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Interesting conversation (I'm sure we've all discussed this many times on this board). FWIW, we should never do just standing. Standing should be complemented by moving. So in the context of Taijiquan, if we stand (beginners should not stand for more than 5-10 minutes and slowly build up standing time) - it builds power, we should also practice a moving form to circulate the power. If people only stand, they can end up damaging their kidneys or other health problems. Another thing about standing, imho, is that the mental state is very important - one must be "sung" in the mind as well as the body.

Hey! These guys look familiar Why...that's my buddy, his son and me

While there are many different approaches to learning the lessons of static stance work, in my work with a number of different systems there seemed to be a basic, simpler stance taught as a platform with modifications built on that - as many as 20 or 30 or more. This often included different leg stances as well. I think one can go quite far in cultivation just with the simple, basic “platform” stance. In my previous comment becoming more adept at having one’s mind absorbed inside applying song and ting, opening yong quan, learning how to respond to physical and mental discomfort and both connecting with and directing the upward rising expanding energy to open the body and build energy can all be cultivated in the basic simple”wuji” stance. In the systems I am familiar with, Additions/modifications are made to the basic platform stance for specific cultivation reasons which will vary based on the art you study and how your teacher was taught. The way I learned Zhang Zhuang was as a specific application working on a specific quality after a good deal of time in basic stance and movement practices. For me the prep work enabled me to connect with the lesson. Others might emphasize ZZ more and earlier in their study for reasons relative to their art and their teacher’s experience/preference. dwai makes an important point about over reliance on static postures and the need to balance them with movement to avoid stagnation and associated health consequences. Easy to get carried away with what you like to do, whatever it is. Trying to physically impose your will on your body practicing something or at a level you are not ready for also could also lead to this and some other nasty problems as well. My yoga teacher always counseled against imposition in practice as it carried a price, sometimes a lot higher than you bargained for. There is another saying from yoga about energy work that I think is applicable here - When taming wild animals it’s usually a good idea to take your time. On balancing static practices with movement, I would emphasize that this movement include movement of the physical body with just Yi and qi (not only external physically based movements). This is important for both cultivation and health reasons.

Still enjoying these meditations after 16 years of practice 😊

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These are not staying up for long . ...

yeah! Yes, I read through your recent "Men's Business" thread, sounds interesting. Are you initiated into this,? many ritual practices are closed to outsiders, how do they keep the hippies away from the more scared elements? Fire keeper is an extremely important role. You appear to be a good mediator and jack of all trades, judging by the goings on of the festival! Well, traditionally The Great Rite would include High Priest and Priestess joining in ummm....coitus lol. Lot's of those type shenanigans with various covens tbh, helps build group power. But I suppose lowering the athame into the chalice will suffice (especially if you don't know the other people too well, or not, whatever floats your boat). Using a rubber/soap ding-dong attached to a string somehow lessens the seriousness of whatever is going on, it would be hard for me to keep a straight face in that setting. No need to buy off etsy- I make my own ritual tools, more personal that way and consecration is always far more fun...

When we used to run our festival it was 'alternative' also in the area of cost... we deliberately worked things to make it affordable to those on low income, or no income . All sorts of options could be available from signing up to being a worker or clean up team , to sneaking in, to being lax on the entry gate . If you were honest about that and 'up front' you could negotiate . But, as some are , they had a lot of money and would sneak in anyway . That started to happen too much . So one year we we blocked the old track in along the river side with all the prickle bushes, lantana , spiky branches that the field outskirts had been cleared of . I knew some people would battle their way through anyway . So at the end of that I got a little card table and chair and sat there with cash box and tickets ; people would emerge scratched and bedraggled out the 'sneak in ; only to see me there .... '' Two adults is it ? That will be $70 thank you ... by the way, there is a much easier route in if you follow the path from the car park to the front gate ''

Oooooooh doesnt it ! I have had many roles over the years .... in groups. All sorts of things ;from the Chaiperson of an LSA ( Local Spiritual Assembly in the Bahai's - they do not have clergy but an elected body of 9 to help manage the affairs of each community) to a priest in EGC , to a rather frequent Chairperson ( and implemented the whole proper 'business meeting model ' into the chaos of company meetings) of this community when I arrived 40 years back , right up to the indigenous circle / fire work I got involved with amidst the craziness of a 'hippy festival' ( which only finished yesterday ... phew ! ) But the other side ( aside from the issues ANY group has due to diverse people coming together ) can be enormous and have allowed us to put on some rather spectacular events . I prefer the term Fancy pants , ( otherwise known as 'goat leggings' ) It wasnt that fancy though, Wicca is light and it can be mostly fun . One time I was sort of thrown in to the High Priest role in a ritual that ended up being so much fun and rather crazy . For some reason the real High Priest was going to use a penis shaped 'soap - on - a rope ' .... remember them ? - soap on a rope I meant , not penises ! ..... as the wand . Oh dear . Later during this ritual I was supposed to chase the 'spring maiden' around the circle . I didnt know a lot of those people in the circle, I was visiting with people from my group and we were in another area. We had been doing a play rehersal previously and decided to go to this ritual still in costume ( characetrs included Pan , a Satyr, a Moon Goddess , a nymph, a pixie ..... we got there late and appeared out the bushes at the circle that had all these people that didnt know us ... that must have been a surprise for them ! Later I went up to the 'spring maiden ' ; ''You know, traditionally after this we would slip into the bushes and have nookie .'' , as a joke . And this innocent young woman goes ''Oh ... oh, all right then .'' Ohhhh dear ! I made the joke worse by saying it was a joke but if she was interested she could have my 'wand' as a present . and handed her my soap on a rope ... and she took it and said thank you ! I can bet you that by now ( that was many years ago) somewhere around the very hip and touristy area of Byron Bay , there is a large underground witch coven , with a High Priestess that keeps a sacred relic of her authority , handed to her by a satyr, many moons ago in a ritual , in a grove , now on her alter , concealed in a treasure box . Like all magical tools and sacred relics .... you can get em on line https://www.etsy.com/au/market/penis_soap_on_a_rope

Sure ... why not .

I have done it, ZZ was one of the very first practices I was taught, and we had to stand for 55 minutes without movement as newbies. It was not a basic form you can find online or in screenshots in this thread, or whatever nonsense Damo is teaching, like just stand and keep your arms on a certain level, no, we had to maintain full concentration on multiple aspects without internal dialogue, do proper breathing and circulate energy, at the same time as standing and holding the form static. It is a beginner-friendly practice because anyone can do it with some willpower and quality instructions, but there are plenty of practices that nobody can do. I know a few hundred practices that would require one of the following even to attempt - permanent state of samadhi, revived past incarnation, developed elemental affinity, activated third eye, a complete mastery over your astral body, a visualization skill of a certain level, or a certain density of mental bodies, that take several decades to accumulate via secret methods that cannot be found in any kind of book in this world. Those above would certainly not be beginner practice. Legitimate Daoist teachings would have something similar in terms of progression, like practices that cannot be performed without a fully activated lower dantien. There is a difference between natural restrictions or prerequisites, and simply gatekeeping and peddling slop, trying to sell it as "ancient Taoist wisdom".

A silly bait for views Any good system has a progression of practices, where one practice would eventually flow into another. It is not a collection of do this and that, for unknown reasons. You may not be able to gain significant benefits and excel with advanced practices until you complete your milestones/attainments with beginner practices. Being a beginner, advanced, or more is always a relative term; if you start from something and then move to a more advanced form that you could not do before, that is called progression. That progression could vary a lot from system to system. In kindergarten, learning basic calculus would really be "advanced practice", while at the Ph.D level in sciences, if you do not know maths, you will be considered mentally impaired. The end of one cultivation system could be the very beginning of another one. Most people I have observed are unable to maintain their concentration uninterrupted for 30 minutes. That is the bare minimum duration for a practice. That is why they have to go and learn proper foundations and work their way through a range of practices step by step. You cannot skip the foundations or progression, or you will forever be stuck in a place of nowhere. P.s. If it is not clear, I do consider ZZ or standing post a beginner practice.

Admission prices can ruin things, many years ago I wanted to take my young daughter to a circus that was in town; it would be fun and of some excitement but when we got to the admission gate the price was way high which pissed me off and I didn't pay. Anyway 'they' know the have got most people with leverage since most people would just cave and pay their price since its for their kid. At other events and at other times I did pay but not that day.

I quoted six different unrelated methods that shared the same physical approach to wuji. Sahaja explained the idea really nicely. You start with wuji, you end with wuji...but if your wuji is doing nothing, then you get nothing from it

Those were the only AI edits on my timeline. That weren't political.

Yes please! I'm game to learn

Mhm, reading through this thread and the most recent quotes, I'm thinking about running this rite, for balance and experience. I feel you- my lunar workings are a little heavy, about to start some lunar work this evening actually! I'm not too well acquainted with my chart lol, although I have a Joyti chart that I refer back to quite a bit. Yes, I really love many elements of Wicca, I loosely follow some of the rites and rituals. Group work can be a lot of fun and prosperous, but it comes with its own issues as well lol. High Priest, eh? fancy. I love this result. I often times tend to focus on the negative, though I do try to practice gratitude in a daily ritual for me, whether it's just giving thanks to the beautiful sky, La Luna, the foliage, etc. Yes, I was reading about the differences earlier today. I've done some Nuit/Nut ritual work, using Thelemic themes as a starting point. I'm usually pretty heterodox in my ritual design and execution lol, always putting my own spin on things and making the work more personal and from my perspective! "Well, wings help us fly " <<Soaring>> Above, the gemmèd azure is The naked splendour of Nuit; She bends in ecstasy to kiss The secret ardours of Hadit. The wingèd globe, the starry blue Are mine, o Ankh-f-n-Khonsu. I am the Lord of Thebes, and I The inspired forth-speaker of Mentu; For me unveils the veiled sky, The self-slain Ankh-f-n-Khonsu Whose words are truth. I invoke, I greet Thy presence, o Ra-Hoor-Khuit! Unity uttermost showed! I adore the might of Thy breath, Supreme and terrible God, Who makest the gods and death To tremble before Thee: — I, I adore thee! Appear on the throne of Ra! Open the ways of the Khu! Lighten the ways of the Ka! The ways of the Khabs run through To stir me or still me! Aum! let it kill me! * The Light is mine; its rays consume Me: I have made a secret door Into the House of Ra and Tum, Of Khephra, and of Ahathoor. I am thy Theban, o Mentu, The prophet Ankh-f-n-Khonsu! By Bes-na-Maut my breast I beat: By wise Ta-nech I weave my spell. Show thy star-splendour, O Nuit! Bid me within thine House to dwell, O winged snake of light, Hadith! Abide with me, Ra-Hoor-Khuit! I'm really digging this quote, thank you for posting it. I have some research to do..Thank you!

there’s lots to unpack in this - might start a thread on it - what do you think?

You say the whole process so well. As to the end of exercises Wuji, I would recommend to everyone if they are not already doing so. A few minutes (say 3) would be sufficient.

