TTC 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder?

[Everything]

Ah, yes, you speak of a wonderful state.

 

But can any of us attain that state in the world we live in today? Sure, I attain it on occasion. But then reality draws me back to be concerned about things. The child had no responsibilities - no concerns. I have to pay taxes and all the other duties of living in this reality.

With our current technology, food, water and schooling can become free for sure... Plenty of time when food and water are free, plenty of teachers around... I really hope for something like The Venus Project to become popular, I dreamed of such fairy tales since my childhood.

 

My parents always talk about the joy of living in their original country, how they went out and gathered food, prepared the soil, walked miles to get drinking water... That is freedom to me.

[Everything]

I think the childlike wonder that the sage develops is not a thing that comes and goes. Letting our inner child out to play, as people like to say, is a different thing. In my opinion, that's when we cut loose from our adult responsibilities, etc. The sage isn't about cutting loose. He sees awe and wonder at everything, just as a child who is born with no preconceptions. He brings this sense of wonder with him wherever he goes, because he sees everything as an extension of his own humanness. He does not take things like wind, and ants, and spider webs for granted because they are things of wonder and the sage will have the time to stop and wonder at it.

As a child. Prior to conditioning from others.

Why is letting our inner baby out a diffrent thing from curiosity? And how can our inner baby come and go when it is always there? We choose to become it or not. The most inellectually succesful people in the world always put emphasis on the importance of playing. Infact, they claim that constant work and labor makes you dumb and lack experience and thus creativity. Curisioty is the opposite of chaos and the opposite of organized. Curiosity is thus the perfect balance in the middle. In tune with the mysteries, prone to discover truth. It requires both play and education. You cannot be a baby all your life and expect to achieve great things, but being too serious with life doesn't help either.

 

Also, it depends on the environment how one should act, or when one should be egoless or not. Playful or organized, caring or couragious. Addapt to the environment by choosing the appropriate one. You can never achieve perfect balance, but it certainly can be aimed for. One or the other to the extremes does not exist either in that sense.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Everything

[manitou]

Why is letting our inner baby out a diffrent thing from curiosity? And how can our inner baby come and go when it is always there? We choose to become it or not. The most inellectually succesful people in the world always put emphasis on the importance of playing. Infact, they claim that constant work and labor makes you dumb and lack experience and thus creativity. Curisioty is the opposite of chaos and the opposite of organized. Curiosity is thus the perfect balance in the middle. In tune with the mysteries, prone to discover truth. It requires both play and education. You cannot be a baby all your life and expect to discover great thing.

 

 

I'm sure you are absolutely right here, in a scientific sense. All I can speak of is my own experience of having done inner work for 30 years. I used to be cynical and judgmental. Now I am not. I see wonder everywhere. It really does happen, but it doesn't happen overnight, and in my opinion it takes real work. Curiosity seems to be more of an intellectual thing, a thing borne from intelligence. This other thing that happens to us is more of a constant mind-state that becomes part of our personality after the inner cynicisms, hates, judgments have been cleared out. This is why we must learn to transcend ego and become willing to make the inner changes that need to be made for clarity of vision. It hurts, and it's not usually pleasant. But the pony is there at the bottom of the pile. The problem with this view is, nobody wants to do it because everyone's ego tells them that they already know it all. My only point is that it's a result of self-realization, which doesn't happen automatically. And funnily enough, self-realization is only fully recognized by other self-realized ones. It takes having Eyes.

[steve]

I know what you mean with present minded. It really makes me calm and centered, but it also feels so detached and not "connected" like the experience of egolessness you guys are descrbing. Whats up with that?

 

If anything at all, staying aware in the present moment kinda makes me tranquill, without the peoples care, simply observing the senses for what they are. Its great for calming down or relaxing, focusing, learning, growing. What about loving, connecting? Are you saying egoless by your definition means something totally diffrent from "without ego"?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'd like to toss something out there.

Try bringing that same quality of open-ness and awareness in the present moment into relationships.

 

Try this the next time you are with someone you are in a relationship with (spouse, lover, close friend). Try to let go everything you think, assume, know, or take for granted about that person. Be with them as if with a stranger - not literally, you don't need to pretend you don't know their name for example. But recognize that we create an image or a story in our heads about people and then we assume that the image is what that person is. Do you know what I mean? So really look at them. Look at things you usually ignore - her knees, her ears, her back, hair, clothes, whatever. And really listen to his/her voice, not just the words. Is it deep, scratchy, nervous, sexy? Really pay attention to everything about that person that you can, and everything around you, and also how you feel inside, and what your thoughts are doing. It's difficult and takes a lot of practice but you may be very surprised. You may feel like you are meeting this person for the first time. And you are!

 

I do the same with nature, when I'm driving, with my work. It's a very different experience of life.

 

The way our minds work is to create images. We then make decisions and behave in a certain way based on those images. So I meet someone and within seconds, I think I know that person based on their gender, age, race, appearance, etc... This is an important survival skill but it is not effective in establishing and maintaining relationships. And we similarly create an image of ourselves. So my relationship with you really doesn't exist. My image of myself interacts with my image of you in my head and I call that a relationship.

 

If you learn to really let go of these images, stories, and preconceptions, then you will make a true connection - with nature, with other people, and most importantly, with yourself. There will be real relationship. That is the basis of love.

