when discussing Taiji forms but are important in standing. They mean relaxed, tranquil, and natural. Another aspect to qi cultivation that I find very helpful is to look at qi a bit differently. This is heresy to some and is a product of my own practice and experience. Most people use the analogy of qi being something they can gather, gain, lose, store, use, and so on. They speak of qi as if it were some quantity of stuff and the dan tian as a physical bank for holding the stuff. Whether or not this is accurate, I find it to bring a quality of mind that can be limiting or even counterproductive. I like to take the position that qi is always already there. It is what I am and what everything already is. It already fully pervades and fills me and yet I can never contain it. It moves freely through me like water through an eddy, I am that but do not keep or store it. With this frame of mind, I approach qi cultivation as a process of becoming progressively more sensitive to what I am and getting to know the fabric of my being at deeper levels through sensitivity and awareness. Certainly behaviors can affect the quality and intensity of "my qi" (clean air, pure water, and nutritious food have their benefits), but "having more qi" is about being more directly and thoroughly connected between awareness and manifestation rather than filling an imaginary organ with an imaginary substance. Again, just a different perspective you could find useful.

 

In my experience, most people can easily stand for 15 - 20 minutes. Beyond that the physical body starts to complain. If you follow the method I outlined above, it is fairly easy for most students to achieve 30 - 60 minutes of standing practice in a matter of months. I think a consistent practice of modest, comfortable duration (daily or nearly so) is more important than infrequent, uncomfortable, marathon sessions. Over time you will work through a variety of different experiences and revelations. It is a very slow and painstaking process that requires patience and diligence. It can't be forced. Forcing yourself to stand for an hour when you're not ready will cause physical pain, tension, and ultimately be counterproductive. It needs to be a patient search for the mysterious and subtle... not a forced march.

 

Sorry to go on like that but I haven't had a good rant in a while and sometimes I just like to hear myself talk (?watch myself write) about one of my favorite subjects.

 

Good luck!

Edited November 20, 2012 by steve

[i am]

This is a great thread for me at this moment. Thanks, and keep it coming.

[宁]

If you're a brainy type and tend to anger, this is why you feel the qi rising to your head. It is your tendency to be in your head and thoughts. Simply standing still without the proper internal attitude will not be any different than what you do the rest of your day. You will stay in your head. Since you are physically still, the thoughts and energy in your head will be emphasized. No surprise your blood pressure rises. Daoist practices, as a rule, take you out of your head (thoughts) and bring your awareness into the body (and eventually beyond but by then beyond has lost it's meaning). A skillful standing practice could be a great way to balance your tendency to be in your head but it's important to do it properly.

 

If you're new to standing meditation, here is one approach. I find this works well for most students.

 

1. 氣沉丹田 - qi chen dan tian - qi sinks to dan tian. This is the foundation. No need to worry about anything else but allowing the breath to gradually deepen and lengthen and allow your qi/awareness to sink to the lower dan tian. It's a good practice to link the sinking of the qi to dan tian to the exhalation in the beginning. Women need to be careful with this as it can bring too much focus to the pelvis. I've been told that some of the masters have women focus more on the middle dan tian, especially when they are menstruating.

 

2. Allow the body to move as needed to be comfortable and natural. Your posture will gradually improve with time and the body will find itself through adjustment. It's important to allow this adjustment to occur. Mostly the movement will be subtle and small, sometimes big and dramatic. No need to force it or look for it but don't fight it either. Adjust your feet and knees as needed for comfort. If the knees get sore, grip the ground very lightly with the toes. You may experience swaying, shudders, chills, yawning, belching, shaking, bending, jerking, spiraling, all kinds of stuff. It's not important, it's the body working through stuff, getting used to feeling itself and being the center of attention.

 

3. Don't fight the thoughts, don't try to force them out, notice when your attention is on the thoughts and lovingly remind yourself to attend to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. The mind will not be empty for long, watch the thoughts come and go, no need to add to them, no need to beat yourself up over their presence, they are the nature of your thinking mind. When you find yourself on the thought train, just return to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. I've come to thank them for doing so much to try and keep me safe and happy when they crop up. Then I return to my practice.

 

Three qualities should be present when you stand - Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 They're generally mentioned when discussing Taiji forms but are important in standing. They mean relaxed, tranquil, and natural. Another aspect to qi cultivation that I find very helpful is to look at qi a bit differently. This is heresy to some and is a product of my own practice and experience. Most people use the analogy of qi being something they can gather, gain, lose, store, use, and so on. They speak of qi as if it were some quantity of stuff and the dan tian as a physical bank for holding the stuff. Whether or not this is accurate, I find it to bring a quality of mind that can be limiting or even counterproductive. I like to take the position that qi is always already there. It is what I am and what everything already is. It already fully pervades and fills me and yet I can never contain it. It moves freely through me like water through an eddy, I am that but do not keep or store it. With this frame of mind, I approach qi cultivation as a process of becoming progressively more sensitive to what I am and getting to know the fabric of my being at deeper levels through sensitivity and awareness. Certainly behaviors can affect the quality and intensity of "my qi" (clean air, pure water, and nutritious food have their benefits), but "having more qi" is about being more directly and thoroughly connected between awareness and manifestation rather than filling an imaginary organ with an imaginary substance. Again, just a different perspective you could find useful.

