Chapter One of the TTC

[steve]

10 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

The characters here are:

 

 

Twice the translator had to chose a meaning for 道 . The listing for 道 in Kroll:

~~~<>~~~
dao4

~~~<>~~~

1. way that leads somewhere, road,

route, pathway, passage.

2. the Way; as image suggesting how things actually exist, fundamental reality, 
a constant Way in which the diverse ways of living and relating are essentially balanced and whole.

a. conceptual term used by all schools of thought, 

with same root metaphor but varying connotations:

Confucian 
‘Way’ incl. norms of social responsibility and personal conduct

exemplified by ideal worthies such as King Wen of the Zhou, the Duke of Zhou, etc.;

Dao. 
‘Way’ points to absolute and ineffable reality

behind flux and modalities of the world, and advisability of taking it as model; 

Budd. 
‘Way’ incl. possibility of release from the round-of-birth-and-death

(samsara) and recognition of contingent and impermanent nature of human existence.

b. 道士
dao4 shi4
gentleman of the Way,

exemplar of the Confucian ‘Way’;

 

also,

expert in the ‘Way’, specialist in occult or mantic practices, syn. 方士 fang4 shi4;

 

also (med.),

Daoist adept, usu. associated with an organised Dao. community (see 5a below), priest.

 

N.B.

Contrast these with (med) 道人 dao4 ren2, man of religion, a Budd. monk (not Dao.).

3. way of doing something,
course of action, method, proper procedure, practice;

 

e.g. 

 

所以 求 之 之 道

suo3 yi3 qiu2 zhi1 zhi0 dao4,

the means by which one seeks it;

 

道場

dao4 chang2,

place of practice, arena of the Way, altar, Budd. or Dao. chapel.

 

a. guiding road, rule of conduct, 

principle, guidelines.

b. doctrine,

tenets, dicta; teachings.

c. (Budd.) the Buddha-path,

path to enlightenment.

4. skill or art of a particular kind,

specialisation.

5. ideas and teachings 
esp. associated with the texts Zhuangzi and Laozi (or Daodejing); 

e.g.

 

道家

dao4 jia1,

lineage of the Way, 
bibliographic category ref. to these and related texts, often defined as ‘philosophical Daoism’ in contrast to next.

a. practices

esp. associated with movements and texts relating to masters of self-cultivation, pursuit of immortality,

and various organised religious communities,

esp. those ultimately deriving from the Way of the Celestial Masters

(tiashidao 天 師 道 [tian1 shi1 dao4]) founded in mid-2nd-c. CE;

 

e.g.

 

(med.) 

道教

dao4 jiao4,

teaching of the Way,

from early 5th-c. CE a term assoc. with groups and texts just described,

often defined now as ‘religious Daoism’.

 

6. say, speak; 

express, communicate orally; cue.

 

7. circuit, administrative area

outside the usu. prefecture/district (junxian 郡縣 [jun4 xian4 prefecture county]) structure;

in Han times ref. frontier areas mainly populated by non-Chinese;

in Tang times also ref. frontier area

but from 706 on more importantly to large units of province size throughput the state,

each of which (10 at first) incl. many prefectures and governed by special commissioners (shi 使 [shi3 sent]).

 

8. (med.) understand,

be aware of; think, presume. 
 

a. (med.) expect; 

have a sense that X is likely to happen. 
 

~~~<>~~~
dao3

~~~<>~~~

 

1. (interchangeable) 導 dao3

 

1. lead, lead the way, 

show the way; conduct, guide.  
 

~~~
 

Even after filtering out (e.g. ‘med.’, ‘Budd.’), I will still be left with a plethora of choices.

 

 

 

Is it often that the same character is used twice in a line having different meanings? 

[ChiDragon]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Is it often that the same character is used twice in a line having different meanings? 

Oh, yes. Especially in classic. For example:

Chapter 71 
1. 知不知,
2. 尚矣；
3. 不知知，
4. 病也。
5. 聖人不病，
6. 以其病病。
7. 夫唯病病，
8. 是以不病。 

1. One who knows what he doesn't know.
2. Is the best.
3. One who doesn't know but thinks he knows.
4. It's a sickness.
5. A wise man has no sickness.
6. He treated sickness as a sickness.
7. Because he knows his sickness as a sickness.
8. Hence, he has no sickness.

Edited 5 hours ago by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

@steve I think so, yes. And keeping to the same meaning imo makes the verse meaningless. 
 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Cobie

[心神 ~]

Quote

to grok its quale

 

Most of this topic is beyond me. But as a lifelong, native English speaker, I feel confident in asserting that almost no native English speaker would choose this phrasing, least of all if the intent is to be clear as possible. “Grok” and “quale” are abstract, philosophical jargon.

 

A clearer phrasing might be: “to intimately understand the inner experience.”

 

[ChiDragon]

29 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

A clearer phrasing might be: “to intimately understand the inner experience.”

I would like to hear from you. How you rephrase these two lines and include Tao in your thought?

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[steve]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Oh, yes. Especially in classic. For example:

Chapter 71 
1. 知不知,
2. 尚矣；
3. 不知知，
4. 病也。
5. 聖人不病，
6. 以其病病。
7. 夫唯病病，
8. 是以不病。 

1. One who knows what he doesn't know.
2. Is the best.
3. One who doesn't know but thinks he knows.
4. It's a sickness.
5. A wise man has no sickness.
6. He treated sickness as a sickness.
7. Because he knows his sickness as a sickness.
8. Hence, he has no sickness.

 

In these examples the character translates the same in each case.

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

“Grok” and “quale” are abstract, philosophical jargon.

 

Don't you think that the TTC is what it is?

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In these examples the character translates the same in each case.

Thank you for your attention. Let's me try another example.

Edited 4 hours ago by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

30 minutes ago, steve said:

In these examples the character translates the same in each case.

3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

 

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

Actually, line 3 and 4, '有' and '無' was treated as a noun. Most Chinese characters have a sound and meaning.  Laotze was killing two birds with one stone. The these two characters was used to name Tao. It also with an implication of what state that Tao was in.

Lines 5 and 6 '有' and '無' as adjectives.  
常無: always not there, it didn't imply it doesn't exist. 
常有: always there

Edited 3 hours ago by ChiDragon

[心神 ~]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I would like to hear from you. How you rephrase these two lines and include Tao in your thought?

 

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

 

In maintaining your perspective, I might rephrase it as:

 

“When the Tao is unseen,

     one observes its inner mystery.

When the Tao is seen,

     one observes its outer edge.”

 

This sharply contrasts the inner mystery with the outer edge. Outer boundary still works well though, I think. Another option is:

 

“When the Tao is sensed,

     one observes its inner mystery.

When the Tao is known,

     one observes its outer edge.”

 

This carries the idea that conceptual knowledge interferes with intuitive sensing. Sensed takes the place of unseen, knowing takes the place of seen. This version is visually more abstract, but possibly clearer in an experiential sense.

 

I've always been partial to Wayne Dyer’s translation:

 

“Ever desireless,

     one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring,

     one sees only the manifestations.”

 

I appreciate this one, because it seems to hold the idea that healthy detachment leads to harmony with the Way, and unhealthy attachment leads to disharmony with the Way.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by 心神 ~

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

Ever desireless,

     one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring,

     one sees only the manifestations.”

Yes! You may appreciate this translation. However, the logic does hold here in describing the presence of Tao.
Whose desire? Desire for what? Do we need a great deal of desire to see the mystery of what?

[心神 ~]

16 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes! You may appreciate this translation. However, the logic does hold here in describing the presence of Tao.
Whose desire? Desire for what? Do we need a great deal of desire to see the mystery of what?

 

My understanding of this translation is that desire interferes with seeing and experiencing the mystery of the Tao. Desire blocks the mystery; it doesn’t enable it. ‘Whose desire’ and ‘desire for what’ aren’t central here, because the contrast is between desiring and not desiring. From this perspective, desire (ultimately attachment) is a grasping mind-state that pulls attention toward outer edges and surfaces, which makes the subtle harder to perceive.  

 

Edited 2 hours ago by 心神 ~

[Nintendao]

On 12/24/2025 at 7:30 PM, ChiDragon said:

5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

I like the word grok for its similarly to guān

 

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

My understanding of this translation is that desire interferes with seeing and experiencing the mystery of the Tao. Desire blocks the mystery; it doesn’t enable it. ‘Whose desire’ and ‘desire for what’ aren’t central here, because the contrast is between desiring and not desiring. From this perspective, desire (ultimately attachment) is a grasping mind-state that pulls attention toward outer edges and surfaces, which makes the subtle harder to perceive.  

 

Okay! I respect your thinking. How about for those who do not the desire but still see the mystery? Therefore, with or without desire, one will still see the mystery anyway. 

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。

 

4 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

I like the word grok for its similarly to guān

Thank you for your thought!
Good idea, but Tao is observable at this time, therefore there is no need to grok now. 

[心神 ~]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Okay! I respect your thinking. How about for those who do not the desire but still see the mystery? Therefore, with or without desire, one will still see the mystery anyway. 

 

If your example is someone with no desire who intuitively senses the mystery, that doesn’t challenge the premise, it supports it: desire blocks the mystery, and not having desire is what allows the mystery to be perceived.

 

[ChiDragon]

12 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

If your example is someone with no desire who intuitively senses the mystery, that doesn’t challenge the premise, it supports it: desire blocks the mystery, and not having desire is what allows the mystery to be perceived.

 

It wasn't a challenge. Loatze was only suggesting how to observe Tao objectively. 

Special note: We must observe the rule of Wu Wei. Loatze advocated everything to be conducted objectively. It is the principle of TTC.

Edited 1 hour ago by ChiDragon

[Lairg]

49 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

My understanding of this translation is that desire interferes with seeing and experiencing the mystery of the Tao.

 

My observation is that  uncontrolled desire operates at a much lower level than that at which the Dao penetrates Existence.  Thus the desiring human needs help to perceive the flow of the Dao

 

 

 

 

[心神 ~]

17 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It wasn't a challenge. Loatze was only suggesting how to observe Tao objectively. 

Special note: We must observe the rule of Wu Wei. Loatze advocated everything to be conducted objectively. It is the principle of TTC.

 

Yes, that's how I read it as well, as guidance on how to observe the Tao more objectively. Still only referencing the Wayne Dyer translation, the method is reducing desire so attention isn’t pulled toward outcomes and surfaces. That aligns with wuwei as non-grasping.

 

My point is only that your assertion ‘therefore with or without desire one can see the mystery’ doesn’t apply in the context of the translation we're discussing. But it sounds like we agree on the practical takeaway, even if we’re using different words for it.