TTC 49: the sage has borderline personality disorder?

[Everything]

I agree that the ego...

...

...(And yes, the videos in the links are me, learning to face my alarms, my panic, by stepping gradually into the unknown).

I noticed the videos some time ago, they're admiraby awesome

 

Ah, so you agree that surrenderig ego is only for replacing it by another new and better, more expanded, more useful, more constructive and wise ego?

 

Like how I learnt to swim. I was the first in my class of kids to jump in the deep, why? Because my swimming teacher punished me by throwing me into the deep without swimmig aid that we usually wear. He said "you can swim" right before he did it. I let go of my ego that day for the first time it seemed. Very scary but extremely rewarding. What was the reward? A new, more solid and more truthful and constructive ego was constructed right there, right then. "I can swim." This ego held me confident troughout all of the diving practice and I won the competitions at that age.

 

One thing though: surrendering ego is to me extremely scary, sometimes so scary that even trying to surrender will just cause the ego to reinforce itself. For example some says "I can swim!" jumps in the water and hears himself saying "no I can't swim, get out of the water! What have you done!?" and his entire mind is taken over by the ego. He will start to scream for help and soon drown himself in the whole process of struggling with his own ego. I actually saw this happen to a child, only he did not drown ofcourse.

 

So this surrendering of believes about one self or ego's is a practice that fascinates me. In lucid dreaming we can directly train it. For example, if you say "I can fly!" and nothing happens, it will become obvious that you are not able to surrender your ego. Surrendering ego also requires great awareness and focus on surrendering of an ego. For example imaginig yourself flying, or just "feeling it in your mind, so that you can accept the concept and go for it a hundred procent. But most of all. I've found that nothing kills ego more smoothly that just thinking "it is going to happen, there is no doubt about it." and instantly go for it, taking the ego by suprise. Isn't that the most effective way of expanding your boundaries, ego and comfort zone?

 

If anything at all, my fear of walking down the street as a woman is because of a lack of identity in such a situation is it not? Wihout a boundary that seperates me and other person laughing at me, I would feel vulnerable and not confident. However this very act of doing it with the right mindset constructs this new boundary that wasn't there. A new ego?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

The ego (also called the true self) is like the water trigram. The outside is flexible, while the center does not change.

Isn't the water trigram outside motionless while the center is in motion? The outside representing the mountains and rocks or something. The center the flowing water.

[Everything]

Very interesting thread guys. Cutting through the overgrowth quite a bit here..

 

Everything, I would add here that there seems to be a bit of a common misunderstanding of the differences between ego and super-ego. Most writers, translators, and everyone else usually uses the word ego for both the ego and the super-ego. A helpful way to look at it is, again, with the I Ching trigrams for water and fire. Water is one solid yang line surrounded by two broken yin lines, while fire is one broken yin line surrounded by two solid yang lines.

 

The ego (also called the true self) is like the water trigram. The outside is flexible, while the center does not change. When the ego is sure of itself, it can be flexible on the outside without being disturbed. It does not care what people think of it, and will let people have wrongly negative views of them without being disturbed at the center.

 

 

 

When the center is weak, the super-ego tries to protect it with all the walls and turtle shells. The problem with this is that if the true ego is not strong, it can come to identify with the machinations and fantasies of the super-ego, creating an "ego ideal" which it may never rest in trying to maintain since it is not in touch with the true ego.

 

I think this is why being in love with someone can be so liberating -- because the two people love each other for who they really are, and so the super-ego doesn't have to dance any more. The external world might try to pin it's projections on the person, but the ego just moves around it like water since the center is now solid and doesn't need the super-ego (2 outer lines) to keep it together. In fact, the super-ego is dropped so that the ego is free flowing.

 

If the ego becomes weak, possibly from atrophy due to lack of expression or determination ie. not moving along when the false gets in the way, then the super-ego will have to protect it, but it is better for the ego to live with honesty and integrity so that the it does not have to become rigid externally. This is why "selflessness" (which is not really selflessness, but surrendering of the superficial/exterior super-ego self) is stronger, because it allows the true self to be itself, though it may have to continue running downstream so that the false doesn't trap it. This correllates with water in nature too, which becomes undrinkable when it's stuck, but fresh and healthy when it avoids obstructions and doesn't get caught in a basin.

