Nungali Posted Tuesday at 10:57 PM 10 hours ago, Tommy said: Thank goodness I have not developed senses on the higher planes. This so that I do not deal with the Lords of Karma as most lords do not listen to the lowly peasants of the world. Living on different planes only shows how out of touch they are with the world of people. And lack the understanding of compassion, therefore lack wisdom in their decisions. For me, I rather put down that book. Correct ...... but they listen to Lairg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Wednesday at 01:49 AM 3 hours ago, Nungali said: Attempted snappy answers that never address your original idiocy hide nothing . Oh, really? Can I say that you're officially my hater? So I can tell people "I've made it. I'm somebody". I'm so important I have haters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Wednesday at 01:59 AM 13 hours ago, Tommy said: So, the source of evil is that people have the ability to choose their actions from a moral choice to an immoral choice? And moral and immoral are determined by the people. When people believed that sacrificing some people would appease that Gods was moral, that was free will but it was good. And when people do that now, it would be immoral as standards have changed which makes it evil? I think the practice of sacrificing children and people to deities. Was born out of lacking sufficient food to feed everyone. Which is also the origins story of cow worship. Cow manure allowed for agriculture, allowing for elevated food production to feed everyone. In that sense cows saved man from having to sacrifice their own people. 13 hours ago, Tommy said: I remember stories of people starving on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Then there was this person who fed them. He got his meat by killing other people he did not like. Doing evil to do good? To me some choices are subjective. And, an animal does make decisions. If you ever seen a mother bird get revenge for her eggs being eaten by a fox. It is a choice of the bird to target the fox. Instinct? Sure. Or the story of the frog and the scorpion. The scorpion ask the frog for a ride across the pond. The frog refused saying that the scorpion would sting him and their would die. The scorpion insist that he would not. So, as they were crossing the pond, the scorpion stung the frog. Moral of the story? Even with free will to choose their actions, instinct will make them act. Moral or not? So, sure, free will means you can choose good and evil. But, who decides what is good and evil. And what is instinct? How do all these things interplay? There are people who always seem to make the most low IQ choices they can get their hands on. Its hard to label low IQ choices as instinct. Instinct is generally behavioral patterns that elevate an organisms chances of survival. Wheras low IQ choices are better classified as self destructive if not indirectly suicidal tendencies. There are some working night and day. Working hard. To make life harder for themselves and the people around them. Why? Because they hate God. They hate this world God created and everyone and everything in it. They want to destroy it all, including themselves. How should that be classified? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted Wednesday at 02:44 AM The topic question is a good one. For me, the distinction is this: what is the difference between instincts and the will. And what is the will, anyway? As I understand it, the will is something that should come from one's soul. The will is not instincts, and it is not a logical conclusion, for me anyway. As a side note, there was a time a studied a bit of Kashmir Shaiva tantra, and the idea there was that there is no free will at all. I'm just repeating this without full understanding of it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted Wednesday at 03:21 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: There are people who always seem to make the most low IQ choices they can get their hands on. Its hard to label low IQ choices as instinct. Instinct is generally behavioral patterns that elevate an organisms chances of survival. When a dog is cornered by humans that are trying to capture it to put in a safe place. The dog's instinct is to fight and growl which lowers its chance of survival as the humans may decide just kill the animal if it isn't tame enough to handle. So, even if it is instinct, it doesn't mean the instinctual actions will elevate its chances of survival. A choice whether low IQ or not is still a choice. Choosing instinctual action is still a choice. The good or the evil or the action is decided by others. Since allowing evil is a sign of free will, then do you have free will if you only choose the good? Does this mean you are evil or can choose evil? Why couldn't free will be just a choice, when approaching a fork in the road, of going to the right or left path?? Free will without good or evil?? Edited Wednesday at 03:27 AM by Tommy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 03:40 AM 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: Oh, really? Can I say that you're officially my hater? So I can tell people "I've made it. I'm somebody". I'm so important I have haters. No . Because me being 'your hater' is just another lame excuse for you not looking at the real reason I am asking you for any validity , citation or back up, regarding the rubbish you posted . No doubt you will consider this response is , as well, because I 'hate' you . Hate is a state of consciousness alien to me .... like lots of the states of human consciousness . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 03:48 AM 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: I think the practice of sacrificing children and people to deities. Was born out of lacking sufficient food to feed everyone. Which is also the origins story of cow worship. Cow manure allowed for agriculture, allowing for elevated food production to feed everyone. In that sense cows saved man from having to sacrifice their own people. Can't argue with that one .... as its prefixed by "I think " . However, if you ever decide to look further beyond that , try looking into the origins of pastoralism . 