mYTHmAKER Posted August 9, 2011 Is this happening for Taiji? No. And there is a reason for it. So there is no need to demand proofs. Accept that taiji has nothing and move along. Taiji is yoga for health. It's not a combat art. You can probably (99.9% chance) walk up to Michael Phillips and knock all his teeth out in a few quick punches to his face. Taiji people like to be rooted. Well, imagine them getting kicked viciously by a kickboxer whose legs have been kicking tires and wooden dummies for years? Are they going to maintain root? No, they'll get their legs broken and scream in pain because they've never practiced meeting this kind of thing. They only practice with soft pudgy cuddly cooperating students who probably can't even press a kettlebell or do more than 20 pushups in a row and can't do one pullup and they go around talking about li being inferior. I went to a taiji class and the instructor was showing me some form and was telling me how his qi was moving things out of the way, etc... well I held my arm out strongly and guess what? He almost crapped in his pants. He couldn't move my arm at all. And I am not even a strong man at all. I'm just not a metrosexual they've come to expect. I just held my arm and he couldn't move neither my arm nor me and he had to tell me to relax and to start cooperating to get his show back on the road. That's my personal experience. Since then I don't bother with Taiji. You have no idea what you are talking about. Not your fault - you obviously saw the wrong instructor. Too bad you didn't go see my teacher. If you ever make it to NYC PM me and I will introduce you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 What's interesting is that I've never seen Systema people do push hands. They just spar, spar, spar. I don't think they have forms either. What they have are abstract principles which they teach through verbal explanations and then lots of sparring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Is this happening for Taiji? No. And there is a reason for it. So there is no need to demand proofs. Accept that taiji has nothing and move along. Taiji is yoga for health. It's not a combat art. You can probably (99.9% chance) walk up to Michael Phillips and knock all his teeth out in a few quick punches to his face. Taiji people like to be rooted. Well, imagine them getting kicked viciously by a kickboxer whose legs have been kicking tires and wooden dummies for years? Are they going to maintain root? No, they'll get their legs broken and scream in pain because they've never practiced meeting this kind of thing. They only practice with soft pudgy cuddly cooperating students who probably can't even press a kettlebell or do more than 20 pushups in a row and can't do one pullup and they go around talking about li being inferior. I went to a taiji class and the instructor was showing me some form and was telling me how his qi was moving things out of the way, etc... well I held my arm out strongly and guess what? He almost crapped in his pants. He couldn't move my arm at all. And I am not even a strong man at all. I'm just not a metrosexual they've come to expect. I just held my arm and he couldn't move neither my arm nor me and he had to tell me to relax and to start cooperating to get his show back on the road. That's my personal experience. Since then I don't bother with Taiji. Hahaha! I simply LOVE that comment, what you said is so straight-forward! But it all depends on the question if someone has internal power (Jing) or not. And if, how much and how dense is his jing. At a certain point of development, you will be able to transfer your Jing through the air to affect people without touching. I don't think that Michael Phillips has already developed distance power, but Waysun Liao has. Stig, why not change plans and meet Waysun Liao, one of the highest Taoist masters in the world, in Chicago and test not only his Jing, but his distance power...? I'm damn sure that that experience would change your worldview forever! Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
templetao Posted August 9, 2011 Yes taichi is like yoga being thats its a valid spiritual path. The taichi body, Jing body, and Golden bell is what makes taichi very unique. The body and attainment of a real taichi master is very special. Yoga taichi Buddhism All have different and similar attainments. A taichi master of a high attainment is nothing to overlook. Ill say this masters who go around doing demonstrations are really low level. Its almost like there impressed and shocked by what they can do and they go around showing everybody the little bit of chi they do have. I just chuckle to myself and consider them geeks and continue on my path. I mean just think about it what real spiritual master of legends goes around just performing for entertainment? They usually go around healing people, saving people, teaching, and enlightening where they can. A real master doesnt need showboating attention like that. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
