TTC 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder?

[Everything]

Here is an interesting commentary on the chapter that might be of help:

 

http://www.centertao.org/tao-te-ching/carl/chapter-49/

Holy cow!!! Is Tao Te Ching so vague? I think we can extract atleast 5 milion interpretations from this text alone then...

 

I didn't understand a thing.

 

Perhaps he is suggesting that we extract the emotions that come with TTC and throw the ideas away? For example, the sage does not treat bad people good all the time, for it depends on your definition of what good is. So we have to throw the ideas away alltogether because every word is relative and thus meaningless on its own. What matters is the emotions that we feel during the reading of a text. Is that what is being communicated?

 

Being good to bad and trusting the untrustworthy sounds like a nice thing so we should always feel nice? Or something like that?

 

If thas the case then I think I can change the title of 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder to "49: the sage always feels nice and empathises with those around him."

Edited July 10, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

Hello Everything,

 

I'm sure plenty of people have already given you answers, but I thought I'd give you my understanding of this passage. What this passage talks about is Te, or High Virtue. The reason that the sage can be kind to the unkind and trust the untrustworthy is because of Te. Whoever translated this passage left out Te, or virtue, in the translation, thus you miss the overall meaning. I would recommend finding a different translation to read.

 

As far as Te goes, I'm sure after all the various threads regarding Te and Virture we've had, you already have a good understanding of what that is.

 

Aaron

So te is something that the sage has accumulated and allows him to be be generous? Like power, freedom, happiness or is it something else perhaps? I noticed how Alot of grandparents have nothing to do with there lifes but give give and give. Because they've so much to give away. So much joy to give away, so much power and freedom to give away. It is they who spoil the kids.

 

So this being kind to unkind and trusting he untrustworthy is only to be done by the sage because of his excess Te? Or something? So it is not to be taken as example besides the accumulation of Te, whatever that might be, right? I really don't understand Te... ^^

 

What about the taking other peoples mind? Marblehead posted a link there which had a very complex take on that. Something about muddled mind and thus calm. Or trying to muddle the mind of the empire, but the empires mind is actually his mind or something? I didn't get it at all.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Holy cow!!! Is Tao Te Ching so vague? I think we can extract atleast 5 milion interpretations from this text alone then...

 

I didn't understand a thing.

 

Perhaps he is suggesting that we extract the emotions that come with TTC and throw the ideas away? For example, the sage does not treat bad people good all the time, for it depends on your definition of what good is. So we have to throw the ideas away alltogether because every word is relative and thus meaningless on its own. What matters is the emotions that we feel during the reading of a text. Is that what is being communicated?

 

Being good to bad and trusting the untrustworthy sounds like a nice thing so we should always feel nice? Or something like that?

 

If thas the case then I think I can change the title of 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder to "49: the sage always feels nice and empathises with those around him."

 

Hi Everything,

 

Funny. You are doing just fine though. Don't take life too seriously though, it lasts for only a short time.

 

Actually, and in all honesty I, pretty much feel the same way you do concerning this chapter. Of course, I have never claimed to be a Taoist Sage or a Buddha.

 

I do not let non-good people into my life. There is no room for them.

 

I do not trust untrustful people. I prefer either having someone I can place my trust in or just face the fact that I must rely on myself.

 

I do have my opinions - I do not lightly accept the opinions of others. Just look at some of my responses to threads Immortal has started!

 

I do have my values of good/bad and trustworthy/untrustworthy.

 

But, if we look a little deeper we see the chapter saying that the Sage is good to the not-good. This is bacause s/he is like Tao and makes no judgement calls. S/he is compassionate to all.

 

Trust, on the other hand, can be looked at a little differently. The Sage trusts the the untrustful will be untrustful (because it is their nature) and therefore would only trust that s/he will be untrustful.

 

We must not confuse reality with idealism. Idealism suggests that everyone will do the right thing. Reality suggests that everyone will do what is best for their own interests.

 

The Sage has no set mind because s/he does not give a shit. I mean, the Sage realizes that whatever is going to happen is going to happen so there is no need to get shook up about anything.

 

However, this does not mean that we try to approach a tiger in the wild and make friends with it. We realize that a hungry tiger will rather eat us than to be friends with us.

 

Same goes for bad people. We stay away from bad people; and we don't put trust in those who have proven to be untrustworthy.

[ChiDragon]

1. 善者吾善之。

2. 不善者吾亦善之

3. 德善。

 

Those whom are kind, I kind to them.

Those whom are not kind, I kind to them too.

