Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[gendao]

Actually evidence shows that it only works on the believers. Please show me a single authentic clip on the net that supports what you are saying.

Maybe Taomeow can shoot some videos with the 3 guys she mentions...but I agree that it is possible.

 

However, probably moreso amongst neigong masters (like at least a low-level John Djiang-type) than Taijiquan masters - since the real short/peng jin ability is entirely qi-based. As opposed to a Bruce Lee/wing chun-style 1" punch - which is still impressive, but more just well-coordinated body mechanics..

 

And in the qi department, neigong masters are generally far more advanced than martial arts masters...

Edited August 4, 2011 by vortex

[on the path]

I have never seen anyone who can do the real 'fa jin'. There are a lot of fakes! Real cultivation of the 'fa' means real knowledge. not many people posses this knowledge. When someone has cultivated their 'fa', they can extend it from their body without moving. Real 'fa jin' will damage and bruise the person who it has hit. A GOOD TEST OF 'fA JIN' WILL BE IF THE RECIPIENT HAS BEEN BADLY BRUISED. No other test will be full proof than this. Hope this helps?

[templetao]

I have never seen anyone who can do the real 'fa jin'. There are a lot of fakes! Real cultivation of the 'fa' means real knowledge. not many people posses this knowledge. When someone has cultivated their 'fa', they can extend it from their body without moving. Real 'fa jin' will damage and bruise the person who it has hit. A GOOD TEST OF 'fA JIN' WILL BE IF THE RECIPIENT HAS BEEN BADLY BRUISED. No other test will be full proof than this. Hope this helps?

 

 

Yeah theres a good reason for that.

 

Just imagine if John Chang went to 1 of his students and said come here i want to test my chi projection ability on you. That would kind of be unethical right?

 

So any real internal power master does not "test" his inner power on his students. he can demonstrate the nature of inner power thru other means but he just wouldnt project it at him.

 

Even jing can break bones quite easily.

 

I have tapped people on the back and they have went flying because some of my internal power just so happened to come out.

 

You can tell if some of these "chi masters" have power or not just by the nature of the demonstration that they do.

[Gerard]

Now the "no touch" or "empty force" or whatever you want to call it is the stuff of myth and legend. I have never seen a video that convinced me that it exists including all of the videos posted in this thread - every one of them is no more than a parlor trick.

 

Well the video about master Huang is very real...trust me.

 

And there is physical contact but the force is transmitted via Yi and Qi. Empty force or Taiji jin not jedi powers shown in the movies.

 

 

My teacher cannot produce it and has been a dedicated student and teacher of the Chinese internal and external arts for 50 years. He's very accomplished and can cause exactly the type of experience Taomeow and h.uriahr describe but contact is necessary.

 

Karma.

[zerostao]

Well the video about master Huang is very real...trust me.

 

And there is physical contact but the force is transmitted via Yi and Qi. Empty force or Taiji jin not jedi powers shown in the movies.

 

 

 

 

Karma.

Gerrard, would you say there are diferent levels of fa jin? for example if someone had a sorta clumsy fa jin (relative) to another with a more refined fa jin, could the more refined guy use the clumsy guys own fa jin against him?

is there a difference between fa chi and fa jin?

for the record i do believe fa jin exists and can be used. i have no reason not to believe that steve f has usable(relative)fa jin.

and i liked his posts. i know i went off topic as the Op suggests this needs to be somehow proven under controlled settings. i disagree with that but that is just my opinion.

[templetao]

Gerrard, would you say there are diferent levels of fa jin? for example if someone had a sorta clumsy fa jin (relative) to another with a more refined fa jin, could the more refined guy use the clumsy guys own fa jin against him?

is there a difference between fa chi and fa jin?

for the record i do believe fa jin exists and can be used. i have no reason not to believe that steve f has usable(relative)fa jin.

and i liked his posts. i know i went off topic as the Op suggests this needs to be somehow proven under controlled settings. i disagree with that but that is just my opinion.

 

Go to Master Waysun Liao.

Edited August 4, 2011 by templetao

[Sloppy Zhang]

As for showing you a clip on the net, you must have missed what I was saying. You can't find a clip of a psychosomatosensory experience on the net. You can have the experience or not, but you can't show it to others.

