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Been about 10 years! I couldn't sign in as Yoda so created this Yoda AZ name. Moved to AZ and tried to look up Cam recently but no luck with an old aol email address. His family has a store down the road from me, so I'll check there next. Anyone here in the Phoenix area?

I'll differ a bit with this CT. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your comments. From the dzogchen perspective, at least from the teachings I've received, if one connects to the Nature of Mind one is connected to all 3 kayas. There is never any separation, no connecting with one but then needing somehow to develop others. We can approach them through different doors - body, speech, and mind, but once we rest into our fundamental essence there is no distinction or differentiation. There is no practice of perfecting paramitas as they are already spontaneously perfected in the Natural State. This is the major difference between tantra and dzogchen. In tantra, one continues to practice generating bodicitta. In dzogchen, one simply rests in the Nature with the certainty that bodhicitta is already perfected and will manifest when needed.

I've been practicing since 2015 and can only do 30-45 minutes (sometimes longer) comfortably, and I sit in half lotus every day all the time while sitting at home. Sit often in half lotus and alternate the legs. Use pigeon pose to stretch the hip flexors (when you feel the stretch you'll know the sweet spot) and learn to actually rotate the hip when guiding leg onto other opposite thigh (again you''ll feel it) hope that helps

This is your innate intelligence signalling you to drop the idea of full lotus. I dont think its a good idea to place too much attention to outer forms, especially in the presence of some form of physical challenge. Its one of those things where those individuals who can do it will tout its veracity and superiority. In doing so, they make others feel inadequate (some do this maybe unintentionally), so this isn't exactly a careful type of skilfulness expected of one who claims to be a long term full lotus sitter, is it?

Now we're Dharma shaming?

Thanks, Steve. In some regards, the view presented is acceptable, and I would agree with the general premise, but taking into consideration that Lamrim is the recommended approach by all the main Tibetan Buddhist traditions for developing a wholesome practice and practitioner, it makes sense to avoid potential confusion by delineating all the yanas and Kayas as an expedient step to allow for understanding and clarity. The Lamrim path is an exhaustive system that offers exhaustive and meticulous guidance to any serious practitioner on the path to buddhahood. One who resonates with this graduated path can avoid certain pitfalls that tend to beset those who choose to throw caution to the wind and dive head first into this proverbial deep end, which is actually not deep and not really shallow either - a certain degree of affinity determines where one finds oneself once the commitment is made to burn the bridges. This bridge-burning is a common enough occurrence with those fairly new to tantra who then get enthused & charmed by the allures of Dzogchen. Finding oneself in such a precarious, heavily invested position is not entirely without merit as there is a sort of default assumption that whomsoever takes up Vajrayana will have already been informed of the perilous nature of this theoretically swifter path; therefore, Dzogchen as a follow-on naturally presents its own unique set of challenges which affect individual practitioners differently, depending on various karmic factors. To reiterate, while the eventual practice of Dzogchen may indeed be simple, to grasp its essence without first understanding the priors may prove tricky, which is the reason why some of the great Tibetan Buddhist masters understood the impracticality of leaving the preliminaries out, and for that reason, Lamrim was introduced. Perhaps Bon Dzogchen feel this to be an unnecessary burden to lay on students and practitioners. This is quite possible, as some Tibetan Dzogchen masters have that same attitude too. One of the better links for anyone keen to understand Lamrim and its benefits. http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/LAM_RIM_book.pdf

When I mentioned the "guiding spirit within" in catechism as a teenager, there were a few questions and much dismissal (along with a fair bit of derision). You see, the bible says Lucifer was a being of light, and how would I know if the "whisper" in my heart (only noticable when "I" didn't get to "loud" and in the way) wasn't the beguiling voice of the morning star himself. Up until this point, I believed everyone had such an inner spark, and they were just sometimes to loud to hear it. Then I realized nobody in that room knew (or had experience with) what I was referring to - including those entrusted to teach and guide me. Instead of looking within, I was instructed to let that go and follow the written word of God as presented in the bible. (I was to trust in the experience and sharing of long dead men, but not my own.) Years later I was invited to lunch with a friend and a Catholic priest who was a long time friend of my friend's family, and who had watched me grow up. He was curious why I no longer attended mass, and I shared the story above with him. He asked a few more questions, and then explained to me that I was a mystic, and there were still places within the church where this was accepted and nurtured - although not in the midwest town or it's surroundings where I had grown up and was presently living... In direct answer to the question you posed and I quoted above, self-doubt is taught and expected. Anyway, I'm rambling again..

Thank you C T. Certainly I had some idea of what meditation would bring to my life, and when it didn't, the reason to meditate was quickly lost. In some ways this was a crisis of faith. I took your advice, or my interpretation of it, and sat imagining myself meditating like I used to: with keen desire and focus. With particular interest in watching the resistance or anything else that arose. A number of memories surfaced and reminded me I still have a lot of work grieving this loss, which I focused on quite a bit yesterday. It occurred to me, that continuing to meditate after such an event, it's like the struggle parents have in staying together after the death of a child. It's an emotional minefield, with each partner reminding the other of the child, guilt and perhaps also blame. And likewise the same, meditation has for me has been about a relationship with God, and I have much to process still if we are to continue this journey together.

Essentially, the three kayas are a unified whole, but in practical terms, they can manifest individually and embodied according to each specific manifestation. This is why, for example, Guru Padmasambhava emanate different 'bodies' (aspects of enlightening qualities) at different times for different reasons. I dont think its a mistake to be 'interested' in the absolute nature of Dharmakaya, although for me, I would replace the term 'interest' with resonance. That hunger for spiritual release, I would assume, always begins at the level of intuiting that we can be much more than what we are, and in that, we get a sense that emancipatory freedom is possible - otherwise, why would we seek a path and practice it? So, this intuitive awareness is the voice of Dharmakaya whispering its reality, and for those that hear the faintest clarion call, make the connection and thus begin the arduous journey. After all, when the complexities are stripped away, Dharmakaya nature is but the nature of Mind, which, known (hopefully) to all Vajrayana practitioners, has both the qualities of empty-ness, and cognizance in a unified display. Making that connection, however, is only the beginning of the path. Those who receive the Guru's blessing of seeing into Mind nature discovers the knowledge of the absolute certainty of the indivisible, inseparable nature of mind essence which is undifferentiated from Dharmakaya essence - they do not, at that point, 'see' the speech (as you said, the communicative) aspect (Sambhoga), nor the manifestly integrated aspect (Nirmana). These two aspects are latter results that arise thru the practice of perfecting the various paramitas, of which the entire body of Vajrayana practices are subsets of. This would begin with ngondro, and evolved gradually to lead the practitioner onwards to the higher Maha Ati tantric cultivations. In the lower yanas, cultivation begins by contemplative exercises that involve understanding the discipline of mind and body to achieve integration, so it can be said that at this level, the practice's main focus is on Nirmanakaya and takes Buddha Shakyamuni as the inspiration; the middling, but supposedly slightly superior yanas are where self-effort is given some sort of respite - here, practitioners access not only inspiration from Buddha Shakyamuni, but also that of tutelary beings. Here, some traditions focus on metta bhavana, and practitioners of metta attune themselves with the energetic aspects of Chenrezig and her various subtle manifestations, while some others may also attune themselves and find resonance with the Pure Land path of Amitabha. In a sense, these are the 'enjoyment' yanas - thusly said because the practitioner realizes he or she is no longer left alone to fend off Maya - there is now some assurance that the practitioner is somehow being 'watched over' by the faith they have generated in Amitabha or Chenrezig, and therefore, can fearlessly make progress while 'enjoying' their protective gaze and intercessions. Recognizing the possibility of the interplay of enlightened beings with mortals is said to bring forth the realm of Sambhogakaya. Some random beginner's thoughts