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: There are people who always seem to make the most low IQ choices they can get their hands on. Ummmm ... yeah . Apparently some even do that deliberately . 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: Its hard to label low IQ choices as instinct. Instinct is generally behavioral patterns that elevate an organisms chances of survival. Wheras low IQ choices are better classified as self destructive if not indirectly suicidal tendencies. There are some working night and day. Working hard. To make life harder for themselves and the people around them. Why? Because they hate God. They hate this world God created and everyone and everything in it. Hate ? Again ? 1 hour ago, Sanity Check said: They want to destroy it all, including themselves. How should that be classified? With your other posts ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 04:29 AM 1 hour ago, idquest said: The topic question is a good one. For me, the distinction is this: what is the difference between instincts and the will. And what is the will, anyway? Indeed ! Its always good to define terms before a discussion . The issue is there is more than one function in the psyche that comes under the poor English language word 'will' . The same applies to 'soul', 'spirit', and many other 'spiritual terms ' . English is useless in that area .... that's why it has adopted terms from other languages ; HIndi, Pali . Also in psychology , a few instances it has even borrowed from German . We might be better served to list the types of will. Then anyone with serious inquiry might understand what some are talking about here . 1 hour ago, idquest said: As I understand it, the will is something that should come from one's soul. Well, without defining soul ..... that is one type of 'will' . I have extensive posts on it scattered about . The earliest religious concept of it seems to be recorded in the Zoroastrian Avesta and commentary under the term 'Khvarenah ' 1 hour ago, idquest said: The will is not instincts, and it is not a logical conclusion, for me anyway. The instincts are coupled with the 'animal will' . Its a 'lower type' but of course essential . Like we have a 'hind brain ' and 'neuro somatic' (or 'reptilian consciousness ' ) . I would not describe this type as 'free will' though . . .it is highly and deeply programmed . That is .... that program come written at birth ... it is not one of those programs that are 'to be written ' ( see 'Exo-psychology' ) . Higher aspects of 'will' are probably more centered on (note : not 'in' ) the forebrain and neo-cortex and linked through the sahasrara 'gate'. 1 hour ago, idquest said: As a side note, there was a time a studied a bit of Kashmir Shaiva tantra, and the idea there was that there is no free will at all. I'm just repeating this without full understanding of it. Well, one of the highest forms of will; as in 'true will' and 'khvarenah' we come 'pre-loaded' with . This does not mean it will be obvious or even discovered by the individual , but also many are born 'instinctively' knowing what their true will is . A simple way of describing this 'will' is to imagine it is the particular path and purpose one chose before our incarnation. To be not on that path, will of course cause (eventually) deep spiritual purposelessness , lack of direction and meaning in life ( " What is life for , why am I here ? etc . ) alienation and depression ..... and eventually a very sick society . Conversely , when enough members of a society do it, its a better society . This was in the original teachings and they talked about a 'golden age ' where society and people became like this ; the origin of religious teachings about 'paradise' ( which actually means 'nice garden ' ; para diz . The correct term for this enlightened society is ' frashokereti ' and those so enlightened as ' sayoshant'. of course it all got turned 'religious' with an interpretation moving towards some triumphant single sayoshant' ('savior' ) coming and 'magically' creating (or through 'magical war' a new society ('New Jerusalem ' ) . All concepts that influenced further development in Judaism, Christianity and Islam . Just to be clear here I am talking about the earliest form , not the later devolved forms . Actually, all this existed before Zoroastrianism even came about . I have posts on here tracking the early development from Ice age refugia (probably Lake Baikal ) and spreading out at the end of the Ice Age ( Big Melt ) , into Central Asia where teachings then traveled west (Zoroastrianism to reform 'Pairo-tkeisha religions ) and east (into Tibet by 'Miwoche - The Central Asian Buddha , to reform Bon . I'd say sometimes we can act independently through will , but most of the time we don't -even when we think we are 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sherman Krebbs Posted Wednesday at 05:27 AM The problem with this question is defining "will" and defining "free". Both of these words are infinitely equivocable, making it possible to come up with nearly any logical proposition as to their philosophical existence, with the latter modifying the former. My thinking is that when we talk about "will," we really just asserting existence--that I am real and that my movements, and actions, impact the ether in which I exist. When we talk about "free" we are really just asserting that our existence is meaningful, and not arbitrary. That it means something when I get an idea in my head and pursue it to the fullest extent possible. I know existence is meaningful, because if it weren't, what's the point. In my view, the concept of free will, however, can not be confuted through the demonstration of incapability or lack of self control. As involuntary and animal-like that an action may be, all of us have within us the capability to cultivate the ability to act in accordance with our authentic being, and the fact that anyone (but not necessarily me) has realized that enlightenment is proof that there is a free will, so to speak. Isn't that the whole point of cultivation, and really, existence---to develop the capacity to be authentic and to preside equanimously over the full limits of the realm of phenomena. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paradoxal Posted Wednesday at 06:00 AM 3 hours ago, Sanity Check said: There are people who always seem to make the most low IQ choices they can get their hands on. 3 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Wheras low IQ choices are better classified as self destructive if not indirectly suicidal tendencies. A wonderful example of someone choosing not to exercise their free will! Thank you for your noble sacrifice! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Wednesday at 07:35 AM 3 hours ago, Nungali said: No . Because me being 'your hater' is just another lame excuse for you not looking at the real reason I am asking you for any validity , citation or back up, regarding the rubbish you posted . No doubt you will consider this response is , as well, because I 'hate' you . Hate is a state of consciousness alien to me .... like lots of the states of human consciousness . If you ever change your mind I got you covered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Wednesday at 08:01 AM 1 hour ago, Paradoxal said: A wonderful example of someone choosing not to exercise their free will! Thank you for your noble sacrifice! A good test of free will. "What's the smartest choice made since COVID in 2020." Those who can't think of a single smart choice in the last 5 years. Got problems. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sherman Krebbs Posted Wednesday at 09:05 AM 6 hours ago, Sanity Check said: Why? Because they hate God. They hate this world God created and everyone and everything in it. What does god have to do with free will? Feels like there is a deeper frustration being expressed here, which is being blamed on those that are not one-and-only-god fearing people, that free will only arises by those that blindly exercise it at the behest of their one-and-only creator in the heavens, and none else.. well except his human son... oh yeah, and that other wispy holy spiritual tart. Likely I am misinterpreting what you are saying, however, although this feels more like a reflection of internal personal feelings that one is trying to overcome by preaching them outwise. I mean no ill will in this observation, just projecting my own internal frustrations symptomatic of the same malaise and interested if this is truly what is being implied; however, feel free to "lay it on me," if what I have said is viewed as offensive. IMHLOL 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted Wednesday at 09:28 AM Yes we have free will. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted Wednesday at 12:24 PM (edited) 3 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said: What does god have to do with free will? Feels like there is a deeper frustration being expressed here, which is being blamed on those that are not one-and-only-god fearing people, that free will only arises by those that blindly exercise it at the behest of their one-and-only creator in the heavens, and none else.. well except his human son... oh yeah, and that other wispy holy spiritual tart. Likely I am misinterpreting what you are saying, however, although this feels more like a reflection of internal personal feelings that one is trying to overcome by preaching them outwise. I mean no ill will in this observation, just projecting my own internal frustrations symptomatic of the same malaise and interested if this is truly what is being implied; however, feel free to "lay it on me," if what I have said is viewed as offensive. IMHLOL Over the last 20 years. The only demographic waging war against the existence of free will. Are atheist. The only demographic who would say free will doesn't exist. Are people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Nye, etc. There's nothing sneaky or deceptive about it. Quick search results: 2009: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experiments-in-philosophy/200901/can-atheist-believe-in-free-will 2019: https://mindmatters.ai/2019/08/why-do-atheists-still-claim-free-will-cant-exist/ 2019: Atheism correlating strongly with denial of free will is old news. Edited Wednesday at 12:40 PM by Sanity Check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted Wednesday at 07:27 PM I don't know if it's free will, but my mind is constantly rolling dice and acting accordingly. Someone watching me from a distance would determine I'm a 'real' albeit boring, 'D&D' character living in a mundane world. With some decisions made rationally, some seemingly randomly but from a set spectrum of choices.. mostly through a culture lens. My life is in an orbit but my decisions and life's randomness act like gravity, pulling me off course. So, I believe I have free will. I'm just not sure how 'powerful' it is. If it's a strong or weak force. I tend to scoff at astrologies yet I can see how my .. stats and the storyline I'm in, control me. Maybe all theology comes down to who we think the Dungeon master is. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted Wednesday at 07:28 PM 9 hours ago, Apech said: Yes we have free will. I am forced to agree. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted Wednesday at 08:23 PM The question of free will is related to the Two Truths of Buddhism for me. Each of us, as individuals, experience free will and, at the same time, free will does not exist in the way it appears to us. From the relative sense of being, there is the lived experience I can call free will which is very real and easy to validate for all of us. "I" experience thought and feeling which is followed by action, the two being linked by a lifetime of learning and conditioning. There appears to be a definite cause and effect relationship between the thought and action and this connection is what I feel as "me." From the absolute sense of being, thoughts come and go, actions come and go, and there is nothing in particular that can be identified as the local cause of those thoughts and actions, no meaningful separation or distinction between subject and object, actor and action, so the idea of free will becomes moot. This is also a lived experience, every bit as valid as the relative experience of me and my free will. The sense of an "I" who is the cause of thoughts and actions is just as ephemeral as any other thought, it comes