 

You can show a perfectly healthy young person reeling from what appears to be a non-serious blow from a much older person.

 

You can show someone's feet flying out from under them in a round of push hands, and can see (even if you have to go frame by frame) the breakdown of their structure and loss of balance.

 

So no, we can't show a video clip that tells us whether someone is having a subjective experience of them losing their sense of up or down, or the feeling of having their feet sliding on ice or watermelon. But we CAN make a video which shows what is happening to their body as a result of that. And, depending on how far said master is willing to go in the demonstration, and how much punishment the young person is willing to take, we may be able to extrapolate that out to how a fight would go between them.

[zerostao]

sloppy zhang

"But we CAN make a video which shows what is happening to their body as a result of that. And, depending on how far said master is willing to go in the demonstration, and how much punishment the young person is willing to take, we may be able to extrapolate that out to how a fight would go between them."

 

nope we cannot

Edited August 4, 2011 by zerostao

[The Way Is Virtue]

Since there has also been some discussion about empty force (Ling kong jin) in this thread, I thought I would add this story about Feng Zhiqiang that is from a translation by Chen Zhonghua of parts of a biography of Feng Zhiqiang by Pan Houcheng.:

 

"Since reaching the age of 70, Master Feng does not use much obvious power during his push hands sessions any more. Some speculated that maybe he is getting on and lost his power. Nothing is farther from the truth. According to the theory of taiji, the highest level should be power with emptiness. The power is exhibited as one's soul, not the physical body. When he was teaching a seminar in Europe in 2000, he was doing some relaxing push hands with an attendee one day. His eyes were closed and his body relaxed. He was simply flowing with his opponent. He was so relaxed that it appeared that he was falling asleep. His opponent saw a good opportunity and gave a sudden powerful double-handed push to his chest. Before the hands reached Feng, his eyes opened. His opponent went flying backward and fell against a tree about 10 feet away. No one was able to see what Feng did. The opponent later reported that he was quite sure a beam of light like lightning shot out of Feng's eyes and blew him away. Could it be the Feng has reached the highest level of taijiquan?"

 

Ok, that is only a story and is just based on some students' account of what happened, but it is an interesting story none the less. Could such an event as described above just be caused by psychological pre-conditioning only? Maybe. Exageration? Maybe. Maybe not. Without being there and witnessing the whole event and knowing the people involved it would certainly be hard to say either way. Apparently even those who witnessed the event were not even sure what exactly happened.

Edited August 4, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Sloppy Zhang]

sloppy zhang

"But we CAN make a video which shows what is happening to their body as a result of that. And, depending on how far said master is willing to go in the demonstration, and how much punishment the young person is willing to take, we may be able to extrapolate that out to how a fight would go between them."

 

nope we cannot

 

Yes we can.

 

Get a master, get a volunteer "attacker". Master issues their force. Video clearly captures the volunteer reeling, vomiting, coughing up blood, being paralyzed until the master hits the proper pressure points, flies away, or whatever else their issuance of force entails.

 

We ask the master and the volunteer if they want to continue. They both say okay. The "attacker" is told to be more aggressive, will do their best to fight the effects of the master.

 

Video clearly shows the master wiping the floor with this volunteer.

 

Let's assume that both wish to continue. Volunteer and master both agree to the attacker going "all out" (the master, out of kindness and to avoid lawsuits, even though all parties involved really should sign some kind of a waiver, holds back on his instant death skills). So the attacker is going to try and knock this master's head off.

 

Video clearly shows the master wiping the floor with this volunteer in all manner of ways.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

A detailed examination by skilled physician(s) can appraise the state of the body before (during?) and after the demonstration. So if the volunteer subjectively experienced blurred or warped vision, loss of balance, sickness, or pain in any part of the body, we can see if there is corresponding bodily evidence that such events happened- concussion, fractures, organ bruising, etc etc etc.

 

Breakdown of the video evidence can reveal how a master can make subtle shifts in their own posture, or, perhaps more reliably, how an "amateur" has their balance and their body's structural integrity breaks down when put under pressure by a master.

