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Your entire post above is gold. And there are layers of understanding and realization, just as there are relative and absolute truth. Reading and studying alone, even a scripture as perfect as Daodejing, can only take us so far. The mind, its activity, and its contents can only take us so far. We must make room for practice, for simply being, to appreciate the wisdom hiding behind the words. And we must be patient and kind with ourselves and each other if we want to discover something new together. Although, if we trust the old masters, an occasional swift kick in the arse or thwack on the shoulder with the keisaku can be helpful too.

Sorry, but I think that is too restrictive a definition of wu wei. What if I step on a toad as I'm saving a drowning animal? I'm playing with you a little here. Forgive me.

Do you yourself understand it? How about this: Wu Wei arises is the understanding that enlightenment and the world of separateness occupy the same space, though one of them is a "deeper" reality. To a person who experiences the world as a "self", there is a world of separate objects, and a "self" with agency that interacts with them. From the experience of enlightened mind it is obvious that the separateness is a delusion, and that the unity of things takes care of itself. The way this appears is from the same perspective, but with two ways of seeing - there is still the appearance of a body that interacts with the world, but from the enlightened perspective this action is not the product of volition but the action of reality itself acting as a wholeness. No amount of reading or pouring over translations and commentaries will ever yield an understanding of the non-dual nature of reality, of which Wu Wei is only a single intellectual perspective. The broader realization isn't an intellectual understanding, and the reality of it will never match an intellectual idea about its nature. The only path to understanding Wu Wei is in having it become your permanent experience through realization.

Your words are like clean and pure water 🌳

To truly understand Wu Wei, we must consider a radically different perspective on reality. Most of us assume that we exist as separate players in an world of separate players, each making their own decisions. From the perspective of the Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind, this is a nonsense. The separateness can be seen in operation, but also is very obviously a delusion, once understood. It is pointed to here: As worded, this is a nice little joke, inside of what looks like a riddle (it isn't)... this, in my experience, is the flavor of non-duality - "its" sense of humor. When we can see "emptiness", it is clear that it is the most salient quality of all illusory things, and that what you can see in this moment is also the extent of what can be seen in this moment.This is alluded to in Dogen's (creator of the Soto Zen school) "Instructions for the Tenzo": Words are emptiness. They refer to concepts, not real things. Practice is complete presence in (non-dual) reality in this moment. This moment is everywhere/everything, there is nothing else to do - nothing is hidden. The Dao is this, here, now, without delusions of "self" and "doing" and without time/space. To be transparent and aligned with the Dao, drop the idea of doing by allowing the mind to become still, or REALIZING that the stillness of emptiness is already what permeates all experience. This field of experience "we" are enveloped in acts as a whole, not as a series of parts, and the "Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind" does it all without our input. Even our responses and intentions arise as part of the whole - aren't "ours". It appears that there is "doing", but what appears to be happening happens of its own accord, in timeless, spaceless awareness. Wu Wei is the happening of the phenomenal world without a subject/actor. The subject/actor has dropped away... things happen of their own accord, and are naturally taken care of, including the parts we might have thought "we" were doing. We aren't driving the car. A person lost in the suffering of their separateness, appears to "Dao, or Rigpa, or enlightened mind" like this: ...lost in the delusion that they are in charge. Arguments about how Wu Wei looks that involve how individual pieces on the chess board (animals/people/events) miss the fundamental point. It isn't up to "you'. It isn't about how "you" choose to act, or the kind of person "you" think you are.

...and shades of the Bahiya sutta: ...and the Heart Sutra: ...and: Truly a great document in the canon of non-dual tradtitions.

No ... because I observe that in nature ( with other animals ) .. ie. it is part of the natural world

Thanks for the vote of confidence Cobie! I´m not sure how much rescuing I´ll be up for though in the Year of the Horse; thinking of taking 2026 off. In lieu of a rescue, would you accept some dubious neidan advice (please see my contributions to the new subforum!) or an ironic personal anecdote? Those things are definitely on the docket.

The concept of "ghost in the machine" is a critic of body/mind dualism a la Descartes, but really, without body/integration or psychosomatic integration, we will never understand the meaning of Wuwei. Why ? Because it would always remain a concept separated from the body. To solve this issue we have 性命雙修 so we can transform concepts into real actions in the very real ordinary daily Life.

I just want to make myself clear, I didn't say Wu Wei, "do nothing" is the correct translation! The correct translation is let nature take its course without interfering by humans. Something one don't understand need to be explained. This is why we are having this discussionr. We should not have the attitude that a new thing didn't learn before is not acceptable. After we have ironed things out, then something new has been learned. What do you think?

You need to research the meaning of virtue.

' ... and from many sources we gather and weave all the colored threads to weave a tapestry of our own understanding ' .

Errrmmmm ... yes you are ( you just dont realize it )

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Yes, 为無为。 Wu Wei is a compound character and stand alone. The first Wei can be a single character in the phrase. The translation is "for Wu Wei." For example, I will do this for Wu Wei .