I read the Bible. Cover to cover, old and new... twice, different versions. KJ first and another after that, forget which now. Matters not. Many sections I read dozens, hundreds of times... Reading it was the only course of action I had, for of all the most crucial questions I ever posed to church elders and my mum, all of the most important, the most distressing and challenging... were systematically ignored, cursorily dismissed with gross over-generalized simplifications, or responded to with seemingly, wholly irrelevant non-answers. Which was then usually followed up by accusations of my faith... claims I was disruptive (i was) and pressure to 'get out of your head and into your heart',. 'just trust god', 'if you had jesus in your heart, you would know peace, not inquiry." All were common for me to hear in Sunday School. Questions of my Faith were common... which always struck me, for it was precisely my unflincing belief that was driving me to uncover the truths that i had faith surely must be present. If anything, through the actions of those I knew from the Church, I steadily began to wonder if many of them possessed the faith they claimed so diligently. "methinks she dost protest too much." That line in Hamlet was like a bolt of lightning for me in realization of the self deception and rationalization that was so prevalent among the adults in my congregation. So I finally just opened the book they all kept claiming contained all the answers. The direct word of God. And read it for myself. Houston... we have a problem. My Mum was so proud, while it was ongoing. "you should see his bible study! It's so intense, he reads the bible non stop. I think we've got a preacher on our hands." If only she knew what was unfolding within me, or what was coming; she'd have ditched that bible pronto, for, once finished I'd approached her and asked... Me "have you read the Bible?" Her "Of course!" Me ".... All of it?!" Her "Well, no. Not all of it." Me "I think you should. I did and from now on... I'm done with any kind of organized Christianity." Turns out the shortest route to Apostacy for me, was to read the source material myself.

The tetramorph -- man, eagle, ox, lion. A Sumerian astronomically derived deity that later transitioned into the New Testament as the Revelation to John, also known as the Apocalypse. Have to agree that there's no apocalypse without heterochimeric creatures.

I really liked CT's post. What works for me is quiet the opposite. I commit to my practice. It's both a pleasure and a piece of work, some days are better than others I give me that but... if I don't play my daily part I can't be okay with myself I (tool)blame myself for it and so next day I'm back on it. I like to think our practices are like wheels rolling them bring up inertia. By inertia I mean, grounding and practice habits. Lost the practice, lost the habit, lost the grounding. So back on track pushing that big wheel to make that virtuous circle to roll again PS : that's how I'd see things for me but you may be totally different ! Wish you the best winds !

Meditation. Most carry some kind of preconceived notions about what it is, what it does, where it will take the one who does it. This in itself is an obstacle. Before the benefits can be appreciated more profoundly, it is worthwhile to first learn to gradually lay these notions aside. Where expectations are given less attention, then its just a question of picking it up again, without too much dwelling on the past, nor anticipating too much about what lies ahead in terms of benefits. One can always work with present challenges and use these as sparks to fire up that once ardent flame that you had found all those years ago. When despair arise, meditate on what despair is. Get intimate with that state in as relaxed a manner as you can muster. Do not assign praise nor blame - just observe the nature and the spectrum of despair, of loss, of sadness, of the whole range of emotions that creeps into your consciousness, how long they remain, and look for the source from which they announce their presence, and to which they return. Dont feel like meditating? That feeling can also be a source of contemplation. How long can you keep up that aversive feeling in your consciousness before something else wanders in to take prime role in that mind theatre? From this exercise, you will come to understand the fleeting nature of aversion, and from that, realize that your loss of motivation is not as forlorn nor stubborn as you'd imagined.

Like all sophists you make no distinction between the quality of an opinion which can vary from "right opinion" to the most egregious nonsense. Plato deals with these matters in considerable detail. It is the fact that there can be such a thing as "right opinion" that makes them interesting, it is the difficulty of finding right opinion, that should keep us humble.

Ven Tenzin Choedon, more prominently known as Ani Tenzin, was a resident of Kollegal Tibetan settlement who had spent over 44 years in meditation retreat at the holy caves of Guru Padmasambhava. Her body was found in the state of Thukdam with floral fragrance all around.

This is a vajrayana thread - so leave your sandals at the door. True nature is Buddha-nature or Dharmakaya - the reason you practise is because you have buddha-nature, the goal of practise is to realise buddha-nature, the path is ways to express buddha-nature. The path can be to 'directly rest in buddha-nature' (although technically there is nothing to rest in it but it is a good way of speaking) - this could be direct approach like Mahamudra or Dzogchen for example. The path can be to identify with tantric deity (yidam) and dissolve this identity into emptiness/buddha-nature this is tantric sadhanas. The path can be mind training - for instance sending and receiving which relies on the basis of buddha-nature. The path can be sutra analysis of the nature of things - their emptiness - which resolves to buddha-nature. All these rely on buddha-nature as the basis, path and goal. So the different paths - sutra, mahayana, tantric, mahamudra/dzogchen build like a stupa on the same core which is buddha-nature. The only difference is level of dualistic thinking which remains. So sutra analysis is still quite dualistic, mind training less so ... and so on. Thus there is no contradictions between these paths.

Prefacing Note On behalf of those who may benefit from this question as part of a distinct thread, and in the case that the original poster of the question would like to further their thoughts, I am moving this question here to its own thread. Though I am the originator of this post, I do not intend on hosting the thread since I seldom respond to a thread repeatedly. So this is a welcome open space for reading and sharing by those who have deep accurate intellectual knowledge or clear experiential understanding in Consciousness on the matter and are moved to share from its essence. If you are newly with seed and posting about the matter at any time, remember that what you say contains the sacred. Therefore, the post does not need (and could be harmed by) explicit vital detail, rather it needs your transmission. Therefore, speak from the place of what is essential. And If you are someone who has been in process for a while, welcome to you… welcome all. —————— How We Must Live and Become To Develop the Immortal Fetus Prior to the development of the Immortal Fetus, cultivation is usually necessarily multi-faceted and must take place on a variety of planes and dimensions within and through the individual- this can involve not only various internal and external alchemical practices, meditation, regular and deeply integrated lifestyle wellness practices and habits, but more importantly, the development of one’s consciousness and connection to such Consciousness itself. What is often overlooked during this process are the fundamentals of character and perspective, and the importance of how Being is refined through the very ordinary and unglamorous mundane of the seeming day-to-day. In this way, many of the precepts of virtues and methods extolled in Buddhism (though also spoken of in Taoism but are less accessible) can be readily practiced as a way of guiding the process to new birth. The recognition of Essence and Nothing through the baseness in living is the cultivation of form and formless, and its reconnection in purity to Original Essence and Spirit will ensure the natural development of the Golden Seed when: -an individual’s mundane process is sufficiently fulfilled (this contains within it an aspect of Ming which is not often understood correctly or completely) -the whole of the system is adequately refined (this refers to more than only the corporeal body) -and there is continuous proper spiritual alignment in integrity to both your own soul and the Tao itself Fundamentally Spiritual Consciousness Inspires Creation, and Proper Form Allows for it In my personal experience, the physiological processes of alchemy are secondary to one’s Nature: the importance of this is profound. In fact the capacity of our physiology for subtle energetic refinement is part of an inter-dependent process originating firstly from our own spirit which is then expressed often through mind and emotion. Therefore, our own spirit, character and consciousness refines the body, and in doing so, the energies of the body in return continue to refine the understandings of spirit, mind and emotions. Remember that mind, emotions and spirits are also just energies, so at its foundation, this is a cyclical process of energy refining energy, and the source inside yourself making this possible to the level of profundity required for the Golden Seed has to come from direct connection to your own Spirit. (If you are looking at this process through the lense of Taoism, recognize that things like ‘energy’, ‘connection’, ‘alchemy’ and ‘spirit’, are not ephemeral metaphysical concepts- that is, they may be conceptually abstract, but these are technical substances and therefore to willfully manage the process you must have an in-depth knowledge of its mechanisms, it cannot be lay knowledge- whether it comes about organically through awareness and Consciousness, or you came to know it through academic study, or guided mentorship, it doesn’t matter: your experiential understanding must be substantive enough to allow for clear, honest and refined distinction. So therefore and for instance, for those who experience and think Qi is just one thing, and that the Tai Ji are simply two different things- you need more foundational intellectual and experiential insight to progress as deeply as is required for the development of the Golden Seed). Ultimately, it is less about the perfection (of the maya/illusion) of ‘form’ and more about the purity of spirit and its connection to origin that allows for the transcendental changes and formations such as this. The body then is a vehicle for deliverance, so to speak, and the reason so many people begin with cultivation of the body is because the body is for many an obstacle. But when form is no longer an obstacle (meaning that without identifying with the body that you can still be firmly rooted in it and know the methods to care for it very well. If you can do this free of anxiety and fear, and do not consider such existence a misery or burden regardless of circumstance, then you will have transcended the fear that is death and living, and have found peace through the simplicity in being. This will allow for more subtle sensitivities to develop in your awareness.)- not even because of its supposed materiality but more because of your quality of awareness through perspective and experiential understanding of what form actually is, then this allows the energies to flow in greater harmony and resonance with not only your life, but with the universe and eventually the Unnamable itself. Ultimately the incubation of the immortal fetus and its development cannot be conceived nor its process complete without the necessary depth of clarity and connection to spirit and what is prior to essence: this can only be understood by one whose nature is not only truly clear but also has become consciously and truthfully simplified. In addition to the processes of deep and essential inner transformation that allow for the conception, one must already have consciously connected to the Unnamable, so this witness cannot be a happenstance glimpse. Thus, this connection has to be deeper than just an Awakening or even a series of Awakenings, and it is more subtle than the metaphysical- so for those who have had fantastic experiences of light, of emotional feelings of beauty and gratitude, of angels and heavenly beings, or time and space, or energy and kundalini- viewed from the Utmost, these are just other facets of the 10,000 things in its myriad of display. As this is a co-creative process between you and Consciousness itself, you must already be not only in witness but in relationship. Caring For the Golden Seed in the Early Stages without a Teacher Once you are seeded, the development process is not as complex as the various specific instructions may sometimes feel or appear (though they are very sophisticated in their simplicity). If you have come to this point of bearing the seed, then you will have already recognized the simplicity in essential nature and its condition of movements unobscured. In many ways, it is then simply a continuation of this wisdom through yourself from the depth of the Void. The self is a simply a container, and in right connection, there will be natural right movement and thus right development. If at this stage if you are without a teacher, then you will recognize that the two most important guiding points here are actually one and the same: 1) In your living, be in Source unobscured and unceasingly. Always be in alignment with Consciousness through all states, all conditions and at all times. There is no other way to live and it is the only true ‘living’ to be done. To support this, there is also one essential meditation and one essential process in living that I would recommend specifically. 2) In your living be wise- this is not cognitive intelligence, but deeply held wisdom from Source itself. Within this wisdom, practice safety: do not do anything to obscure or harm the natural process of gestation and birthing- see the first point again. (People who are wise are not reckless and have no concern for forms of indulgence. They live plainly, simply and are safe- not from fear, intertia or inhibition; but because they recognize what is truly needed: "Freedom to do what one wants is suffering, freedom to do what one needs is true freedom") Note that if you are without a teacher and/or in any way uncertain about the firing and steaming process, this lack of doing from within Presence is vitally important. Also, the seed in early stages is very fragile and real improper firing is not only a failure of method, but it is actually the (very subtle and insidious) exercise of desire- therefore this would actually be the application of unconsciousness even if you know the technicalities of ‘how’; so do not do it voluntarily without clear transmission. The firing and steaming schedule is not merely a mechanism of physics- at the transcendent level, these are actually methods of Consciousness you are applying. Therefore, they are powerful and must be done with an extremely refined precision from a depth of origin greater than the methods themselves. Either way, during this period, it is best to be in relative or complete peaceful retreat from society, even if you think you are and appear to literally be ‘doing nothing’ at this stage. As with what allowed for its conception inside of you, remember it is not the result that matters, but process, and in right process is contained result. So be at peace regardless of the progress of the fetus, just as you would all things; there is a Consciousness at work of which the fetus is one manifestation; your reverence to any eventuality must transcend even the precious embryo itself… In Source there is never impatience because there never was time; there is never agenda or possession because there was never something to be had. Remember that creation comes from Nothing as wei wu wei. [As an aside to those two main points (and I will not get into the details of why), I would offer that in your humility, give and share in benevolence as the Buddha spoke, if you can and if it is rightly for your path. One of the Three Treasures - sanbao 三寶 in Taoism can also be translated as compassion or love. Know that the spirit residing in each organ is illuminated from the spirits of virtue (known as the Five Virtues- de 德, they are: righteousness, trust, integrity, wisdom and benevolence and they are united in the consciousness that is shen 神)- these are important processes in culmination to the journey of the Ethereal Soul beyond this life time, and they are regardless of all things, worthy of our efforts. Give and share these teachings if it is rightly and you are able to do so from a place of transmission from Source… the world needs perhaps less teachers who know the materials academically and intellectually, and more who can hold true space in deep Nothing through experience.] So as with previous understanding that would have allowed for the seed, your lack of desire in radiant equanimity, your unceasing and sincere diligence, and your ability to remain in Source unobscured (this is actual True Presence) is what will allow for the support, knowledge and wisdom of its completion; the techniques are an intellectual recognition of natural process. While your understanding of its technicalities can help its advance and guidance, whether you are receiving precise information or not, at this level the instruction cannot supercede wisdom itself (known in Taoism as True Knowledge) or you will have prevented the very thing you are seeking to fulfill through improper force rooted in improper intent. Thus True Wisdom must be sustained and foundational through any attempt at practice of the firing and steaming schedule. True Wisdom becomes you when your Original Nature has come to a depth of merging with Source- on the mortal plane, this may take a little time, hence again, practice point number one. Be in that wisdom so what is right may blossom. And from this place of Nothing, you will recognize then that at its utmost, how Consciousness radiating through the illusion of forms is the creation of immortality.

