Example Protocol to test Fa Jin ability

[orb]

Hi Stig. I clearly didn't say "your inquiry was disrespectful". I said that declaring teachers fakes without so much as even meeting with them and spending some time with them is very disrespectful. I'll say it again. In my opinion, internal skill is not obvious from just viewing a video demo, so passing judgement on internal skill based on a video doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. At lower levels fajin may use more obvious force, but at higher levels it is not so obvious. I think you do understand what I am saying though because I think it is a straight forward enough concept.

 

 

To me internal skill is very obvious from the videos with John Chang. And I never met the guy but I've never had any doubt in my mind that he is real 100%.

The problem is he won't teach you.

 

By comparison the other guys from the videos they will teach you a lot of things and forever and they all look fake!

 

Now ain't that smth?

[The Way Is Virtue]

To me internal skill is very obvious from the videos with John Chang. And I never met the guy but I've never had any doubt in my mind that he is real 100%.

 

John Chang was not demonstrating hitting people or throwing people around in those videos. This is what we are talking about. I'm sure John Chang would have to really limit the force he delivered if he demonstrated using internal force to hit or push someone as well. Using internal force to strike someone tends to penetrate deep inside their body and can be very shocking and can potentially damage internal organs, from what I understand anyway. I believe this was also mentioned in the book about John Chang, that he advised students about the danger of hitting someone once they reached a certain level in their internal cultivation practice.

So, if you can't use strong internal force when hitting someone in a video demo, how can you tell what a teacher is really capable of just from watching a video on youtube? Maybe if someone is a high level internal arts master they may be able to tell, but I don't know if that is necessarily even the case. Anyway, I have said my piece on this so I won't belabor the issue.

[fiveelementtao]

Look at the last posted video and you will see what, for the moment, I am focusing on. Now would you call this Fa Jin or Fa Qi in your books?

I'm not sure what "books" you mean. I haven't nor would I write any books about this stuff. No. it is not Fa Qi at all. Fa Qi involves violent strikes. Looking at it, it would look no different than a slap or a punch. In the case of Fa Qi, the only person who knows the difference in terms of energy is the guy getting hit.

 

So if we brought it all back to me, I am wanting clarity on this whole issue of fajin i.e. the fajin that these chaps are carrying on with. On a purely selfish level I am wanting to decide if that sort of training is something I want to engage in, but if it truly is just all BS, and nothing has convinced me otherwise thus far, then I will just keep on my merry way with my current training.

 

Then don't waste your time. Save your money. First let me say that Fa Jin is no big deal. It is just tendon flexibility combined with proper structure and techinque. If you are a true Tai Ji player and you have been taught how to stretch the tendons and increase Qi through your form, you can reproduce what is on the video posted earlier. In fact you could learn to do it in one day. I think what you are trying to prove is this "empty force" nonsense, not fa Jing. The guy in the video is moving and would not pass your test. He is just moving very, very slightly. watch again, you will see. This other guy has a book and teaches seminars. You can practice fa jing all day on others. Why not go see him and tell us what you think? I would love to hear about his classes.

 

Fa Qi will look just like Ali's phantom punch and people are still debating that whole thing just from a Western boxing perspective. So forget about proving Fa Qi. Listen, Stig. You are smart guy, how can you not see that this the whole idea of "proving" this stuff is ludicrous.

 

IME, and IMO, You are at cross purposes with yourself here. If you want to see if this is something you want to learn then, go learn it and find out if you like it or not. Speaking from experience in learning this stuff and watching others try to do so, if one comes into this type of training with a "prove it to me attitude" they are operating from the left brain. at best they will experience it, but will not be able to replicate it. One must be able to tap into the right brain and have fun. You can't have fun if you are simultaneously trying to demand objective proof. That is an angry defense mechanism behavior that has it's place. But it won't help you learn. Try learning a musical instrument while being angry and "testing" the existence of music. As long as you are actively trying to to figure it out and "test" it with the left brain, you will probably not be able to replicate the technique. So as someone who has gone down this road before, I say, make up your mind: do you want to test it or do you want to learn it? If you think that you will be able to test it to your satisfaction and then turn around and learn it, you will have to accomplish a huge feat of mental gymnastics to switch mindsets. I have never seen anyone who thinks they can figure this stuff out be able to replicate it. You may be different. The best way to test it is to get hit. Then decide what you think.

 

On a less selfish level I certainly would like to see some clarity out in the Taiji world around this. People are getting ripped off and suckered in daily and the whole mess really does give this fine tradition the smell of last weeks underwear.

I am of the opinion that this is your real motive here. I can sense the anger. and it is understandable. I am in agreement with you that those who show this stuff off are mostly frauds and should be exposed. And if so, then go disprove it and take back Tai Ji for what it should be. You will be successful. Then you can go back to your training and promote Taiji as you like. As I said earlier, even if you are very respectful, IME, the anger you carry with you concerning the issue will weigh you down and you will not be able to replicate the technique. IME, On a physical level, the anger will get your energy trapped in your deltoid muscles and prevent you from releasing the Qi through the tendons from the earth and you will be forced to use your own physical muscle power instead. In terms of proof, I think that you are mistaken if you think that any "proof" one way or other will change anyone's opinions. Those that want to believe will do so regardless and those who don't want to believe never will do so no matter how much "proof" you bring.