 

In my experience, most people can easily stand for 15 - 20 minutes. Beyond that the physical body starts to complain. If you follow the method I outlined above, it is fairly easy for most students to achieve 30 - 60 minutes of standing practice in a matter of months. I think a consistent practice of modest, comfortable duration (daily or nearly so) is more important than infrequent, uncomfortable, marathon sessions. Over time you will work through a variety of different experiences and revelations. It is a very slow and painstaking process that requires patience and diligence. It can't be forced. Forcing yourself to stand for an hour when you're not ready will cause physical pain, tension, and ultimately be counterproductive. It needs to be a patient search for the mysterious and subtle... not a forced march.

 

Sorry to go on like that but I haven't had a good rant in a while and sometimes I just like to hear myself talk (?watch myself write) about one of my favorite subjects.

 

Good luck!

 

I like the thoughtful and detailed reply, Steve,

 

I'm a type that likes being inside the body and body oriented practices, and would never abandon that for living in the head, it's too damn limiting,

what I was pointing at are some factors of my personality that could be favouring rising Qi as it is,

sometimes it's difficult to get personal experiences across, and rising Qi has most certainly not been the only one that I've encountered with the ZZ,

I feel somewhat embarassed to say this, because you guys put alot of thought and compassion into giving advice, but it wasn't really that necessary..

 

I trust my own experience and feelings, and I'm opened to compare and share notes with others'.

 

Speaking of which,

 

I never involved mental activity into ZZ, sometimes I'd just watch TV or a movie and just standing ~ it was an experiment that proved that at least to me ZZ is about standing (with the right adjustments though) period.

I remembered something I read in a book about a Taiji master's child, that would confess: father makes me stand like this everyday for an hour, and I have to comply else he just beats me. Haha. Do you imagine that kid focusing of specific points and breathing patterns? But his father knew, he just had to stand, as a tree, and the inner strenght will grow with time.

 

I have reasons to suspect that is the way most of the grand masters of Taiji or Wushu in China learned as kids

And as kids, their training would be measured Not in minutes, but in Chinese hours, that is, cycles of two hours.

The idea of 认真 in the Chinese tradition is really tough and harsh training, our Western attitude is way way too mild.

Standing for 5 -20 minutes in 站桩， in China...? Is that a joke? But we here think that's how we're 'training' to become immortals or have superpowers.

I exaggerated just a tiny bit, to get the idea across... a huge imbalance between effort and expectations..

 

 

Edit just to complete the idea: there's nothing 自然 about it, or mild and sweet in real training to them, there's alot of forcing and straining and pain, that you have to outgrow and step over your own limitations. That's how you develop, that's how you grow. Please do not confuse the stuff that the Chinese teachers teach to the Westerners, with the real training that they themselves have undergone (and possibly teach their on offstprings in).

 

Anyway, this is still Just my 0,2's

Edited November 20, 2012 by 宁

[ChiDragon]

宁...

 

Totally agree.

It's better coming out from your mouth than mine.....

Edited November 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[i am]

Agreed. When I spent two weeks (nothing, I know) training with a teacher in China, the first time he had me do ZZ, he left me for 45 minutes with a bowl of water on my head...

 

The water thing he only did that once, I think to give me a feel for pushing my head up, and keeping straight up & down, but other than that, that was the routine every morning. He said, through an interpreter, when I mentioned that was the longest I had stood in ZZ by probably 25 minutes up until that morning, "now you'll be able to start holding it even longer".

[steve]

I like the thoughtful and detailed reply, Steve,

 

I'm a type that likes being inside the body and body oriented practices, and would never abandon that for living in the head, it's too damn limiting,

what I was pointing at are some factors of my personality that could be favouring rising Qi as it is,

sometimes it's difficult to get personal experiences across, and rising Qi has most certainly not been the only one that I've encountered with the ZZ,

I feel somewhat embarassed to say this, because you guys put alot of thought and compassion into giving advice, but it wasn't really that necessary..

 

I trust my own experience and feelings, and I'm opened to compare and share notes with others'.

 

Speaking of which,

 

I never involved mental activity into ZZ, sometimes I'd just watch TV or a movie and just standing ~ it was an experiment that proved that at least to me ZZ is about standing (with the right adjustments though) period.

I remembered something I read in a book about a Taiji master's child, that would confess: father makes me stand like this everyday for an hour, and I have to comply else he just beats me. Haha. Do you imagine that kid focusing of specific points and breathing patterns? But his father knew, he just had to stand, as a tree, and the inner strenght will grow with time.

 

I have reasons to suspect that is the way most of the grand masters of Taiji or Wushu in China learned as kids

And as kids, their training would be measured Not in minutes, but in Chinese hours, that is, cycles of two hours.

The idea of 认真 in the Chinese tradition is really tough and harsh training, our Western attitude is way way too mild.

Standing for 5 -20 minutes in 站桩， in China...? Is that a joke? But we here think that's how we're 'training' to become immortals or have superpowers.

I exaggerated just a tiny bit, to get the idea across... a huge imbalance between effort and expectations..

 

 

Edit just to complete the idea: there's nothing 自然 about it, or mild and sweet in real training to them, there's alot of forcing and straining and pain, that you have to outgrow and step over your own limitations. That's how you develop, that's how you grow. Please do not confuse the stuff that the Chinese teachers teach to the Westerners, with the real training that they themselves have undergone (and possibly teach their on offstprings in).

 

Anyway, this is still Just my 0,2's

Thanks for clarifying - I was just reacting to your earlier words about being in your head and anger.

Sorry if I was presumptuous.

 

Physically harsh training definitely has it's place, especially for young people.

At some point in our lives, the physical punishment doesn't work any more as a tool for growth and development.

That's when the value of neigong becomes more obvious.