Wu Wei is a compound character. Wu Wei is a term with a philosophy behind it. The word Wu is meaningless if it was treated alone here.

I think you would also need to translate Wu in that case but it has potential.

Sound idea. I kind of decided, when I was young, to take 'this-whole-life' off. While no doubt your advice will be sound, I have decided not to read the neidan subforum. Now those are always worth reading.

What if you kill to eat?

PS It reads just like one of the 21 Nails, a dzogchen scripture. I love the connections And hell if it isn’t poetic, The highest form!

Only if you don't have a choice.

Yes, let it flow with the flow

Well, let nature take its course.

No problem. I love it. in this scenario, you have no intention to kill the frog, therefore, you are still Wu Wei. Intention is the keyword here. If you have an intention to kill the frog, then, you didn't let nature take its course. You are safe here. Let's put is this way, Wu Wei do not give you credit for good behavior. Only if you did something that cause harm to nature, then you get blame for it. So to speak.

無為 Wu wei the action of Wu instead of non-doing can be a good translation in your opinion ?

別陰陽雙修我!! 🤣😂🤣 Improving my chinese with you every day teacher 正氣龍

'' Virtue focuses on character traits and excellence (like courage, kindness), aiming for flourishing, while morality is a broader system of right vs. wrong judgments, often rooted in societal or personal rules; morality dictates what is right, whereas virtue is the habitual disposition to be good and act rightly, going beyond mere rule-following to embody moral excellence. Think of morality as the rules, and virtue as the developed character that naturally lives by those rules and strives for higher ideals. '' In ancient Greek, the word for virtue is Areté (ἀρετή), which means "excellence" or the "full realization of potential" in any kind of activity, not just morality; it signifies being the best you can be, whether that's physical prowess, wisdom, or moral goodness, leading to a flourishing life ... '' ... wait for it .... '' (eudaimonia). While it encompasses moral virtue, Areté is a broader concept of functional excellence, describing the peak quality of a person or thing ... '' .

The concept was originate from the term of Wu Wei well defined in Chapter 51 by Laotze in his TTC. It was practiced by the cultivation of the xing(mind).

Through which device comes understanding of the concept ? Body 身 or mind 心 ?

That’s meaning no. 1 … have a look at the other 30 meanings.

I’m calling to the rescue pls @liminal_luke and partner.

Well, that makes sense as the sky is always falling but heaven is not .

NOOOOOOOOOOOO ! - Old daobums joke

Thats what the Chinese guy in the restaurant toilet claimed to my friend in China as he offered him some pills ! ''Make wife very happy '' . So my friend foolishly bought them and bought them back to Australia . He tried some before going to bed with his wife . he noticed the effect ... but his wife didnt . ''It looks longer to me .'' he said . ''Not to me ... '' she said , '' You are imagining things .'' So he went to the bathroom and looked in the mirror ...it looked longer - to him ! But then as he looked around .... the curtains looked longer .... the towels on the towel rack looked longer .... his face looked longer .... Moral .... dont buy dodgy 'sex pills' in a Chinese restaurant toilet !

I’ve been through the desert on a horse with no name It felt good to be out of the rain In the desert you can remember your name ‘Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain

Happy New Year to you Luke, and to the rest of you Bums. May 2026 bring out the best in us!

Chapter 14 The invisible Tao 1. 視之不見,名曰夷。 2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。 3. 摶之不得,名曰微。 4. 此三者不可致詰， 5. 故混而為一。­ 6. 其上不皦， 7. 其下不昧， 8. 繩繩不可名， 9. 復歸於無物。 10.是謂無狀之狀， 11.無物之象， 12.是謂惚恍。 13.迎之不見其首， 14.隨之不見其後。 15.執古之道以御今之有。 16.能知古始， 17.是謂道紀。 Translated in terse English... 1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless. 2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless. 3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless. 4. These three are inseparable 5. These three objects blended in one. 6. Its top is not brilliant. 7. Its bottom is not dim. 8. Its continuance is unnameable. 9. Returned to being formless(state of invisibility), 10. Is called a form of no form. 11. An image of formless, 12. Is called obscure. 13. Greet it cannot see its head. 14. Follow it cannot see its back. 15. Grasp the presence of Tao to see all existing things, 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

I wrote this to a friend last month: My life has been 50 years trying to figure out how the zazen that gets up and walks around fits into a normal life, and likewise trying to figure out how zazen sits zazen so I can sit as long as I feel I need to sit without wrecking my knees. That became the biography inside the back cover of my book, along with: Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice. I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern. Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism. (Appendix--A Way of Living) Maybe the book would be useful to you, as a context for practice. Links to read the book online, download the book for free, or purchase a paperback copy from Amazon are here: https://zenmudra.com/a-natural-mindfulness/ Photo of the lake I live next to, Clear Lake in Northern California, for the tranquility of a winter's afternoon:

Sorry, I had left out something in the definition. In the scenario, saving an animal was not causing harm to nature. However, if you killed the animal, then you are not Wu Wei.