templetao Posted August 9, 2011 But also a way has to be made possible so there is a chance that the master will make it possible for you to get near him. Thus demonstrations but to even to do that and to be a taichi master you must have a spiritual calling to do so. Some "masters" teach with no spiritual calling to do so. Maybe they do it because it is the spirit of the master they want to emulate in themselves. When a real master is deciding to teach or not when he considers not teaching he feels an indescribable hurt and loss. If masters want attention for their skills they should save someone's life. How can you be at true peace when the world you live in screams in pain. The taoist arts is a gift to man because man was sick, suffering, and lost their way. if this wasnt the case then man would not need taoist arts. Masters demonstrating skills for entertainment have lost their way to say the least. A masters job is to remove the blockages that prevent his student from ascending. In taichi to listen, follow and project is to teach you about life and the flow of the tao. To project out is very similar to exhaling. When you project out you change the environment. You are choosing to have a more active role in the tao. You project out so you can harmonize better with the flow of all that is. Like if you push me and i flow neutralize and project back into you i did so so i can maintain my center and remove the blockage that was causing that. So if i were to give a lesson in distance power I would do it like a master and i would demonstrate the deeper meaning of projecting. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 So if i were to give a lesson in distance power I would do it like a master and i would demonstrate the deeper meaning of projecting. Wow, I knew that you developed Jing, but are you saying that you already developed distance power? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
templetao Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) No not the real attainment of Kong Jing. That takes very long time to be able to do. Real kong jing is to successfully transfer your vibration over a distance more than 2 feet with the same power and accuracy as if you were touching them. People who can not do that have no right to claim kong jing. No one asks what the spiritual meaning of fa jing and distance power is. Edited August 9, 2011 by templetao 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 No not the real attainment of Kong Jing. That takes very long time to be able to do. Real kong jing is to successfully transfer your vibration over a distance more than 2 feet with the same power and accuracy as if you were touching them. People who can not do that have no right to claim kong jing. Sounds to me that you can already can push your vibration beyond the limits of your body through space which is already very impressive. No one asks what the spiritual meaning of fa jing and distance power is. What is it's spiritual meaning? Maybe the expansion of your shen into Tao and the communication with the Tao around you? The exchange of energy and information with the Tao? The first steps for preparation of merging with the Tao in later stages? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) No one asks what the spiritual meaning of fa jing and distance power is. That's a good point. I think a huge part of the problem is that some people are looking for most effective ways to beat up other people, and other people are looking for wisdom and enlightenment, and the subsection of people who belong in both camps I think is a very tiny one. I think from a pragmatic point of view if you want to become skilled at physically beating and subduing opponents you're better off studying arts like: boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, judo, jiu-jitsu, sanshou, sambo and perhaps systema (if you spar every day for 10 years against non-cooperating opponents, otherwise systema is useless, imo). Boxing and kickboxing/muay thai, judo, jiu-jitsu deliver proven results. While you are at it, if you are serious, I suggest buying a gun and spending time at the gun range as well. And taking a knife defense/offense class is probably a good idea as well. This pragmatic bunch of people is rightly going to be incredulous when confront with paranormal distance power projections. By its very definition paranormal is not normal. We call something paranormal because it defies expectations. Personally I think paranormal powers are real, but at the same time I think everyone who questions these powers is very smart, because it's better to have a closed mind that hasn't been swindled than to have an open mind that's been taken advantage of. Of course the best case scenario is an open mind that cannot be swindled, but that's not easy to achieve. I think it's important to realize that paranormal abilities generally do not come from sparring or from training how to beat people in sports or in a real struggle. If paranormal is what you're after, neither yoga nor taichi is an ideal practice. By yoga I mean all the yoga studios around the country. I don't mean Yoga Sutras of Patanjali which aren't discussed in more or less any yoga