 

So, again, we can't make a video about how someone feels when they are being set upon by a master. But we CAN make a video which shows the effects of such techniques. And, based on the ease with which the master may implement a technique, compared with how much damage it could inflict, we may extrapolate that to how useful it may be in any number of different encounters.

 

And I don't think there is any shortage of amateur MMAists who would laugh off any threats of "fa jin" damage in the face of their superior external training, and who, I'm sure, would love to help banish martial myths.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[steve]

Well the video about master Huang is very real...trust me.

Sorry, not going to trust you on that one. I would have to experience it myself.

Every video I've seen of him is absolutely phony.

Look at 0:41 in your clip, why does the opponent turn and face the direction he is being propelled? Because there are people there. When he knows there's no one behind him he doesn't turn, until of course he goes far enough to get close to running into anyone which we see at 0:54. Then there's the double jump at 1:09. It's all fake. I've seen it many times by many masters. Trust me.

 

 

Karma.

I agree, it is his karma that he doesn't try to bullshit people.

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful but I find it demeaning to the art of Taijiquan and the hard work that real martial artists put into what they do to see this sort of sideshow put on. it's an old "master" and his pandering students putting on a show. It's not martial art. It's not fa jin. Perhaps he has some real skill but it's not on display in your clip. Like I've said before - you can feel fa jin but you can't know if you're seeing it in a video clip.

[zerostao]

Yes we can.

 

Get a master, get a volunteer "attacker". Master issues their force. Video clearly captures the volunteer reeling, vomiting, coughing up blood, being paralyzed until the master hits the proper pressure points, flies away, or whatever else their issuance of force entails.

 

We ask the master and the volunteer if they want to continue. They both say okay. The "attacker" is told to be more aggressive, will do their best to fight the effects of the master.

 

Video clearly shows the master wiping the floor with this volunteer.

 

Let's assume that both wish to continue. Volunteer and master both agree to the attacker going "all out" (the master, out of kindness and to avoid lawsuits, even though all parties involved really should sign some kind of a waiver, holds back on his instant death skills). So the attacker is going to try and knock this master's head off.

 

Video clearly shows the master wiping the floor with this volunteer in all manner of ways.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

A detailed examination by skilled physician(s) can appraise the state of the body before (during?) and after the demonstration. So if the volunteer subjectively experienced blurred or warped vision, loss of balance, sickness, or pain in any part of the body, we can see if there is corresponding bodily evidence that such events happened- concussion, fractures, organ bruising, etc etc etc.

 

Breakdown of the video evidence can reveal how a master can make subtle shifts in their own posture, or, perhaps more reliably, how an "amateur" has their balance and their body's structural integrity breaks down when put under pressure by a master.

 

So, again, we can't make a video about how someone feels when they are being set upon by a master. But we CAN make a video which shows the effects of such techniques. And, based on the ease with which the master may implement a technique, compared with how much damage it could inflict, we may extrapolate that to how useful it may be in any number of different encounters.

 

And I don't think there is any shortage of amateur MMAists who would laugh off any threats of "fa jin" damage in the face of their superior external training, and who, I'm sure, would love to help banish martial myths.

fantasy

[Taomeow]

You can show a perfectly healthy young person reeling from what appears to be a non-serious blow from a much older person.

 

You can show someone's feet flying out from under them in a round of push hands, and can see (even if you have to go frame by frame) the breakdown of their structure and loss of balance.

 

So no, we can't show a video clip that tells us whether someone is having a subjective experience of them losing their sense of up or down, or the feeling of having their feet sliding on ice or watermelon. But we CAN make a video which shows what is happening to their body as a result of that. And, depending on how far said master is willing to go in the demonstration, and how much punishment the young person is willing to take, we may be able to extrapolate that out to how a fight would go between them.

 

Well, I for one would be unable to tell a fake from a no fake from a video, I don't know enough about video-making techniques -- make it "nothing at all" -- and that's not the only problem. My teacher sometimes does a thing in class when he's in the mood, e.g. he will show a move slowly and then go, "but you can speed it up like this" -- and next thing you know is, he's disappeared from where he was in a blur of confusing something or other that does not resemble the human form, and resumes talking to us from a different spot all the way across the room, and all his students just look at each other and nobody understands what happened in between. I have no idea how a video could capture this moment of utter cancellation of all laws of physics we all know and love. If someone caught it on camera, however, I'm pretty sure it would have been declared fake.