 

One manifestation of this that you might notice is that people who are very very successful will often seem very humble (with very notable exceptions of course) and not trying to prove anything. Their center has been allowed to solidify, and so they are happier to be humble and unassuming than engage in unnecessary identity battles. The other side of this are the people who's center has never been strong and their success is all fodder for the super-ego, in which case they don't reflect this type of person.

Thats interesting to me.

 

Are you gys suggesting that the super ego is the outside boundary, identity, protecting the inside resources that truely contains our nature like "happiness"

 

Alot of people talk about ego being bad for love and connection and sensual experiences, so that I presume that its the boundaries they're talking about. While you are suggesting that the EGO is actually the true self, the part of us that matters? The emotions?

 

So the boundaries are protecting the happiness, but the loving person is constantly happy so doesn't need a boundary or super-ego in the first place? Like no one can ruin his day because he's too happy and has abundance?

 

Or am I totally misunderstanding.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Good post Mr MH. Snake people in South DKTA? Show me!

 

"I know you are interested in Buddhism" Yes, like a flower is interested in the composition of weedkiller :-) Although I can't say whether it's the religion itself that I have at issue or the people who speak for it and lead others (badly?). Ultimately, one leads oneself, although I've had a few run-ins with some buddhists of various stripes in dreams. But that's a whole n'other thread :-)

 

Hehehe. NO, our dreams don't count here. Funny.

 

Not in South Dakota! Deep South as in Georgia, etc. There isn't anyone actually living is South Dakota, is there?

 

From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion.

 

Anyhow, for me, one of the nice things about Taoist philosophy is that we are allowed to thing for ourself. I like that even though I do have 'wrong' thoughts on occasion.

[Marblehead]

 

well you asked for it

 

Now that was heavy!!!!!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thats interesting to me.

 

Are you guys suggesting that the super ego is the outside boundary, identity, protecting the inside resources that truely contains our nature like "happiness"

 

So the boundaries are protecting the happiness, but the loving person is constantly happy so doesn't need a boundary or super-ego in the first place? Like no one can ruin his day because he's too happy and has abundance?

 

Or am I totally misunderstanding.

 

That's pretty much exactly it. The happy/content/loving person is fine with who he is or is not. The outside super-ego has accumulated all these ideas of what he "should" be, and since the super-ego is just a fabrication - it has nothing but what it pretends to be. The super-ego get easily agitated by small things that seem to lower it's status because it exists as a mask, and if someone changes the mask then it tries to protect itself (I'm a He-Man, not a Strawberry Shortcake!).

 

If the super-ego is allowed to run the house, then the self is subordinated to the childish game that all the other super-egos want him to play so that they can play. When he plays, he can lose. If he doesn't play, he's still the adult, while the other kids are playing make-believe and pretending its real, getting caught up in their status, while the one who isn't part of this mask parade can just walk through, be themselves, and do what is in their nature. Following our true nature strengthens the mind, and, believe it or not, the body.

 

So the water element moves and survives on its own following it's true nature or "path of least resistance" (ie, not forcing concepts about itself), while the fire element feeds on false concepts and burns out. The fire element (also the area of reputation in Feng Shui) can eventually evaporate water, but water controls fire according to the 5 elements theory.

 

Now, that said, using all these concepts and this and that to try and make a course for ourselves can easily just be more concepts feeding the super-ego. Water just is. It doesn't depend on anything, though it comes from metal, so you might say that strength, knowing who you are, is first necessary. Metal comes from earth. Being like earth (sitting meditation), you will know the self.

 

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Isn't the water trigram outside motionless while the center is in motion? The outside representing the mountains and rocks or something. The center the flowing water.

 

I don't remember seeing anything about that. You sure your not confusing it with a hexagram?

[Everything]

That's pretty much exactly it. The happy/content/loving person is fine with who he is or is not. The outside super-ego has accumulated all these ideas of what he "should" be, and since the super-ego is just a fabrication - it has nothing but what it pretends to be. The super-ego get easily agitated by small things that seem to lower it's status because it exists as a mask, and if someone changes the mask then it tries to protect itself (I'm a He-Man, not a Strawberry Shortcake!).