[Otis]

Hi Everything,

 

I just want to say, that I think you're asking excellent questions. It's easy for us all to say: oh Taoism is a nice philosophy, it's charming, and it makes us feel good to think about.

 

But really, when we look at the TTC, we find that Taoism is a radical shift, in how we view the world.

 

What it is not, however, is idealistic. It is not about pretending that there is not corruption and harm in the world. Chapter 49 describes the sage, but does not say: "and to be a good Taoist, you should behave the same way, even if it doesn't make sense to you".

 

We should be careful though, not to judge the sage, by our limited standards. Do we look at Mother Theresa and conclude that she has a "personality disorder", because her boundaries are so much less than yours and mine?

 

Right now, you're asking: "what's wrong with this picture?" And that's fine. But I don't think you'll find the answer you're looking for, because you're continuing to view it from the perspective of "I have to protect mine".

 

If we want to understand the sage, I think we have to put ourselves in the realm of the sage within us, even if we haven't learned to live that way, all the time. You say you experience egolessness, and you experience equanimity. If you ask your questions from that state, I think different answers will make sense to you.

 

The sage, as I understand her, is not a passive figure. She is the most dynamic person in the world, although not necessarily from an external point of view. She is dynamic because, like a champion surfer, she is riding on the very crest - of responsibility and awareness. In situations where most of us will jump to conclusions, she will see that reality is much deeper and more textured than our ego-formed opinions will allow.

 

For example, someone cuts you off in traffic and gives you the finger. You have every right to think of this person as an a**hole. But, if you were to follow this person throughout their life, you'd probably find someone, who is very much like yourself. They have good days and bad days. They make mistakes, and the also do acts of generosity. They love the people close to them, and strive to provide for them. Once you get to know this person, it's likely that you will see this moment of road rage, as just one facet, one unfortunate example of the growth, that they have not yet achieved.

 

The ego wants everything to be simple, to be black and white, right and wrong. It wants there to be "good" and "bad" people, ones you can trust and ones you can't. But the world is not that simple. People are complicated, and they are, at times, thoughtless. But few people are really "bad", just as few people are really "good". Sometimes, all a person needs to act trustworthy, is to be shown some trust.

 

What we see as bad in others is often precisely their egos, not being able to handle complexity, and therefore acting from overly-simplistic dualistic paradigms. So, if we want to live as a sage, then we need to be able to do better, ourselves. We need to be able to handle complexity, not by knowing everything about everybody, but by being willing to be give others the benefit of the doubt, by being willing to be patient with our judgments, generous with our opinions, kind with our reactions. We become childlike in our willingness not to come to snap decisions and opinions, but we also become like a grandparent, in our willingness to allow children to be children. We do not have to spoil anyone, but we should recognize that being human, is a messy thing. Everyone thrashes about some, and those in pain, thrash even more. But just condemning others for their unconsciousness is to forget that we, too, are human, who sometimes thrash, who sometimes forget others' humanity.

 

Freedom comes, more than anything, from responsibility. Only by being utterly responsible for our own emotions, our own perceptions, and our own reactions, can we see other people the way the sage does. Only when we're able to feel and perceive deeper than the superficial world our ego wants to create, can we make sense of chapter 49, and Taoism in general.

[Otis]

Try bringing that same quality of open-ness and awareness in the present moment into relationships.

 

Try this the next time you are with someone you are in a relationship with (spouse, lover, close friend). Try to let go everything you think, assume, know, or take for granted about that person. Be with them as if with a stranger - not literally, you don't need to pretend you don't know their name for example. But recognize that we create an image or a story in our heads about people and then we assume that the image is what that person is. Do you know what I mean? So really look at them. Look at things you usually ignore - her knees, her ears, her back, hair, clothes, whatever. And really listen to his/her voice, not just the words. Is it deep, scratchy, nervous, sexy? Really pay attention to everything about that person that you can, and everything around you, and also how you feel inside, and what your thoughts are doing. It's difficult and takes a lot of practice but you may be very surprised. You may feel like you are meeting this person for the first time. And you are!

 

I do the same with nature, when I'm driving, with my work. It's a very different experience of life.

 

The way our minds work is to create images. We then make decisions and behave in a certain way based on those images. So I meet someone and within seconds, I think I know that person based on their gender, age, race, appearance, etc... This is an important survival skill but it is not effective in establishing and maintaining relationships. And we similarly create an image of ourselves. So my relationship with you really doesn't exist. My image of myself interacts with my image of you in my head and I call that a relationship.

 

If you learn to really let go of these images, stories, and preconceptions, then you will make a true connection - with nature, with other people, and most importantly, with yourself. There will be real relationship. That is the basis of love.

Excellent!

[Everything]

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'd like to toss something out there.

Try bringing that same quality of open-ness and awareness in the present moment into relationships.

 

Try this the next time you are with someone you are in a relationship with (spouse, lover, close friend). Try to let go everything you think, assume, know, or take for granted about that person. Be with them as if with a stranger - not literally, you don't need to pretend you don't know their name for example. But recognize that we create an image or a story in our heads about people and then we assume that the image is what that person is. Do you know what I mean? So really look at them. Look at things you usually ignore - her knees, her ears, her back, hair, clothes, whatever. And really listen to his/her voice, not just the words. Is it deep, scratchy, nervous, sexy? Really pay attention to everything about that person that you can, and everything around you, and also how you feel inside, and what your thoughts are doing. It's difficult and takes a lot of practice but you may be very surprised. You may feel like you are meeting this person for the first time. And you are!