 

The ubiquity of youtube-derived pictures of the world makes one feel as though the world is reducible to a youtube video. This, on top of all the other reductionist goodies that have reduced what we experience to what we are "allowed" to experience, goodies that masquerade as "modern science" and have already curtailed the possible and the probable to fit in whatever they can handle on a nine to five schedule of comprehending reality.

 

But it's an old conversation actually... experience vs. evidence vs. interpretations of someone else's experience vs. censorship of evidence that does not fit in with the dominant baboon's paradigm. Plus, of course, the inevitable fakes. I think reductionists ought to be grateful to fakes who are the only reason their paradigm appears strong -- it is strong compared to the fake stuff to be sure, but very weak when trying to tackle the real stuff. Very, very feckless. I wouldn't bother with "studies" because where live phenomena are concerned, the reductionist approach can't yield any results meaningful on any terms but its own, and its own terms demand a rigorous "study of songbird from a collection of stuffed nightingales," to quote Alan Watts.

[Stigweard]

..

 

Edited August 5, 2011 by Stigweard

[Sloppy Zhang]

My teacher sometimes does a thing in class when he's in the mood, e.g. he will show a move slowly and then go, "but you can speed it up like this" -- and next thing you know is, he's disappeared from where he was in a blur of confusing something or other that does not resemble the human form, and resumes talking to us from a different spot all the way across the room, and all his students just look at each other and nobody understands what happened in between. I have no idea how a video could capture this moment of utter cancellation of all laws of physics we all know and love. If someone caught it on camera, however, I'm pretty sure it would have been declared fake.

 

Sounds pretty awesome

 

I think it's clear to everyone that video evidence alone is not going to be the final arbiter of any of these skills for any masters. Video would be taken as a means of record keeping, and also later analysis. But there would also be plenty of on scene people, researchers who could examine the body before, possibly during, depending on the equipment, and after.

 

I mean, basically, full study, peer review, repeat it, etc etc. None of this post a video to youtube stuff.

 

Because then it's just a back and forth of "that hit looked fake, he took the fall", "no way man, you don't know what you're talking about, that master hit me once, and it hurt like hell", "that's because you've never had a day of real MA training in your life", "no way dude, before I met this master, I was a black belt in Brazilian jujutsu and aikido and karate and savate and I was doing the amateur MMA circuit, this guy is for real, you're a keyboard warrior".

Edited August 5, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Stigweard]

Sounds pretty awesome

 

I think it's clear to everyone that video evidence alone is not going to be the final arbiter of any of these skills for any masters. Video would be taken as a means of record keeping, and also later analysis. But there would also be plenty of on scene people, researchers who could examine the body before, possibly during, depending on the equipment, and after.

 

I mean, basically, full study, peer review, repeat it, etc etc. None of this post a video to youtube stuff.

 

Because then it's just a back and forth of "that hit looked fake, he took the fall", "no way man, you don't know what you're talking about, that master hit me once, and it hurt like hell", "that's because you've never had a day of real MA training in your life", "no way dude, before I met this master, I was a black belt in Brazilian jujutsu and aikido and karate and savate and I was doing the amateur MMA circuit, this guy is for real, you're a keyboard warrior".

Look see SZ ... we actually agree on something

[Stigweard]

Sorry, not going to trust you on that one. I would have to experience it myself.

Every video I've seen of him is absolutely phony.

Look at 0:41 in your clip, why does the opponent turn and face the direction he is being propelled? Because there are people there. When he knows there's no one behind him he doesn't turn, until of course he goes far enough to get close to running into anyone which we see at 0:54. Then there's the double jump at 1:09. It's all fake. I've seen it many times by many masters. Trust me.

 

 

 

I agree, it is his karma that he doesn't try to bullshit people.

I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful but I find it demeaning to the art of Taijiquan and the hard work that real martial artists put into what they do to see this sort of sideshow put on. it's an old "master" and his pandering students putting on a show. It's not martial art. It's not fa jin. Perhaps he has some real skill but it's not on display in your clip. Like I've said before - you can feel fa jin but you can't know if you're seeing it in a video clip.