 

So instead of all the ambiguousness and misinformation, I would just like to have some simple clarity that everyone can enjoy. And just me, or anyone for that matter, saying "Hey guys I felt it and it works" is simply not good enough.

Sorry, but IME, that is the best you are going to get. You will only be able to prove or disprove it for yourself. The nature of the energy involved requires this. Again, I am talking from experience here. The only sure thing is that you will disprove it if that is what you want. If it is real, IME, you will never be able to prove it.

 

Which brings me back to the question, can anyone please show this stuff in full contact combat or in a scientific environment? If you can't then this sort of fajin is at best just a pointless waste of time.

(please note that the followng response is only hypothetical I am in no way promoting violence) Yes. Hypothetically speaking only... One would need to pick a fight with someone who has this ability and is prepared to end your life. if one could find them one must also be prepared to also kill them. If one were trying to kill them, they wouldn't care about the camera. If their life and yours is not at risk, the camera is a factor that will alter your findings... Guaranteed! A real fight is the only true test. That is what this stuff was designed for, not for exhibition. IMO, any "controlled environment" is BS because there is no real threat and that includes demo matches, cage matches, etc.... The only real laboratory is a real fight where you are in a fight with someone determined to end your life. Anything else is meaningless. Are we talking martial sports or martial arts? Martial ARTS is about killing. Tai Ji was originally designed as a killing art. The health benefits were a side effect. I think you already know this.

 

Excuse my directness Mike, but could you pass the test in the OP with your skills?? If not, why not?

Thanks for the honesty. So, now we get to it. You are challenging me? There is the anger again. I haven't indicated that I am at all interested in proving this stuff. In fact I have stated that I want you to disprove it if that is your real motive which I feel it is. I believe the whole idea is a distraction. I have already said that even if hypothetically it does exist, it means nothing at all. I have already stated that I don't agree with the whole idea of showboating any kinds of abilities martial or otherwise. I have stated that I believe it to be counterproductive on a spiritual basis. You know this. Why would I want to prove anything? How does that benefit me? Assuming I had these abilities, I would be injuring my own spirit simply by trying to gain your approval. So, why do you want to provoke me into having to "prove" myself by stating whether or not I can do this? You have now made me your adversary and I like you. You are the one who needs to prove or disprove this not I. So, I decline to answer as is my right since I have no stake in this discussion one way or the other. Honestly is there any answer that I could give that you would respect? I wouldn't. I already stated that IME, any teacher who would allow themself to be forced into proving themself to satisfy another's idle curiosity is very insecure and should not be teaching. IME, if you find a teacher who has these abilities and is willing to allow you to force them into proving themselves, they are dangerous and destructive people and should be avoided...

 

 

 

Listen, Stig. I mean what I say. I am only sharing these suggestions because I have experience as one who has spent a lot of time learning in an environment where Fa Qi was taught. I am only sharing from my experience what will best help you if you truly want to learn it. I am not arguing for it one way or the other. I am not trying to promote it. I am suggesting that you decide one way or the other what you want. So you want to honestly seek this out to learn it? Or are you angry and skeptical and want to disprove it. Because IME, having trained in these kinds of environments for many years, If you want to learn it, drop the whole ego driven "prove it to me" attitude because the technique will run away from you just like stillness of mind will run away from a skeptical meditator who wants to "prove" the Tao.

 

IMHO, I still don't think you have investigated what your real motives and personal issues here are. I could be wrong, but I suspect that there is anger and fear. And as a Taoist, you know where those emotions will take you.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well and look forward to your findings...

 

my .02

Edited August 9, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig. I clearly didn't say "your inquiry was disrespectful". I said that declaring teachers fakes without so much as even meeting with them and spending some time with them is very disrespectful. I'll say it again. In my opinion, internal skill is not obvious from just viewing a video demo, so passing judgement on internal skill based on a video doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. At lower levels fajin may use more obvious force, but at higher levels it is not so obvious. I think you do understand what I am saying though because I think it is a straight forward enough concept.

 

You obviously are not getting what I am pursuing here. I am not just out and out calling all these chaps "fakers", though there is one or two who have already been confirmed as such. I have enough experience in mystic phenomena to believe this potential of human capability. What I am calling for is a long overdue project of investigation that involves some critical thinking and scientific evidence.

 

And videos on the net mean diddly squat, no arguments there. They neither prove nor disprove a thing. That's why my focus is for these "skills" to be shown either in full contact combat or double-blind experimentation.

 

Regardless of your main point of "disrespect", it is intrinsic in the martial arts field that people who call themselves master will be challenged. If you wanted to set up a school you would jump up on the Lei Tai podium and announce your supreme skill to all and then accept all challengers who stepped up with you. If you cleaned up or at least performed well enough you were entitled to set up a school. If not then piss off and go to another town/province.