and goes in relationship to circumstances. As has been alluded to earlier in the thread, there is a growing body of experimental evidence that what appears to be the "me" making decisions and taking action appears to be little more than an inner narrator that observes, describes, and takes responsibility for what is going on. This observation is consistent with advancing meditative experience and realization which is a wonderful mutual reinforcement for those of us interested in the relationship between science and spirituality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 09:47 PM 14 hours ago, Sanity Check said: If you ever change your mind I got you covered. No thanks .... from a deliberate act of will I have eliminated hate from my repertoire . and I am not surprised that to bolster and try to authenticize your 'gnosis' you cite .... Paris Hilton . here is some other great advice from her , maybe you will adopt this too ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 10:02 PM 12 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said: What does god have to do with free will? He seems to think (and this is fairly standard ) that God gave man free will to decide to be obedient to God or not but if he is not obedient God will punish him with eternal damnation . And he thinks , somehow, therefore that if you don't agree with this (him actually ) its proof that you " hate God" . Seems to me HE hates the idea he has been infected with and is projecting it out . This 'theological point ' reminds me of one of the many great episodes in the story 'Man Friday' - the Robinson Crusoe story with a VERY different twist ; this version is told by Friday and its VERY different . At one point 'Master ' ( Crusoe ) is arguing with Friday, this time Friday doesn't want to give in . Master gets frustrated and puts a pistol to Fridays head and threatens to blow his brains out .. Friday ; " Okay Okay calm down, I will do what you say ." and Crusoe responds with the wonderful line " There ! Now, you see how much easier everything is when we co-operate with each other ! " Nothing like having a free choice eh ? Another answer is God does have a lot to do with Free Will as Free Will is the thing we give up to follow Gods will . But how do we know what God's will is ? I suppose the church and priests 'help' us with that one 12 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said: Feels like there is a deeper frustration being expressed here, which is being blamed on those that are not one-and-only-god fearing people, that free will only arises by those that blindly exercise it at the behest of their one-and-only creator in the heavens, and none else.. well except his human son... oh yeah, and that other wispy holy spiritual tart. Likely I am misinterpreting what you are saying, But not in this case . besides , not even he himself is clear on what he is saying . But that doesn't matter as he clearly said previously he is deliberately writing rubbish here . 12 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said: however, although this feels more like a reflection of internal personal feelings that one is trying to overcome by preaching them outwise. 12 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said: I mean no ill will in this observation, just projecting my own internal frustrations symptomatic of the same malaise and interested if this is truly what is being implied; however, feel free to "lay it on me," if what I have said is viewed as offensive. IMHLOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted Wednesday at 10:05 PM (edited) 12 hours ago, Apech said: Yes we have free will. Well, maybe in Portugal . Here we gotta pay for it ! Edited Wednesday at 10:11 PM by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted Wednesday at 10:06 PM Yes, we have free will. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted Wednesday at 11:46 PM (edited) God gave a choice of good and evil as a means to have free will. It gives one a choice. If the only choice was one of good then how is one free to choose? So, God has made the choice of good and evil available to humans. Well, that is what I interpret from my readings of the Bible. I do not know if it is true. But, have to admit there is some sense in it. Although, humans are also a product of their environment. A human raise in the wild (there are cases of Feral Children) would or would not have free will, since everything is not either good or evil but much more a matter of survival?? Humans grow in an environment which help to determine what the essence of that person will be. These things must have some sort of factor in shaping the person's character. And so, what comes next is based on what has come before. Dependent Origination. One may feel there is free will or choices which one makes is dependent upon one's thoughts and feelings. Where the truth lies somewhere in between what a person has experienced in life and the thoughts and feelings raised in the mind. What is going to happen - will happen. It is the momentum of events driven by the forces unknown to us. And although it may feel that the future is dependent upon our choices, I believe the choices have already been made. Living it, it only lets us believe there is a choice. Edited Wednesday at 11:48 PM by Tommy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted Wednesday at 11:59 PM 11 minutes ago, Tommy said: God gave a choice of good and evil as a means to have free will. I wonder if that is a human account of a much more profound and cosmic process Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanity Check Posted yesterday at 12:05 AM 1 hour ago, Nungali said: No thanks .... from a deliberate act of will I have eliminated hate from my repertoire . and I am not surprised that to bolster and try to authenticize your 'gnosis' you cite .... Paris Hilton . here is some other great advice from her , maybe you will adopt this too ? I used to earn $1,000 to $3,000 per week. With my earning potential set to rise over time. I was cheated out of what was mine. Now I will reinvent myself. What are any of you doing with your own life that makes you think its your role to look down on anyone? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites