elephant in the room

[old3bob]

 

I'd say the extreme reactionary denial or nixing of politics at this site is more or less baloney...  the problem is not politics although how such is discussed can become so.  There are aspects of "politics" in various forms in everything, including the  air we breathe and the water we drink.  (via environmental issues or through politics related to same carried out by mankind)  There are politics of various forms in all religions and spiritual ways since mankind is involved.  Religions and spiritual ways are not divorced from politics, their leaders and students need the ability to exist safely in this world which is not possible in a vacuum of non-politics among human beings.  So I'd say its time to get real on the subject which is really covered/protected by the already existing site guidelines for interactions among members...thus the knee-jerking should stop if someone dares to bring up things that affect all of us...and which may be uncomfortable to some.

  

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:06 PM by old3bob

[Master Logray]

I also think no politics in this site is a reasonable approach.   The only problem is the DDJ and Yellow Emperor teachings are directly concerning governance or politics; or using politics as metaphor.     

[BigSkyDiamond]

just as divinity has no gender, so too divinity has no politics.

same for enlightenment, awakening.  They are not predicated upon politics.

 

a person can live their life with no involvement (no interest in, no participation in) for instance professional sports, bonsai cultivation, or wine tasting.  Those hobbies can and are totally off the radar for many many many people.  Those specific hobbies are not a requirement for daily life, for contentment, for self development, or for walking a path of religion and spirituality.

 

So too for the hobby of politics. A person can live their life with no involvement, interest, or participation  in poltics.  If it is however  a prominent element in a person's life that causes disturbance, friction, contention, or upset for them, then what becomes relevant is how their chosen path of religious-spiritual practice has them deal with whatever it is they find upsetting in their daily life.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:56 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

10 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

just as divinity has no gender, so too divinity has no politics.

same for enlightenment, awakening.  They are not predicated upon politics.

 

a person can live their life with no involvement (no interest in, no participation in) for instance professional sports, bonsai cultivation, or wine tasting.  Those hobbies can and are totally off the radar for many many many people.  Those specific hobbies are not a requirement for daily life, for contentment, for self development, or for walking a path of religion and spirituality.

 

So too for the hobby of politics. A person can live their life with no involvement, interest, or participation  in poltics.  If it is however  a prominent element in a person's life that causes disturbance, friction, contention, or upset for them, then what becomes relevant is how their chosen path of religious-spiritual practice has them deal with whatever it is they find upsetting in their daily life.

 

 

I'd say politics in various forms in various areas  is a lot bigger than such a narrow definition as you imply.

Yea there is that which is beyond form and human beings, but 99.99 % of what is going on with people on the earth is in various ways is related to politics.  (which is not just a hobby beneath an above all attitude!)

[Krenx]

The problem with discussing politics, is that it is stacked with too many piles of lies and misinformation everywhere you turn. So two people discussing it in this day and age, will be working with totally different sets of facts. 

 

It is unhelpful to draw any relationship between the political world, and the spiritual philosophies, if facts/whole realities of situations, are inaccurate from the start.

 

It is by design this has happened. To stack lies and deceit in both sides so high that you cannot even begin honest conversations. It is impossible for two well intention individuals to begin any useful discussion, when they are speaking from totally different realities.

 

One has to iron out the realities first before even proper political conversations can happen. If not there is no benefit, and absolute waste of time, and every word uttered in the topic is just falling deeper I to the traps of lies laid out by extremely evil people who created the whole mess from the very beginning.  

 

Is it worth the effort to uncover all these lies? We do our best. But we will never keep up. The ones who lies and misleads the public will always be one step ahead in the world to harm, a thousand fold step towards the woeful realms. The wise ones steer clear of these things entirely. There is nothing to be done.  

 

We don't have to swim in that trap of lies. That is the nature of the world, worldly ways. It has always been like this, as always will be like this. There is no need to drag others into that mess. 

 

If you traveled the world, lived among people in small towns, tribes in the mountains, you will realize many are able to live, minds untouched by ideas of world politics for decades and decades even till this very day. Yes they feel the effects of global politics to an extent, but they carry on with their life. Politics or not, changes happen in their lives, and they focus on their tasks at hand, their families and loved ones, their religion, and move forward in life. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

16 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say politics in various forms in various areas  is a lot bigger than such a narrow definition as you imply.

Yea there is that which is beyond form and human beings, but 99.99 % of what is going on with people on the earth is in various ways is related to politics.  (which is not just a hobby beneath an above all attitude!)

 

if someone sees everything through the lens of politics, or professional sports or is a workaholic, or has any other "interest" that consumes them to such a degree that it causes upset, contention, friction in their daily life then it has taken over their life.  An earlier post indicates the belief that "politics affects everybody  and everything."  Well no actually it doesn't.  But that is the view of those who are consumed by it.

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:27 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

24 minutes ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

 

if someone sees everything through the lens of politics, or professional sports or is a workaholic, or has any other "interest" that consumes them to such a degree that it causes upset, contention, friction in their daily life then it has taken over their life.  An earlier post indicates the belief that "politics affects everybody  and everything."  Well no actually it doesn't.  But that is the view of those who are consumed by it.

 

 

sounds like another form of being consumed...

[BigSkyDiamond]

people holding different views is not a problem.

getting upset about people holding different views IS a problem.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:17 PM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

 

considering your earlier posts that sounds contradictory about the subject.

 

[liminal_luke]

Here, as I see it, is the trouble with political talk on the board.  Most of us come to this forum wanting and expecting a friendly and supportive atmosphere.  We´d like to be able to learn from others and share what we know in an environment where we feel respected and valued.  Mostly, political discussion isn´t like this.  Many people feel contempt for those who disagree with them politically.  This can lead to name calling (officially against the rules), but even when Bums manage to avoid bumping up against forum policy there´s considerable disharmony and bad vibes.  The bad vibes tend to leach into the board in general and spoil the experience for many.  As a recipient and occasional purveyor (apologies!) of bad political vibes, I know of what I speak.

Edited Tuesday at 10:47 PM by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

 

I don't come here to have an ivory tower experience or to give one, or to find an all knowing guru although some of us may need that at times.  Btw, bad vibes to me also includes apathy or ignoring events that affect all of us whether we like it or not.  And again politics ranges in subjects and areas from A-Z with both humanistic and adharmic events and people, thus more than just a "don't worry be happy" song. 

[Vajra Fist]

Honestly, it seems that everywhere you go, people are arguing bitterly against each other over politics.

 

Sometimes I feel like social media algorithms have radicalised people on both ends of the political spectrum. Because social division drives 'engagement' - which is where the social media companies get revenue.

 

Either way, it's nice to have a place where people aren't constantly kicking the shit out of each other. I was never part of current events section of the forum.

[old3bob]

 

how many of us can or will remain safe and comfortable until the adharmic stuff comes knocking on our door and sends us or loved ones off to some distant prison or worse?  

[Krenx]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

how many of us can or will remain safe and comfortable until the adharmic stuff comes knocking on our door and sends us or loved ones off to some distant prison or worse?  

 

You assume you can 100% prevent such things from happening to you in the world. You cannot. 

 

You assume there is "safety" in being involved in this world. Participating in the politics of it. 

 

You assume safety and comfort is a given in existence, that humans have some special "right" to safety.  

 

Nope. There never was such a thing. 

 

Work on the roots that lead to all these suffering in the world within yourself. Stop asking others to do it for you, change for you, be involved like you, wish the world becomes more agreeable to your comfort zone. The world cannot do such a thing. Nobody can, nobody will, not in the past, present, or future.  

 

That would be my recommendation. That way you live closer to reality, and be able to navigate life a little more skillfully, take more personal responsibility, instead of demanding others be responsible for your sake. 

 

It is quite a selfish thing to insist other people accommodate to your views. Let that go. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

30 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

how many of us can or will remain safe and comfortable until the adharmic stuff comes knocking on our door and sends us or loved ones off to some distant prison or worse?  

 

I understand your concern, I share it too. But I've never once found that arguing with people who have different political views than me has convinced them they are wrong.

 

There's a thing called cognitive dissonance - people find ways to accommodate facts that sit contrary to their own views, to the point it resembles mental gymnastics. That's because there's a whole lot of ego and self validation bound up in being right, or winning an argument. 

 

Go vote or protest. Speak out and campaign for what you believe in. But - in my experience at least - it doesn't do anyone any good arguing online. 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Krenx said:

 

You assume you can 100% prevent such things from happening to you in the world. You cannot. 

 

   Where did old3bob ever  claim  that ! 

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about his assuming  . 

 

 

1 hour ago, Krenx said:

 

You assume there is "safety" in being involved in this world. Participating in the politics of it. 

 

He does ?    or are you  ? 

 

1 hour ago, Krenx said:

 

You assume safety and comfort is a given in existence, that humans have some special "right" to safety.  

 

I assume that one .... I assume certain laws protect me from harm .... like assault or safety in the work place ....  I think I have a right to safety  when I travel on a bus ... at least to some level . 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Krenx said:

 

Nope. There never was such a thing. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Krenx said:

 

Work on the roots that lead to all these suffering in the world within yourself. Stop asking others to do it for you, change for you, be involved like you, wish the world becomes more agreeable to your comfort zone. The world cannot do such a thing. Nobody can, nobody will, not in the past, present, or future.  

 

That would be my recommendation. That way you live closer to reality, and be able to navigate life a little more skillfully, take more personal responsibility, instead of demanding others be responsible for your sake. 

 

It is quite a selfish thing to insist other people accommodate to your views. Let that go. 

 

 

I will end as I began ... you made a lot of assumptions there . 

[Nungali]

Mammalian Politics. 

 

Regardless of the claims of some here , humans are a political animal .  Now if you try to get away from that ... say, by going to live in a temple as a monk ...  will there be any politics there ?    

 

HOOOOO  BOY ... you betcha !  

 

Name any other group or collective of humans  ... politics ?  Same answer . 

 

Its an essential part of understanding our nature  ... aside from those limited areas  where people think they are studying  our nature  ( various forms of spirituality and religion  - divorced from politics ) yet are still wholly ruled by it !  Any one that has studied , even a little bit , of any thing social anthropology or related subjects will have encountered this . 

 

A quick AI  view on the topic 

 

AI Overview

 

"Mammalian politics" refers to the study of social behavior and power dynamics within animal societies, particularly among mammals, drawing parallels to human political systems. It explores how animals form hierarchies, resolve conflicts, make decisions, and cooperate, often using concepts from political science and sociology to understand these animal behaviors. 

 

Key aspects of mammalian politics include:

• Leadership and Hierarchy:

  How animals establish and maintain power structures, whether through brute force, coalition building, or other strategies. 

   
• Decision-Making:

  Examining how animals collectively decide on actions like foraging, migration, or conflict resolution, sometimes exhibiting forms of animal democracy. 

   
• Cooperation and Conflict:

  Analyzing how animals cooperate within their groups, the types of conflicts they engage in, and how these conflicts are resolved. 

   
• Social Structures:

  Understanding the complex social organizations of different mammalian species, including the roles and relationships within those structures. 

   
• Evolution of Leadership:

  Investigating how leadership traits and behaviors evolve within mammalian societies over time. 

   
• Biopolitics:

  Exploring the ways in which power and control are exerted over life and populations, often in the context of wildlife conservation and management. 

   

Examples of mammalian politics in action:

• Chimpanzees:

  Chimpanzees demonstrate various political strategies, including coalition building, alliances, and power struggles for dominance, according to National Geographic. 

   
• Red Deer:

  Red deer herds may make collective decisions about movement based on the behavior of a significant portion of the group, effectively voting with their feet, according to the Center for Biological Diversity. 

   
• African Buffalo:

  African buffalo females use a form of voting to indicate their preferred direction of travel, according to the Center for Biological Diversity. 

   
• Ravens:

  Ravens exhibit behaviors related to equality and inequality, such as sharing food and reconciling after fights. 

   
• Squirrels:

  Squirrel populations and their conservation efforts can be viewed through a lens of biopolitics, with strategies for managing native and invasive species, according to ScienceDirect.com. 

   

By studying these aspects of mammalian behavior, researchers gain insights into the origins and dynamics of social organization and power, potentially informing . 

 

 

I am not saying it should NOT be a 'taboo subject ' here though  ...   one of our most basic functions is to shit .  Its perfectly reasonable to ask ;  " Please don't drop your shit here . "    And since politics originally  started by   'higher' mammals  throwing their shit at each other  .... we know how its going to end up . 

 

 

I still think 'the pit'  was a good idea .   But I know some people thought that a secret 'fight club' in the basement  was  .....    'not nice' .   

[BigSkyDiamond]

AI (Artifical Intelligence) is not a credible or reliable source of information.  It not only has (a) built-in inaccuracy, but (b) the inaccuracy increases and grows and gets worse over time.  Inaccuracies and mistakes and errors not only appear, they propagate and spread and multiply over time.  When information is not available, AI invents false answers and fabricates data and sources and information including URL fabrication.  

 

For instnace, research at Columbia University shows AI cites incorrect sources 60% of the time.  (Researchers ran 1,600 inquiries across 8 different platforms. )  The premium paid versons delivered incorrect information more often then their free counterparts.

 

AI can not interpret or distinguish between what is correct or incorrect information

 

"As of 2023, a typical AI model isn't assessing whether the information it provides is correct. Its goal when it receives a prompt is to generate what it thinks is the most likely string of words to answer that prompt. Sometimes this results in a correct answer, but sometimes it doesn’t – and the AI cannot interpret or distinguish between the two. It’s up to you to make the distinction. 

AI can be wrong in multiple ways:

• It can give the wrong answer 
• It can omit information by mistake
• It can make up completely fake people, events, and articles
• It can mix truth and fiction

 

AI is "just mimicking reasoning, rather than actually performing that reasoning.”

Reliability is just not there with AI.  In March an AI tool correctly identified prime numbers from a list 96.7% of the time.  Three months later in June of the same year, the same AI platform, the same task, the same list, but only 2.7% were correctly identified.  AI is simply not reliable.

 

 

 

source

article 2025 "AI search engines cite incorrect news sources at an alarming 60% rate"

article  2023, University of Maryland Research Guide, "What does AI Get Wrong"

article   2023, Scientific American, "Yes AI Models Can Get Worse Over Time"

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:08 AM by BigSkyDiamond

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

   Where did old3bob ever  claim  that ! 

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about his assuming  . 

 

He does ?    or are you  ? 

 

I assume that one .... I assume certain laws protect me from harm .... like assault or safety in the work place ....  I think I have a right to safety  when I travel on a bus ... at least to some level . 

 

 

I will end as I began ... you made a lot of assumptions there . 

 

He made insulting assumptions I'd add...and a high and mighty you, you and you lecture.

Edited yesterday at 12:33 AM by old3bob

[old3bob]

9 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I also think no politics in this site is a reasonable approach.   The only problem is the DDJ and Yellow Emperor teachings are directly concerning governance or politics; or using politics as metaphor.     

 

And lots more "problems" throughout history besides just those,  the list and notes related to same would be too long to list here!

 

Btw here is a big one: Modern India was shaped by Mahatma Gandhi with his involvement in politics being front and center!  He even got the British to help with the partition even if much of that went all to hell.  The book, "Freedom at midnight" recounts that time with intense examples!

 

[forestofclarity]

** Currently left unlocked since this is generalized discussion **

[Cobie]

 

20 hours ago, Master Logray said:

... the DDJ ... teachings are directly concerning governance or politics; or using politics as metaphor.     

 

On what is this opinion based?  Could you please give some concrete examples from actual chapters in the DDJ.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:12 AM by Cobie

[doc benway]

For what it's worth, I feel a lot of empathy for what people are going through right now regarding current events and politics.

I am feeling a lot of negative emotions on a daily basis and do my best to bring it into my spiritual practice. 

We are living through unprecedented times and events and I wish there was a way we could offer each other more support here.

Debating current and events and politics has proven not to work out well here, but perhaps there's a way we could discuss the impact they are having on us and support each other in dealing with them as effectively as possible. To some degree, I think this thread is having somewhat of a positive effect and I appreciate everyone who added their comments and the mods keeping it open so far.

[liminal_luke]

I also feel empathy for what people are going through right now and think it would be great if we could support each other without arguing about the merits of any given view.  My mom marched in a recent "No Kings" event, her first political protest in her more than eighty years.  She sent me a picture of herself out in the sunshine, smiling and waving a tiny American flag.  She said it felt good to be there, in the world amongst so many other people who felt as she did.  I was happy for her.

 

Although I´m wary of much that is going on in the US politically these days, my own politics has slid somewhat rightward since Covid and I wouldn´t of wanted to march in No Kings myself.  But that doesn´t mean I don´t care about the thoughts and feelings of those who disagree with me.  Those who disagree with me are not "idiots."  In fact, many of them are smart and well-informed, kind and thoughtful -- some of the best people I know. 

 

I gather from another thread that the mods are currently debating Old3bobs status in the forum.  He consistently brings up political topics, even though it´s the current policy of the board not to do so.  It´s not my place to comment on his future here, but one thing´s clear: he´s a person that cares about the state of the world and he´s hurting.  I think so many of us are hurting.

 

I´m not much of a Buddhist but sometimes a Buddhist saying fits the moment.  May all beings be free from suffering.

 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by liminal_luke

[ChiDragon]

10 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

On what is this opinion based?  Could you please give some concrete examples from actual chapters in the DDJ.

 

 

If you'd study the DDJ long enough, I think you should know what the DDJ is all about by now.