 

Now these chaps are announcing their supreme skill across the web with their little videos, by doing so they are stepping up onto the Lei Tai podium. But are they accepting challengers? No not at all. As soon as anyone calls their bluff they carry on with all the BS that I have outlined so far, and now I can add a new excuse to the list which is your "you can't be disrespectful" dialogue.

 

Again back to The Emperor's New Clothes, you are saying that the boy who asks the obvious is being disrespectful for doing so.

 

I am intensely happy that our media isn't censured by the ideology that you are carrying on with, imagine journalists not being permitted to ask the rich and powerful some "disrespectful" questions. Imagine our health industry being able to make claims whilst also claiming immunity from investigative research and accountability.

 

The implication of what you are saying is that these internal martial arts chaps have a privileged place that is immune to accountability, inquiry, and scientific research. You are implying that they can make all the claims they want without recourse, that they don't have to show a single thread of evidence to substantiate their claims. And you are trying to oppose my attempts to make an objective inquiry on the basis that I am being "disrespectful".

 

I am not "mud-slinging", I am just asking a very straight forward question: Can you please demonstrate this Fajin (the sort of little or not touch) either in a full contact combat situation or a double-blind scientific environment?

 

Fairly straight forward to me.

 

[mYTHmAKER]

 

Then don't waste your time. Save your money. First let me say that Fa Jin is no big deal. It is just tendon flexibility combined with proper structure and techinque. If you are a true Tai Ji player and you have been taught how to stretch the tendons and increase Qi through your form, you can reproduce what is on the video posted earlier. In fact you could learn to do it in one day. I think what you are trying to prove is this "empty force" nonsense, not fa Jing. The guy in the video is moving and would not pass your test. He is just moving very, very slightly. watch again, you will see. This other guy has a book and teaches seminars. You can practice fa jing all day on others. Why not go see him and tell us what you think? I would love to hear about his classes.

He uses too much external force for the most part. IMHO

[Taomeow]

He uses too much external force for the most part. IMHO

 

Yup, and gives ample warning before he fajins, it's like someone who is getting ready to sneeze going aah...aaahhh...aaaaahhhh...choo! Well, if someone is going to sneeze in my face and gives all the indications, I'll protect myself... and if someone is going to fajin, ditto. As The Beatles almost sang, Hey! You've got to hide fajin away!

 

There's many ways you can tell the real thing from the fake and the master from the trying-to-be from a cursory glance. E.g., no one who can raise his/her arms from the spine without the shoulders floating up even a millimeter needs to fake anything. Also, you can see when "the whole body is a hand," one of the celebrated taiji principles, is in action -- fajin can be released by any part of the master's body touched or about to be touched by the opponent as efficiently as with the hands. There's one video among those posted in this thread where this is crystal clear at one point... I wonder if anyone else caught it?

[mYTHmAKER]

Yup, and gives ample warning before he fajins, it's like someone who is getting ready to sneeze going aah...aaahhh...aaaaahhhh...choo! Well, if someone is going to sneeze in my face and gives all the indications, I'll protect myself... and if someone is going to fajin, ditto. As The Beatles almost sang, Hey! You've got to hide fajin away!

 

There's many ways you can tell the real thing from the fake and the master from the trying-to-be from a cursory glance. E.g., no one who can raise his/her arms from the spine without the shoulders floating up even a millimeter needs to fake anything. Also, you can see when "the whole body is a hand," one of the celebrated taiji principles, is in action -- fajin can be released by any part of the master's body touched or about to be touched by the opponent as efficiently as with the hands. There's one video among those posted in this thread where this is crystal clear at one point... I wonder if anyone else caught it?

 

I haven't bothered to watch them all.

If I do not change my tempo, remain relaxed, connect to my opponents center - he will go without any effort on my part and i'm not that good. Now my teacher is something else

[Taomeow]

I haven't bothered to watch them all.

If I do not change my tempo, remain relaxed, connect to my opponents center - he will go without any effort on my part and i'm not that good. Now my teacher is something else

 

Effort is the end of it, definitely. I think a true master is as good at being effortless inside as a competent beginner can get outside in order to pull off beginner level fajin. Real, but not the whole story of what it can be.

 

The guy I mentioned who is 80 and has been practicing for 75 sleeps till 3 a.m. and then sits in meditation for four hours -- every day. If you can do THIS effortlessly, this will teach you how to be effortless inside... and the kind of fajin that will result can't even begin to get comprehended by the "experts."

 

I don't remember in which recent thread someone (sorry, forgot who) was advocating not being relaxed all the time with taiji, asserting you "need" to apply force in real fighting. Which is a clear indicator that no sparring, let alone fighting, with a true taiji master has ever been experienced by the author of this opinion. Nothing teaches like hands-on encounters. No studies at all can get the point across this fast and this cheaply.

[mYTHmAKER]

Effort is the end of it, definitely. I think a true master is as good at being effortless inside as a competent beginner can get outside in order to pull off beginner level fajin. Real, but not the whole story of what it can be.

 

The guy I mentioned who is 80 and has been practicing for 75 sleeps till 3 a.m. and then sits in meditation for four hours -- every day. If you can do THIS effortlessly, this will teach you how to be effortless inside... and the kind of fajin that will result can't even begin to get comprehended by the "experts."

 

I don't remember in which recent thread someone (sorry, forgot who) was advocating not being relaxed all the time with taiji, asserting you "need" to apply force in real fighting. Which is a clear indicator that no sparring, let alone fighting, with a true taiji master has ever been experienced by the author of this opinion. Nothing teaches like hands-on encounters. No studies at all can get the point across this fast and this cheaply.

 

In order for me to do my piddling fajin i must be effortless inside -

I have no idea of what it can be. I'll tell you when i get there BUT you'll have to be there with me to know.

otherwise i'll wind up one of Stigs test dummies and you all can discuss

[Stigweard]

fiveelementtao,

 

Ahh ... I get it, you are one of these chaps that is claiming special Qi skills that gives you superior combat abilities. Now that changes the context of our conversation entirely doesn't it?

 

It explains both your opposition to what I am suggesting and the manner in which you are doing it.

 

You are doing exactly what these other chaps have done when I directed my straight-forward question to them ... they tried to establish that there must be something wrong with the person asking. In their case they assumed that I must be some sort of rookie noob who doesn't have the necessary experience or correct training.

 

And now here you are trying to discredit my inquiry by trying to set me up as being "full of anger". Really Mike?? How dare you project onto me like that. You sure it's not your own anger you are detecting here?? Perhaps its your turn to take a moment and reflect on your intent here.

 

I very much take exception to your insinuations here Mike. Continue that line of accusation and I can assure you that our discussion here will become very much less civil.

 

And I think you need to reexamine what you are advising. You are basically saying that we should ignore left-brain function and only rely on right-brain function. Essentially saying that we should ignore critical thinking and objectivity and only rely on intuition and subjectivity.

 

Sorry to point this out but if we only required half a brain to reach the full potential of human existence we would have only been born with half a brain. The fact is that we have 2 halfs in our brains and I think it is a fair comment to say that we really should be using both sides to be a wholesome individual.

 

So I am declaring your "it's all right brain" theory nonsense and a prohibition to effective inquiry. You have to have a balance of both critical thinking and intuitive feeling. Too much reliance or emphasis either way and you will not embrace the whole truth of the matter. If it seems I am leaning too heavily in the critical thinking direction it's only because the pendulum is currently swinging too far in the "right brain" direction.

 

And in terms of your lethal combat test being the only legitimate laboratory. I wonder if you have really thought this through. If that is the case then every single clip on the web, including yours, are fake and phony. Because not a single one of them are shown in lethal combat scenarios.

 

And have you applied your "skills" in lethal combat Mike where someone was trying to end your life?? I am willing to lay odds that you haven't, in that case you only have your blind faith that your skills are real. Are you willing to risk your life on something that you have no tested proof of being effective Mike?

 

It would seem you are taking this extreme position as yet another way to excuse yourself from being accountable for the claims you are promoting. And please don't give me this dishonesty of you saying that you are not promoting anything. All I have to do is look at your signature and the vids you post on YouTube to see that you are making promotional claims of "super-powered" martial ability.

 

Previously I wasn't challenging you, but now that I can see your intent clearer in this conversation then, yes Mike, I now most certainly am.

 

So here it is Mike, can you please show a demonstration of you using your skills either in full contact combat or in a scientific environment that is consistent with the protocol outlined in the OP?

 

[templetao]

Well ill tell you about my empty force experience and let me know if any of you have experienced this is well.

 

 

What it felt like to me was an electromagnetic force pushed me back my bones vibrated heavily as i was pushed back and i felt very electric as this magnetic force buzzed me back.

 

I have never felt anything like this before or since. This is what guides my personal inner power training and theory.

Edited August 9, 2011 by templetao

[zerostao]

"Yup, and gives ample warning before he fajins, it's like someone who is getting ready to sneeze going aah...aaahhh...aaaaahhhh...choo! Well, if someone is going to sneeze in my face and gives all the indications, I'll protect myself... and if someone is going to fajin, ditto. As The Beatles almost sang, Hey! You've got to hide fajin away!"

Taomeow , i really like how you explain things. intercepting, what does that mean?

if one is a hard stylist then it may mean a block, right?

but for the IMA intercepting imo should be the act of stopping the other IMA from issuing

their energy. and one does not want to misfire or exhaust this energy for sure. and i am kinda sure IMA

is for internal martial artist , not internal martial scientist.

[goldisheavy]

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking. But for the most part you'll just get whatever you believed confirmed to you. For example, I don't believe in ghosts. And guess what? I don't see them. Ever. But I do believe in weird stuff, just not ghosts. So guess what? I've experienced weird stuff that I believe in. I don't believe in God, so God has never talked to me. Someone who sincerely believes in God probably had days when they could swear they heard God's voice. A hard physicalist like the Amazing Randi will confirm his physicalism everywhere he goes. A global climate change denier will find confirmation that climate change is a giant conspiracy no matter how hard he or she searches for evidence.

 

It doesn't mean anything is wrong with any of these people. The universe is a projection of one's own mind. You experience whatever you believe in. The world reflects your worldview. It's not right or wrong. It just is.

 

The decision here is this: what do you want your life to be like? Do you want more magic or not? If you want more magic, then the approach is to soften up physicalist beliefs, open one's heart, and try to live life with more wonder and you'll get what you want to get. If you don't want magic, then just ignore all the magic mumbo jumbo, perform your crafts, enjoy your hobbies and have a drink on Friday, etc. Neither approach is inherently right or wrong.

 

As for the martial applications, I think if taiji practitioners were serious, they'd be joining MMA competitions in droves. They don't join. This alone should tell you something.

 

When Gracie wanted to prove to the world that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was the best, he entered all kinds of competitions to represent his club and he put Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu on the map. He gave a dam, he believed in himself, and got it done.

 

Is this happening for Taiji? No. And there is a reason for it. So there is no need to demand proofs. Accept that taiji has nothing and move along. Taiji is yoga for health. It's not a combat art. You can probably (99.9% chance) walk up to Michael Phillips and knock all his teeth out in a few quick punches to his face. Taiji people like to be rooted. Well, imagine them getting kicked viciously by a kickboxer whose legs have been kicking tires and wooden dummies for years? Are they going to maintain root? No, they'll get their legs broken and scream in pain because they've never practiced meeting this kind of thing. They only practice with soft pudgy cuddly cooperating students who probably can't even press a kettlebell or do more than 20 pushups in a row and can't do one pullup and they go around talking about li being inferior.

 

I went to a taiji class and the instructor was showing me some form and was telling me how his qi was moving things out of the way, etc... well I held my arm out strongly and guess what? He almost crapped in his pants. He couldn't move my arm at all. And I am not even a strong man at all. I'm just not a metrosexual they've come to expect. I just held my arm and he couldn't move neither my arm nor me and he had to tell me to relax and to start cooperating to get his show back on the road. That's my personal experience. Since then I don't bother with Taiji.

 

But I still believe in paranormal power. It's just that to learn it you don't do Taiji. You have to learn it through philosophy, meditation, visualization, facing fears, etc... they don't teach any of that crap in any taiji class. I mean, not seriously. Do you learn to be insane in taiji? No you do not. What paranormal power can you exercise while maintaining sanity? Answer: none. If you maintain the mindset that ordinary people call sane you are impotent and hopeless. Tell me one taiji class that encourages people to abandon sanity and to leap off into the abyss? None that I know of. Any taiji class that warns people, "be ready to die and leave it all behind all ye who enter here"? None that I know of. So what paranormal power do you expect then? None. You come in ordinary and you leave ordinary. Does taiji training teach you anything wild or extraordinary? No. It does not. It teaches you really safe things, like feeling "energy" in the body. That's not a threatening thing. It's safe. You still get to hang on to your body. You still get to believe that the brain is where the mind is. You basically retain all your idiotic beliefs, plus you now believe in energy on top of the old rusty pile of useless limiting beliefs. See?

 

So there is no point in demanding and proposing anything. Everyone knows what's up. You know what you want is futile.

Edited August 9, 2011 by goldisheavy

[fiveelementtao]

Stiggie... You are taking this way too personally. I am getting the feeling you are not reading my posts thoroughly. go back and re-read my posts again without the defense. I am making no claims of any kind. Nor do I oppose anything you are trying to do. In fact I have encouraged you to please disprove this stuff. ( if that is what you want to do)

 

Stiggie, Because this was your thread, I peaked inside and wanted to chime in because I like and respect you and you have always struck me as a levelheaded, objective person. If this were one of the thousand other nonsense threads about this stuff, I would have ignored it. I didn't come in here to bash you. I am honestly sharing my experience with you. Do with it what you like...

 

I mean exactly what I say and I will say it again. Based on my personal experience....If what you want to do is personally experience this phenomena and then be able to replicate it, IN MY EXPERIENCE, you will have much better results if you simply go and try to learn it with an open mind and have fun. IN MY EXPERIENCE, if you try and "prove" it, you most likely will not be able to get any real scientific proof that will be universally recognized as proof. If on the off chance you find a real practicioner who is willing to allow you to put them in your lab experiments and on the off chance they have any abilities, you will be frustrated with the results. Unless they are only exhibiting tendon strength and calling it FaJin, then you will easily be able to disprove it as anything other than good body mechanics and the laws of physics. I predict (if they are for real) that conclusive proof will evade you. In the end, you will only have your personal experience and you will not be able to prove it. If you try and prove it and you are able to have a personal experience, your mindset of trying to prove it will prohibit you from being able to replicate it. That is my experience. I mentioned the right brain, left brain thing because when I was training, while I was able to experience the phenomena passively while analyzing it, I was unable to replicate the phenomena unless I was deep in my right brain.

 

I also didn't say you were 'full of anger," I said that your desire to challenge people is based in anger. I get angry with people that I feel are frauds too. I am furious with the Tea party. Anger has it's place. I am not judging anger. If you feel these people are ruining the reputation of Tai Chi, then you are justified in your anger and you should do something about it.. But if you want to learn it... it will not help you learn energy strikes... That is just my experience.