 

I do the same with nature, when I'm driving, with my work. It's a very different experience of life.

 

The way our minds work is to create images. We then make decisions and behave in a certain way based on those images. So I meet someone and within seconds, I think I know that person based on their gender, age, race, appearance, etc... This is an important survival skill but it is not effective in establishing and maintaining relationships. And we similarly create an image of ourselves. So my relationship with you really doesn't exist. My image of myself interacts with my image of you in my head and I call that a relationship.

 

If you learn to really let go of these images, stories, and preconceptions, then you will make a true connection - with nature, with other people, and most importantly, with yourself. There will be real relationship. That is the basis of love.

I see what you're trying to describe. I've experienced this aswell. The thing you are talking about Is the ilusion of memory. Living in the past or future, not realizing that every moment is actually new and diffrent and every moment someone becomes a new person aswell.

 

 

When you look at amnesia patients who function pretty good and don't recall, they live in the present moment constantly. Kinda in a radical sense of what the buddhist is suggesting that we do. Everytime the meet you for the first time, or did they? Turns out they have hunches and feelings about people. For example they're prone to talk to their neighbours who they like most. You not meet a person for the first time because human nature is with ego. We can never truely be present and without ego, because a single unit of present moment is so small that space no longer exists and these stuff are simply not to be contemplated by human thought. We are not evolved to understand such things.

 

We use science like math, which is egoless, to head into to present for us. Wen calculate in quantum physics. One who wishes to become truely like nature should kill himself in my opinion and plant a tree on top of his body. I mean isn't staying present minded and think pure present minded thoughts 100% of the time a bit radical and lifeless? We just become presently aware when we require to change our behaviour, when we learn, grow, calm down. I don't see a better connect in the presentnmoment either. If anything at all, a connection comes from empathy and mirroring the person neurologically. We in a sense become the other person with part of our awareness, his ego opens up and joins the boundaries of ours. We share our inner resources like happiness, ideas, and explore how our two souls interact and fit together.

 

 

I know this present minded experience, expansion of awareness. But what does it accomplish really, change behaviour? Great, then you are talking about observing your own ego, becoming aware of the self, observing the self in the present moment, monitoring your own behaviour. A journal is great for that kind of stuff, some guys even film their entire life with sensecam to self observe better and increase awareness that way. But what does the present moment really have to do with it? It doesn't have got to do anything with present mindedness, because we are often present minded. The problem here is awareness and you advocate an expansion of this awareness during interaction within relationships. This is great for monitoring your own behaviour, as is a journal. But we have to sometimes fully put our selfs out their with all our focus on interaction. We can't constantly monitor everything. Sometimes you just learn and it becomes automatic and you move on to the next focus of learning. People use awareness on stuff like staring at a wall while they should focus it on more important things that could reveal life enhancing experiences. But only when you can judge for yourself that staring at a wall has been mastered enough for now.

 

Is there perhaps more to the present moment then monitoring, making decisions and growing?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[steve]

Hi Everything,

 

I just want to say, that I think you're asking excellent questions.

I'd like to second that.

When I started to explore Daoism, I found the classics to be impossible to comprehend.

It still takes time and patience for me to penetrate what is being offered.

I love how Osho talks about Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, and Lie Zi in his books.

He refers to Lao Zi as a radical and very challenging but also as "the master key."

[manitou]

Steve and Otis - I am totally in awe of both of you at this moment. Maybe even forever, I'm not sure. Those are two of the best posts I've ever read.

 

The incredible knowledge and power that comes with totally taking responsibility for your own life. The knowledge that we have indeed, at some level, created this for ourselves. That we and only we have the power to change it.

 

To know that if we are victimized over and over it's because we need, at some very deep level, to be a victim. To stop blaming everything and everybody else for what happens to us. To realize that we are indeed the creator of sorts; if we are creating lack in our lives over and over, it's because our souls require inner knowledge of lack before the opposite can be realized. To fully know that we are our own worst enemies. That the reason it's so darn hard to heal ourselves if because it's so darn hard to love ourselves.

 

To be able to admit that we are wrong.

 

To cease to fear death, from which all other fears rise.

[Everything]

Hi Everything,

 

I just want to say, that I think you're asking excellent questions. It's easy for us all to say: oh Taoism is a nice philosophy, it's charming, and it makes us feel good to think about.

 

But really, when...

 

 

 

...able to feel and perceive deeper than the superficial world our ego wants to create, can we make sense of chapter 49, and Taoism in general.

Man... Big post, thanks.

 

When I think about about someone getting angry at a person who throws the finger at you I suspect that he has no identity, no clear boundary, and thus no ego. The ego to me is the believes of a person, his preferences, his reality. So a child, not having a mature ego, is vulnerable to outside persons pushing his/her buttons. The mother gets angry, he gets sad. Because the child is not an individual, he is boundless, the parents form his boundaries for him. Then when hes grown up, he starts to reject and say no to his parents. He starts to develop his own boundaries, preferences, ego. He then meets the love of his life. He throws it all away, becomes egoless, loathing to be limited by boundaries and limits, like a child. He or she discovers that there is nothing bigger of a love killer then limits, rules, intellectual ideas, structure, ego. He/she throws ego away, but will feel drained and feel lacks in his life. Lies start to pop up in the relationship, fighting begins, addictions lurk around corners, loosers and winners are born fornthe following reason:

 

Egolessness. Plus: egolessness should cause death so that identity and boundaries can be reborn more maturely and strong, but it doesn't happen in our society... There is no one good and up to date initiation into manhood for example. Constant love, passion, boundless, the peoples mind is your mind, being good to bad, bla bla. Everything this chapter says is about egolessness. People become one, they stick to eachother like gum and never feel they have personal time. They are no longer individuals... The other person becomes their half. In the end one dumps the other and walks away with all the resources of time, happiness, and freedom. One has to loose eventually.

 

With ego, the person is constantly working and isolated, commited stubborn judgemental perhaps like you mentioned. They become deprived of love. So aren't both bad when they're taken to extremes? How about love, yet agreeing to disagree sometimes. Agreeing to be individuals and trust the partnership, trust the ego to not cheat and to return to love at the end of the day. Isn't that much more mature, isn't that how the most succesful and happy long lasting marriages have gone about doing their bussiness? We can't expect to feel a lack of self and then say "if you feel a lack, throw away your ego! Didn't work? Come let me show how to neglect and not use your ego more often for just 99 dollah! Still lack? Oh well you forgot this really cool technique thats all about love n egolessness and connection!" this is madness man.

 

Don you know what the definition of madness is? Its doing the same thing over and over again and expecting diffrent results.

 

I mean whats your say in all of this? I'm sorry in advanve for some lame text here btw, writing on iPhone very often. Not used to doing it quickly like a keyboard.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

I think you're hitting on something important here.

 

The hard-core drug addict has tunnel vision. He sees nothing beyond his next hit. Family and friends are ignored, as if they're in the periphery. That clearly is not a path of freedom.

 

But the surrendered ego does not have to have tunnel vision. Awareness and centering practice are about staying clear and calm, open and unhurried. Willingness to not make choices doesn't have to be a "turning off", but can be a "turning on" to awareness of the present moment.

 

The important distinction, IME, is that "I" (my ego) has to be willing to surrender, while simultaneously staying present, aware. If "I" get distracted, or "drift off" from the present moment, then I am like the addict, my "spontaneous action" just arising from habit. But if I can stay present, without feeling the need to change what's happening, then I find that the greater organism seems to make the right choices for me.

Wow, that great way of putting it. But I really see alot of addicts are actually letting go of life by not making decisions for them selves. My philosophy has always been "willingness to choose to do not. Indecisiveness is what a bastard would advocate his slaves to addopt. No one gains from telling you where your freedom lies, so don't even trust me for that matter to make decisions for you. Still I'm going to say I highly discourage indecisiveness.. LettIng the organism choose is like allowing your impulses to live for you, on auto-pilot. You can not learn if you do not engage in life.

 

However, when you simply mean to let go and detach from your own ego only to observe it from a sky view perspective, then yeah. That great. That is increasing awareness of your self to learn from your own behaviour, monitor it, stay cool, etc.

[Everything]

I'm sure you are absolutely right here, in a scientific sense. All I can speak of is my own experience of having done inner work for 30 years. I used to be cynical and judgmental. Now I am not. I see wonder everywhere. It really does happen, but it doesn't happen overnight, and in my opinion it takes real work. Curiosity seems to be more of an intellectual thing, a thing borne from intelligence. This other thing that happens to us is more of a constant mind-state that becomes part of our personality after the inner cynicisms, hates, judgments have been cleared out. This is why we must learn to transcend ego and become willing to make the inner changes that need to be made for clarity of vision. It hurts, and it's not usually pleasant. But the pony is there at the bottom of the pile. The problem with this view is, nobody wants to do it because everyone's ego tells them that they already know it all. My only point is that it's a result of self-realization, which doesn't happen automatically. And funnily enough, self-realization is only fully recognized by other self-realized ones. It takes having Eyes.

I wanted add on the side that I actually experience that intellect is born out of curiosity, hehe. In my country we call this comment ant-f'ing but don't know the english word for it ^^ anyways...

So yeah, when you grow wiser and smarter there is always letting go of ego involved. But only to a certain extent. We do not throw away our whole reality at once. Just the parts that are not usuful for our current environment. The most experienced of all is always reafy to throw his ego away, constantly receiving new ego's untill he find the best one.

 

Funny thing is, my ego has told me that I know nothing since the beginning. I've not touched this part of my self since my childhood discovery of astronomy, physics and philosophy. It was infact the only piece of little ego I had. For the rest? I never had an opinion and still today my opinions remain vague compared that of others.

[Otis]

Steve and Otis - I am totally in awe of both of you at this moment. Maybe even forever, I'm not sure. Those are two of the best posts I've ever read.

 

The incredible knowledge and power that comes with totally taking responsibility for your own life. The knowledge that we have indeed, at some level, created this for ourselves. That we and only we have the power to change it.

 

To know that if we are victimized over and over it's because we need, at some very deep level, to be a victim. To stop blaming everything and everybody else for what happens to us. To realize that we are indeed the creator of sorts; if we are creating lack in our lives over and over, it's because our souls require inner knowledge of lack before the opposite can be realized. To fully know that we are our own worst enemies. That the reason it's so darn hard to heal ourselves if because it's so darn hard to love ourselves.

 

To be able to admit that we are wrong.

 

To cease to fear death, from which all other fears rise.

Thanks for the good words, Barb!

 

Absolutely agreed about the choice of being a victim. I've definitely fallen prey to that temptation, myself. No growth ever came out of it, just a sense of righteousness.

 

And likewise with the question of loving myself. I had some idea that I was supposed to love the rest of the world, but when asked whether I should love myself, that was out of the question. No, somehow, I was supposed to stay angry at myself, which made me more holy somehow. But of course, it just made me stuck.

[Otis]

When I think about about someone getting angry at a person who throws the finger at you I suspect that he has no identity, no clear boundary, and thus no ego. The ego to me is the believes of a person, his preferences, his reality.

My shorthand definition of ego is: it's the constellation of my habits, including the habits of consciousness. Not only is it what I believe, but it's how I perceive, and how I'm likely to react.

 

So a child, not having a mature ego, is vulnerable to outside persons pushing his/her buttons.

Maybe it's a word choice, but I think that "button pushing" is something you do to an ego. Other than physical threat, which is hard-wired into most species, most of our "buttons" are just habit, conditioned responses. So those buttons are part of the ego.

 

If ego=habit, then the ego is more than conscious processing; it's also all the base-level habits, like distinguishing threats, beauty, importance, etc. in our perception.

 

The mother gets angry, he gets sad. Because the child is not an individual, he is boundless, the parents form his boundaries for him. Then when hes grown up, he starts to reject and say no to his parents.

LOL! He start to reject and say no to his parents at around 3 months of age! The terrible twos, in particular, are all about rejection.

 

That's why that age is so important in ego formation. Do the parents fight the kid, and force him to be obedient? Or do they simply not reward the bad behavior, and focus on encouraging the child with "yes's" rather than "no's"? Do they make reality larger, or smaller?

 

He then meets the love of his life. He throws it all away, becomes egoless, loathing to be limited by boundaries and limits, like a child. He or she discovers that there is nothing bigger of a love killer then limits, rules, intellectual ideas, structure, ego. He/she throws ego away, but will feel drained and feel lacks in his life.

I was with you up until the end part. Yes, I think that falling in love is indeed one of the times in which our biology tends to take over, and our ego tends to soften, at least for a while. I don't think that's the "drained" part, though; I think that's the flush of new love, when it's easy to go beyond one's self, to be a hero for awhile.

 

But after some time of living beyond himself, the lover tends to tire, to return to his old habits. He starts seeing flaws, and he starts displaying his own limitations. This is not a result of egolessness, but that of the gravitational pull of ego, pulling the lover back into his self.

 

People become one, they stick to each other like gum and never feel they have personal time. They are no longer individuals... The other person becomes their half. In the end one dumps the other and walks away with all the resources of time, happiness, and freedom. One has to loose eventually.

I know that this sounds like egolessness, and it is something of a de-individuation, but I think it's something a little different.

 

In relationship, if I can only find myself in the unit, then I am less of who I am. If I surrender ego, I am more of who I am, because I have let go of my boundaries of what's possible for me. Going beyond the "no's" I learned as a child.

 

Surrender of ego does not mean: not being me. It just means: no longer needing to be right or to defend opinions. It means: willingness for other ways of being to be equally valid. It means seeing the world fresh within each moment, taking nothing for granted.

 

How about love, yet agreeing to disagree sometimes. Agreeing to be individuals and trust the partnership, trust the ego to not cheat and to return to love at the end of the day. Isn't that much more mature, isn't that how the most succesful and happy long lasting marriages have gone about doing their bussiness?

Yes! I think that is the way to a successful relationship. But that takes less ego, and more love, to allow the other person to be right, as well, to recognize that another viewpoint can be every bit as valid as my own. Surrendering my ego is not necessarily losing my viewpoint, because I'm still here, and I still have a history. It just means letting go of the importance of my viewpoint, the need for it to be the right one.

 

The problems I hear you defining are not from surrender of ego, but from inability to stay true to one's self, while simultaneously being in balance with the partner. That's a tricky balancing act, another dynamic surfing ride.

 

That is the secret to improv partner dancing, as well. Say yes to the relationship, as much as possible, but also stay true to my own system. IME, it is the meeting point between the two authentic partners, that caring listening connection beyond words, that makes the dance/love connection possible, even effortless.

[Everything]

My shorthand definition of ego is: it's the constellation of...

 

...that caring listening connection beyond words, that makes the dance/love connection possible, even effortless.

I've noticed that your believes form your reality, your boundaries filter your reality, attracts similar concepts only when people are emotionally attached to them. Only then do people not have a willingness to let go certain unuseful parts of there ego. For example, I'm ugly, I dance at a party, everyone jeers, now I'm even more ugly and I suck at dancing. Why did that happen? Egolessness when it comes to dancing at a party. A mature person would have danced enough to know that jeering means no more to him then jeering and not say anything about his dancing skills nor his future mastery of dancing. That is how a solid ego stops people from pishing your buttons. It is not only true, but these kind of egos protect you need them too. They open up, when it is safe to do so. Do you mean something like that when you talk about ego and egolessness?

 

The ultimate wisdom is that of a turtle. He has a thick shell, can stay in defence a long time, but he also comes out. He doesn't throw away his entire shell does he? I mean a hero would do that because a hero has no identity(masked), no bounds(superpower fantasies), no ego at all. The hero is what brings is into trouble, we get rejected by the environmet like a parent saying no to his child and we thus form boundaries. If parents say yes, we do not form boundaries and become dependant on them. So sure boundaries are formed early on, but the completion begins in puberty where tje child hets confused, feels vulnerable and the need to explore further then he always has. This is good, at these times we need to be a hero and go to the edge to explore our limits. This is the forming of a solid edge, identity, believes, knowledge of ones own limits, ego.

 

But I'm not sure if you agree with the turtle concept on ego and egolessness. So lets say our ego is a wall, egolessness is a lack of wall, the ability to surrender your ego is having doors installed at this wall, with the door knob on the inside, for you to control. You open the door, give and receive. , explore new limita, stretching your bounds.

 

When you talk about the lover temperament, do you see it as a bad thing that he starts to put limits on his sensual experiences. And do you think it is bad for to hero to descover that he has limits aswell?

 

Also, i said agree to disagree in a relationship. You respond that it is actually letting go of the ego that allows you to do this? That one confuses me... You said to let go of the importance of your own opinion, not having to be right. But that sounds like you agree with the other person, and not disagree. I'm talking about agreeing to DISAGREE. You do not let go of your own opinions, you agree that you disagree for now and not make disagreement a big deal like a child would do.

 

For example: when Dr. Wayne Dyer tals in his speeches, he has a way of surrendering your ego to open you up to all of his ideas. It is hypnotizing, great speeches. What happens in the end? I feel confident to do the impossible, like jumping out of a window or from a cliff and expect to fly. Don't we need the ego to tell us that we can't actually fly? Why get rid of the useful parts aswell?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Don't we need the ego to tell us that we can't actually fly?

 

Yes Dear!

 

[Everything]

Yes Dear!

 

Well... Next time someone tells me to surender my ego I'll just suggest we jump out of a window together. If he refuses, I'll say like, your ego is in the way, coming trough!

[Marblehead]

Well... Next time someone tells me to surender my ego I'll just suggest we jump out of a window together. If he refuses, I'll say like, your ego is in the way, coming trough!

 

Hehehe. That's the spirit!!!

[Birch]

Yes Dear!

 

 

Well, see, Mr MH, I have to question this one :-)

Your whole self knows that you can't fly (given you're not a flying form) so where on earth would any desire to fly come from in the first place? Except from something that is not your whole self. So even considering this flying thing in order to discount it is a tricky play from something other than your whole self IMO.

 

BTW, I'm not in favour of ego-destruction, rather integration and understanding it in relation to whole you. Hence my bias against mind-yoga only and my bias for real-life meat-space actions combined with mindfulness. But lets have some fun too :-)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I've noticed that your believes form your reality, your boundaries filter your reality, attracts similar concepts only when people are emotionally attached to them. Only then do people not have a willingness to let go certain unuseful parts of there ego. For example, I'm ugly, I dance at a party, everyone jeers, now I'm even more ugly and I suck at dancing. Why did that happen? Egolessness when it comes to dancing at a party. A mature person would have danced enough to know that jeering means no more to him then jeering and not say anything about his dancing skills nor his future mastery of dancing. That is how a solid ego stops people from pishing your buttons. It is not only true, but these kind of egos protect you need them too. They open up, when it is safe to do so. Do you mean something like that when you talk about ego and egolessness?

 

The ultimate wisdom is that of a turtle. He has a thick shell, can stay in defence a long time, but he also comes out. He doesn't throw away his entire shell does he? I mean a hero would do that because a hero has no identity(masked), no bounds(superpower fantasies), no ego at all. The hero is what brings is into trouble, we get rejected by the environmet like a parent saying no to his child and we thus form boundaries. If parents say yes, we do not form boundaries and become dependant on them. So sure boundaries are formed early on, but the completion begins in puberty where tje child hets confused, feels vulnerable and the need to explore further then he always has. This is good, at these times we need to be a hero and go to the edge to explore our limits. This is the forming of a solid edge, identity, believes, knowledge of ones own limits, ego.

 

But I'm not sure if you agree with the turtle concept on ego and egolessness. So lets say our ego is a wall, egolessness is a lack of wall, the ability to surrender your ego is having doors installed at this wall, with the door knob on the inside, for you to control. You open the door, give and receive. , explore new limita, stretching your bounds.

 

When you talk about the lover temperament, do you see it as a bad thing that he starts to put limits on his sensual experiences. And do you think it is bad for to hero to descover that he has limits aswell?

 

Also, i said agree to disagree in a relationship. You respond that it is actually letting go of the ego that allows you to do this? That one confuses me... You said to let go of the importance of your own opinion, not having to be right. But that sounds like you agree with the other person, and not disagree. I'm talking about agreeing to DISAGREE. You do not let go of your own opinions, you agree that you disagree for now and not make disagreement a big deal like a child would do.

 

For example: when Dr. Wayne Dyer tals in his speeches, he has a way of surrendering your ego to open you up to all of his ideas. It is hypnotizing, great speeches. What happens in the end? I feel confident to do the impossible, like jumping out of a window or from a cliff and expect to fly. Don't we need the ego to tell us that we can't actually fly? Why get rid of the useful parts aswell?

 

Very interesting thread guys. Cutting through the overgrowth quite a bit here..