studio. Most yoga is about destressing and health, and those are very good and valid purposes in their own right. I think most taichi helps with destressing and health as well, which is completely valid if it's advertised as such. But just like in yoga there is Patanjali who is nothing like what most yoga studios teach, I am sure in taichi there is a transcendent and barely reachable equivalent who is nothing like what most taichi studios teach. Paranormal abilities can be used in combat, but as the name implies, it's not normal. So if you want to win fights, paranormal is really a dumb way to go. But if paranormal itself is your goal, I think you should think twice about taichi or yoga. Try chaos magic, philosophy, meditation, going on retreat, things like that, and be ready for insanity and death. Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
templetao Posted August 9, 2011 Sounds to me that you can already can push your vibration beyond the limits of your body through space which is already very impressive. What is it's spiritual meaning? Maybe the expansion of your shen into Tao and the communication with the Tao around you? The exchange of energy and information with the Tao? The first steps for preparation of merging with the Tao in later stages? Close but not quite it. Jing is the internal power of the body. Jing is very intent operated as far as fa jing goes. Over time your jing will be more spiritual and you wont have to use your intent to circulate it because it will respond to your spiritual need automatically. Distance power represents the level that your internal power has reached a spiritual level and can be extended past your physical body. Thus becoming spiritual power. Thus jing to shen. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
templetao Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Understand that at this point your taichi is very internal. To lose your center is to comprise your spiritual integrity. Taichi teaches you to keep your center thus maintain your spiritual integrity and this leads to virtue. -Understand. Edited August 9, 2011 by templetao 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 Close but not quite it. Jing is the internal power of the body. Jing is very intent operated as far as fa jing goes. Over time your jing will be more spiritual and you wont have to use your intent to circulate it because it will respond to your spiritual need automatically. Distance power represents the level that your internal power has reached a spiritual level and can be extended past your physical body. Thus becoming spiritual power. Thus jing to shen. Very interesting! If I understand you right, when jing condenses more and more to shen, then it also converges more and more to Tao...so it acts more and more according to the wiseness or will of the Tao...and finally BECOMES a true part of the Tao? Is that the point when the power of the Tao flows into and through you? Are you then after that point even unable to let your energy act AGAINST the will of the Tao? I guess a true Tao Master has then to surrender his will to the will of the Tao to reach this state and becomes a saint then... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve Posted August 9, 2011 You have no idea what you are talking about. Not your fault - you obviously saw the wrong instructor. Too bad you didn't go see my teacher. If you ever make it to NYC PM me and I will introduce you. +1 - same offer stands if you're ever in Baltimore. I'm a born skeptic and cynic and my teacher and his son are the real deal (as are some of our senior students and instructors) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Very interesting! If I understand you right, when jing condenses more and more to shen, then it also converges more and more to Tao...so it acts more and more I've never heard of this formulation. Usually jing is said to be rarefied to become qi, which is then rarefied to become shen. And the opposite is shen condensing to become qi, then qi condensing to become jing. At no point anything "reaches" Tao, because Tao is simply the way of all things, and jing, qi, and shen are always "in" Tao, and so are all their transformations. Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) +1 - same offer stands if you're ever in Baltimore. I'm a born skeptic and cynic and my teacher and his son are the real deal (as are some of our senior students and instructors) I believe you Steve and Myth. As I said, I don't doubt paranormal power exists. But at the same time I sympathize with people who want to learn how to pragmatically beat people up. Steve and Myth, you guys are lucky and have access to something most people do not. Most people have access to a boxing club. Please be honest and tell me: if someone asked you "How can I learn to beat people up in the most effective way possible?" Would you respond "taichi?" You probably wouldn't, right? In terms of pragmatic utility let's be generous and say there are 1000 real taichi people in the world who have strange powers that can actually be used in real combat. Then let's say there are 1 million MMA people. So just because those 1000 people exist and they are amazing, would you pragmatically recommend that approach? Wouldn't you recommend something that is known to work for millions of people worldwide without any weirdness? Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 9, 2011 Interesting indeed that your teacher would recommend Systema. That's officially the third recommendation from the Taiji world that I have heard of. It's why I am training now under Australia's main instructor Andrew Seyderhelm and am passing it on to my students. Also interestingly unfortunate that the clips you posted included footage of Vadim Starov. Apparently he only trained with Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev for a short while before trying to make a name for himself. The results were pretty disastrous: I did not mean to imply he recommends Systema; he only told me I could find footage similar to what he learned, if someone wants to see combat skills with energy. He's approach is usually that a person should pursue their interests and create something unique out of the whole of experience. I think he would leave it up to the person to decide if they wanted to find out more about Systema or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I've never heard of this formulation. Usually jing is rarefied to become qi, which is the rarefied to become shen. And the opposite is shen condensing to become qi, then qi condensing to become jing. At no point anything "reaches" Tao, because Tao is simply the way of all things, and jing, qi, and shen are always in Tao, and so are all their transformations. Coal becomes diamond by condensing... wood -> coal -> diamond Chi -> Jing -> Shen Internal Energy -> Internal Power -> Spirit Condensing "burns out" all impurities and refines your energy. Visit Waysun Liao in Chicago for verification...if you have the luck to live in the USA. Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Very interesting! If I understand you right, when jing condenses more and more to shen, then it also converges more and more to Tao...so it acts more and more according to the wiseness or will of the Tao...and finally BECOMES a true part of the Tao? Is that the point when the power of the Tao flows into and through you? Are you then after that point even unable to let your energy act AGAINST the will of the Tao? I guess a true Tao Master has then to surrender his will to the will of the Tao to reach this state and becomes a saint then... BTW, I guess if you want to have that prenatal feeling again, that you had in your mother's womb: absolute trust and security, knowing that you always are cared for and always nurtured by a surrounding good and allmighty force for all eternity...then you have to reach that state! That's the ultimate feeling only a Taoist Master can feel and enjoy (...and all unborns of course! ) BTW, that's the true meaning of the term "paradise lost" and that's the real meaning of "the way of return"...returning into the womb of the Tao! THAT's the ultimate (spiritual) ambition every human being has in it's deepest subconscious! (...and, of course, you will re-connect to Tao by your navel/tantien! ) Edited August 9, 2011 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Coal becomes diamond by condensing... wood -> coal -> diamond Chi -> Jing -> Shen Coal is denser and harder than wood. Diamond is even denser and even harder than coal. Shen on the other hand is more like space. Some would say it's insubstantial. So shen is like space. Qi is very subtle and can only be felt privately in the private space, and jing is something that's dense enough to become public and can be felt by people other than the originator. Here's what I found after a quick search: In Neidan "internal alchemy" practice (Despeux 2008:563), transmuting the Three Treasures is expressed through the phrases lianjing huaqi 鍊精化氣 "refining essence into breath", lianqi huashen 鍊氣化神 "refining breath into spirit", and lianshen huanxu 鍊神還虛 "refining spirit and reverting to Emptiness". Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted August 9, 2011 You have no idea what you are talking about. Not your fault - you obviously saw the wrong instructor. Too bad you didn't go see my teacher. If you ever make it to NYC PM me and I will introduce you. Myth, have you ever seen your teacher take out a black-belted hard MA dude? I've seen mine do it with one finger, I think I've told the story here. Don't you just love a martial theorist? Coming to taiji from taekwondo, I at least have a personal frame of reference for what a "soft" art can do against a "hard" one. I used to be trained to break boards and shit -- we had an exam every three months, and you had to break one with a punch, one with a kick, a different kind every time. Then you were given the broken boards as a souvenir, I had a collection stacked up in my garage, I was so proud of myself. To think what Snake Creeping in the Grass alone can do with all those high kicks... To see what the body of bricks and cement blocks experiences when meeting the body of flexible steel wrapped in cotton and silk... ...delicious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted August 9, 2011 I believe you Steve and Myth. As I said, I don't doubt paranormal power exists. But at the same time I sympathize with people who want to learn how to pragmatically beat people up. Steve and Myth, you guys are lucky and have access to something most people do not. Most people have access to a boxing club. Please be honest and tell me: if someone asked you "How can I learn to beat people up in the most effective way possible?" Would you respond "taichi?" You probably wouldn't, right? In terms of pragmatic utility let's be generous and say there are 1000 real taichi people in the world who have strange powers that can actually be used in real combat. Then let's say there are 1 million MMA people. So just because those 1000 people exist and they are amazing, would you pragmatically recommend that approach? Wouldn't you recommend something that is known to work for millions of people worldwide without any weirdness? It's not paranormal power. It's learning and practice. I don't play taijiqun to learn to beat people up. If that is the attitude of the student, my teacher won't teach him/her. The training is to avoid confrontation and fights. Not as widely publicized as Akido which you might relate to. It just takes longer and more patience to learn taijiquan well. So if you needed to beat someone up right away I would recommend trying to resolve in a peaceful manner, get a good pair of sneakers so you can run fast. What is the best martial art? Who cares. Find one that resonates with you and practice. Why focus on who can beat up who. Into the body out of the head 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted August 9, 2011 Myth, have you ever seen your teacher take out a black-belted hard MA dude? I've seen mine do it with one finger, I think I've told the story here. Don't you just love a martial theorist? Coming to taiji from taekwondo, I at least have a personal frame of reference for what a "soft" art can do against a "hard" one. I used to be trained to break boards and shit -- we had an exam every three months, and you had to break one with a punch, one with a kick, a different kind every time. Then you were given the broken boards as a souvenir, I had a collection stacked up in my garage, I was so proud of myself. To think what Snake Creeping in the Grass alone can do with all those high kicks... To see what the body of bricks and cement blocks experiences when meeting the body of flexible steel wrapped in cotton and silk... ...delicious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted August 9, 2011 It's not paranormal power. It's learning and practice. Paranormal just means something beyond the normal. So for example, it's not normal for human beings to dead lift 1000 lbs, so that ability can be called paranormal, even though people who get to that level do so with learning and practice. So when Sergei Bubka vaults over 6 meters, we can call that paranormal too. I really don't think paranormal is anything other than this. I don't play taijiqun to learn to beat people up. If that is the attitude of the student, my teacher won't teach him/her. The training is to avoid confrontation and fights. Not as widely publicized as Akido which you might relate to. This is good and bad. The intention is kind, but avoidance of confrontation produces the discussions you're now part of. It just takes longer and more patience to learn taijiquan well. So if you needed to beat someone up right away I would recommend trying to resolve in a peaceful manner, get a good pair of sneakers so you can run fast. What is the best martial art? Who cares. Find one that resonates with you and practice. Why focus on who can beat up who. Into the body out of the head I agree. At the same time people have a right to be skeptical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
minkus Posted August 9, 2011 Understand that at this point your taichi is very internal. To lose your center is to comprise your spiritual integrity. Taichi teaches you to keep your center thus maintain your spiritual integrity and this leads to virtue. -Understand. Elijah wich style of taijiquan do you pratice ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted August 9, 2011 Paranormal just means something beyond the normal. So for example, it's not normal for human beings to dead lift 1000 lbs, so that ability can be called paranormal, even though people who get to that level do so with learning and practice. So when Sergei Bubka vaults over 6 meters, we can call that paranormal too. I really don't think paranormal is anything other than this. I agree. At the same time people have a right to be skeptical. Another definition is not "understandable in terms of known scientific laws". Maybe more like a little old lady lifting a car to save a child. A one time occurrence no training involved. Anyway i guess i missed your idea of paranormal. That's the mind for you It's our nature to be skeptical and here we are in our heads again. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
