How empty is no emptiness meditation?

[Brad M]

Thanks @stirling.  I was not aware that you were a Zen/Dzogchen teacher, and that was helpful to me in understanding your response.  Have often though about the similarities between Zazen and Dzogchen, though surely for another thread.  Hope you have a good day.

[dwai]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, you have already let all know you are a this and or that teacher several times , so I'd say there is no need to keep tooting your horn along that line.

Why this line of combativeness? What is it that rankles you about stirling’s posts? 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

umm, you have already let all know you are a this and or that teacher several times , so I'd say there is no need to keep tooting your horn along that line.

 

I appreciate you thinking of me Bob, but I feel that it is fine in context. 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I appreciate you thinking of me Bob, but I feel that it is fine in context. 

 

well then you could change your handle to Teacher Stirling

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Why this line of combativeness? What is it that rankles you about stirling’s posts? 

 

Maybe somebody  knows?

[dwai]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

Maybe somebody  knows?

A feeling deep within you that makes you question your beliefs and your ego reacts? 

[stirling]

9 hours ago, old3bob said:

well then you could change your handle to Teacher Stirling

 

It seems that I am unlikely to write posts that you find satisfactory. It is honestly OK to block me if something about my posts seems to upset you, Bob.

Edited December 19, 2023 by stirling

[dwai]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It seems that I am unlikely to write posts that you find satisfactory. It is honestly OK to block me if something about my posts seems to upset you, Bob.

Mostly I’ve noticed that those who react in such a manner are the ones in need of introspection. The way I see it, it boils down to one of two options -

 

1. Is their conviction about some other contrary point of view so weak that a post (or even several) will provoke them to react ?

 

2. Is it possible that the words that provoke them are causing some kind of cognitive dissonance that they have to protest against? “A case of, me doth think that thou dost protesteth too much…” 

[Maddie]

Just now, dwai said:

Mostly I’ve noticed that those who react in such a manner are the ones in need of introspection. The way I see it, it boils down to one of two options -

 

1. Is their conviction about some other contrary point of view so weak that a post (or even several) will provoke them to react ?

 

2. Is it possible that the words that provoke them are causing some kind of cognitive dissonance that they have to protest against? “A case of, me doth think that thou dost protesteth too much…” 

 

When we see our view as part of our identity then we see the rejection of those views as a rejection of the self, which leads to all sorts of emotional reactions.

 

When we see views as just views and not "our views" then if someone rejects the view it really isn't a big deal. 

[Cobie]

Imo these methods are meant for introspection; and not for shutting up other people to protect your own ego. 
 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Cobie

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

A feeling deep within you that makes you question your beliefs and your ego reacts? 

 

Holy Cow and Jesus Christ, I suggest not so much over thinking...dudes or whatever term you prefer... 

[Cobie]

.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Cobie

[thelerner]

Guess my target these days is a quiet mind.  Concepts like Void and emptiness conflict w/ my Western upbringing or maybe too hard.   

 

In any case, the fruit of a quiet mind is rest and rejuvenation.  In sleep, the deep sleep is considered the most rejuvenating (though all levels play a role well being), in every day consciousness, quietness- doesn't waste our energy.  

 

I was just on a long car ride, 5 ½ hours, no radio, no conversation, just quiet.. was nice.  Could probably write a book or blog about it, perhaps get sponsored by some petrol company.   

Edited December 21, 2023 by thelerner

[exorcist_1699]

Some ideas on the posts above :

 

1) " When I do emptiness meditation, counting my breaths, or observing my mind, there is emptiness(except for small monkeys) but no sense of bliss or emotional content whatsoever. It gets boring. " So, there is something in the background which counts , which  observes, which expects ... , in that case, hardly can it be  anything  an emptiness meditation for a lot of minds stuck there . And,  if it is not empty and pure enough, then unlikely can anything lively  be nourished from it ;  people will then sooner or later find their  "emptiness meditation" boring , unable to continue.

 

2) Instead of talking about those personal experiences, higher level and dimensions stuffs, people should try using how well no-mind meditation cure disease and aging symptoms on their  bodies as criteria  for they are more  realistic , objective enough to be  measured , and are free from self-deception .

 

3)The skills of being no-mind , then erase it as being no-skill , no-way is crucial to our cultivation, both spiritual and physical ,  for they should not be separated as some pro-Buddhist ways do . It is something indispensable , just like electricians' abilities of measuring voltage , current on circuits to isolate electric failures and web programmers' abilities of writing HTML, CSS and  JS codes . Unable to jump freely  on different levels of attention, abstraction or attachment, whatever you call it, blocks people from understanding what genuine cultivation is .

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Master Logray]

11 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

2) Instead of talking about those personal experiences, higher level and dimensions stuffs, people should try using how well no-mind meditation cure disease and aging symptoms on their  bodies as criteria  for they are more  realistic , objective enough to be  measured , and are free from self-deception .

 

 

How do you use no-mind to achieve some other objectives?   You practically lose control.  Even from an observer viewpoint, you cannot set the course for anything?

[Brad M]

48 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

How do you use no-mind to achieve some other objectives?   You practically lose control.  Even from an observer viewpoint, you cannot set the course for anything?

 

Is a relaxed and calm mind the same as an empty mind?

 

My experience is that the mind is never really empty or blank.  Thoughts (and other things) are constantly arising.  If my mind is relaxed, however, I can come to regard thoughts (and everything else) as empty.  Thoughts are nothing and the same is true for all other mental phenomenon. With that recognition, I can release the thoughts (and other things) as quickly as they arise and not grasp onto them...  and just kind of chill...  My "course of action" recently has been "no course of action," though to your point, getting there still requires a periodic thought that I am following "no course of action."   I let this thought arise, and like all others, I make a note of it and move on, or at least that is what I try to do.  

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 No-mind would be messy indeed as the mind e.g. is used for bowel control.  
 

Maybe not.. the body has wisdom.  After decision making we can return to quiet.  How long does decision making take?  If wise enough, Dao enough, can we leave it the subconscious mind?  

 

There are those who make right decisions effortlessly.  Almost without thought.  In near perfect flow with the world.  And when not perfect, accept consequences and circumstances with stoicism.  Not me ofcourse, I stub a toe and call down blasphemous curses upon the object I bumped.  

[Cobie]

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Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[thelerner]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

Not a “Western” thing. Kenosis (empty) is an important concept in Christianity. Jesus emptied his own desires, becoming entirely receptive to God's divine will. (Philippians 2:7)

Seems like the guy was more Middle-Eastern than Western, like myself.

 

I've never seen Jesus in a cowboy hat.. except for that one time in El Paso.   

[Master Logray]

7 hours ago, Brad M said:

 

Is a relaxed and calm mind the same as an empty mind?

 

My experience is that the mind is never really empty or blank.  Thoughts (and other things) are constantly arising.  If my mind is relaxed, however, I can come to regard thoughts (and everything else) as empty.  Thoughts are nothing and the same is true for all other mental phenomenon. With that recognition, I can release the thoughts (and other things) as quickly as they arise and not grasp onto them...  and just kind of chill...  My "course of action" recently has been "no course of action," though to your point, getting there still requires a periodic thought that I am following "no course of action."   I let this thought arise, and like all others, I make a note of it and move on, or at least that is what I try to do.  

 

 

It is about levels.  Relaxed mind starts to be empty.  Empty mind is empty of conscious thinking.  No mind means we no longer feel mind activities.   Then comes sleep and coma.   These are what we observed and classified.  But sometimes coma people can recall what happened during their coma.  It shows the mind is never totally empty.  

 

Thoughts as empty.  It is new to me. 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

no one has mentioned or used the term super conscious mind or mind in its most pure and powerful state, which is a very major and important aspect!  (and is far beyond the conscious mind, thoughts, the sub conscious, trance, and unconscious coma like states;  or the Buddhist folks just use other or what to me are more potentially confounding terms like empty!)

Edited December 23, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:52 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

1) " When I do emptiness meditation, counting my breaths, or observing my mind, there is emptiness(except for small monkeys) but no sense of bliss or emotional content whatsoever. It gets boring. " So, there is something in the background which counts , which  observes, which expects ... , in that case, hardly can it be  anything  an emptiness meditation for a lot of minds stuck there . And,  if it is not empty and pure enough, then unlikely can anything lively  be nourished from it ;  people will then sooner or later find their  "emptiness meditation" boring , unable to continue.

 

I'm not sure what the particulars are of your practice, but in Dzogchen or Shikantaza we drop the object of meditation (breath, for example) and just observe reality as it is without engaging with what arises in it, whether it be thoughts or feelings, etc. What typically happens is that sukkha and piti arise in the body and mind, which are both comfortable and blissful. Boredom only arises where there is mental activity and meditation has dropped out.  The point of this meditation is that it is the same as the underlying enlightened mind, and can be used as a clear playing field for generating insight into the nature of mind, or reality.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 9:52 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

2) Instead of talking about those personal experiences, higher level and dimensions stuffs, people should try using how well no-mind meditation cure disease and aging symptoms on their  bodies as criteria  for they are more  realistic , objective enough to be  measured , and are free from self-deception.

 

While I am sure there are documented health benefits from meditation, what is being worked on (in Buddhism anyway) is working to drop what obscures our seeing the underlying way things truly are. Insight (awakening/satori/enlightenment) sees through the reality of the body, disease, aging, etc. and is innately free of "self" and deception.

 

Quote

Therefore, in emptiness,

no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;

no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;

no sights, sounds, odors, tastes, objects of touch, objects of mind;

no realm of sight and so on up to no realm of consciousness;

no ignorance and no end of ignorance, and so on up to no aging and death, and no end of aging and death;

no suffering, accumulation, cessation, or path; no wisdom and no attainment. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

This is something that can be demonstrated with a meditation instructor of sufficient realization and isn't really even complicated to see. 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/28/2005 at 8:28 PM, thelerner said:

I'm a firm believer that a quiet mind is the essential first step in any meditative regime and that emptiness, non directed or just sitting meditation practice is the best way to get there.

 

I don't think that it is the end. Or maybe it is, but I do see a real need for a mountain of stuff and techniques inbetween.

 

When I do emptiness meditation, counting my breaths, or observing my mind, there is emptiness(except for small monkeys) but no sense of bliss or emotional content whatsoever. It gets boring.

 

I guess thats the point ofcourse. But I get the feeling I need to do some of the inner smile work, so that an echo of it lasts through the emptiness. To have something pleasant in the background.

 

Thoughts? How has your emptiness meditation evolved over the years?

 

Peace

 

Michael
 

I realize that you posted this in 2005, and that your practice has changed.  Nevertheless.  

To the first part of your concern, "techniques in between":

 

A friend of mine recommended a particular approach to practicing musical scales.  She starts with the minor scale from a particular note, for example D minor.  She follows with the major scale (D major), and then the relative minor of that major key (B minor).  She continues in this fashion four rounds, then picks up the next day with the next minor.  In three days, she’s made a circuit of scales.

I”ve tried in the past to practice scales, but found myself giving up in short order.  The organization in her approach is helpful to me, and though I’m not practicing as regularly as she does (she’s a performing musician, as well as a teacher), I have begun to practice.

 

I wrote to my friend:

 

The striking thing to me about my experience on the cushion these days is that I am practicing some kind of scales, as it were.  Gautama outlined the feeling of four states, the initial three and then the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind”, the fourth.  I’ve described that “pureness of mind” as what remains when “doing something” ceases, and I wrote:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

The interesting part is that according to Gautama, the ease which accompanies the first three states ceases in the fourth, and it’s only the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind” that remains, along with a feeling like a cloth covering the head and the entire body (the cloth I think describes an ease in the nerve exits along the sacrum and spine, such that the dermatomes along the surface of the skin are sensitized).

The rest of the scales are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness" (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised). 

The third state is the one where the sages reside, according to Gautama.  That makes the third state a standout, even if the fourth state is the major cessation (the cessation of “doing something” in activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation), and even if cessation is the cornerstone of the mindfulness that made up Gautama’s way of living.

Regarding the states, Gautama said, "whatever one imagines them to be, they are otherwise."  I remind myself of the freedom of attention to shift and move, that freedom being the agency of the unfolding of my true nature.
 

 

I don't experience bliss, just an ease--again, from the letter to my friend:
 

In my last post, I wrote: 

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”’. 

 

I begin to see that as I gain faith in action out of the placement of attention, I can find a feeling of ease, a feeling that I can extend “so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this… ease” (a characteristic Gautama ascribed to the first three meditative states).

 

Enabling the rentention of a hynagogic state, as it were--the ease of falling asleep, while yet awake.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Mark Foote

[ChiDragon]

I don't see what I see.
I don't hear what I hear.
That is the ultimate emptiness in meditation.