 

Everything, I would add here that there seems to be a bit of a common misunderstanding of the differences between ego and super-ego. Most writers, translators, and everyone else usually uses the word ego for both the ego and the super-ego. A helpful way to look at it is, again, with the I Ching trigrams for water and fire. Water is one solid yang line surrounded by two broken yin lines, while fire is one broken yin line surrounded by two solid yang lines.

 

The ego (also called the true self) is like the water trigram. The outside is flexible, while the center does not change. When the ego is sure of itself, it can be flexible on the outside without being disturbed. It does not care what people think of it, and will let people have wrongly negative views of them without being disturbed at the center.

 

A mature person would have danced enough to know that jeering means no more to him then jeering and not say anything about his dancing skills nor his future mastery of dancing. That is how a solid ego stops people from pishing your buttons. It is not only true, but these kind of egos protect you need them too.

 

 

When the center is weak, the super-ego tries to protect it with all the walls and turtle shells. The problem with this is that if the true ego is not strong, it can come to identify with the machinations and fantasies of the super-ego, creating an "ego ideal" which it may never rest in trying to maintain since it is not in touch with the true ego.

 

I think this is why being in love with someone can be so liberating -- because the two people love each other for who they really are, and so the super-ego doesn't have to dance any more. The external world might try to pin it's projections on the person, but the ego just moves around it like water since the center is now solid and doesn't need the super-ego (2 outer lines) to keep it together. In fact, the super-ego is dropped so that the ego is free flowing.

 

If the ego becomes weak, possibly from atrophy due to lack of expression or determination ie. not moving along when the false gets in the way, then the super-ego will have to protect it, but it is better for the ego to live with honesty and integrity so that the it does not have to become rigid externally. This is why "selflessness" (which is not really selflessness, but surrendering of the superficial/exterior super-ego self) is stronger, because it allows the true self to be itself, though it may have to continue running downstream so that the false doesn't trap it. This correllates with water in nature too, which becomes undrinkable when it's stuck, but fresh and healthy when it avoids obstructions and doesn't get caught in a basin.

 

One manifestation of this that you might notice is that people who are very very successful will often seem very humble (with very notable exceptions of course) and not trying to prove anything. Their center has been allowed to solidify, and so they are happier to be humble and unassuming than engage in unnecessary identity battles. The other side of this are the people who's center has never been strong and their success is all fodder for the super-ego, in which case they don't reflect this type of person.

[Marblehead]

Well, see, Mr MH, I have to question this one :-)

Your whole self knows that you can't fly (given you're not a flying form) so where on earth would any desire to fly come from in the first place? Except from something that is not your whole self. So even considering this flying thing in order to discount it is a tricky play from something other than your whole self IMO.

 

BTW, I'm not in favour of ego-destruction, rather integration and understanding it in relation to whole you. Hence my bias against mind-yoga only and my bias for real-life meat-space actions combined with mindfulness. But lets have some fun too :-)

 

Hey! It wasn't me who wanted to fly; it was Everything. Hehehe.

 

Most of us don't try flying because there is that ego that says, "If you try something so stupid you are really going to screw yourself up badly." That's the ego seeking survival.

 

But, mind altering drugs, as well as extreme illusions and delusions, can cause us to think that we can do the impossible. Even some belief systems lead to such thoughts. Consider the snake handlers in the Deep South of the US.

 

Strange how this thread drifted to the subject of ego. Yes, I know you are interested in Buddhism but I am sure you are in no way ready to give up your ego. That's good.

 

I agree that understanding our ego is the first step toward having a well-balanced ego - not too big but yet strong enough to protect ourselves from harm.

 

You know I try to have fun here. And I try to cause others to laugh or at least smile whenever I can.

[Birch]

Hey! It wasn't me who wanted to fly; it was Everything. Hehehe.

 

Most of us don't try flying because there is that ego that says, "If you try something so stupid you are really going to screw yourself up badly." That's the ego seeking survival.

 

But, mind altering drugs, as well as extreme illusions and delusions, can cause us to think that we can do the impossible. Even some belief systems lead to such thoughts. Consider the snake handlers in the Deep South of the US.

 

Strange how this thread drifted to the subject of ego. Yes, I know you are interested in Buddhism but I am sure you are in no way ready to give up your ego. That's good.

 

I agree that understanding our ego is the first step toward having a well-balanced ego - not too big but yet strong enough to protect ourselves from harm.

 

You know I try to have fun here. And I try to cause others to laugh or at least smile whenever I can.

 

Good post Mr MH. Snake people in South DKTA? Show me!

 

"I know you are interested in Buddhism" Yes, like a flower is interested in the composition of weedkiller :-) Although I can't say whether it's the religion itself that I have at issue or the people who speak for it and lead others (badly?). Ultimately, one leads oneself, although I've had a few run-ins with some buddhists of various stripes in dreams. But that's a whole n'other thread :-)

[zerostao]

Good post Mr MH. Snake people in South DKTA? Show me!

 

 

well you asked for it

[Otis]

I've noticed that your believes form your reality, your boundaries filter your reality, attracts similar concepts only when people are emotionally attached to them. Only then do people not have a willingness to let go certain unuseful parts of there ego. For example, I'm ugly, I dance at a party, everyone jeers, now I'm even more ugly and I suck at dancing. Why did that happen? Egolessness when it comes to dancing at a party. A mature person would have danced enough to know that jeering means no more to him then jeering and not say anything about his dancing skills nor his future mastery of dancing. That is how a solid ego stops people from pishing your buttons. It is not only true, but these kind of egos protect you need them too. They open up, when it is safe to do so. Do you mean something like that when you talk about ego and egolessness?