What a shame I can't hit that little button more than once.

 

[dawei]

I am a gemini, so I get to present two sides to this issue

 

One Side:

As a few related, I have also been on the receiving end of what is being discussed here. It is too hard to explain the sensation; maybe like a lightning strike or a Tazer but I don't want to truly test either theory

 

You truly feel for a moment you have lost all coordination and balance and sensory control and you fight to find it as the effect wears off quickly as you disconnect.

 

But I do think that the prejudice of students being shown with masters makes the "show" look too good to be true.

 

On the other hand:

We need better evaluation methods and controlled tests as Stig puts forth. Here is the rub: these kinds of people are a bit 'above' this. I am not sure how else to say it. But what would be best to have is not even feasible on a practical level. Guys like John Chang are hidden away and hard to find for a reason; They actually want to be left alone from the idea of 'testing'. I have found this in a few chinese 'healers' when in china. They are very recluse and one can feel they also 'hide the family teaching'.

 

Here is something I will share which is not quite to this exact issue but relates to my points made; I have a back condition which has a spinal bone out of place (about an inch) and wreaks havoc on my body at times. Over 20 years I now see this is the source for many issues that have arise which everyone keeps trying to deal with independently. I have seen many people and most in the west are clueless as to any help,except surgery (as the typical answer). Cranio-sacral therapy is high on the list but they expect the body to 'heal itself'; moving a bone fixed in place for probably 30 years is not going to happen over night. So, the options grow very dim if you have a dislodged L5 on the spine, despite it's well known condition.

 

I have finally find a "healer" in china who is willing to look at me and says he can fix this. His specialty is actually bone displacement. I had a number of people go watch him and let them be worked on. In all cases so far, they all said a previously diagnosed problem is now gone; in most cases, they were bone related and xrays confirm it. Here is the Rub (all over again): This guy is hard to find. You cannot go to him; he goes to your location. he has no phone and there is no means of contacting him. His 'trade' is 'family secret' but he will come if you find him. I now know how to find him and plan later in the year to go.

 

Now. Regardless of my outcome, and maybe he can perform an extreme fix to an L5 dislodged by an inch; you will never get this guy under a microscope; your lucky to find him. Guys at this level want to be left alone. I found other healers in north china and its all the same; family secret but they don't care if you believe it or not.

 

Keep up the good work here Stig and keep us all honest

[Stigweard]

I am a gemini, so I get to present two sides to this issue

 

One Side:

As a few related, I have also been on the receiving end of what is being discussed here. It is too hard to explain the sensation; maybe like a lightning strike or a Tazer but I don't want to truly test either theory

 

You truly feel for a moment you have lost all coordination and balance and sensory control and you fight to find it as the effect wears off quickly as you disconnect.

 

But I do think that the prejudice of students being shown with masters makes the "show" look too good to be true.

 

On the other hand:

We need better evaluation methods and controlled tests as Stig puts forth. Here is the rub: these kinds of people are a bit 'above' this. I am not sure how else to say it. But what would be best to have is not even feasible on a practical level. Guys like John Chang are hidden away and hard to find for a reason; They actually want to be left alone from the idea of 'testing'. I have found this in a few chinese 'healers' when in china. They are very recluse and one can feel they also 'hide the family teaching'.

 

Here is something I will share which is not quite to this exact issue but relates to my points made; I have a back condition which has a spinal bone out of place (about an inch) and wreaks havoc on my body at times. Over 20 years I now see this is the source for many issues that have arise which everyone keeps trying to deal with independently. I have seen many people and most in the west are clueless as to any help,except surgery (as the typical answer). Cranio-sacral therapy is high on the list but they expect the body to 'heal itself'; moving a bone fixed in place for probably 30 years is not going to happen over night. So, the options grow very dim if you have a dislodged L5 on the spine, despite it's well known condition.

 

I have finally find a "healer" in china who is willing to look at me and says he can fix this. His specialty is actually bone displacement. I had a number of people go watch him and let them be worked on. In all cases so far, they all said a previously diagnosed problem is now gone; in most cases, they were bone related and xrays confirm it. Here is the Rub (all over again): This guy is hard to find. You cannot go to him; he goes to your location. he has no phone and there is no means of contacting him. His 'trade' is 'family secret' but he will come if you find him. I now know how to find him and plan later in the year to go.

 

Now. Regardless of my outcome, and maybe he can perform an extreme fix to an L5 dislodged by an inch; you will never get this guy under a microscope; your lucky to find him. Guys at this level want to be left alone. I found other healers in north china and its all the same; family secret but they don't care if you believe it or not.

 

Keep up the good work here Stig and keep us all honest

Thanks for sharing Dawei ... good luck with your healer ... hope it works

 

Part of my "Agenda" is really about the chaps who are out there advertising their skills and generally making a bad name for Taijiquan and the internal arts through their fraudulent claims.

 

Perhaps on a deeper level I am looking for my next teacher and I am just sorting the wheat from the chaff LOL

 

[paulno]

I'm probably one of the lesser experienced people here when it comes to martial arts, only taking a few classes here and there. I've always giggled watching people not touch their students, and then having said students jumping backwards as proof of some force from being cultivated through intense whatever.

 

At the same time, I sort of felt guilty about laughing. Thinking maybe its just my lack of understanding and ignorance on this matter. I'd like to thank more experienced people for posting here and very much confirming my suspicions.

 

It may exist in some way, shape, or form. But, most of the people Youtubing it aren't very believable in my opinion.

[Cat Pillar]

What I CAN do is introduce you to at least three people who can give you the experience. Come visit, I'll put you in touch. One of them is 80 and quite likely to give you the full monty rather than just a taste if you ask him nicely, because by this late in the day he's run out of patience with all the perennial beginners, dabblers, holders of opinions and non-believers in this and that that are the current Western and Westernized Chinese taiji scene, on top of which he doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks of him. I guarantee you don't have to believe in anything to experience him, or your money back.

 

Is that invitation open to anyone?

[Stigweard]

The "problem" I have with fa jin demonstrations is that there is so much BS out there. We have dozens of wannabe's performing demonstrations that deserve Oscars, and as soon as anyone challenges these claims they are censured and ridiculed for asking the obvious (as I have discovered ).

 

In my FB discussions one person did actually get my point:

 

"I, personally, find it exciting that these skills are being brought out into the light of appreciation. This will clear the air of fakers, innocent misunderstanding, useless practices, and Tie-Chee. Also, this will allow us to appreciate the incredible science of the internal arts. I can't even imagine how much skill, time, and physical genius has gone into creating this system! It deserves appreciation by a wider audience than the lucky indoor few."

 

In the wider martial arts world we are being laughed at all over the world. Taiji is just a big JOKE and it is all because we have these frauds standing up trying to say that what they have is the true Taiji.

 

But as I pointedly asked ... where's the proof?

 

And just me feeling a "Master's" touch is not enough. I am also a professional Magician and Mentalist, and it is frighteningly easy for people to fool themselves into believing in lie.

 

Because there is a universal absence of scientific proof which can be used as a baseline tool for measurement, and because most teachers refuse to be tested for whatever excuse (most of them just BS smokescreens to avoid being embarrassed), we now have an open market for any idiot to step up and show a few clips on Youtube and declare himself a master. What's more scary is that there is a salivating market out there of willing believers who will max out their credit cards for the pleasure of buying into yet another fantasy.

 

It's because of this that I have all but renounced my traditional ties and refuse to either learn or teach anything about Fa Jin beyond simply human mechanics. I have stripped my Taiji back to its barest essentials and am now mixing that with other styles because I will never allow myself to be caught in the trap of thinking that I can perform these "minor miracles" of Fa Jin.

 

And yes I guess I am angry, furious actually, at this bunch of chaps who gather round slapping each other on the ass, telling each other how damn wonderful each other are without realizing the dishonor and shame they are actually causing to both themselves and the internal arts.

 

What alot of these chaps don't realize is that I am part of the new generation of practitioners that are coming through. We aren't as bound to the Master/Student structure as they are. We question things and we want proof before committing time, effort and money a line of study. And we have the internet at our finger tips where we can gather and cross-compare info faster than ever.

 

Taiji and the deep philosophy behind it has so many incredible gifts to offer the world. But it currently is shooting itself in the foot and making itself distasteful because of the proliferation of these frauds and charlatans.

 

If I could get a bunch of these "elders" to get involved in the sort of research I am suggesting we could develop a foundation of credible research that would go lightyears to reestablish credibility for the internal arts. Because at the moment we are just seen as a carnivale of delusional clowns.

 

[on the path]

The "problem" I have with fa jin demonstrations is that there is so much BS out there. We have dozens of wannabe's performing demonstrations that deserve Oscars, and as soon as anyone challenges these claims they are censured and ridiculed for asking the obvious (as I have discovered ).

 

In my FB discussions one person did actually get my point:

 

"I, personally, find it exciting that these skills are being brought out into the light of appreciation. This will clear the air of fakers, innocent misunderstanding, useless practices, and Tie-Chee. Also, this will allow us to appreciate the incredible science of the internal arts. I can't even imagine how much skill, time, and physical genius has gone into creating this system! It deserves appreciation by a wider audience than the lucky indoor few."

 

In the wider martial arts world we are being laughed at all over the world. Taiji is just a big JOKE and it is all because we have these frauds standing up trying to say that what they have is the true Taiji.

 

But as I pointedly asked ... where's the proof?

 

And just me feeling a "Master's" touch is not enough. I am also a professional Magician and Mentalist, and it is frighteningly easy for people to fool themselves into believing in lie.

 

Because there is a universal absence of scientific proof which can be used as a baseline tool for measurement, and because most teachers refuse to be tested for whatever excuse (most of them just BS smokescreens to avoid being embarrassed), we now have an open market for any idiot to step up and show a few clips on Youtube and declare himself a master. What's more scary is that there is a salivating market out there of willing believers who will max out their credit cards for the pleasure of buying into yet another fantasy.

 

It's because of this that I have all but renounced my traditional ties and refuse to either learn or teach anything about Fa Jin beyond simply human mechanics. I have stripped my Taiji back to its barest essentials and am now mixing that with other styles because I will never allow myself to be caught in the trap of thinking that I can perform these "minor miracles" of Fa Jin.

 

And yes I guess I am angry, furious actually, at this bunch of chaps who gather round slapping each other on the ass, telling each other how damn wonderful each other are without realizing the dishonor and shame they are actually causing to both themselves and the internal arts.

 

What alot of these chaps don't realize is that I am part of the new generation of practitioners that are coming through. We aren't as bound to the Master/Student structure as they are. We question things and we want proof before committing time, effort and money a line of study. And we have the internet at our finger tips where we can gather and cross-compare info faster than ever.

 

Taiji and the deep philosophy behind it has so many incredible gifts to offer the world. But it currently is shooting itself in the foot and making itself distasteful because of the proliferation of these frauds and charlatans.

 

If I could get a bunch of these "elders" to get involved in the sort of research I am suggesting we could develop a foundation of credible research that would go lightyears to reestablish credibility for the internal arts. Because at the moment we are just seen as a carnivale of delusional clowns.

 

 

 

Hi Stig,

 

I'm sorry to say the way Tai Chi Quan is taught today, you will never develop the real 'fa jin'. (I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me!). Tai Chi is a good art but is loosing its martial and real internal training to 'moving meditation'. Developing real 'fa jin' requires the stimulation of 'qi' one can't develop such a powerful qi by being floppy and relaxed all the time. There are special 'fa gong' exercises which one has to practice for many years and be celibate!!! I have also seen many videos and celebrated masters do the fa jin and they are all fakes. The real fa jin does not need the practitioner to move or extend the qi out of the hands. To accomplish real fa jin, I think the practitioner is on the way to becoming an Immortal!! I don't think there are many out there! This is my humble experience.

[YMWong]

I'm going to respectfully disagree on this point. If you know how to apply fa jin, it can be useful in close quarters fighting.

 

If you have no guts, in "close quarter fighting", you will be too busy filling up your underpants to think about your flashy 'fajin'

 

YM

Edited August 5, 2011 by YMWong

[Taomeow]

Is that invitation open to anyone?

 

Anyone serious about taiji, yes.

 

As for studies, have you seen this one guys?

 

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related