 

If the super-ego is allowed to run the house, then the self is subordinated to the childish game that all the other super-egos want him to play so that they can play. When he plays, he can lose. If he doesn't play, he's still the adult, while the other kids are playing make-believe and pretending its real, getting caught up in their status, while the one who isn't part of this mask parade can just walk through, be themselves, and do what is in their nature. Following our true nature strengthens the mind, and, believe it or not, the body.

 

So the water element moves and survives on its own following it's true nature or "path of least resistance" (ie, not forcing concepts about itself), while the fire element feeds on false concepts and burns out. The fire element (also the area of reputation in Feng Shui) can eventually evaporate water, but water controls fire according to the 5 elements theory.

 

Now, that said, using all these concepts and this and that to try and make a course for ourselves can easily just be more concepts feeding the super-ego. Water just is. It doesn't depend on anything, though it comes from metal, so you might say that strength, knowing who you are, is first necessary. Metal comes from earth. Being like earth (sitting meditation), you will know the self.

 

 

So we become content with who we are in the moment, and we must learn to find our deepest self in every moment by practicing it first in meditation?

 

Kinda like monitoring your heartrate, being aware wether it beats faster or slower then average. Or how the sensations in your body feel and become familiar with the feelings. Being aware of where your focus goes in the mind: thoughts, smells, sensations.

 

Its hard to explain how I go about finding this inner self that requires no shell or constant reality and is very similar like water, but here's one way to describe it: "perceiving your perceptions" as if you are looking at yourself perceiving things and you become aware of yourself perceiving things. You see how your perceptions are one way or the other but you are the observer of the one observing. Is it something like that or am I just making up kookoo stuff here?

 

something about what you are suggesting I'm not completely clear about but sounds familiar... I think I did feel a peaceful period in my life where I tried this. Perhaps it feels very tranquil and balanced at the same time. It is like living with the passion of a small flame, constantly and steadily blowing, solid, not easily distracted, never over excited, never depressed.

 

Kinda content in a chill way like that bob marley song, hehe.

 

Oh, wait... Thats not bob marley? just say the title

Edited July 12, 2011 by Everything

[Everything]

I don't remember seeing anything about that. You sure your not confusing it with a hexagram?

I really have no knowledge of stuff like yin, yang, trigram hexagram or i Ching. I checked it out on google and came up on this page:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/trigrams.htm

 

It says the broken line is yang and straight line is yin. So water is broken, straight, broken. On top of another.

 

"A solid line in between two broken lines symbolize water. The two broken lines represent the depression of earth (river banks). The solid line in the middle represents motion. This creates the image of water flowing in a river. In addition, this kua also represents the moon."

 

But never mind if the site is just talking nonsense, I'm not familiar with these concepts.

[Marblehead]

Like no one can ruin his day because he's too happy and has abundance?

 

Or am I totally misunderstanding.

 

Interesting. There are many a day when I wake up and have this feeling that something unpleasant is going to happen or I am about to leave the house and take care of afairs and I will say to myself, "I will not let anyone screw up my day."

 

I don't know how it works but it does. Probably more at the way I present myself to others that makes the difference.

[Birch]

That's pretty much exactly it. The happy/content/loving person is fine with who he is or is not. The outside super-ego has accumulated all these ideas of what he "should" be, and since the super-ego is just a fabrication - it has nothing but what it pretends to be. The super-ego get easily agitated by small things that seem to lower it's status because it exists as a mask, and if someone changes the mask then it tries to protect itself (I'm a He-Man, not a Strawberry Shortcake!).

 

If the super-ego is allowed to run the house, then the self is subordinated to the childish game that all the other super-egos want him to play so that they can play. When he plays, he can lose. If he doesn't play, he's still the adult, while the other kids are playing make-believe and pretending its real, getting caught up in their status, while the one who isn't part of this mask parade can just walk through, be themselves, and do what is in their nature. Following our true nature strengthens the mind, and, believe it or not, the body.

 

So the water element moves and survives on its own following it's true nature or "path of least resistance" (ie, not forcing concepts about itself), while the fire element feeds on false concepts and burns out. The fire element (also the area of reputation in Feng Shui) can eventually evaporate water, but water controls fire according to the 5 elements theory.