 

The ultimate wisdom is that of a turtle. He has a thick shell, can stay in defence a long time, but he also comes out. He doesn't throw away his entire shell does he? I mean a hero would do that because a hero has no identity(masked), no bounds(superpower fantasies), no ego at all. The hero is what brings is into trouble, we get rejected by the environmet like a parent saying no to his child and we thus form boundaries. If parents say yes, we do not form boundaries and become dependant on them. So sure boundaries are formed early on, but the completion begins in puberty where tje child hets confused, feels vulnerable and the need to explore further then he always has. This is good, at these times we need to be a hero and go to the edge to explore our limits. This is the forming of a solid edge, identity, believes, knowledge of ones own limits, ego.

 

But I'm not sure if you agree with the turtle concept on ego and egolessness. So lets say our ego is a wall, egolessness is a lack of wall, the ability to surrender your ego is having doors installed at this wall, with the door knob on the inside, for you to control. You open the door, give and receive. , explore new limita, stretching your bounds.

 

When you talk about the lover temperament, do you see it as a bad thing that he starts to put limits on his sensual experiences. And do you think it is bad for to hero to descover that he has limits aswell?

 

Also, i said agree to disagree in a relationship. You respond that it is actually letting go of the ego that allows you to do this? That one confuses me... You said to let go of the importance of your own opinion, not having to be right. But that sounds like you agree with the other person, and not disagree. I'm talking about agreeing to DISAGREE. You do not let go of your own opinions, you agree that you disagree for now and not make disagreement a big deal like a child would do.

 

For example: when Dr. Wayne Dyer tals in his speeches, he has a way of surrendering your ego to open you up to all of his ideas. It is hypnotizing, great speeches. What happens in the end? I feel confident to do the impossible, like jumping out of a window or from a cliff and expect to fly. Don't we need the ego to tell us that we can't actually fly? Why get rid of the useful parts aswell?

I agree that the ego has its uses, but I think that it can be like training wheels, something that is best discarded, in order to be free as a bike rider.

 

From the perspective of someone riding with training wheels, he could make the same argument you're making: "if I get rid of these things, I'll just crash and go to the hospital, and then I'll never want to ride again."

 

But from the perspective of someone (the sage) who has learned to ride in balance, without relying on the crutch of training wheels: "I thought I couldn't be free of those things, until I finally took them off. The beginning of the ride was scary and I even got a little hurt, but it was worth it, because learning balance has freed me up, to go exploring the world on my bicycle.

 

I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they just try to ditch their ego all at once, and live without. I certainly don't know how to do that, myself.

 

But I very much recommend that we spend our lives actively challenging ourselves, discarding unnecessary dependencies. And that we seek balance, not just to get good at life, but to free ourselves from ourselves. IME, most of the "shell" that I have created does not protect me from real harm, because real harm is rarely what I face. Most of what I face is just ego harm: embarrassment, rejection, being put down, etc. I don't need to avoid these things; they're just like

: all alarm and no injury.

 

Physical risk is the realm of fear that I've been facing the most, over the last few years. I've

in my late 30s/early 40s, learned to accept impact without taking offense at it, tested my balance and calm in ways that seem risky, etc. My experience in this speaks very loudly to me, that my habits/ego were not only giving me false positives about what was risky, but that the panic that solidifies my habit, actually blinds me and increases risk. So the least risky path, I've found, is not one of safety and security, but one of learning balance, calm and joyful adventure, through progressively expanding my boundaries of what's possible.

 

No, I don't try to fly (although I don't see any harm in trying, as long as I start from the ground floor). But I do continue to step forward,

, to learn how to be free of my shell, my guardedness and shyness.

 

(And yes, the videos in the links are me, learning to face my alarms, my panic, by stepping gradually into the unknown).

[Everything]

Hey! It wasn't me who wanted to fly; it was Everything. Hehehe.

 

Most of us don't try flying because there is that ego that says, "If you try something so stupid you are really going to screw yourself up badly." That's the ego seeking survival.

 

But, mind altering drugs, as well as extreme illusions and delusions, can cause us to think that we can do the impossible. Even some belief systems lead to such thoughts. Consider the snake handlers in the Deep South of the US.

 

Strange how this thread drifted to the subject of ego. Yes, I know you are interested in Buddhism but I am sure you are in no way ready to give up your ego. That's good.

 

I agree that understanding our ego is the first step toward having a well-balanced ego - not too big but yet strong enough to protect ourselves from harm.

 

You know I try to have fun here. And I try to cause others to laugh or at least smile whenever I can.

I apreciate that.

 

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm just trying to gain a deeper understanding of this whole ego concepts, cause it seems to be of big influence in my life. I also respect Otis very much for he seems very spontanious, dynamic and confident. If not naturally this way, Otis, you certainly do a good job at seeming that way.

 

It is also hard for everyone uses the same words in diffrent manners, so I try to give as many symbols for each concept as possible. Like ego=identity=boundaries=limits=extent of ownership and power, etc. For example, I understandnthe concept of having a small but solid ego or replacing ego's by surrendering useless ego's, but total and complete egolessness seems like borderline patients to me.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything