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This was a fascinating read. I find the sky-father deities and twin progenitors to be the weakest part of the argument. Those patterns show up in too many cultures to carry much weight on their own. I've always been interested in the appearance of a threefold pattern in the Daodejing, so that catches my eye. What intrigues me most, given my interests, is the proposed connection between Xi Wangmu, the Queen Mother of the West, and Kubala of Carchemish, Great Mother of the Mountains (and later as Cybele of Anatolia, Queen of Heaven and Earth.) I also think it's interesting that the Yijing trigram names may be Indo-European words, that the heavenly stems and earthly branches share a very old source with the Phoenician alphabet, and that Old Chinese itself may hold many Indo-European loanwords. It is clear there was real contact, influence, and exchange between these worlds. My question is, if Indo-Europeans created the Yijing and the Daodejing as distinct systems, separate from early Chinese culture, where is that system now in their own traditions? China, despite repeated waves of loss and destruction, has held onto these texts and developed their philosophy for thousands of years. If the deeper origin really lay with Indo-Europeans, where is the parallel, continuous lineage on their side? ---------------- 1. Mythological and Religious Parallels between Early China and Indo-Europeans • Sky Father Deities • Twin Progenitors and Sibling-Creators • Tripartite Functions and the Three Sovereigns • Western Paradise and the Queen Mother • Kunlun Mountain and the Cosmic Pillar • Jade, Immortality, and Steppe Connections • Foreign Ancestry of Culture Heroes 2. Linguistic and Textual Evidence (Yijing Trigrams and Language Contacts) • Yi Jing Trigram Names as Indo-European Words • Binary Structure and Yin–Yang Dualism as Indo-European Pattern • Heavenly Stems / Phoenician Alphabet Parallels • Old Chinese Loanwords from Indo-European Languages • Feudalism and Social Structure Parallels 3. Cultural and Philosophical Comparisons • Nomadic vs. Sedentary Lifestyle Fusion • Mandate of Heaven and Indo-European Moral Kingship • Chariot Technology and Warrior Aristocracy • Recording of History and Philosophical Consciousness 4. Archaeological, Genetic, and Migration Evidence • Tarim Basin Caucasian Mummies • Europoid Skulls at Anyang • Chariot and Horse Burials in Western Zhou • Steppe Cultural Motifs in Bronze, Art, and Tools • Migrations of Yuezhi, Wusun, Qiang, and Western Rong Near Zhou

Same here .... and I never went to see the movie either ! I have seen shorts on TV advertising it but never knew of the Chaos theory in it until this thread .

I’m out

yes let’s get past it - there’s an interesting discussion to be had here if we let that go.

dude let the Jurassic park thing go.

Here is the summary a few points and anyone with knowledge in a specific area , feel free to comment ; The evidence conveying that the Zhou had received Indo-European influence is as follows: • The Western Rong consisted of several Indo-European tribes. • King Wen Wang, who was from Western Yi, was the founder of the Zhou dynasty. • The Zhou and the Qiang (an Indo-European tribe) people intermarried for generations. ( I see no great significance in this as people travelled and traded waaaay back from across Kazakistan , Mongolia and further east ( 'across the top ' ) and technology passed to and from , intiermarriage might be normal through many trade routes ) • Fuxi, who may himself have been Indo-European, created the trigrams, a type of binary and tripartite system of divination, which are classical Indo-European cultural beliefs. ..... ( might make a good separate thread ? ) • There are Indo-European words (stems) in Old Chinese. The trigram names of the Yijing are one such example. ( ? ) • The connections between Huangdi, Xiwangmu, jade, Yuzhi or Yuezhi, Qiang and the Western Rong, together with the special place they hold in ancient China’s myths, demonstrate that the myths were possibly Indo-European in origin ( possibly ? • There is a large discrepancy between archaeological discoveries and classical records in terms of the beginning of agriculture. • The historical records portray a nomadic tribe struggling to accept a “civilized”—non- nomadic—life. ( seems common in a few places ) • Houji was revered perhaps because he may have introduced sophisticated agricultural ways to these semi-nomadic peoples. ( '' may have '' ) • The Zhou worshiped a Sky God, which is a core Indo-European belief. ( so did Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, Mesopotamia various Native American, Australian and other indigenous cultures ) . A level of writing adequate for creating records was developed only in the late Shang and early Zhou, and that, combined with the Zhou’s culture of an interest in recording history, is the reason we read the Zhou’s history and not that of the indigenous people. • The Zhou eventually developed a type of caste or social class system, another Indo-European trait. ( again, common elsewhere , many cultures had social classes or 'professional guilds' or divisions ) • The Zhou chariots in China present in many burials, also a Indo-European trait. ( this does seem a particular I E trait ) • The Yellow Emperor and the Zhou royal classes were connected through the name or character Ji 姬. • The Yellow Emperor used characters that hint of a chariot-like vehicle. ( hint ? )

Hey, your message was actually quite synchronictic for me. I was literally about to write that I think I unconsciously focus more on the Middle Dantian. A childhood experience came back to me that confirms this. When I grew up with a lot of violence at home, I remember going into a separate room, completely exhausted, and holding in mind that I would love everyone even if they continued harming. In that moment something opened — I felt the presence of something bigger. I felt respect for it, but also separation, and I had the sense that I might dissolve into it. There was also this feeling of being lifted up. It was powerful and graceful at the same time, but it scared me and make me feel ungrounded. (maybe because i was not centered in LDT?- At least this is my guess)The moment I mentally asked the experience to stop, it stopped. But afterward I felt irrationally joyful, and I knew that joy came directly from that experience. Later in life, when I started spiritual practice, I had similar experiences. This childhood memory explains a lot to me — it shows that my system naturally goes upward into the heart when things are overwhelming. Everytime i read or hear something awful sooner or later i focus on transcendence and surrender to get my burden lifted (that doesnt mean that i am always doing this instantly or that i am always succesful at it ) I think it was both part of my natural temperament(my two sisters doesnt responded the same way as me, while we did have some similiar experienced) and also a survival mechanism: my body instinctively opened the heart to cope with what was happening. That’s probably why I unconsciously put more effort into heart-based practices even now. i feel that in the heart i find meaning and purpose even in pain - that gives me a lot. without the LDT i cannot hold the force of the MDT and feel dissociation from the heart. Maybe the LDT is about being grounded in sensations, even pain, before i escape prematurly into the heart? maybe the LDT helps me to contain the experiences of MDT. I’m starting to see how important it is to build a stronger connection to the Lower Dantian. The heart can open, but without grounding it can become unstable or overwhelming. So I feel I need to consciously cultivate the LDT more, not to replace the heart focus, but to support it. This will be a difficult unlearning process for me Thank you for asking — your question made me reflect on this much more deeply than I would have on my own.

Yes . We could focus on this part of the definition ; '' the belief that belief itself is a tool to manipulate reality and that one can shift beliefs as needed to achieve goals. ' So, I assume , the ritual system and 'paraphernalia ' of magick is geared towards cultural belief ( hence different types of magick ; from modern western, to 'Javanese' to Buddhist , etc . ) and relies on a stong 'set' in the psyche - which is why a lot of older western magick is in the 'theater ' of Christianity (or its opposite , ie, 'demon based ' or 'sourced' ) . That is , in this situation , it is firmly entrenched in the psyche and the belief system . So can ( and how can one ) change or ;shift' belief systems so as to have them so firmly entrenched in the psyche that thay have the same 'impact ' . I doubt this part . However , the issue of belief systems 'manipulating ' realty seems better explained by 'Daimonic Reality Theory' ( ex Harpur ) seems more realistic . I 'operate' sort of like that , but my belief systems only 'validly ' changed ( ie, changed to a deep enough influence that they did 'manipulate' reality , after evidence accretion - ie . if you try something and get the same result many times , then its easier for the belief to become entrenched in the psyche to be effective . Also it broaches the whole idea of inner Vs outer influence . What are your thoughts on that ?

Is there any chance we can discuss chaos magic? Does anyone have anything intelligent to say about it?

here we go again : )

Maybe it’s a generational thing - I was aware of chaos theory for at least a decade before Jurassic park.

I agree, e.g. the Chinese already had Shangdi (上帝) I agree.

@Sanity Check what's that got to do with events taking place in 1000 BCE? In fact, this thread has completely gone off subject.

I dont think we should just take Shaun C R Ramsden's word for it and does it even matter. Indo-European is a proto-language not necessarily a culture or people. The fact that Mexican's speak Spanish does not make a spicy burrito any less tasty, nor imply that it came from madrid.

@Nungali Thanks for the summary. I wouldn't read the article since the premise is ridiculous. My own explorations in comparative mythology and history of religions back in the day convinced me that there's a direct unbroken lineage connecting indigenous Chinese proto-taoist shamanic practices and later taoist-proper developments that shaped Chinese civilization for millennia to come -- whereas no such Indo-European lineage exists within those ancient systems, outside of some very limited (and only speculative) opportunities to pick up some marginal non-indigenous ideas with trade. The commonalities between all ancient cultures stem from the fact that their creators shared one common trait, to wit, they were humans. Well, sort of... I'm partial to the origins mythologies and legends that emphasize non-human or part-human "influencers..." Fuxi is one of those, but in general early Chinese pantheon is choke-full of such characters -- as is Mesopotamian/Sumerian lore... That's where one finds the most striking similarities in mythology. But stuff like wheeled carts? Burial of nobility with all their worldly possessions that may have included those? Binary systems, in a species that is, well, anatomically mostly binary-symmetrical? Bah humbug...

All roads do seem to be pointing to this, even a lot of people saying that the best place to start with qigong is Wuji Stance and that's exactly what Flying Phoenix starts with. I'll probably test it first. Thanks for replying. No wonder you felt qi within 1 week of training. I won't be able to dedicate that amount of time everyday. More like 30 minutes a day. So I'll give it a month.

Thank you for sharing! Is there anything else you’ve discovered over the years?

Hi Wuweikt, I like the name. Welcome to the forum.

It gives a STATIC image of hexagram 39. The I Ching is the Book of CHANGES. I.e. the whole point is to use it in a way that reveals the DYNAMICS of changes. In order for hexagram 39 to "tell or suggest" anything at all to me personally (or to the person I'm performing the divination for), I need to present a particular situation and the I Ching will "translate" it into a blueprint of the configuration of energies or time and space that form it for me right now (including my own but not limited to my own.) Toward better understanding that blueprint I will present the situation in the form of inquiry, i.e. divine my best course of action (or inaction) in this particular situation -- either toward what I hope for it to develop into, or in order to avoid the outcome I don't want it to develop into. So if I draw this hexagram in a divination, this one specific hexagram out of 64, I will take it as the closest approximation of the situation I'm asking about. In the course of the divination I will determine if I've got any changing lines (learn how, it's easy). If yes, I will have to look at the resulting second hexagram - - the situation into which mine is changing if I take this course of action or inaction. Next I will have to analyze the overall hexagram 39 image and the specific place and significance of the changing lines, their position and its implications. (Learn how, it's not easy.) Strong or weak, supporting or threatening my intended course of action, promising success or warning to expect failure unless I change it. I will ignore all other lines in the hexagram because they are not related to the situation (and if I don't ignore them I might get confused with contradictions -- say line 3 promises success and line 6 guarantees failure. I need to know which one is about me right here right now, not all possible outcomes for anyone in any similar situation at any different time.) However, if I get no changing lines, I will read and contemplate the hexagram as a whole, and expect the situation to remain the same in the foreseeable future no matter what I do or refrain from doing. If there are changing lines, after studying the initial hexagram's image and the significance and meaning of the changing lines, I will move on to analyzing the second hexagram obtained, the one into which the original hexagram changes. Here the likely future outcomes are foreshadowed, giving hope or warning. I will focus on the overall image and contemplate that. And then I will consider the overall picture and decide upon the course of action I was inquiring about. A static study of the I Ching outside the process of obtaining changes in a divination is akin to studying the phone book. Remember those? The Yellow Pages? Lots of valuable information... and no meaning to you personally whatsoever, or anyone else -- unless they need to look up a particular phone number. (Except the I Ching, in a concentrated, not immediately obvious form behind the visible form, is way bigger than the Yellow Pages -- waaaay bigger... but to comprehend how big you need to "look up" just one number for starters, and try making a call to see if that number works.)