 

Now, that said, using all these concepts and this and that to try and make a course for ourselves can easily just be more concepts feeding the super-ego. Water just is. It doesn't depend on anything, though it comes from metal, so you might say that strength, knowing who you are, is first necessary. Metal comes from earth. Being like earth (sitting meditation), you will know the self.

 

 

 

Oh, that was very good. Reading it as a predominately 'water' person ;-)

Are super-e and e split from each other? Do they 'talk'? Do you figure some people might have more of a tendency to be 'run' by 'super-e'? If so, why? What would be the conditions? I'm asking so that if we know what they are, we might do something about them :-)

[Birch]

Good post Mr MH. Snake people in South DKTA? Show me!

 

 

well you asked for it

 

Thanks ZerosTao. That was well weird. Hellfire and brimstone...

[Otis]

Hi Everything,

Thanks for the good word about the videos. They've been a fun and important practice for me (without feeling like practice).

 

I do think that all of us are using the word ego a bit differently. I don't think of the ego as specifically meaning "identity", but rather see identity as a subset of ego. I don't necessarily have to be self-reflective to act from ego; in fact, some of the most ego-bound people I've witnessed are very un-self-reflective. To me, ego is all the programming. It's the "if X, then Y" computational stuff, which makes us more like robots, able to have our buttons pushed.

 

It may be more useful to talk about habits, rather than ego, because that's a somewhat less controversial term. And I don't mean just "bad habits", because even the concept of bad is habitual.

 

The newborn baby, science says, is not quite tabla rasa (a blank slate). It has certain preferences and dispositions, already in it. Identical twins, separated at birth, share many characteristics, etc. None of that, of course, is habit; that's biology.

 

At birth (or even earlier), the brain of the baby is trying to figure out how to make sense of raw data. There is no conceptual difference between the different senses, for example. Later in life, we make vision king, but before birth, vision barely exists at all, nor sight, and barely sound. All the fetus has, is mostly touch.

 

Once the baby is born, however, it is taken from an organic environment (the womb) and placed into a conceptual environment, in which the baby is swaddled and kept indoors, so its touch sense is largely obscured by artificiality. From that moment forward, the sense of touch is the red-headed stepchild of senses, constantly kept from the environment by shoes, clothes, houses and cars.

 

This one shift, from touch being the king of senses to being the bottom of the totem pole, is enormous, in the effect it has in shaping the fledgling habits. Parents do still hold and caress their child, but vision and hearing are the dominant ways of interacting with the world, from there on out.

 

Because the parents place emotional importance on keeping the baby swaddled, on not having it naked around others, on not letting it be chilly, or touch the environment, or put things in its mouth, then the child learns not only that hearing and vision are important, but that touch exploration is actually kind of wrong, out-of-bounds. Once the parents get really self-conscious about the child's nakedness, then they're actually reinforcing shame and ugliness, in the child's attitude with the body. If the parent fights with the child about going to the bathroom, or touching him/her self, then even more corruption creeps in, about body shame, and lack of trust in the child's instincts. And then comes the endless stream of "no, no, no", as the child tries to explore its environment, so that trust in play and discovery becomes sullied. And then, parents freak out when the child exhibits signs of pain, suggesting to the child that pain is an adversary, something to fear, rather than just part of the senses. And all this, is before the age of 5.

 

So this is just one example of how habits are instilled in the child. The largest sense organ in the body (the skin) is made off-limits, and deep-tissue touch is barely explored, except in the case of accidents. The older we get, the more rigid the certainty becomes, that we are this way, for a good reason. But we're actually that way, mostly because our parents were worried.

 

What I'm suggesting is not that we throw away all the information that has served us, up until now. I am, however, suggesting that we doubt it all. There is almost no habit, no matter how of course it seems now, that I can say for sure is the right thing for me. Especially those habits that clearly were designed to bring me into society, or to make obedient.

 

The model of growth that interests me, is that of a plant. A plant is never taught, shamed, or told "no". It doesn't need a parent, teacher, or guru. It has all of the instructions for its growth, built into it.

 

Of course, we're more complex than the plant, but I do think we still have the entire blueprint to maturity, built into us.

 

And it's not enough to follow the parents' recipe for maturity, because 1. they're often not that mature yet themselves, and 2. because it's just more artificiality, on top of the older artificiality. We can be shaped, but toward a conceptual ideal. To emerge in the way that organism's inner blueprint wants us to emerge, we have to be authentic, a real animal that grows and explores in ways that makes sense to it.

 

So, the big question is: how do we find the blueprint? How do we find the body's authentic path toward waking up into full maturity?

 

That is what I am talking about, when I say: "surrender ego". Let go of what I think I know, so that I can listen to the blueprint, which is inside of me, always communicating its desire to wake me up. Because my senses and intuition are so contorted by habit, I can no longer pay attention to what's inside of me, can no longer trust my own instincts. But those senses are exactly what I need to trust, listen to, and learn from, if I want to emerge from my artificial personality, and awaken into my potential.

 

The blueprint itself is what I call "my path". And I know it only as a sensation. It's what Casteneda calls "the assemblage point", and I think it's what a lot of people call "God", "suchness" or "Tao". It's basically something that calls my awareness to it. When I heed the call, then I find that my ego self seems to vanish, just fold up, and something else starts to live through my body, through my life. It's the equivalent of "giving myself to God" or "being filled with the holy spirit". I am simultaneously humbled, and exalted. It is at that point that I realize that "I" am not the full Self; "I" am just the artificial personality, the ego. Only when I surrender myself, can I experience the blueprint calling me, and have it lead me toward growth, toward potential.

[Birch]

Hehehe. NO, our dreams don't count here. Funny.

 

Not in South Dakota! Deep South as in Georgia, etc. There isn't anyone actually living is South Dakota, is there?

 

From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion.

 

Anyhow, for me, one of the nice things about Taoist philosophy is that we are allowed to thing for ourself. I like that even though I do have 'wrong' thoughts on occasion.

 

" you like to think too much for yourself"

 

Yes, it seems that doesn't always go down so well with other folks :-(

Hence an outlet on a forum :-)

 

Anyways, what's 'too much' Mr MH? I'm not some 'rolling head' either :-)

[Marblehead]

Anyways, what's 'too much' Mr MH? I'm not some 'rolling head' either :-)

 

Well, I think it is only fair to repeat the entire sentence. Hehehe.

 

"From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion."

 

So, it's not simply saying "You think too much." but rather you have a mind of your own which you enjoy using and you oftentimes have an opinion and enjoy voicing it.

 

No, Hehehe, I wasn't suggesting that you are some 'rolling head' or 'dizzy blonde'.

 

I enjoy speaking with women, as well as men, who have thoughts of their own. This is where progress is made. Sure, sometimes our thoughts suck. Hehehe. But they were 'our' thoughts and that makes them personal. (Of course, we have to take responsibility for our own thoughts. If we only repeat the thoughts of others we can place all responsibility on whoever we are repeating.)

 

Anyone can be a 'yes' man (person). It takes a little more thinking to have an answer now and then.

[Birch]

Well, I think it is only fair to repeat the entire sentence. Hehehe.

 

"From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion."

 

So, it's not simply saying "You think too much." but rather you have a mind of your own which you enjoy using and you oftentimes have an opinion and enjoy voicing it.

 

No, Hehehe, I wasn't suggesting that you are some 'rolling head' or 'dizzy blonde'.

 

I enjoy speaking with women, as well as men, who have thoughts of their own. This is where progress is made. Sure, sometimes our thoughts suck. Hehehe. But they were 'our' thoughts and that makes them personal. (Of course, we have to take responsibility for our own thoughts. If we only repeat the thoughts of others we can place all responsibility on whoever we are repeating.)

 

Anyone can be a 'yes' man (person). It takes a little more thinking to have an answer now and then.

 

 

"Well, I think it is only fair to repeat the entire sentence. Hehehe.

 

"From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion.""

 

Point taken. Nicely done. However, there's still that 'too much' in there :-)

And the other stuff about religion. I don't doubt that there are people in religions who fully understand what they're doing:-) Just you watch me become a 'serious Catholic' ;-) (BTW, as close to Tantrism as I can figure for now )

[Marblehead]

Point taken. Nicely done. However, there's still that 'too much' in there :-)

 

Ah! Now I understand. Yes, perhaps the phrase "too much" was improper for the understanding I was trying to convey.

