BaGua Help

[baiqi]

I remember watching dr Xie Peiqi, thinking "this must be the ugliest bagua I've ever seen". However, he was indeed very good at bagua as a fighting and healing art.

 

Most of baguazhang is beautiful, but I also believe this can be one of its flaws: you want to look beautiful, and so what you finally do is...dancing. Nothing wrong with that, except if you believe you're doing martial arts!

It's no coincidence that bagua has its modern wushu comptetitions.

In Wong Kar Wai's last movie, you see Zhang Ziyi perform baguazhang as a dance (she was a dancer before, actually), and in the whole movie all bagua practicioners are women, which makes it look like a " girls martial art".

 

I really question this idea of aesthetics, while I sometimes enjoy it.

 

When some people say my baguazhang is beautiful, I get angry and kill them all with my iron palm prefer to say that I try to make my movements "harmonious", which is not the same. Especially, it's not about flowery movements.

 

I find a bagua master doing something very simple, like the single palm change with internal energy far more "beautiful" than those who do crazy athletic stuff.

 

Generally speaking, I would say that "looking good" is an enjoyable by-product of bagua, but should not be the goal (unless you want to do bagua dance)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

From my observation, I think the beauty of Bagua is when the player has such a strong stability in their stance while following the chi and just seems almost to blow around like a leaf, like their sitting stably in a throne that's being blown around in a tornado; balance of flexibility and strength working together without limiting either one.

[zerostao]

[Sifu ReL]

hehehee, yall really kept this thread goin for a year.....hehehe....

[zerostao]

hehehee, yall really kept this thread goin for a year.....hehehe....

now we can begin to transition from the first trigram to the second

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[zerostao]

it is a good video gerard. that master is focused and rooted. i reckon my "dancin" metaphor was taken a bit too literal.

i was trying to illustrate how the footwork is far more important than any iron palm.

and i dont know any bgz palyers who do not have iron palm and it always comes back to the walking.

and how , when one reaches a certain level of walking, it becomes effortless like a dance.

fa jin is one thing, fa chi is another, and fa shen is yet another. energetic awareness and my health are what i am happiest most about with my bagua play.

[JustBHappy]

Personally I'm all for dancing and developing my Bagua to the point where it is beautiful.

 

Having skills that are beautiful to watch does not in any way, exclude having those same skills transfer over into martial, spiritual and healing. Ge GouLiang (the author of that quote) and his lineage of Gao Bagua is extremely effective, in fact I've never met any Gao stylist with experience that wasn't quite formidable. I've crossed hands with people from many many styles and I know from experience that it's the dancers that always end up leaving me on the ground saying "what happened?"

The stiff, hard, external players that have no rhythm and flow to their movements are much much easier to deal with and read. The same goes with chi development. Relaxation and smooth steady movements are what promote chi development.

If someone says my Bagua looks like a beautiful dance, I will say "thank you! Would you like to dance?"

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'd say if one gets from Bagua what they get from dancing, they'd surely benefit far more than from doing empty forms....

[zerostao]

ironically the bagua celestial masters have decided that i should injure my left foot.

this reinforces my case about the importance of stepping. i stil have my iron palm , but at present it is gonna be hard to use it.

hey you, over there, step over here so i can strike you!

its kinda like north korea , i think, sure, they have a nuke in their arsenal, but do they have the proper delivery system?

if their opponent can easily intercept, what good does it do?

i wish i was dancin' instead of hobbling.

and to a bagua dancer, it looks like everyone else is hobbling,

hobbling aint cool

[spiraltao]

Hope for a speedy recovery for ya Zero

[joeblast]

stand on the good leg, medial and lateral ankle rotations with left knee at 90 degrees - 90 allows for the most tibia/fibula movement

[zerostao]

thanks for sending the healing medicine my way. the foot is healed 100%

and yesterdays barefoot bgz in my own backyard was fantastic.

there is good medicine here on ttb

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[BaguaKicksAss]

ironically the bagua celestial masters have decided that i should injure my left foot.

this reinforces my case about the importance of stepping. i stil have my iron palm , but at present it is gonna be hard to use it.

hey you, over there, step over here so i can strike you!

its kinda like north korea , i think, sure, they have a nuke in their arsenal, but do they have the proper delivery system?

if their opponent can easily intercept, what good does it do?

i wish i was dancin' instead of hobbling.

and to a bagua dancer, it looks like everyone else is hobbling,

hobbling aint cool

Funny thing, I learned some of my best Bagua after I ended up with a broken foot (that class sucked lol). I got to ask the question of "I can't circle walk, please give me some other stuff to do". Wow, some of that other stuff was amazing . Oh wait, I see your foot is all better now, awesome. I hope you learned some cool stuff while you couldn't use it.

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard

[mkim680]

Does anyone know much about yin yang bagua zhang? How is it different from the Dong Hai Chuan influenced baguazhang?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm sure you have read them already, but all I know of it was found here http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua.html

[zerostao]

[steve]

Sorry to drag this up but I haven't been here for a bit.

My teacher also emphasized these points and I find both have been critically important in physical and energetic growth.

Our lineage comes from Cheng Tinghua through Chen Haiting (among others).

 

Gerard, have you ever come across videos of accomplished practitioners whose feet are completely flat both when they leave the ground and then return to it (ie, instead of rolling the foot when lifting it and/or putting it down?) The importance of keeping the foot flat, especially when lifting it, has been heavily emphasized to me by a teacher in Shanghai, and my suspicion from my own beginners' practice is that this difficult point, if it can be successfully adhered to, stimulates the entire yin qiao mai 阴跷脉 when the foot is lifted. Rolling the foot, therefore, exerts a very different effect on the qi of the body. Considering that Dong Haichuan emphasizes keeping the foot flat in the songs, I am always a bit perplexed as to why so few teachers seem to include this practice. What I refer to can be seen starting at 1:19 or so here: http://www.56.com/u54/v_NjUyMjM3ODY.html

 

Additionally, have you come across videos with practitioners whose chests consistently face the center of the circle, and not just their heads and arms? The importance of this point was emphasized to me in Beijing by a member of the Baguazhang Research Association, a man in his mid-sixties in incredible shape, who, to illustrate his point, stood up, and with his feet parallel and facing in one direction, twisted his entire body so that his chest was relaxedly facing the exact opposite direction, 180 degrees away! (I know of no videos of this man online, nor could I find record of his name online--he could also touch his elbow to his foot while sitting, with his leg straight... pretty flexible for a guy in his sixties!). Part of the reason this twist is so important, he said, is that it results in a massage of all the internal organs. I have heard, also, that students of Pei Xirong in Shanghai used to practice this twist to such a degree that their chests were facing behind them while they walked the circle. If you observe most videos, however, the practitioners' chests face in the direction they are walking.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[steve]

There are several types of stepping in Bagua and they all serve their purpose, but ultimately the most important points of practice are the following (in terms of internal development, health and harmony with the Tao/enlightenment):

 

1. Mindfulness. Single most important point. Are you focused while you practice or are you letting worldly affairs and worries interfere with your practice? Is your mind empty or is the monkey mind in full control?

2. Morality. Continuous work on this aspect will improve your practice

3. Focus on internal work (jing-qi-shen) and walk the circle soft like a baby would crawl on the floow, relaxed allowing for that feeling to occur. The Chinese term for this is "xian tian." Don't get caught up with "form" and "learning too many forms" because it will only lead to wushu.

4. Circle walk.

5. Body twisting

6. Eight Mother Palms and Single Palm Change.

7. Feeling of the core. Always emphasise and pay more attention to waist movement and core power (point no. 3). Walk the circle slowly (huan in Chinese), softly/smoothly/relaxed and well-rooted (refer to points no 1 & 4).

8. Don't overdo your practice. Train at 70% of your capacity. Confucian law of balance and harmony.

9. Good diet, rest and schedule. If you eat junk or convenient food, food that promotes dampness, drink alcohol and practice too much sex, it will have a detrimental effect in your practice. Training inconsistenly will slow down your practice. Training too much will also slow it down and ultimately make you very sick.

 

Note: points 1 & 2 are in accordance with the Noble Eightfold Path.

 

Very good stuff, thanks for sharing that. I think that variations on a theme with respect to what is emphasized is what makes each style unique and beautiful.

 

We practice both 龍形八卦遊身掌 (Swimming Dragon style) and Sun Style and it is instructive to compare and contrast the differences and similarities. I prefer the swimming dragon style and focus on that right now but, in the long run, I think any credible style can get you where you want to be provided you are a good student and you have a good teacher.

[Trunk]

... whose chests consistently face the center of the circle, and not just their heads and arms?

 

The relevant phrase that I've heard is "separating the waist from the hips".

My experience of this, in recent DGS practice... The hips are stable and anchored to the earth. The rib cage is filled with heaven and so naturally lifts and expands, like a helium balloon. Between is the waist, which swivels like one of those fishing swivels. (And also, yes, the spine twists along the entire length.)

 

I've never seen/heard of someone turning their spine 180 degrees. It's not something I currently understand nor aspire to. The above is just the bit that I've heard that is at least a little relevant.

[spiraltao]

excellent summation (is that a word?) of the dragon body foundation IMO.

The seperation twist should slowly be built and the waist must do before the feet eventually linking the whole body. An instructor for alignment and dilligent play and ones conscience will lead the way.

Edited July 9, 2013 by spiraltao

[Gerard]

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Gerard