Sharing my experience which may differ from others - hope people find it useful. When I first learned static postures many years ago my martial arts instructor called them mental forms. There were many different ones, some quite complicated and challenging to hold for even a short time. I initially thought this term “mental form” meant just having enough mind to overcome the physical discomfort of holding the position to physically develop the body and develop power.. Later I realized in much longer stances& seats there is also a mental urge to stop from boredom and do something (anything) else that also was a challenge to overcome and was different than just overcoming the physical discomfort . Over many years I was exposed to static stance training from a number of teachers and systems in qi gong, martial arts and even in yoga. My understanding is that many systems have a “wuji” type stance (simple stance without much external complexity) to start the body change process. My understanding is that at a basic level what this entails is hanging flesh from the bones while using the mind to ting (listen) and song (release tension in the tissue & mind ) This involves essentially turning off tension/contraction in the large muscle groups as much as possible while maintaining the skeletal structure fully erect. This “relaxed’ stretching of the internal connective tissue from gravity has a different quality of development associated with it than normal external stretching or stressing muscle tissue through resistance. This can lead to the development/connection of the tissue lattice network of the internal “wetsuit” making energetic connections between parts of the body not normally connected possible (e.g hand/palm to lower abdomen, etc) My experience is this also can lead to internal energetic efficacy of hand mudras and various other hand positions as well. “Wuji” can be used as a stand alone position with the weight fully sunk to the feet to open yongquan and connect with the earth. Depending on how the foot is used, this opening can also develop the lower Dan tian and even commence its rotation. . This opening of the feet (yongquan, etc) can lead to the flow of energy/force up from the feet to shoulders and arms (or head). This energetic flow can expand and internally open the legs, kua, back, spine, shoulders and arms and is part of what makes the ZZ arm position magic work. “Wuji” is also used as a position to hold at the end of practice to allow the previous practice’s internal mechanisms to continue to work in the body. “Wuji” simple stance can work a bit like a blank sheet of paper that due to lack of much complex structure, while maintaining the relaxed internal connective tissue stretch, allows these internal processes to continue with little interference. Obviously “wuji” basic stance is used in conjunction with many, many other practices but in my understanding it is very important in the overall process of internal development. To balance this internal work it’s very important to also develop the external body (muscles, joints, bones etc) through more conventional exercise. I am sure other’s experience varies - just sharing my own.

Wuji - the ball holding standing is not the simplest one. The "Quiet and Pure" Standing is before that. It is with 2 hands drop to the sides of the body, somewhat like having an intention to pressing the ground but not actually doing it. The Ball Holding stance is getting some unfavourable attention these days. Because it looks like holding a book, a newspaper or nowadays a phone in front of you. This posture can create similar problems as using phones too much. I do think newbies should practise ZZ for a short duration e.g. 5-10 minutes, usually after the Taichi or Qigong exercises completed. It is for knowing how to align yourself; and resting into stilling the mind. In the longer term, the system you choose will dictate how long you need to stand. If a person cannot stand too long, then pick another system.

Edit: just for clarification, this is an extract from Inside Zhan Zhuang by Mark Cohen. Apologies to the author, but he's probably able to better express the point than me. On a personal level, I'm also opposed to black and white, absolutist positions on this subject. Maybe zhan zhuang is inappropriate for some beginners, and less so for others. Maybe wuji is better for some beginners, maybe less so for others. The importance is listening to your own body and responding appropriately. And always exercise critical thinking when it comes to Internet authorities.

This is how a beginner does. There is no such thing as not for beginners. Otherwise, where would a beginner start to do something.

Saw this, and it felt a bit like gatekeeping. It's the most powerful form of qigong out there, and is not locked behind an academy paywall and a guru-like teacher. I switched now to just standing and nothing else on energetics. 40mins in ball holding pose, as recommended in Marc Cohen's book Inside Zhan Zhuang. My body becomes more supple, looser as the time progresses, not harder or stiffer. An important part of that is body scanning and allowing knots of tension to release. There are experiences when tension and hardness suddenly dissolve, after which the body feels light and soft. I would advise trying it for yourself. If you feel stiffer and more stuck, as Damo intimates, then switch to wuji or moving forms. But don't take his word as gospel, without trying for yourself.

The benefit one can get from Wuji is to relax the body. Why does one want to keep the body in motion all the time?