 

You can get offended if you want but as someone on this board I actually respect, and assuming you really want to understand this phenomena, then I am sharing what I know. Seriously, dude, take it or leave it... It still seems to me that you have an intense personal agenda with alot of emotions attached to it. Otherwise, I think If you were really honestly just curious to discover for yourself one way or another about this you wouldn't put so much effort into all this experiment stuff. You would just go out and try and learn it. If you were firm in your disbelief you would just let it go.

 

I never said there was anything wrong with your question either. I am not advertising myself in this regard. I no longer practice Fa Qi and I don't teach it. I don't care if I ever experience it again in this life. so I have no personal stake in this at all and therefore I do not feel the need to cowtow to your demand that I answer your question. I don't care about the existence or non-existence of these abilities. You do. Ask someone who has the need to prove something. I don't.

 

I very much take exception to your insinuations here Mike. Continue that line of accusation and I can assure you that our discussion here will become very much less civil.

 

Wow! what insinuations? What do you think I have insinuated that has you ready to become so uncivil???

 

You are doing exactly what these other chaps have done when I directed my straight-forward question to them ... they tried to establish that there must be something wrong with the person asking. In their case they assumed that I must be some sort of rookie noob who doesn't have the necessary experience or correct training.

I am not saying anything of the kind. I have merely shared with you that FROM MY EXPERIENCE as someone who has trained in this kind of thing for many years, that you will not make any headway with the analytical approach... That is all. You can argue from now until forever about the need for left brain this and that. And I will agree with you most of the time except in this instance and only based on my experiences, (If what you say is true and what you want is to either prove or disprove this phenomenom so you can either learn it or forget about it) I predict that your approach will not work for you. That is all. I may be wrong and will promptly and happily apologize after your search if I am...

 

And in terms of your lethal combat test being the only legitimate laboratory. I wonder if you have really thought this through. If that is the case then every single clip on the web, including yours, are fake and phony. Because not a single one of them are shown in lethal combat scenarios.

You and I are in 100% agreement here. Everything ever put on video ( including my old stuff that I heartily regret and would take down if I could) is total nonsense because it does not show what would happen in life and death combat scenario. This is what I have been saying. I am with you fully on this point. But you want to paint me as your adversary as someone arguing for proving the existence of this stuff. I am not. It means NOTHING. PLEASE disprove it. Whether it is real or not... It's worthless in the game of life and a distraction to real spiritual growth.

 

And have you applied your "skills" in lethal combat Mike where someone was trying to end your life?? I am willing to lay odds that you haven't, in that case you only have your blind faith that your skills are real. Are you willing to risk your life on something that you have no tested proof of being effective Mike?

Nope. Have you applied your skills in lethal combat? Do you still think they would work based on your training? What makes me different than you? I have proved my fighting skills in real life to my satisfaction regardless of whether they are "spiritual" abilities or not. They worked damn good against some pretty mean folks. I was not thinking about the supernaturalness of them and that is my point. I am trying to say that... whatever these Qi oriented skills are or not is irrelevant. Qi is a force just like any other. I may have a different experience of it than you in terms of Martial arts, but I don't consider Qi phenomena to be anything other than another force of nature like muscles or wind or electricity. Lou ferrigno would look like a god to 1st century pygmies. While we are on the subject, since you are putting these demnstrators on the podium and demand that they be willing to prove their powers in combat, then it is only fair that you also be prepared to test them yourself in combat. Are you willing to do that? Or are you only willing to put them under your microscope according to your parameters? That standard goes both ways...

 

Stig, I have no animosity toward you. I am sorry to have offended you, I meant none... I wish you luck in your experiments...

Edited August 9, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[dawei]

intercepting, what does that mean?

if one is a hard stylist then it may mean a block, right?

but for the IMA intercepting imo should be the act of stopping the other IMA from issuing their energy.

Hopefully you get your original question answered.

 

IMO, you can think how martial artist intercepts (or deflects or side steps) a punch.

 

Imagine that with energy infiltration or penetration. Have you ever felt that attack you?

[Stigweard]

Critical thinking time.

 

I'd like to reveal something that I "learned" during my Yang family training. My teacher was a student of Master Chu King Hung, present-day 3rd disciple of the Yang Family and student of Master Yang Shou-chung.

 

Right from the start of training the student is indoctrinated into learning how to be pushed "properly". And I will show you examples of this in the videos below.

 

When we did our fajin testing the person being pushed was trained to receive the push in a very certain way. We were told to lock our structure together and yield to the push, it was what could be called an abiding or compliant resistance rather than true resistance.

 

It is introduced under the guise of fajin testing, giving the person practicing a feeling of opposition but not too much to oppose them completely. It was like a bio-feedback, the further back the person gets pushed the more fajin was produced. It is only meant to test that the pusher's structure and coordination is right. Often though were we admonished for "not resisting properly" meaning we didn't lock our structure together properly and we didn't comply to the push enough.

 

Looking at these videos now I can see how this has permeated the curriculum of modern Taiji training so much that these folks are actually using this fajin training technique as a way to somehow prove some sort of special ability. Have a careful look at the arms and structure of the students in this video:

 

 

In every single push do you see how the student locks their structure? In some cases you can even see where the student has actually pushed themselves off the teacher's push

 

That is exactly how we were drilled to receive our teachers fajin and each others fajin in practice. All it is is a training practice, but these teachers are now ludicrously making it into so much more.

 

Go to 2:39 in this video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk&feature=player_embedded

 

Notice that one of Micheal's pushes didn't go quite right? He then admonished the other chap twice, "Don't lose your structure". That is EXACTLY what my teacher would say if we didn't resist in the "right" way. It means the other chap hadn't locked his structure correctly for the fajin to push him away in the "right" way.

 

LOL this is all just a classic symptom of what happens when you insulate yourself from having your style pressure tested by mixing it with other styles and in non-compliant combat scenario.

 

Here's the end result of such group indoctrination (get through the first talky stuff to the demo):

 

[dawei]

I am sure there is no final word to all this. I think Stig has a valid and reasonable original inquiry; that what we see posed as Fa Jin is not really true; which raises the question of the validity, and is there some yardstick or measurement that can be applied.

 

The counter problem is as has been stated; some of the highest level guys will not simply come to our door step; some have practices and we are welcome to go to them; and in the end, it may not be measurable anyways. This is a right brain issue in the end being questioned by the left brain. So what is the ultimate point of it all?

 

I agree with much of what is being said here in the last few posts but I don't think it's necessary to make it some sort of battle.

 

What I will say, after thinking seriously for a day and talking to my Qigong master is this; the following is completely unreasonable to ask and this website may be the wrong place to demand proof anyways.

 

"can you please show a demonstration of you using your skills either in full contact combat or in a scientific environment that is consistent with the protocol outlined in the OP?"

 

---

 

I initially was willing to get involved in visiting someone but now I see no point in such guys as MP. He is not trained in Qigong and not in martial aspects from what I can tell. Whatever he has developed, he has and anyone can go see him.

 

I think the point should NOT be in going to discredit people. Let's take a positive approach and ask someone who has experience to share that experience. Let us experience and grown from that. We may not find a Jedi master but let's work with those who are open and welcome such inquiries and let's learn more from it.

 

For this reason, I would propose that the TB consider sponsoring some sort of retreat where we can bring together various masters to teach something in the aim of openness and learning.

 

As a start, I will say that my Qigong master participated in full contact fighting in asia (undefeated) and was in a military special ops (their unit did not exist, if you get the drift); He can teach you how to use Qi in killing someone if that is what you want; he may not want to teach that. I can think of a number of topics of interest.

 

So I think we should re-think the issue in a positive way; how we can all grow and be exposed to energy work. This is something I would truly be willing to help organize.

Edited August 9, 2011 by dawei

[Stigweard]

Stiggie... You are taking this way too personally. I am getting the feeling you are not reading my posts thoroughly. go back and re-read my posts again without the defense. I am making no claims of any kind. Nor do I oppose anything you are trying to do. In fact I have encouraged you to please disprove this stuff. ( if that is what you want to do)

 

Stiggie, Because this was your thread, I peaked inside and wanted to chime in because I like and respect you and you have always struck me as a levelheaded, objective person. If this were one of the thousand other nonsense threads about this stuff, I would have ignored it. I didn't come in here to bash you. I am honestly sharing my experience with you. Do with it what you like...

 

Heya Mike, I will take your word on what you are saying

 

And if you ever, ever see me making any sort of superior martial arts claim then I beg you to be the first to smack me up the side of the head and demand that I prove myself in full combat. Deal?

 

So all is good right? Cool ... back to the pool table then ... your break if I recall

 

[Taomeow]

"Yup, and gives ample warning before he fajins, it's like someone who is getting ready to sneeze going aah...aaahhh...aaaaahhhh...choo! Well, if someone is going to sneeze in my face and gives all the indications, I'll protect myself... and if someone is going to fajin, ditto. As The Beatles almost sang, Hey! You've got to hide fajin away!"

Taomeow , i really like how you explain things. intercepting, what does that mean?

if one is a hard stylist then it may mean a block, right?

but for the IMA intercepting imo should be the act of stopping the other IMA from issuing

their energy. and one does not want to misfire or exhaust this energy for sure. and i am kinda sure IMA

is for internal martial artist , not internal martial scientist.

 

However, "internal martial scientists" sound very intimidating!

 

"Intercepting," well, don't take my word for it because my PH experience is very modest, but it is my understanding that it requires song and rooting developed considerably, peng if you want to return the force rather than merely neutralize it, and very high all-around sensitivity (to touch, which is what PH practice done correctly develops -- fine-tuned perceptions informing of the opponents' muscle tone, weight distribution, and any and all changes therein as they occur; also visual awareness toward the same goal; also psychological awareness, noticing the opponent's state of mind, breathing, eye movements... down to qi flow, which very sensitive and experienced folks "hear" and "see" and "smell" and ultimately "read.") These skills of course come after many prerequisites have been taken care of by enough correct practice -- postural alignments, precise weight distribution, the ability to open all the joints, kua mobility, yao stability, etc. etc. -- a LOT of stuff... every little accomplishment is, as a very accomplished guy explained to me, akin to a sheet of paper you are adding on top of a pile if the goal is to make a mountain... that's how taiji skill grows.