Here is a different 'take' on rain (in Indonesia ) . Golden Rain - I did a gamalan workshop years back and got to play in one , the guy that directed the workshop ( the head of the gamalan orchestra of Sydney Uni ) was very proud of this piece , it was written by his teacher and won acclaim . However we never tried to play it ! Phew ! The beginner piece we did was complex enough for me . Each part for the individual isnt that complex , but when it comes together .... WOW ! ( I chose the two largest gongs to play .... being more of a bass/ rhythm/beat type )

Great to hear from you. For an original member like you I'm not even gonna cut and paste the usual stuff. Nice to have you onboard and online again. Cam's been missing in action for a couple years. Maybe your presence will draw him out. Yours thelerner

I ask please that you be respectful in discussion of his death, unlike the fiasco Jim McMillan received here when he died. John Chang died February 5th 2020. John's death was caused due to a fall, and internal bleeding in his brain. He was in his 80s at the time of his death. John healed numerous patients and housed and fed students all at his own expense without accepting any form of payment or donation. John sacrificed his standing as head of the Mo Pai school to try and help people who begged him to train them. He agreed to let scientists and medical doctors into his home to examine him. He allowed books to be written about him to help keep as much of the art alive as he could. I personally am grateful for all that he endured to make this information available to us. Thank you John for everything you have done for us.

Generally for me it is much simpler than all this. Dharmakaya is the base where "one taste" is the experience. From this base Sambhogakaya "emanates" as skillful action. They aren't quite so differentiated as this appears in words, but words are what we have here. When I don't connect with Dharmakaya (in an aware fashion) there is still action, although it tends towards a more ego centric manifestation, and can be decidedly less skillful and more stumbling. My practice has not been towards a goal of self liberation or to become something "more" for the sake of either this liberation or this more, but to be better able to "skillfully" respond to the suffering which arises around me. Any ideas of Nirmanakaya I generally leave be - unexpressed, and best left this way for me. And now I'll bow out of this interesting discussion, but will continue to read. Warm regards and best wishes.

The new one after the Age of Taurus, the one we all know and love as AD or CE, was the Age of Pisces. Fish equals Son of Man for reasons theologians might know better and I forget. As for the next one, the Age of Aquarius, much looked forward to in the famous song and hippie folklore, there's no consensus as to when exactly it's coming. Wiki pushes it all the way to 2600. But my Western astrology guru (I do my own Chinese astrology for the most part, but, being rather clueless in the Western variety, have to seek out who to trust), who calls himself an astrometeorologist, is mathematically gifted and studies, primarily, the Sun, asserts that it's just began on Thursday, March 19th, 2020. I pay attention to what he has to say because, among other things, he routinely predicts the weather (not the climate which I can't personally verify) with mind-blowing accuracy a couple of years ahead and then season by season, month by month, location by location. Whereas the official weather guys/gals are more often than not way off even with the next week's forecast.

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I want to share a very interesting book that I read recently. It's called China's Super Psychics, written by Paul Dong. Not sure whether you guys have heard of it or not. The author is a Qigong master himself, in this book he tells some really interesting stories about the Qigong fever in China in the 1980s. In one chapter, he even introduces a way to open "heavenly eyes", he says most people can achieve this with 4 months' practice. I'm impressed by one of the conclusions in the book, ie. Qigong practice has a strong relation to ESP abilities. The healing power of Qi is also real. He also mentions "bi gu" (Chinese fasting), it's basically an advanced form of Qigong. Basically, human beings can survive on Qi by practicing Qigong. I know some theories in Daoism also prove this. I'm still learning about these subjects and doing some research in my free time. Btw, I find this website has some instructional books on Qigong that seem legit. Also, here's an interesting released document on Qigong. I'm very happy to find this great forum. Hope to make some friends here!

Thanks CloudHands. This is solid advice and exactly what I would have said before this crisis. For me, this worked perfectly, I didn't always feel like meditating but I still did. Basically this worked for me until it didn't anymore

Thanks virtue. I did try this path, but struggled to find meaning within it alone.

∞ AVATAMSAKA SUTRA ∞ 8 8 4 Just as reflections on waterAre not inside or outside,Bodhisattvas seeking enlightenment Know the world is not the world: They do not dwell in or leave the world, Because the world is inexplicable; And they are not inside or outside, Appearing in the world like reflections.

&

Thank you for the answer but i did not ask that question. I asked what do you do when a student can't stop moving as a qi deviation from spontaneous. The problem with "that" evidence is that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I can point you to threads here in TDB that involve people having been damaged by training in Spontaneous qigong systems. This isn't proof either, by the way, just an indication.

Been a long time lurker here since 2004 I have many interests but mostly interested in neigong, taoist neidan, and TCM at least this is what i have experience with myself. I have trained with a number of teachers in china and have a pretty good basic knowledge of chinese medicine although im not trianed in it I have met many of John Changs students as well as Shifu Jiangs and Wang li pings and have personally trained and practiced with such people and have visited china many times in my persuits Personally i train a basic level of neigong from a chinese school, although i am still a low level practitioner I also have interet in other traditions mostly dzogchen, mahamudra and anything else that leads to potentially high level states look forward to good discussions

Yes, I was wondering if the sculpture represented a significant arrangement or date for the Sumerians . They ( I think it was the Sumerians) also had a similar arrangement of stars - the four royal stars . Half a mo'. Ah ... it in my studies about Persians ; Aldebaran, Regulus, Antares and Fomalhaut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_stars

Ha... another one just popped to mind... "Doubt is sin." Turns out... Doubt has been my most treasured and rewarding trait.

The last few months ... and still one left .... my dragon plant has started producing . It tastes like perfume .... or 'parfait amour ' All those different coloured dragon fruit ... do they all taste the same or not ? I haven't tried them . Plus the usual veggies . A large row of broad beans ( for Sth American style rice ; broad beans , rice, capsicum, onion, fresh herbs, chorizo, chicken ). A row of tobacco - that isnt doing very well , wrong season ?

I'm mulling these ideas over so bear with me. Buddhists usually talk about the three kayas - or bodies of the Buddha - but in tantra they are more seen as aspects of reality. I kind of assume people know what they are but anyway: dharmakaya - the absolute nature of reality (?) sambhoghakaya - the enjoyment or communicative aspect of reality nirmanakaya - the manifestation of buddha-nature e.g. the appearance of Shakyamuni himself as a historical being. The way I see this is that when examining the nature of reality you can either look deeply into the essential nature of 'things' = dharmakaya ... this is also called pure perception and particularly in guruyoga sees buddha-nature in the lama but also all reality as a pure buddha-field. Sambhogakaya is to do with the unceasing play of form and inter-relation of form/function - like a kalaidoscopic display of the dynamic in the buddha-field, you could say rather like an unstoppable vibrational field of energy or something like that (although this begins to sound a little non-buddhist. The Nirmanakaya is the uncountable emanations of 'things' , thoughts and so on which emerge from this dynamic field. What in Daoism would be called the ten thousand things. So you look at the nature of reality - and see its essence =dharmakaya, see its display of inter-relating possibilities = sambhogakaya and the infinte complexity of manifest forms = nirmanakaya. Now, a mistake I think is sometimes made is to think all I am interested in is the absolute nature, the dharmakaya itself, but actually this is a kind of abstract way of thinking - as if you can separate out one kaya without the others. This is why they sometimes talk about the Svabhavakaya - which is the sum of all three. More later when I've thought this through a bit more. Please critique what I am saying if you so choose

Koan: Who left the sandals at the door? This is why I like Vajrayana and tantric methods. In particular, Guruyoga has always felt very direct and enchanting to me. It's collective karma that determines which Dharma doors and methodologies become popular or available at all. We are very lucky to have relatively liberal access to once secret methods.

@waterdrop Here's a hodge of answers that arose while pondering your question of how I seek balance. Walking in nature, (which includes the nature of the city where I live, or wherever I happen to find myself). Qi Gong, Spontaneous and Formal. Stillness, Mindfulness, and Emptiness Meditation. Painting, Sketching, Sculpting. Play: cultivating childlike playfulness, anywhere, during any activity, work or free time. Finding a way to engage the inner child, particularly within normally unpleasant tasks. Doubt: Ceaseless questioning and re-examining of assumptions about my actions and their motivations. With specific attention a regarding "The Storyteller's" tendencies to assume I know why people do and say what they do in life, without knowing them, or communicating. Self introspection regarding all the stories that arise in my mind when observing life. Radical Release of all that is, including myself to be what it is in any given moment. Emulating flowers is a great mental model for release. Flowers do not open through diligent effort, but through complete release. If I release all that is not inherently my True Nature, once all is released, what remains is my True Nature. Here in a mix of these processes, I'm never balanced, but I experience states where I'm more likely to become aware when I begin to slip out of balance and may get a chance to course correct before things progress into hack and slash mode.

Very good advice from @forestofemptiness ! It's spot on. I would go further and recommend starting with something more simple and foundational than the golden flower method. It's like diving deep into post-doctoral level of algebraic mathematics before having learned addition and subtraction.

Sure, how about this... My acting or not acting, are both accepted equally, as part of the naturally co-arising conditions of any given situation. If I don't act, I'm accepting life as it is, including my presence and awareness and no draw to act. If I act, I'm still accepting life as it is, acceptance now includes my presence, awareness and any actions that I'm drawn to perform. Because I am always an intrinsic part of whatever conditions are arising in life. Action does not preclude Acceptance and Acceptance does not imply inaction. Both action and non-action arise naturally. I am part of nature, as are my actions. Real life example. (This one is about Acceptance so complete it abides beneath the threshold of conscious thought): My Father in Law stumbles and begins to drop my 6 day old son. Moment later, I find myself holding my son in my arms. This is an example of such pure acceptance of the draw to act; that thought does not even arise, action simply flows tzujan, of itself, effortlessly. Wei Wu Wei. and thought only arrives to analyze it, after the fact. A pregnant woman stumbles next to you at the bus stop, you find yourself supporting her and preventing her from falling. Should this be interpreted as a rejection of life as it is? Or can you accept that you are the part of conditions of life as it is in that moment which resulted in her not falling? It's a subtle shift in interpreting action, but potent. Freeing. Here's another, less instinctual example, one which involves concious thought and 'choice' which is also an example from my life. When walking each morning before dawn, to go to work, I often see Szuki. On the days I see Szuki, (a local feral cat I have befriended), I will sit down and offer her a few slices of meat from my lunch. Is this action on my part a non-acceptance of life as it is? Is there an assumption that to act implies non acceptance? Am I not part of life as it is? Is not my draw to act and share a meal with someone who may be hungry, not also a natural part of what is occuring in that moment? I am not separate from what occurs. I experience life as intrinsically interwoven and thus, my presence in any situation and any action arises from me, does so as does any other force involved. For me, Action is not a negation of my Acceptance of Szuki's state of hunger, or nutrition. Nor is it a rejection of life as it is. I'm accepting that in that moment, my presence and draw to offer the presentation of a small snack for a hungry friend. One last example: My son who is finishing 8th grade, shortly before school's were closed, witnessed three kids corner another at recess and begin giving him a hard time. My son walked over, stood by the bullied child and intervened asking "hey, what's going on?". "Nothing... we're just messing around." said one. "He seems upset, why don't you just leave him alone." my son replied. "This is none of your business" said another, then reached out, grabbing my son by the wrist. A moment later, my son in a state of shock, realized he had the kid who grabbed his wrist, in a head lock. My son released him almost instantly and then said "hey look! I don't want to escalate anything. Just leave it all alone." They walked away. Even if the action arising is one of opposing as in this case... for me this does not imply a rejection of what is... because we ourselves are always a part of what is, and thus accepting our actions is a natural accepting of life as it is.

Thank you for sharing. I haven't encountered this excerpt to my recollection but I see this principle play out in my own life in so many ways.

The sutra in question is a fairly substantial load to digest, and may not be the ideal guide for the purpose expressed in the OP. This is the general view, and a safe one to offer since you've not (yet) shared any insight into your familiarity with Buddhist teachings. Not that you have to, but at least it'd be helpful to ascertain your understanding as regards the meaning of 'True Mind' vs 'False Mind', specifically in relation to your personal experience of both these minds. Without this information, it may not be helpful to answer your query with any depth. It is quite possible, and fairly common too, that upon reading a sutra or commentary (of a sutra) one may, by sheer chance or karmic resonance, bump into a moment of inexpressible clarity (I like the phrase, "gap between thoughts") - this can happen to practically anyone, and not just in a focussed spiritual cultivation setting. Getting one's finger caught by a closing door can generate a similar fleeting moment of clarity (do not try!!). In fact, any form of sudden immersion in, or absorption of a profound experience that is beyond words and transcends the senses can produce these 'gaps'. Zen masters are well known for creating situations where such moments of awe-inspired speechlessness arise repeatedly for their students. In that instant, its as if the consciousness is suspended in limbo. You'd likely know this if you're familiar with Zen. Practically though, I'm more inclined towards seriously suggesting a deeply penetrative 50/50 Vipassana/Samatha practice route to enable the gradual onset and sustainability of this True Mind you mentioned.