I would read that as water blocked by mountain, suggesting one should be like water: flow, don't force. Adapt to the obstacle. See boundaries and rest, then look for alternative routes.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

@PestiferMundi "-!Answer!-" 1.1. Name of the qigong training method that allowed you to feel qi energy for the first time (really important that it's the first time, as doing something comes a lot easier once you've experienced it once, and practicing other things after that first time may have only been effective because of that first time)? Flying Phoenix 1.2. If it wasn't exactly qigong (Chinese origin) but of some other origin (e.g. Korean "Sundo" or Japanese "Kiko"), what is it and where does it originate (answer all of the following questions as you would if it was a qigong method)? N/A 1.3. State the source of the qigong training method (book, course, etc. - include the author/creator name) - Not quite sure about the forum rules, but if you aren't allowed to directly link to it because it's seen as "advertising" or something else unacceptable, I'm sure you can at least just state the name of it and the name of the author/creator. DVDs and zoom lessons with Sifu Terry 2. What was the qi energy experience and what made it "undeniable" to you that it was qi energy (what distinguishes it from all the other body sensations or energetic experiences you've already had, that made you believe it was qi)? Felt like a cool menthol heat moving around my body. Not a feeling that occurs naturally. 3. What should one avoid doing during practice that may unintentionally get in the way of generating that energetic experience (if the source you stated already goes into detail about this then you can just say to refer to the source material)? Don’t overthink or be too tense, just relax 4. Were you using any herbs, drugs, or hallucinogenic substances within a week of that experience, or on the very day of that experience? No 5. How long did you practice before you first had that experience? (e.g. around 1 month)? About a week 6. How often did you practice (e.g. every day or only on weekends), how long was the practice session (e.g. 20 minutes), and how many sessions (e.g. two 20 minute sessions per day or one session)? Every day for 2 hours 7.1. Did you practice any martial arts prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)? No 7.2. If yes to Question 7.1, is the martial art you practiced directly related to the qigong method (e.g. The Yiquan martial art from my observation basically has a hardwired qigong training method - Zhan Zhuang)? N/A 8. Did you practice any kind of occult/meditative exercises prior to that qigong training method or did you practice it along-side the method, if yes then name it/them (if there is a book/course/etc. source, please state it too)? No 9. If you are willing, include any other details you think would be relevant to the training and the goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time? Practice every day 10. What are the possible risks of the method if overdone, if not done properly, or even if done properly as the method is "extreme" (assuming the practice bears such risks)? Zero 11. Does the method have advanced levels/goals after the first bare minimum goal of experiencing qi energy for the first time and what are they? (e.g. Flying Phoenix Qigong has multiple volume dvds, never tried it but if the volume 1 standing exercises allowed me to feel qi energy, the next obvious step would be to continue training it and then move onto the volume 2 seated meditations, but not all qigong methods have such a clear and outlined path so that's why I'm asking this question)? Yes, progress to the next dvds and then have lessons with Sifu Terry for the advanced practices ——————————————————— If you want to try what Flying Phoenix feels like before getting the DVDs or starting lessons with Sifu Terry, check out this video of GM Doo Wai doing the “Monk Holds Pearl” exercise: You can do it standing, seated or lying down. You can ignore the part about the ginger. Try it out and let me know how it feels!