 

Moment to moment awareness of the total picture comes not in sequence but all at once, and changes moment to moment also in its totality. If you perceive its totality, a pattern therein, and anticipate changes of this pattern because you understand the pattern and know what kind of changes it leads to, this "intercepts" any new change before it occurs -- that's one psychophysical component of it, weighed toward "psycho," but then you can redistribute the weight of "intercept" toward more "physical" -- i.e. when all of the prerequisites are embodied, all oncoming force can be transmitted down the skeletal structure to the legs and then to the ground and under the opponent's root (if he has any, or else under the unrooted structure which is oh so much easier to send flying ). So you intercept his onslaught and uproot him with his own force without having spent any of your own. That's when they go boink effortlessly when it's real, and that's what they're trying to imitate when it's not.

[dawei]

for these "skills" to be shown either in full contact combat or double-blind experimentation.

I think the former question is somewhat legitimate but the latter will not happen. But that means someone recorded combats which show would show it in a way that everyone believe it? I don't think so.

 

I asked my Qigong master about his involvement in this since he was both a martial fighter and in military special ops. He said to look at the Russian Martial Arts used for combat. He said this is really the same training he learned (combine combat with Qi). He did say you cannot know the Qi involvement unless your the giver or the receiver of it. It's too hard to make it evident that an organ or the body's Qi field is truly penetrated. He had previously shown me this in three punches all with the same force:

1. Physical punch (moved back a bit)

2. Physical punch with Qi (moved back about 3x as much)

3. Physical punch with Qi and Shen (hurled over with gasp like I was throwing up)

 

He assured me this was very light contact and it would be nothing to shut down an organ if he wanted.

 

If all people want is a taste of such things, well, I guess if that is what it takes to believe they can go for it. I propose we find something worthing getting exposed to and learning it and one decides what they want to pursue later.

 

 

Here are the Russian youtubes I could find. I am not saying this convinces anyone of anything and there is a fair amount of external power here; but one has to experience some of it, I guess:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edq6ad7CES8

[fiveelementtao]

So all is good right? Cool ... back to the pool table then ... your break if I recall

 

Yes, My break. I call stripes...

And if you ever, ever see me making any sort of superior martial arts claim then I beg you to be the first to smack me up the side of the head and demand that I prove myself in full combat. Deal?

Nope. It is a free Universe and you are permitted to make any claims you like and say and think whatever you like. I hate physical violence and I do not recommend it under any preventable circumstances. Is that wrong of me since I am also a martial artist?

 

Peace

[The Way Is Virtue]

I am intensely happy that our media isn't censured by the ideology that you are carrying on with, imagine journalists not being permitted to ask the rich and powerful some "disrespectful" questions. Imagine our health industry being able to make claims whilst also claiming immunity from investigative research and accountability.

 

Stig, I think it is quite clear that I am not objecting to questons being asked or anyone checking different people out to see what their skill level is. I was objecting to implications by yourself and a few others here that certain people are fakes and such based solely at looking at a video. Enough said.

Edited August 9, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Stigweard]

I think the former question is somewhat legitimate but the latter will not happen. But that means someone recorded combats which show would show it in a way that everyone believe it? I don't think so.

 

I asked my Qigong master about his involvement in this since he was both a martial fighter and in military special ops. He said to look at the Russian Martial Arts used for combat. He said this is really the same training he learned (combine combat with Qi). He did say you cannot know the Qi involvement unless your the giver or the receiver of it. It's too hard to make it evident that an organ or the body's Qi field is truly penetrated. He had previously shown me this in three punches all with the same force:

1. Physical punch (moved back a bit)

2. Physical punch with Qi (moved back about 3x as much)

3. Physical punch with Qi and Shen (hurled over with gasp like I was throwing up)

 

He assured me this was very light contact and it would be nothing to shut down an organ if he wanted.

 

If all people want is a taste of such things, well, I guess if that is what it takes to believe they can go for it. I propose we find something worthing getting exposed to and learning it and one decides what they want to pursue later.

 

 

Here are the Russian youtubes I could find. I am not saying this convinces anyone of anything and there is a fair amount of external power here; but one has to experience some of it, I guess:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edq6ad7CES8

I respect your comments Dawei, I still however feel confident that certain of these light/no touch fajin feats can be successfully tested. We will see where this leads.

 

Interesting indeed that your teacher would recommend Systema. That's officially the third recommendation from the Taiji world that I have heard of. It's why I am training now under Australia's main instructor Andrew Seyderhelm and am passing it on to my students.

 

Also interestingly unfortunate that the clips you posted included footage of Vadim Starov. Apparently he only trained with Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev for a short while before trying to make a name for himself. The results were pretty disastrous:

 

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ1NzA0OTky.html

 

Every style needs to be tested

Edited August 9, 2011 by Stigweard

[minkus]

Here is some crispy fresh fajin for you guys

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers !

[C T]

Interesting 20 min chat/demo between Master Fong Ha and some IMA enthusiasts - - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f8oujzwhTo