It is the virtue of kindness.

 

Annotation:

Whatever the people are kind to you or not but you are kind to them regardless. The initial kindness was from your heart is what made you a virtuous person. This is called the virtue(te) of kindness from you.

 

1. 信者吾信之。

2. 不信者吾亦信之、

3. 德信。

 

1. Those whom are trustworthy, I trust them.

2. Those whom are not trustworthy, I trust them too.

3. It is the virtue of trust.

 

Annotation:

Whatever the people are with trusting or not but you are place a trust on them regardless. The initial trust was from your heart is what made you a virtuous person. This is called the virtue(te) of trust from you.

 

In both scenarios, the virtue was the good intention from you regardless of the intention from others. Thus that is what virtue or te was all about...!!!

[steve]

No dude, I don't mind trying to understand. Its not a struggle in my eyes. I love challenging my believes and discussing such deep ideas.

 

Sonyou guys are saying to remove your boundary for it is the cause of suffering. Identity and boundaries are one and the same thing to me. Your identity is what limits you and forms your reality, your lens. I find it hard to believe that someone can live without a boundary or identity. Only a baby has no ego because a baby is not yet mature enough to decide. Making decision mean growth and exploring boundaries, getting a more solid boundary and more clear identity over time as we mature. A child depends on the identity of its mother or father, thus a child is boundless. How can a boundless person nurture? It seems that boundless persons get nurtured. Plus the boundless hero dies because he has not explored his boundary or limit and reborns as a warrior with an clear identity and limits in mythological stories. The hero story ends always when he gets the gitl because he has no identity and thus can not relate to the girl as a person.

 

Its not that I disapprove of the concept of egoless, I just don't understand the concept. How can one be egoless? Do we have to become a baby? Believe in nothing? Not hold dear to any ideas Or thougths? Isn't that faithless?

You live with and without the boundary. With and without the identity.

You know the identity is an illusion and yet it is what you are given in this life to experience yourself with so you nurture and relish it.

 

There is no understanding of egoless-ness. It is an experience. It does not exclude the experience of the ego.

They are yin and yang to one another. It does help to become child-like. Look at everything as if you've never seen it before.

Revel in the beauty of nature, including humanity.

Not holding on to any idea or any thought is the definition of faith, it is the furthest thing from faithless.

 

Having belief is clinging to an explanation for something that cannot be explained.

Having faith is letting go of all images and beliefs and ideas, and having complete confidence that whatever remains is truth.

 

Be patient, this sort of thing takes years to digest and embody.

It is not just about intellectual or analytical understanding.

It is much slower than that although when it happens, it is instantaneous.

[Everything]

Annotation:

Whatever the people are kind to you or not but you are kind to them regardless. The initial kindness was from your heart is what made you a virtuous person. This is called the virtue(te) of kindness from you.

 

1. 信者吾信之。

2. 不信者吾亦信之、

3. 德信。

 

1. Those whom are trustworthy, I trust them.

2. Those whom are not trustworthy, I trust them too.

3. It is the virtue of trust.

 

Annotation:

Whatever the people are with trusting or not but you are place a trust on them regardless. The initial trust was from your heart is what made you a virtuous person. This is called the virtue(te) of trust from you.

 

In both scenarios, the virtue was the good intention from you regardless of the intention from others. Thus that is what virtue or te was all about...!!!

But how is trusting the untrustworthy a good thing? It is childish to say that treating bad with good is good... You encourage destructive and self-sabotaging behaviour from others... It is not good, it is boundless, innocent, immature and destined for death. In a way you can say it is good to learn from bad mistakes, but to think that this is good is just delusioned.

 

The very virtue of trust comes from your clear identity, knowledge of ones own boundaries and limits. If a man does not life from a place of authenticity it means he does not live according to his own personal limits. He cannot be trusted and does not have the virtue of trust... You smack a guy in the face, he says "I love you " that means he cannot be trusted because he is boundless, immature, and destined to die.

 

This is how I see it, so you know where i'm at. How did you come about that trusting the untrustworthy is a good thing and gives you virtue or something?

[Everything]

You live with and without the boundary. With and without the identity.

You know the identity is an illusion and yet it is what you are given in this life to experience yourself with so you nurture and relish it.

 

There is no understanding of egoless-ness. It is an experience. It does not exclude the experience of the ego.

They are yin and yang to one another. It does help to become child-like. Look at everything as if you've never seen it before.

Revel in the beauty of nature, including humanity.

Not holding on to any idea or any thought is the definition of faith, it is the furthest thing from faithless.