Welcome to the Tao Bums. A wonderful forum to learn, discuss and cultivate. Below are 3 important sections: Our Rules, The Insult Policy and our 3 Foundations. Before you join give them a read. Most of it boils down to being respectful. No name calling or trolling. Post as if your mom's looking over your shoulder. Discussion and arguments are what the board is about. Keep it civil, don't get personal. Don't be a troll or one issue zealot. We're here for good conversation and make some friend along the way, to be a community. Jump right in, start threads asking questions, look for interesting threads and post your (relevant) thoughts. For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day. Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you, Michael and the TDB team Read and review Our Rules: Our Insult Policy- Read it, Live it TheDaoBums' Three Foundations: Eclectic, Egalitarian, Civil. Welcome, I think I get a little of what you mean. Often it feels like I spend my life wasting my time. I try to shrug it off. Get up early, find the one important thing. Get it done. then.. something else. When we can't find Our Meaning we turn to a list of actions..

Some time ago, I stopped seeking answers and started living in the questioning. Such contentment arose effortlessly. So much energy spent in the defining, propping up and defending of answers that in my experience time and again, can not hold their timbre under the weight of their own surety. “To learn which questions are unanswerable, and not to answer them: this skill is most needful in times of stress and darkness.” ― Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness

First of all, I have not viewed the link you supplied so I am not addressing the content in there, just your question about the substances themselves and their processes. The "goal" is what you make of it. It's easy to dismiss this, in fact many students when I say something so simple do dismiss this while acting in theoretical courteous agreement - "Of course, right right" they nod their head vigorously, while lazily internally waiting for a seemingly more tangible answer that they really want to hear to be handed to them. The world is full of answers- but what could be better than realizing that all the resource you have to Become already lies within you? This is not a PC statement or a clever statement, it's the transcendent recognition of self beyond illusion and it needs to be taken seriously. This chosen path cannot be resolved in understanding to transcendence by those who need mental answers and desire social satisfaction, this is the path for those who are able to find true resolve and harmony in being without in every moment- and I mean that in many deep, deep ways. It is not to say that one may not experience forms of measurable change through practice and cultivation, but if you believe these moments of flux to be the arrival of the 'goal' or 'the ultimate' then you will have already seeded misunderstanding in the experience that you just 'grasped'. A profoundly truthful recognition at any level or layer of form is always beyond measure because it transcends the human device even if it can be witnessed in and through us. So students who tell me they want a teacher who will make them feel something specific and tangible, who are thus driven by the experience of phenomena- these are the people who enjoy the perpetuation of phenomena, who ultimately, are afraid to be without. And these are the same people who easily fall prey to strong intellectual minds and are seduced by imagery (ie. academics, powerful and persuasive egos, the look of monastic robes, fancy romantic tai chi moves, amazing displays of qi projection, etc.,.), who get caught up in their own emotionality of fantastical occurrences (ie. psychotropic drugs, mystical occurrences, impactful collective experiences, etc.,.), and who continue to crave affirmation to espouse validation (ie. credentialing, titles, audience recognition, etc.,) and thus are easily led astray and seduced by persons, groups and experiences seemingly more prestigious and enlivened than they actually perceive themselves to be. This is the weakness of insecurity and highlights the importance of doing the internal work necessary for a deep self-knowing... after all, from what source do you think immortality and enlightenment arises- somewhere outside of yourself? is it just floating somewhere in the universe of dimension? do you think a school will grant you a title and in that moment it becomes so? will society thinking you are a guru make it true? do you mistake the heavens for the Unnamble Source? So no matter what your lineage, who your teacher is, in order to walk this path truly, it must come from a guidance deeper and even more profound than the thing you think to be yourself. There are levels of exploration that can be done in the comaraderie of peers, or for the joys of health, etc.,. and in some of those exploratory or beginning stages, the simple practice of tai chi, qi gong, or basic knowledge of Taoist esoterics can provide an excellent foundation. For those who are are committed, there is incredible benefit to be had through selecting an area of study with great depth beyond a general workshop or class- at this stage learning must be continuous and your lifestyle reflective of each piece of knowledge; thus diligence and discipline are required. At later stages (and by late, I do not mean external progression, but internal: who you are, not what you have yet appeared to do or not do- this is about a maturity of sincerity), a private mentorship with a true teacher and the appropriate application of meditation can be profound. Thus the level, school, teacher or lineage you select may affirm to yourself the level with which you are ready to understand- assuming that instruction meets the substance of your willingness. Those who walk the true path deeply have already seeded in themselves a profound honesty- an honesty that will help them select or discover a true teacher, they will be sincere in their willingness and because of this they will arrive and know in concert with the Tao in their own time, not even because of their true teacher or a great lineage, but because of who they are. So the answer to this question is not for someone to tell you, not for the thing called "Taoism' to decide, or even your teacher. You come to the teaching because you are ready. And what you select- in consciousness and in ignorance, will continue your chosen path. Ultimately, the true substance is not found in any matter of phenomena- you will discover once you arrive there that even the substances of these Treasures in their most pure essence are so subtle, that they too nearly surpass anything which could give it name, including their own given names. When you are transmuting, in some ways, the pathway doesn't matter. I say this in part because you will notice that each school or scholar talks about the order slightly differently and yet each is still possible. The orders are different simply because of the starting point that is chosen. Since the substances and mechanisms are entirely inter-related and inter-dependent, one will not go without having at least some affect upon the other- the degree and quality of effect dependent on the quality of teaching and practice. The most basic understanding is to know that the energetic physiology of the physical system begins at the root- so this is jing and moves through the triple burner converting pre- and post- natal essences into qi through the middle dan tien before it arrives in the upper dan tien to nurture shen. This is the foundation of formations from the energetics of the mundane, especially when we are looking at how post-natal processes enable human life. However, even our systems exist in layers and dimensions, so again, the understanding of point of origin needs to be guided by a greater sense than just human dictates and esoteric sciences. If you arrive in Original Consciousness, this will make sense (if you follow my posts, you will notice that they are focused on shen and not jing. There are many reasons for this but an essential one being that you can worry about the form all day, but the form really only becomes whatever it is because of our quality of Consciousness- form is ephemeral and transient, its only purpose or value is as a vessel to enable Consciousness in its many manifestations, hence this is why immortality is possible. So even if the root of the energetic body is in jing medically speaking, the root of both form and formless of any manifestation and its capacity for transformation is ultimately found in (yuan) shen. Hence, immortality only has the potential to begin after passing through the threshold of enlightened strata). Thus, though the wealth of the post-natal substance can be arrived at through intense focus in still fortification and drive in conservation, as well as substantive knowledge of the medicines to enable longevity- to the degree that you are moved beyond having a substantively healthy form, you will begin to explore what is 'original'- the yuan. Here, at this point, there can be no "goal", as you spoke of. If you put the goal before you, you will obscure the very thing you seek. To be able to transmute and recognize what is so pure, requires that you have come to a peace of mind, heart and form. Desire must be arrested and greatly diminished if not entirely extinguished. What is pure is not tainted by semblances. Thus the pre-natal essence becomes through not only the principles of health that guide the bounty of rightful mortal living but also the processes of purification and release- here is where one starts the process of truly being without. Being without may be reflected in form, but more importantly is the source of your understanding and orientation to form, so that form in its infinite manifestations is immaterial from within the perspective of those who reside in Nothing. Caring for the Three Treasures exclusively in the post- or pre- natal state does not automatically guarantee that each will affect the other condition entirely. There are many, many factors that influence what is longevity and immortality and how it manifests in an individual including the stage of life in which they begin their cultivation, the overall path of their soul across time and space, their existing quality of health and clarity at the time the cultivations begin; and at later stages- the choice of manifestation they select, the depth of embodiment, the core of their focus, their ability to influence time and space including that of their own soul or 'karma' , as well as how strong deep and pure their spirit is in connection to Yuan Shen and Tao. In general, those that have mastered nothing, need to just focus on good quality health and greater self-awareness, in short, being a good human being and becoming a more self-aware person; they can further their being through substantive theory and disciplined practice. Those that are able to cultivate longevity will not only have attained requisite knowledge, but live in an applied understanding and thus will set the later stage to begin the purification process. While those who began this lifetime in a state of purity, will likely have automatically attained a measure of longevity and can begin the process of the Golden Seed. Most people are in some complex mixture in between and all people will benefit from the understanding of the care of form more foundationally, while self-reflecting upon their spirit through forms of meditation no matter the semblance of their stage. I want to offer that those who are later in life and/or have not been regular in their practices, who feel that they may be behind or think they would fail to complete milestones in cultivation (ie. perhaps because of health issues, trauma, past transgressions, or simply because they feel so exceptionally 'ordinary', etc.,.) and thus are resigned to lesser 'achievements'- do not doubt and do give up: live every moment as deeply and completely as you know how in health, awareness and self-cultivation- for this is the way of every Being who has ever come into immortality- they realize the eternality of the moment and they live accordingly, for there is only this moment to be and become. Remember too, that from a much greater existential perspective the path of your spirit is non-linear, so all that you give to this moment transcends this exact place and time. This is one of the understandings you can come to realize and (yes, palpably- lol) experience when you reside deeply in presence. So do not look to a later time to become, do not assume impossibilities from fear and doubt. Carry a light heart, be present, live honestly: always. ----- And so as for speaking, the next time you post a question to the forum ask yourself why you ask at all. Ask yourself what is worth knowing and why. Ask yourself to the utmost of the self you know, what is the answer. Then stop. Be still. Listen as infinitely long as it takes to understand- that is meditate and live in meditation- not dream, not human ideas of peace, but deep still inner awareness penetrating the silence. Be willing to move in both the knowledge and mystery that becomes each moment of what you are. Be content not to understand, instead be an honest person- discover whether your own questions are sincere, because the honesty of your understanding in reply depends on the quality of your sincerity in asking. Students and practitioners who do not recognize answers through the very simplicity of nature and being in the everyday, will limit their own understanding even when presented with the most profound of direct teachings. The answers are everywhere; existence in itself is an answer if you can recognize it and even more so, if you can penetrate it: there is only you who has yet to discover your own capacity to truly realize and become.

What you achieve is 北方河車. The next step is 烏肝, an inner light. Your golden light is it. And the next step is 兔髓. It is an inner light, too. But 兔髓 is different from 烏肝. 烏肝 move, but 兔髓 doesn't.

Just in case anyone wonders about the exact origin of this butt plug business.. The "wooden bun" is, as Drew referred to, mentioned in the later chapters of the book Taoist Yoga, Alchemy and Immortality. Particularly in Chapter 13: Gathering the macrocosmic alchemical agent for the final breakthrough: Nothing gets actually inserted! 😅 You can get the basic idea, if for instance you've ever been sitting on the floor and naturally ended up with the heel of your foot between your "sit bones." Keep in mind of course, the guys in this book are super extreme. It also says they put a dang clothes pin on their nose to keep anything from leaking there. Nobody do this! It's shown here out of context and is part of something that took many many years under very specific guidance.

As I mentioned in another thread about the Sixty Jaizi Generals and their use in Fengshui and Chinese Magic, an ironical counterpoint to here where I have been portrayed as an all talk intellectual air head, at the beginning of last week: It has been very busy and I have not had much time to do more than think about this thread and how much more I wish to post on someone else's thread about "defacing the Nomos" and the Joys of a Dog's life, and I have decided that the anachroistic representations of Platonism as just a form of, and precursor to modern "intellectualism", is something that I will have to address, but how much and to what extant I am not sure. The one thing that I will say now and that I can show, at least to open minded people, is that Platonism is a fundamentally mystical philosophy and that it harnesses the mind and reason for the purposes of escaping from the nomos and grounding ones "knowledge" in a direct and "mystical" encounter with the transcendent. That this creates what basically amounts to a "rational mysticism" is something that someone subscribing to the post Romantic nomos of anti-rationalism will find hard to believe can be assumed, and since most people who read and post on the Dao Bums fall into this category it is an uphill battle. For now this is about all I can say about the matter, though I do hope to post a fuller account shortly, though the number of times that I have said that only to find that it is weeks or months before I can return to a topic is unfortunately, a true if unhappy fact. I don't see much point in discussing 9th further, unless future posts from him make that necessary. All I will say for now is that, had he been less rude and arrogant to you, I might not have been as short with him. In the past I have found some of his posts interesting and bear no ill will to him.

My, how we jump around, from talking about the Cynics to quoting Austin Osman Spare. Those who would like to read the rest can find it here: A. O. Spare The Anathema of Zos I don't find such “prophetical” revelations convincing whether they are Biblical Prophets or early Twentieth Century artists. What's next Chaos Magic? The last line though is of interest because by saying that, “Necessity and time are conventional phenomena”, “necessity and time”, with necessity being a possible reference to the Greek, Ananke, could be read as a reference to the “world” of sensory experience as nomos and as such just a set of bad habits. Sheldrake's Morphogenic Fields almost amount to that, but his ideas have serious consistency problems. One of reasons why I am pointing this out is because of what I said earlier: Aristotle for example started a study of the constitutions of various countries in the hope of finding in their commonalities a guide to nomos, but Plato had a more radical notion and that was the the whole of the sensory world was a reflection and/or representation of a higher reality and as such served as a reminder of the whole of which we are in a sense parts, but parts that reflect within ourselves that whole, thus the Microcosm/Macrocosm analogy. Sensory experience was the mathematical representation of the higher realm with with Time as the “changing image of Eternity” in mathematical cycles, and space became its expression in Geometric forms. Plato represented this as a line divided into four sections. The main feature of this is that two of the four are the objects of mind/consciousnes and are called intelligibles, these are the who “higher” realms, and the other two are experienced through sensory experience, or by the imaginative faculty. The other important point is that these are all linked and represent differentiations of the power of Knowledge/perception, in other words there is no sharp break which could be interpreted as a “duality” in the Cartesian sense, rather it is a continuity of greater to more diminished clarity of perception. Thus perception and the sensory world, would indeed be nomos, in the sense I proposed earlier as a reflection of human nature, but expanded as a reflection of Cosmic nature, and thus not merely an illusion, or set of bad habits. More details about this can be found here: Plato's Divided Line with a long and fairly complete analysis of the Divided line referenced in the Wikipedia article here: Psychology, Philosophy, and Plato's Divided Line In many ways the divided line points back to what was said here: a position which I fundamentally share, and is basically Platonic, though Plato and I work out the details in a somewhat different way from what I suspect 9th does.

Because of limitations in time right now I cannot address more than this point: The reason for this is because most people never question their beliefs, they never engage in the type of self-knowledge that I recommend here: We all 'ate' a lot of words growing up and a lot of them are there in our hearts and our bellies and the they determine who we think we are and how we act. Maybe we should get to know what they are. The Platonic/Socratic dialectic is a process of asking people these questions in such a way as to “undermine the nomos” and a good job of "undermining the nomos" can lead to things like this: Attempts to “deface the nomos” usually just result in defensiveness and arguments. Plato undermined the Hellenic nomos based on the models of the Homoric epics and was amazingly successful, his techniques are as powerful today as they were then. His insights into life in the “cave” and how to escape it have been an inspiration for 2500 years. As I have more time I may post more.

Can anyone honestly say they know what nature is though?: Absolutely. If nature is only what you perceive and reason: This is the empiricist fallacy which started a slow rise in the Seventeenth Century to dominate Western thought in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries, but was not typical of Western Philosophy from the Hellenistic period to about 1800, when Empiricism started to completely eclipse the older organic/holistic view which characterized Western Philosophy previously. To quote from the Wikipedia article on Natural Law: We can "know" this "Form of the Good", because the good is already a part of us, this is the epistemological basis of the Microcosm/Macrocosm doctrine which I have dealt with in the context of Self-knowledge here: In the West it became fundamental to Metaphysics and Ontology, but originated as an Epistimological theory: Like is only known by like in Empedocles because it solves a lot of problems created both by Parmenides on the one hand and the early Greek Atomists on the other. This doctrine was worked out by Plato in a very profound way and continued to influence Western Philosophy up to Hegel. It existed in China as can be seen in this quote from the Confucian, Mencius: and was also used in Daoism. In Plato, as becomes very clear in Plotinus, all things, including our own divine being as already there within us, it allows this type of knowledge of God: as is found in the Corpus Hermeticum. The text which I emphasized above, "If, then, thou dost not make thyself like unto God, thou canst not know Him. For like is knowable to like", emphasizes the epistemological origin of this practice and it is only the Microcosm/Macrocosm analogy that makes it possible. This is a very Western approach approach to God as the fullness of Creation and the unifying One at its root, though the approach to the One as the one itself is also part of Western Philosophy especially in Plotinus. Edit: Changed had to hand in "Parmenides on the one hand" above. I hope this is helpful.

Here is the general structure of Book One. If we make an index which first gives these broad categories and then when each of these main topic chapters is introduced create a sub-index for the other individual chapters, that might be a good way to organize the material. Chapters One and Two introduce the subject of the Magician, what he studies and what he practices. How Magicians Collect vertues from the Three-fold World, is Declared in these Three Books. Followed by Chapter Two, which is developed as the content of Books One, which outlines and discusses the Theory and Practice of Natural Magic,Two, which outlines and discusses the Theory and Practice of Mathematical Philosophy and Celestial Magic,and Three, which outlines and discusses the Theory and Practice of Ceremonial Magic. Chapter Three then introduces a Theoretical account of Natural Magic which continues until Chapter Thirty-four where he begins to describe the practice of Natural Magic Of the Four Elements, their Qualities, and Mutual Mixtions. Introduces the topic of the elements, chapters 3-9 One of the most important and misunderstood aspects of traditional magic is that of "Occult Virtues". Agrippa introduces them here: Of the Occult vertues of Things Developed in Chapters 10-21, of which chapters 10-14 are of critical importance. In the Nineteenth Century when Magic was being revived there were not many people who really understood how Occult Virtues fit into the philosophy and worldview of the Renaissance. When I was first reading Agrippa's first Book back in 1972-74, these chapters were to have a very strong influence on me developing a totally different view of magic and its practice than I had developed from my reading of late Nineteenth and Twentieth Century authors. How Inferior Things are Subjected to Superior Bodies, and how the Bodies, the Actions, and Dispositions of Men are Ascribed to Stars and Signs. Developed in Chapters 22-33, these are the reflections in the natural world of the subjects dealt with in Book Two. Agrippa Starts his discussion of the practice of Natural Magic with Chapter Thirty-four, which deals with how the correspondence of “inferiors” with “superiors” can be used to draw down into certain preparations of natural things. How, by Natural Things and their vertues, We may Draw Forth and Attract the Influences and vertues of Celestial Bodies. Developed in Chapters 34-39 The application of “superiors” in the “binding” of natural phenomena and other matters is a very important aspect of the practice of Natural Magic. In modern times, except for some people with, shall we say, uncommon sexual proclivities, binding probably has a bad name. There is of course a lot more to the magical art of “binding”, then is ordinarily considered, but as far as binding goes, who wouldn't want to live in a locale one found perfect, in an abode which one found “enchantingly” attractive, and do work that one found to be amazingly fulfilling? This is how spirits bound should feel about their "binding" and any binding that falls short of this is just incompetent magic, and there will be trouble in the long run. The magical system of Geomancy is the practical key to good binding. Of Bindings; what Sort they are of, and in what Ways they are wont to be Done. Developed in Chapters 40-74 However there are certain important chapters in this section that introduce important sub-topics within the subject of binding.: Introduces the subject of Divination, Of Divination, and the Kinds thereof. Developed in Chapters 53-60 Agrippa considers traditional Anthropology and Psychology here: Of the Forming of Man, of the External Senses, also those Inward, and the Mind; and of the Threefold Appetite of the Soul, and Passions of the Will. Developed in Chapters 61-68, these are expanded in significant ways in Book Three. And finally gets around to dealing with the virtue and power of words as sounds created in the natural world and which "naturally" have a strong correspondence with what is “superior” Of Speech, and the Occult vertue of Words. Developed in Chapters 69-74 The links are of course to Joseph Peterson's Twilight Grotto so that the casual reader of this thread can see what I am talking about these chapters as being important organizational points. I will also note that this post was rather hastily assembled, my apologies for any errors, but I do hope that it is useful. Edit: Under the section "Of the Occult vertues of Things", I changed difference to different. Under "Of Bindings; what Sort they are of, and in what Ways they are wont to be Done", I changed 72 to 74 in the sentence on chapters developed in that topic. Edit two: Added the sentence, "This is how spirits bound should feel about their "binding" and any binding that falls short of this is just incompetent magic, and there will be trouble in the long run." under binding to avoid any misunderstanding.