.... The Lost Legion of Carrhae: Did a Roman Legion End Up in China? The legend begins in 53 BC with the Battle of Carrhae between the Roman general Marcus Licinius Crassus and the Parthian general Surena. Carrhae is a location near the modern-day Syrian-Turkish border. In antiquity, it was near the fringes of the Roman Empire in the west and the Parthian Empire in the east. Crassus was already one of the wealthiest men in the Roman republic, but he had a desire to access the wealth of Parthia, so he convinced the Senate to let him lead 42,000 Roman soldiers into the battlefield against the Parthians. In the battle, Crassus and his army suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Surena and his 10,000 archers. Crassus attempted to negotiate a truce but was killed in the process. According to legend, liquid gold was poured down his throat as a punishment for his greed. He was also allegedly beheaded, and his body was desecrated. Of the surviving Roman soldiers, 10,000 of them were captured alive by the Parthians. According to some accounts, they were relocated to the eastern border of the Parthian Empire. It is believed that they were most likely sent to what is now Turkmenistan. It was a Parthian custom to send prisoners of war captured in the west to the far east to secure their loyalty against their eastern rivals, the Huns. 17 years later, in 36 BC, on the western border of the Han Chinese Empire, the battle of Zhizhi was fought between the Chinese and the Huns, a classical enemy of China. The Chinese annals record mercenaries fighting on the side of the Huns who used a “fish scale” formation. The fish scale formation impressed the Chinese and they invited the soldiers to come back to China and become part of the border guard in the modern Gansu province. A city and county were also made for them which were named Li-Jien or Liqian. The Lost Legion of Carrhae and the Mysterious Army The Chinese description of the fish scale formation used by the mercenary soldiers bears a vague resemblance to the testudo formation practiced by Roman legions. This has led to the popular theory that these mysterious soldiers were in fact exiled Roman legionnaires from the Battle of Carrhae who had hired themselves out as mercenaries for the Huns. This idea was first suggested by the historian Homer Dubs. Dubs argued that some of the soldiers in exile gave up trying to go back to Rome and hired themselves out as mercenaries for local warlords in the region. Some of these former Roman soldiers may have found themselves working for the Huns in their war against the Chinese. Assessment of the Facts Is it possible that the inhabitants of the unusual village could be descendants of displaced Romans? This has attracted the interest of both Chinese and Western scientists. A genetic study from the University of Lanzhou showed that the inhabitants of the town do have connections to Europe, which makes the theory more plausible, though it is also true that the town is built along the old Silk Road so connections with western populations are more likely regardless of whether they were Roman. Another connection that has been noted is that the name “Li-Jien” sounds like “legion” when spoken in Chinese. Some have used this to argue that the name is originally derived from the word. On the other hand, many scholars have doubts about the feasibility of the hypothesis. Although it is possible that a group of Roman mercenaries could have made it all the way to western China, it is still an enormous distance. And, even though there is circumstantial evidence, there is no evidence that would confirm that Romans had been in Liqian in the past. Since Rome and China were aware of each other in antiquity, and it was possible to travel between the two empires at the time, this hypothesis is made more plausible. It is possible that a Roman legion did make it to China, but the evidence is not conclusive. The genetic findings could also be interpreted to mean that the people of the town descend from a local Caucasian population and there is no indisputable archaeological evidence of a Roman presence in the town in antiquity. https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/lost-legion-carrhae-0011019

Jurassic Park did more to popularize chaos theory and take it mainstream than any other influence. This mainstream movement may have fueled the mainstream adoption of chaos magic which according to written record occurred 10+ years after Jurassic Park was published. If you know attacks on police in the USA increased by a large percentage after NWA published their "fk the police" record. You comprehend the powerful effect pop culture has on public opinion. But its all irrelevant as I was mostly joking about all of this and you appear to have overreacted a little. There is a book published on magic that has a single page where "chaos magic" is mentioned only once in 1970 / 1984. Based on your considerable knowledge of science would you consider that evidence of a mainstream or mere fringe movement? Name something that generated more buzz about a resurgence of scottish pride in the past 50 years. Than the movie Braveheart. You can't do it. And why not? If there were a massive uptick of scots with blue face paint in soccer stadiums 10 years after Braveheart hit theaters. And I joked saying: "Its the Braveheart effect". While you furiously argued it was not. Maybe you can begin to see how its not as important a topic as you might think. Your stance here appears intended to give me more credibility. Haters irrationally being haters for no reason tends to have that effect. Its like... "omg this guy is like a celebrity, he has made it in life to where he is important enough to have actual haters". For reals? Yeahs.