 

Having belief is clinging to an explanation for something that cannot be explained.

Having faith is letting go of all images and beliefs and ideas, and having complete confidence that whatever remains is truth.

 

Be patient, this sort of thing takes years to digest and embody.

It is not just about intellectual or analytical understanding.

It is much slower than that although when it happens, it is instantaneous.

That was my initial conclusion. That relative to the context, we are alot to be boundless. During love for example. The passion does not flow if we set out a clear identity and put limits to the love and passion that is allowed to flow between two persons. A good friendship has times of independence and times of codependence. Times where you become one and times where you are seperated. Wether this relation is towards yourself, the environment, or another person, it does not matter.

 

I find it odd that this chapter mentions the sage as being childlike, as if he is that way all the time. It is not appropriate to be childlike all the time, but sure once in a while its great. We should not be posessed by the samurai code or something. We're human afterall.

[ChiDragon]

But how is trusting the untrustworthy a good thing? It is childish to say that treating bad with good is good... You encourage destructive and self-sabotaging behaviour from others... It is not good, it is boundless, innocent, immature and destined for death. In a way you can say it is good to learn from bad mistakes, but to think that this is good is just delusioned.

 

The very virtue of trust comes from your clear identity, knowledge of ones own boundaries and limits. If a man does not life from a place of authenticity it means he does not live according to his own personal limits. He cannot be trusted and does not have the virtue of trust... You smack a guy in the face, he says "I love you " that means he cannot be trusted because he is boundless, immature, and destined to die.

 

This is how I see it, so you know where i'm at. How did you come about that trusting the untrustworthy is a good thing and gives you virtue or something?

 

I know this is something hard to accept. Let me put it this way. This is one of the dumbest Chinese philosophies which always look at the good side rather than the bad. In this case, the good side is the one that has a good heart for treating a bad guy good. The emphasis is on the good guy's heart and ignored the rest of the bad guys.

Edited July 10, 2011 by ChiDragon

[manitou]

Its not that I disapprove of the concept of egoless, I just don't understand the concept. How can one be egoless? Do we have to become a baby? Believe in nothing? Not hold dear to any ideas Or thougths? Isn't that faithless?

 

Incredible as it seems, that seems to be what happens. The Dalai Lama has the countenance of a child, if you look into his transparency. I think the egolessness ultimately results in an awareness of I Know Nothing.

[steve]

That was my initial conclusion. That relative to the context, we are alot to be boundless. During love for example. The passion does not flow if we set out a clear identity and put limits to the love and passion that is allowed to flow between two persons. A good friendship has times of independence and times of codependence. Times where you become one and times where you are seperated. Wether this relation is towards yourself, the environment, or another person, it does not matter.

 

I find it odd that this chapter mentions the sage as being childlike, as if he is that way all the time. It is not appropriate to be childlike all the time, but sure once in a while its great. We should not be posessed by the samurai code or something. We're human afterall.

There is a difference between being childlike and childish.

Childlike is to maintain the wonder and curiosity of the young. It does not mean to give up the wisdom and experience of maturity.

Being childish is more along the lines of immaturity and irresponsibility.

One of the most fundamental characteristics of the Daoist sage is to be childlike, as such she is closer to the Dao.

It is our conditioning and images that takes us away from our nature.

[Everything]

[Everything]

There is a difference between being childlike and childish.

Childlike is to maintain the wonder and curiosity of the young. It does not mean to give up the wisdom and experience of maturity.

Being childish is more along the lines of immaturity and irresponsibility.

One of the most fundamental characteristics of the Daoist sage is to be childlike, as such she is closer to the Dao.

It is our conditioning and images that takes us away from our nature.

Don't you think that we should be childlike only on certain occasions and not be childlike on other occasions? For example, sharing of happiness should be done childlike. From the heart, without the ego, innocent, loving, vulnerable. I do not think that we should be this way forever, on for certain people who are naturally this way, I believe they should even move away from such childish behaviour and grow mature first before returning to love again. A relationship with one self and others is not only about love and egolessness, there is also commitment and partnership.

 

Too much love and soon lies will surface. Why? Because of boundlessness... Lies are fake identities to make us believe that we still have our own identity and ego, while in fact you have become the half of the other person. You have remained childlike so long that you have become a child... I see that happen to so many people, they see it as a good thing, afraid that the passion will be sucked out of their life they remain a child. Afraid of responsibility, afraid to explore there true self, to touch the bounds of their being. You can only remain a child for so long. But the ability to be childlike is a good thing, just don't make it the core of your being. Don't you think so?

[Marblehead]

 

I noticed that idealistic people tend to be destructive towards the self and realistic people tend to be destructive towards the environment. I think both are imperfect and disharmony.

 

So how about finding the harmony between the two. We hold our ideals as goals in our life but yet we are realistic regarding our interaction with others. That way we have not given up on those who are bad and untrustworthy but yet we are aware of what might happen if we allow ourself to get to close to them.

 

The Sage's ideals are good ones. But not always practical. Beware the tigers in the woods!

[Marblehead]

Don't you think that we should be childlike only on certain occasions and not be childlike on other occasions?

 

Yes, we should know when it is safe to let our child out to play. It's not always play-time. Just as we can't keep dancing all day and all night. Timing and location.

[Everything]

So how about finding the harmony between the two. We hold our ideals as goals in our life but yet we are realistic regarding our interaction with others. That way we have not given up on those who are bad and untrustworthy but yet we are aware of what might happen if we allow ourself to get to close to them.

 

The Sage's ideals are good ones. But not always practical. Beware the tigers in the woods!

Yeah i think that is excellent advice. For it is advice that follows you to places where words and ideas are not welcome. Welcome to the jungle!

[steve]

Don't you think that we should be childlike only on certain occasions and not be childlike on other occasions? For example, sharing of happiness should be done childlike. From the heart, without the ego, innocent, loving, vulnerable. I do not think that we should be this way forever, on for certain people who are naturally this way, I believe they should even move away from such childish behaviour and grow mature first before returning to love again. A relationship with one self and others is not only about love and egolessness, there is also commitment and partnership.

 

Too much love and soon lies will surface. Why? Because of boundlessness... Lies are fake identities to make us believe that we still have our own identity and ego, while in fact you have become the half of the other person. You have remained childlike so long that you have become a child... I see that happen to so many people, they see it as a good thing, afraid that the passion will be sucked out of their life they remain a child. Afraid of responsibility, afraid to explore there true self, to touch the bounds of their being. You can only remain a child for so long. But the ability to be childlike is a good thing, just don't make it the core of your being. Don't you think so?

I agree with you. I wonder if it is also possible to be both - can we look at the world as fresh and interesting and yet bring our wisdom, experience, and practicality to the situation whenever necessary? I don't think it's either/or. I think it is finding the balance of both and being skillful in this.

Still - your experiences with "love" and the way I'm using that word are different so discussions regarding relationship and love are tricky.

[Everything]

Yes, we should know when it is safe to let our child out to play. It's not always play-time. Just as we can't keep dancing all day and all night. Timing and location.

Haha it certainly can be done, but its exhausting. In the end I love to return to tranquility and just enjoy the remaining sensation of joy in my heart and watch it fade away like the dripping water at cave entrances after the raining has ended. I have this feeling that after this egolessness and a return to ego at the end of the day I have done here what I came for. The day can end in peace and I'm ready to let go and end my day in memory of this great experience and become reborn into the new day. It really does feel like you lived numerous lives when you become egoless on a daily basis. The experiences cann be that rich, for good and worse.

 

This childishness is really an exploration of your self in infinite varieties of experiences. I'm glad to hear that we must not become possessed by this lover temperament and channel it efficiently. It breathes life and meaning to all your realities. We must take care of our inner baby aswell and not have it become an addict. So that he will push you into crazy experiences again the next day.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Everything

[Birch]

I agree with you. I wonder if it is also possible to be both - can we look at the world as fresh and interesting and yet bring our wisdom, experience, and practicality to the situation whenever necessary? I don't think it's either/or. I think it is finding the balance of both and being skillful in this.

Still - your experiences with "love" and the way I'm using that word are different so discussions regarding relationship and love are tricky.

 

Well, Lao Tzu was his own mother (or father) and 'old boy' right?

So I'd shoot for a yes:-) Both are doable. Thing is IME/IMO you start out sort of backwards with this stuff then it flips and then it gets weird for a while and then it becomes - um, normal, I think. So you don't remember what backwards felt like.

[Otis]

So if someone asks me, what food do you like, I respond with I don't know, right? No ego, no identity, no self, no boundaries = borderline disorder? So I know what you mean with becoming boundless and seeing the whole world as me because there is no boundary between me and the world. But this is how an drug addict sees the world. How can it be a good thing not to seperate your self from drugs? Its just an example, drugs is bad m'kay...

I think you're hitting on something important here.

 

The hard-core drug addict has tunnel vision. He sees nothing beyond his next hit. Family and friends are ignored, as if they're in the periphery. That clearly is not a path of freedom.

 

But the surrendered ego does not have to have tunnel vision. Awareness and centering practice are about staying clear and calm, open and unhurried. Willingness to not make choices doesn't have to be a "turning off", but can be a "turning on" to awareness of the present moment.

 

The important distinction, IME, is that "I" (my ego) has to be willing to surrender, while simultaneously staying present, aware. If "I" get distracted, or "drift off" from the present moment, then I am like the addict, my "spontaneous action" just arising from habit. But if I can stay present, without feeling the need to change what's happening, then I find that the greater organism seems to make the right choices for me.

[Otis]

Yeah, I like that, for me, "I" seems to be a lot like an echo which then becomes a memory which then takes credit as the doer.

That's a great way of putting it.

[Everything]

I think you're hitting on something important here.

 

The hard-core drug addict has tunnel vision. He sees nothing beyond his next hit. Family and friends are ignored, as if they're in the periphery. That clearly is not a path of freedom.

 

But the surrendered ego does not have to have tunnel vision. Awareness and centering practice are about staying clear and calm, open and unhurried. Willingness to not make choices doesn't have to be a "turning off", but can be a "turning on" to awareness of the present moment.

 

The important distinction, IME, is that "I" (my ego) has to be willing to surrender, while simultaneously staying present, aware. If "I" get distracted, or "drift off" from the present moment, then I am like the addict, my "spontaneous action" just arising from habit. But if I can stay present, without feeling the need to change what's happening, then I find that the greater organism seems to make the right choices for me.

I know what you mean with present minded. It really makes me calm and centered, but it also feels so detached and not "connected" like the experience of egolessness you guys are descrbing. Whats up with that?

 

If anything at all, staying aware in the present moment kinda makes me tranquill, without the peoples care, simply observing the senses for what they are. Its great for calming down or relaxing, focusing, learning, growing. What about loving, connecting? Are you saying egoless by your definition means something totally diffrent from "without ego"?

Edited July 11, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Haha it certainly can be done, but its exhausting. In the end I love to return to tranquility and just enjoy the remaining sensation of joy in my heart and watch it fade away like the dripping water at cave entrances after the raining has ended. I have this feeling that after this egolessness and a return to ego at the end of the day I have done here what I came for. The day can end in peace and I'm ready to let go and end my day in memory of this great experience and become reborn into the new day. It really does feel like you lived numerous lives when you become egoless on a daily basis. The experiences cann be that rich, for good and worse.

 

This childishness is really an exploration of your self in infinite varieties of experiences. I'm glad to hear that we must not become possessed by this lover temperament and channel it efficiently. It breathes life and meaning to all your realities. We must take care of our inner baby aswell and not have it become an addict. So that he will push you into crazy experiences again the next day.

 

I have nothing to add but want to say that this is a good post.

[Marblehead]

I think you're hitting on something important here.

 

The hard-core drug addict has tunnel vision. He sees nothing beyond his next hit. Family and friends are ignored, as if they're in the periphery. That clearly is not a path of freedom.

 

But the surrendered ego does not have to have tunnel vision. Awareness and centering practice are about staying clear and calm, open and unhurried. Willingness to not make choices doesn't have to be a "turning off", but can be a "turning on" to awareness of the present moment.

 

The important distinction, IME, is that "I" (my ego) has to be willing to surrender, while simultaneously staying present, aware. If "I" get distracted, or "drift off" from the present moment, then I am like the addict, my "spontaneous action" just arising from habit. But if I can stay present, without feeling the need to change what's happening, then I find that the greater organism seems to make the right choices for me.

 

 

Nice example Otis!

[manitou]

I think the childlike wonder that the sage develops is not a thing that comes and goes. Letting our inner child out to play, as people like to say, is a different thing. In my opinion, that's when we cut loose from our adult responsibilities, etc. The sage isn't about cutting loose. He sees awe and wonder at everything, just as a child who is born with no preconceptions. He brings this sense of wonder with him wherever he goes, because he sees everything as an extension of his own humanness. He does not take things like wind, and ants, and spider webs for granted because they are things of wonder and the sage will have the time to stop and wonder at it.

As a child. Prior to conditioning from others.

[Marblehead]

As a child. Prior to conditioning from others.

 

Ah, yes, you speak of a wonderful state.

 

But can any of us attain that state in the world we live in today? Sure, I attain it on occasion. But then reality draws me back to be concerned about things. The child had no responsibilities - no concerns. I have to pay taxes and all the other duties of living in this reality.