Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[goldisheavy]

Just got time to add this also. Back to my original post, it is only common sense, if you get hit by an electrical current it will hurt, burn and possibly kill you. The amount of volts one needs to issue energy sufficient to move the average human being is a great deal!!. To posses this amount of energy all the time and be able to summon it at will means that the body must be changed over many, many years, so that it can withstand that amount of voltage passing through it. It 300 volts will kill and move a man so it will kill the person who posses it!!!

 

Right. Of course the idea here is that by the time you get from storing 1 volt to 300 volt, you'll be a different person. That different person will not die from 300 volt because there was a period of adaptation and accommodation.

 

The whole idea of accumulating energy is both crazy and limiting. Don't store anything in yourself. Be empty. The universe has all the energy you'll ever need. Shoving it into your own stomach is greed, egomania and delusion. Instead make yourself a worthy conduit.

[gendao]

Personal note: I am more and more convinced that whatever anyone learns is always less than the full potential since something is always held back. I see too many examples of this which is not worth the time to say now.

Well, I think there may be a combination here..

 

Like, it is well-known that there have long been both outdoor and indoor teachings (which is true in any group in any culture, to be frank). So yes, upper-level info will be withheld at the lower levels of any subject (for a variety of reasons) - just like in math or physics in school.

 

And I suspect that the more spiritually-adept (and less concerned with money) a master becomes, he may also often become more like a fair lady who only opens herself up (emotionally & sexually) selectively to genuine, personal connections (see yuanfen, ming, jodo, etc) - rather than a cheap whore who does just anyone for the right price. Of course, this leaves many in the commodified First World frustrated with blue balls because they feel they can simply put a price tag on everything.. What, 5 dolla...no sucky, sucky??? Money can't buy everything, wtf??!

 

The other problem is that subtle internal techniques are just inherently hard to teach. Especially when there is also a language barrier and often unconscious competence that is hard to scientifically dissect and elucidate.

 

And even then, in this 3-part series, Michael Phillips does a great job of openly explaining all sorts of closed-door "secrets" - and downplays them as so easy to grasp that he has little old ladies in his Taijiquan class who can do them! Yet, is that even really true? If so, then where are all the vids by his students who have easily mastered all these "simple secrets?"

 

Judging from the participants in this workshop video here, they are so ridiculously incompetent even after clear instruction that I find his downplaying hard to believe.. These people are clearly still not just simply getting it after some concise explanation..

 

Well at the beginning of the first vid, he states that the ability to sink qi to your dantian is one of the keys. Ok...but how many people can really even do that alone??? Well, Michael appears to be a Yang stylist and a certified Healing Tao (qigong) Instructor - so obviously he took some special outside effort to develop that skill.

 

Which goes back to my belief that fajin is really based upon raw neigong ability - and someone who is adept in that should be able to perform it with maybe just a few pointers. Well, maybe we can get Rainbow_Vein, who ostensibly has activated her MCO to give Taijiquan a shot and see how well she fares to test this theory?

Edited August 6, 2011 by vortex

[on the path]

Right. Of course the idea here is that by the time you get from storing 1 volt to 300 volt, you'll be a different person. That different person will not die from 300 volt because there was a period of adaptation and accommodation.

 

The whole idea of accumulating energy is both crazy and limiting. Don't store anything in yourself. Be empty. The universe has all the energy you'll ever need. Shoving it into your own stomach is greed, egomania and delusion. Instead make yourself a worthy conduit.

 

Of course, but I don't agree, only being a conduit is a very dangerous thing to do indeed do not attempt this very often. Greed, egomania and delusion come from human perceptions and are not part of the essential Dao. To posses such power does require one to become humble and to only use it when necessary. Like all things (and now we take the path of the DDJ thread), positions of power can very easily result in misuse and corruption. I don't believe it is limiting. I do believe that ordinary strength is limiting but cultivating internal power has no limit. I don't believe it would be shoved into one's stomach either!! I think you've got the wrong idea there.

[goldisheavy]

Of course, but I don't agree, only being a conduit is a very dangerous thing to do indeed do not attempt this very often. Greed, egomania and delusion come from human perceptions and are not part of the essential Dao. To posses such power does require one to become humble and to only use it when necessary. Like all things (and now we take the path of the DDJ thread), positions of power can very easily result in misuse and corruption. I don't believe it is limiting. I do believe that ordinary strength is limiting but cultivating internal power has no limit. I don't believe it would be shoved into one's stomach either!! I think you've got the wrong idea there.

 

Why is it so dangerous to just be a conduit? The body is not the basis of power anyway, right? If you rely on ordinary strength, you put faith in the body. If you store subtle energies in the vicinity of the body, again you still put faith in the body, but this time it's a subtler version of the body. What if your energy is not in the body at all? Can I store my energy in the Sun or the Moon? Why not space? Why do I have to keep it in my body? What if the entire world appearance is my body and what if it's already as full of energy as it will ever be? What is the meaning of trying to pay attention to the stomach area if that's the case?

 

It seems to me if we protect our bodies too much, we lose something important somewhere else. It's like if you defend the east side of your castle, the west side is exposed. The body is like one side of your being. I'm not going to say it's not important, but at the same time, I don't understand how people think the power can come from it or reside in it.

Edited August 6, 2011 by goldisheavy

[on the path]

Why is it so dangerous to just be a conduit? The body is not the basis of power anyway, right? If you rely on ordinary strength, you put faith in the body. If you store subtle energies in the vicinity of the body, again you still put faith in the body, but this time it's a subtler version of the body. What if your energy is not in the body at all? Can I store my energy in the Sun or the Moon? Why not space? Why do I have to keep it in my body? What if the entire world appearance is my body and what if it's already as full of energy as it will ever be? What is the meaning of trying to pay attention to the stomach area if that's the case?

 

It seems to me if we protect our bodies too much, we lose something important somewhere else. It's like if you defend the east side of your castle, the west side is exposed. The body is like one side of your being. I'm not going to say it's not important, but at the same time, I don't understand how people think the power can come from it or reside in it.

 

Hi Goldisheavy, this is my perspective.

 

If we start off on the basis of TCM and Qi Gong etc. then we understand as much as it is possible that all matter is formed from the elements of the earth and from the universe. It is given life by vital energy. this energy comes from all different places, from the air we breath the food we eat etc etc. I believe that when things die that released energy melts back into the surrounding atmosphere. It remains as 'charged particles'. Some would even say this was the soul. If there are millions of 'souls' floating around the atmosphere, and you are just a conduit for this energy then you are opening yourself up to all manner of energies that you might not want to if you knew what they were. A great deal of harm can come of this I have experienced this myself. One is almost bordering on mediumship without any protection. The body is full of power, without it, it wouldn't be alive! I don't believe you can store your power anywhere else, only Lord voldermot could!!!! The stomach is not important it is located under the left ribs, it is the area below the naval that is important; the evolutionary battery. I'm not sure whether others would agree with what I've written here, but its what I understand in my limited knowledge.

[zerostao]

anyways, i am never so impressed by some tai chi player who sends another tai chi player stumbling/flying/crashing off to a great distance.

you guys who push hands know how this works. you catch the other guy off balance or not rooted and there he goes if you act at the right moment.

i would call this type of thing a hard jin. there is also what i would call a soft jin. it is like the tip of a whip, very focused and penetrating. it can cause bad damage. when you hit the other guy with this soft jin, he doesnt go flying backwards, he hardly moves at all, maybe no one even noticed that he moved at all.

i dont see how this type of thing could safely be tested.

[dawei]

The other problem is that subtle internal techniques are just inherently hard to teach. Especially when there is also a language barrier and often unconscious competence that is hard to scientifically dissect and elucidate.

I agree to a degree; it's harder to teach to westerners since we are to mechanical in our thinking and movements and want instant gratification (sorry about that 'we' in my pocket).

 

Thanks for links, I want to look later at the youtube stuff. I see MP was simply certified to train; so I don't think he really is a healer himself. I suspect he can teach Qigong movements.

 

Which goes back to my belief that fajin is really based upon raw neigong ability - and someone who is adept in that should be able to perform it with maybe just a few pointers.

I probably disagree with this since I see it as more a Shengong issue. But I understand your point.

[goldisheavy]

Hi Goldisheavy, this is my perspective.

 

If we start off on the basis of TCM and Qi Gong etc. then we understand as much as it is possible that all matter is formed from the elements of the earth and from the universe. It is given life by vital energy. this energy comes from all different places, from the air we breath the food we eat etc etc. I believe that when things die that released energy melts back into the surrounding atmosphere. It remains as 'charged particles'. Some would even say this was the soul. If there are millions of 'souls' floating around the atmosphere, and you are just a conduit for this energy then you are opening yourself up to all manner of energies that you might not want to if you knew what they were. A great deal of harm can come of this I have experienced this myself. One is almost bordering on mediumship without any protection. The body is full of power, without it, it wouldn't be alive! I don't believe you can store your power anywhere else, only Lord voldermot could!!!! The stomach is not important it is located under the left ribs, it is the area below the naval that is important; the evolutionary battery. I'm not sure whether others would agree with what I've written here, but its what I understand in my limited knowledge.

 

I see what you mean. The danger is that those other things are contrary to human identity from your point of view. However, I am not a 100% human. I just like humans but I am also other things. The human body is just one aspect of my body. My real body is the endless cycle. The human body is dead, like a brick or like a shadow. It's something else that is alive. I call it mind. The mind is neither harmed nor improved by anything and it has endless energy in it, the kind of energy that doesn't follow the rules of physics, so it's not a physical energy. It's a mind energy that follows the rules of dreaming, which are different rules. Inside the dream we can enjoy a game of learning and forgetting, improving and worsening conditions and so on. If you think of my body as a wheel, then most of my body is turning. The closer you get to the center the less it is turning. And at the very center it is not turning at all. It is still.

 

There is nothing "out there" that is scary unless you really want to be exclusively human. Being 100% exclusively human is boring and limiting. I've been a demon and a dragon before and it's not so bad at all. There is nothing to fear.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I had a strange energetic experience during taichi once. While doing left grasp bird's tail energy suddenly rose from my dantien up the front of my chest, down my arms and out my two middle fingers. I have no idea what triggered it, and was never able to reproduce it. It felt somewhat like a jolt of electricity, but more subtle. Believe me or not, I really don't care. I've also had many other energetic experiences which convinced me that there is more to us than western materialistic science will admit.

 

Have you never experienced anything "out of the ordinary" in terms of energetics Stigweird?

[Oolong Rabbit]

 

I can appreciate your heritage and importance to this art. On the other hand, I am fully convinced that the chinese really never want to disclose the whole truth. Family teachings and secrets; masters noding their head whether it's right or wrong; expectations that 20 years is minimum for a beginning to go to the next level

 

In the Qing Dynasty (Manchu rule) the court requested to be taught Taiji. In characteristic chinese fashion the chinese were quick to satisfy... and so taught them Taiji... lots of waving hands and steps

 

All the 'outer aspects' were taught but not the 'inner aspects'. After that there [if one knows the chinese] a silent decision to keep this even more remotely secret from the world of barbarians

 

So... who is share in the blame for a lack of western understanding

 

---

 

Personal note: I am more and more convinced that whatever anyone learns is always less than the full potential since something is always held back. I see too many examples of this which is not worth the time to say now.

 

I totally agree. The coolest thing I heard was one of my qigong teachers state at the beginning of a retreat "Nothing is held back from westerners in this lineage. The system I teach here is identical to what I teach in Asia". The very fact that she felt the need to state it, implies that this must be common practice. I think this is a very fair question a western student can ask a potential teacher too. If you are willing to put the time in and have the proper attitude, it's not fair to hold knowledge back because of the color of your skin.

[zerostao]

I had a strange energetic experience during taichi once. While doing left grasp bird's tail energy suddenly rose from my dantien up the front of my chest, down my arms and out my two middle fingers. I have no idea what triggered it, and was never able to reproduce it. It felt somewhat like a jolt of electricity, but more subtle. Believe me or not, I really don't care. I've also had many other energetic experiences which convinced me that there is more to us than western materialistic science will admit.

 

Have you never experienced anything "out of the ordinary" in terms of energetics Stigweird?

may i ask which style of tai chi you play?

i know in the yang style there are specific sequences of moves for initiating the small circle of heaven and grand circulation. i had been hoping to look at this in Stig's taichi alchemy thread but it just kinda fizzled out. very disapointing for me.

[Stigweard]

I had a strange energetic experience during taichi once. While doing left grasp bird's tail energy suddenly rose from my dantien up the front of my chest, down my arms and out my two middle fingers. I have no idea what triggered it, and was never able to reproduce it. It felt somewhat like a jolt of electricity, but more subtle. Believe me or not, I really don't care. I've also had many other energetic experiences which convinced me that there is more to us than western materialistic science will admit.

 

Have you never experienced anything "out of the ordinary" in terms of energetics Stigweird?

Too numerous to talk about in full. Just keep regulating body, breath and mind and those "experiences" will look after themselves in the right order.

 

[Stigweard]

Stigweard...

I have the impression that you are a Tai Chi instructor, am I correct....???

 

Personally, I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but to be experienced myself.

Yup. Why do you ask??

 

[Stigweard]

Just posting these up for comparison:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

 

[Stigweard]

And another way of looking at it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY&feature=related

 

[Stigweard]

The only clip on the net that I could find for full contact Taiji:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWWYliy3PgQ

[on the path]

Hi Stig,

 

I don't think these are particularly extraordinary. The first two guys is what I think one should expect from any half descent teacher. Set pattern sparring although is good for practice and technique but is boring! Once you've seen one you've seen them all. I once saw a clip of an old Chinese guy demonstrate snake art his yang fa jin was very powerful in terms of strikes. The worst thing about padded up combat is exactly that. As soon as gloves are on etc. technique tends to go out the window and it melts down to becomeing more like Thai boxing.

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig,

 

I don't think these are particularly extraordinary. The first two guys is what I think one should expect from any half descent teacher. Set pattern sparring although is good for practice and technique but is boring! Once you've seen one you've seen them all. I once saw a clip of an old Chinese guy demonstrate snake art his yang fa jin was very powerful in terms of strikes. The worst thing about padded up combat is exactly that. As soon as gloves are on etc. technique tends to go out the window and it melts down to becomeing more like Thai boxing.

I don't think they are very particularly extraordinary either.

 

[Oolong Rabbit]

may i ask which style of tai chi you play?

i know in the yang style there are specific sequences of moves for initiating the small circle of heaven and grand circulation. i had been hoping to look at this in Stig's taichi alchemy thread but it just kinda fizzled out. very disapointing for me.

 

Hi Zerostao,

 

I practice Master Moy's taoist taichi. It's based on Yang, but more qigong-ified than martial. FWIW, my instructor has been practicing for 25 years and claims the grand circulation happens automatically when she does the form. Could you elaborate on which sequences do what? Mybe we can take it to the alchemy thread.

[ChiDragon]

And another way of looking at it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY&feature=related

 

 

Now this is Tai Ji Gong, the highest level of Tai Ji that one would like to be achieved. A real Tai Ji master does not need to jump and move around as much. Anyone has to move so much, jumping up and down, fall with the opponent and does lots of kicking, that was the combination of American boxing and wresting. It may not be called Tai Ji.

[zerostao]

Hi Zerostao,

 

I practice Master Moy's taoist taichi. It's based on Yang, but more qigong-ified than martial. FWIW, my instructor has been practicing for 25 years and claims the grand circulation happens automatically when she does the form. Could you elaborate on which sequences do what? Mybe we can take it to the alchemy thread.

in the alchemy thread i did give the sequence of moves for the smaller circulation, that would be the place to start anyways. as long as you are inhaling or exhaling in coordination with what the movement needs you should be fine. i personally like the qigongified taichi. once one gets grand circulation it becomes quite effective martially.

but i also feel the bio-mechanics of tai chi is a good in close fighting style.

also imo the xingyiquan is a really good in close fighting style. having said that, i am a baguazhang player sorry guys if i went off topic. but fa jin exists also in the xingyiquan and baguazhang.

[steve]

I don't think they are very particularly extraordinary either.

 

I'll agree with you there. The fights on that clip where the opponents are wearing blue and yellow took place at the International Kuo Shu Championship Tournament in Hunt Valley, MD. I'm actually the director of Lei Tai fighting at that tournament. We have a few Taijiquan contestants from time to time and they are rarely competitive fighters. But I do give them a lot of credit for having the guts to get up on that Lei Tai. It's amateur level competition but most of the fighters are very well trained and in excellent condition. The guys and gals who are not in top shape don't last long.

[steve]

Now this is Tai Ji Gong, the highest level of Tai Ji that one would like to be achieved. A real Tai Ji master does not need to jump and move around as much. Anyone has to move so much, jumping up and down, fall with the opponent and does lots of kicking, that was the combination of American boxing and wresting. It may not be called Tai Ji.

I don't think you can tell that much about a persons fighting skill and fa jin skill when they are using one of their students for demonstration purposes. I'd like to see him in a cage match or on the Lei Tai. He looks knowledgable and skillful but he's not being tested.

[ChiDragon]

Yup. Why do you ask??

 

 

I was just curious about the way you were talking about Fa Jin for being a Tai Chi practitioner.

[ChiDragon]

I don't think you can tell that much about a persons fighting skill and fa jin skill when they are using one of their students for demonstration purposes. I'd like to see him in a cage match or on the Lei Tai. He looks knowledgable and skillful but he's not being tested.

 

One does not has to be in contact with anyone to see how good the person is. One can tell by the way he practice to determine what level he is in. If one practice long enough, one can tell the level of the others. The practitioner in the first video, he was using lots of Jin in his moves. I know he is not a novice but a real Tai Ji master. I don't want to mess with him.