 

So perhaps I can rephrase the sentence to better reflect my thought.

 

Original:

 

"From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion."

 

Altered:

 

From what I have read of you, you like to think for yourself to the point where it would be difficult for you to become too serious about any religion because you would be tormented with the question "Why?".

 

Hehehe. Are we making progress?

[Birch]

Ah! Now I understand. Yes, perhaps the phrase "too much" was improper for the understanding I was trying to convey.

 

So perhaps I can rephrase the sentence to better reflect my thought.

 

Original:

 

"From what I have read of you, you like to think too much for yourself and that would be an obstacle to your being too serious about any religion."

 

Altered:

 

From what I have read of you, you like to think for yourself to the point where it would be difficult for you to become too serious about any religion because you would be tormented with the question "Why?".

 

Hehehe. Are we making progress?

 

Yes we are, because I was actually thinking about becoming a very serious Catholic Not tormented neither :-)

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I really have no knowledge of stuff like yin, yang, trigram hexagram or i Ching. I checked it out on google and came up on this page:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/trigrams.htm

 

It says the broken line is yang and straight line is yin. So water is broken, straight, broken. On top of another.

 

"A solid line in between two broken lines symbolize water. The two broken lines represent the depression of earth (river banks). The solid line in the middle represents motion. This creates the image of water flowing in a river. In addition, this kua also represents the moon."

 

But never mind if the site is just talking nonsense, I'm not familiar with these concepts.

 

a broken line is always yin, solid line is always yang for the trigrams.

there's lots of different ways of reading the trigrams (like I was doing above for example) and the cool thing is that they often make sense even when you get really far out there with it.

 

With the water trigram, you could say that the center "moves" but the general reading of it is that it does not "change." So your inner self can move. The thing here is that it does not change when it moves.

 

According to Taoist and Buddhist philosophy, the Original Mind/Self is always there, just like the clear blue sky is always there behind the clouds. When the clouds (anxieties, extreme emotions, false beliefsm edit: and convoluting everything like I'm doing here) disperse the Original Mind appears. This is why it's said that everyone is a Buddha yet to be revealed. Personally, I believe there are far more advanced things than this, and that realizing the Original Mind and the wisdom that comes with it is like a foundational achievement to get into the really high knowledge, so don't fall for delusions of grandeur if you manage to have this mind all the time. It means you have achieved higher attainment than most, but it's not the be all and end all of cultivation.

 

So.. getting back to water... what you said pretty much supports what I was saying -- that the unchanging solid self can move around, while the masks of self a.) get caught up and stuck in the pond/basin of super-ego games and b.) get controlled (see the water controls fire relationship again) since they don't have a solid true self.

 

 

hopefully I'll be able to get back to the other responses later tonight...

Edited July 13, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[steve]

Steve and Otis - I am totally in awe of both of you at this moment. Maybe even forever, I'm not sure.

Cool!

Let's call it even then - I feel the same toward you.

Truth be told, you'd be less in awe if you knew me better

But I sincerely appreciate the compliment!

[Marblehead]

Yes we are, because I was actually thinking about becoming a very serious Catholic Not tormented neither :-)

 

I better stop for now as I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion of religion. Hehehe.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So we become content with who we are in the moment, and we must learn to find our deepest self in every moment by practicing it first in meditation?

 

 

yes. I agree with that.

 

Kinda like monitoring your heartrate, being aware wether it beats faster or slower then average. Or how the sensations in your body feel and become familiar with the feelings. Being aware of where your focus goes in the mind: thoughts, smells, sensations.

 

 

you could, but personally, I don't think intentionally focusing on every sensation experience is necessary. It's good to enjoy the sun and the smells and everything else, and when thoughts or emotions start to take over then it's good to rein them back in, but to walk around like we just stepped into another body all the time would be more of a distraction than a liberation, imo.

 

Its hard to explain how I go about finding this inner self that requires no shell or constant reality and is very similar like water, but here's one way to describe it: "perceiving your perceptions" as if you are looking at yourself perceiving things and you become aware of yourself perceiving things. You see how your perceptions are one way or the other but you are the observer of the one observing. Is it something like that or am I just making up kookoo stuff here?

 

 

that makes some sense. you shouldn't be totally oblivious to your inner state.

 

something about what you are suggesting I'm not completely clear about but sounds familiar... I think I did feel a peaceful period in my life where I tried this. Perhaps it feels very tranquil and balanced at the same time. It is like living with the passion of a small flame, constantly and steadily blowing, solid, not easily distracted, never over excited, never depressed.

 

 

Yes. In this statement you got it. For me, excitement is necessary at least once in a while, but this state is the best way to be during normal everyday activity, imo.

 

Kinda content in a chill way like that bob marley song, hehe.

 

Oh, wait... Thats not bob marley? just say the title

 

Johnny Osbourne, Purify Your Heart

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Oh, that was very good. Reading it as a predominately 'water' person ;-)

Are super-e and e split from each other? Do they 'talk'? Do you figure some people might have more of a tendency to be 'run' by 'super-e'? If so, why? What would be the conditions? I'm asking so that if we know what they are, we might do something about them :-)

 

Thanks for the response K. Glad to know it resonates. Great questions too.

 

O.k., u ready?:

 

My knowledge of ego and super-ego theory comes only from knowing the general concepts and then applying them to what I've read in Buddhist and Taoist scriptures, and how I see those theories playing out in myself and people around me. So, hopefully this won't be critiqued along side the Freudian theories (which I suspect he lifted a lot from Buddhist and Taoist writing anyway.. lol).

 

So, from my view, the super ego is fear driven, and this fear comes from deep survival instincts which also play out in the need for status. This need for status is almost constantly fed by advertisements, and a lot of people who want us to do something will also use this desire for status as the carrot on the stick. Because this is so normal, we unconsciously accept that this is what normal ("high status," in-crowd, etc.) people do, and so we try to bite the carrot as if we will lose our status if we don't. Living on this plane of existence is out of touch with the true self, who might get in the way of trying to survive this kind of puppet show.

 

I think the super-ego is like a mist that surrounds the true self. It's not so much another personality as a set of tendencies to "inflate the ego" or create an "ego ideal" that is not real. People who act from the true self do not care what their status is in the world, largely because they know that most of the world is just a puppet show as mentioned above. The difficulty is not seeing one's self as inherently better than the super-ego puppets (the super-ego being the strings) and having compassion, hoping that they will find contentment. When someone looks down on the others, they are really just falling for the fears of super-ego and engaging in the same type of status game. When they fail to realize this, the super-ego strings are pulled and the true self gets clouded over.

 

 

At this point, the true self can see and say "oh, shit, this is a big mess of clouds" and clear it all away, reverting back to the original self which is not like a shiny new mercedes benz but is 100 times better for them and allows them freedom from all the bill collectors.

 

So in answer to the question "Do some people have more of a tendency to be 'run' by 'super-e'? If so, why? What would be the conditions?" I think one of the biggest causes of this is what I would call "expert disease." There is a term "zen disease" which occurs when someone gets into zen and then starts to think that they are a buddha or more intelligent than everyone which is part of the reason some masters have said high knowledge can be a bigger poison than a cure for some people. It's the same with being an expert at anything. We can easily play into the status game when we have a really good hand to play. Its far more tempting. This might be why Taoists say that the higher up you are the more humility is necessary.

 

The other side would be when someone tries to step on us to get closer to the carrot (see metaphor above). They push us down to push themselves up. It's like we were walking in the park and a soccer ball comes at us -- it's tempting to kick it but that would make us part of the game. If it's totally out of bounds we would be right to kick it back in without joining the game though.

 

 

In answer to "Are super-e and e split from each other? Do they 'talk'?"

 

I think if someone splits their super-ego from their ego, then they are in serious trouble. I take responsibility for my tendencies to occasionally fall into super-ego mode. I am one person. Sometimes I do stupid things, but it is me who does them and me who corrects them. Does the ego create the super-ego? sure, possibly, but it also realizes eventually that it is just playing dress-up and tells itself "quit it." Talking to ourselves is not abnormal behavior... mmmost of the time

[Everything]

Thanks for the response K. Glad to...

 

 

...of the time

Thats a great way of looking at things. Pretty interesting.

 

Thanks for writing it

Edited July 14, 2011 by Everything

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Cool, sounds good. Thanks

 

My pleasure. Has been an fun thread... glad you asked