Transgender Q&A

[Taomeow]

Yes, it's a different world.  A hearsay world where we are thoroughly indoctrinated to take someone else's word for absolutely everything -- including our history and how bad our ancestors had it for a million years, how stupid and fragile they were.  How on earth did they manage to survive and thrive everywhere on earth until the Flexner Report introduced a superior world a hundred years ago?..  Mystery of mysteries...     

 

I love the fact that hearsay doesn't stand in court.  But then, our ancestors didn't know how to lie...  I read extensive accounts of the conquest of Siberia, e.g., and the way it was easy for people from "our" world to fool the natives -- they believed everything, they had no cultural skill of lying and so didn't expect it from others.  Many of them went practically extinct -- as did many peoples everywhere else when bestowed the blessings of our different world -- to a great extent due to this fatal cultural flaw.  But we are doing all right I'm sure.        

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I read about it a while ago, and I think I even mentioned it here on TDB at the time.  The article I recall was about Native American tribes where trans folks were thought of as special, sometimes became shamans because they were thought of as naturally talented toward  "straddling both worlds," and so on, and not discriminated against in the least.

 

The difference from the modern approach being, they didn't resort to surgical and hormonal sex change, they just accepted the fact of this dichotomy (body and mind of different "worlds" in the same person), much the way people accept other things about their own and other people's bodies that may not correspond to the ideal body they would prefer -- shorter or taller than average, thinner or fatter, asthenic type or hypersthenic type, boobs of all sizes and shapes with no particular size or shape fetishized, and so on.  There was no inner conflict and no outer bias, pressure to conform, activism to promote, or any social disadvantages to just feeling a particular way inside one's body and making those feelings known to others.  And above all, no money changing hands as a "side effect" (or as some cats would suspect, as the root cause of an exponential growth in the number of such occurrences.)  

Reminds me of a book you recommended years ago ‘The Shaman and the Heresiarch’ 

[blue eyed snake]

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Waiting lists are approx a month in most places.

 

Waiting-lists for registration and after that waiting-list for treatment.

Plus when you have several "disorders" together they can simply decide you were on the wrong waitinglist for registration after all and put you on another waitinglist for registration.

https://www.vzinfo.nl/wachttijden/geestelijke-gezondheidszorg

 

 

Cases of autistic people who are traumatized and depressed, are deemed "too complicated" and chucked around because nobody wants them. Some of those will suicide during that waitinglist period, I deem that a societal disorder.

 

 

there's a lot more profit in simple singular disorders,

see there's the easy buck again.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Were transgender people in traditional cultures happier than their counterparts today?  If so, it would certainly be interesting to find out why.  Best case scenario, we could try to emulate some of the conditions that led to better outcomes.  What strikes me is the way transgenderism was given meaning; transgender people, at least in some cases, had a special place in the culture of the tribe as shamans.  Maddie can correct me if I´m wrong, but I don´t imagine that most young transgendered people feel respected and honored.  Seems to me it's possible that this lack of respect and honor might have something to do with the depression many feel.  

 

This is not to say that there's anything wrong with modern medical transitioning.  It might well be the best course in many cases.  I just think there´s something to be learned from traditional cultures.  Something worth looking into.

[snowymountains]

42 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

Waiting-lists for registration and after that waiting-list for treatment.

Plus when you have several "disorders" together they can simply decide you were on the wrong waitinglist for registration after all and put you on another waitinglist for registration.

https://www.vzinfo.nl/wachttijden/geestelijke-gezondheidszorg

 

 

Cases of autistic people who are traumatized and depressed, are deemed "too complicated" and chucked around because nobody wants them. Some of those will suicide during that waitinglist period, I deem that a societal disorder.

 

 

there's a lot more profit in simple singular disorders,

see there's the easy buck again.

 

 

 

The chart is for the public healthcare system though and can only be compared to waiting times in the public healthcare system, as the times may reflect overall waiting times for public healthcare in Netherlands.

The 1 month waiting list I referred to was an approximate number for private practices btw, some will be fully booked, those that aren't typically will be able to offer some slots within a month.

 

Multiple disorders are difficult because they need a therapist who has experience in all of them, and this is indeed difficult to find, especially if they are from different clusters.

 

I can't know if the cases you have in mind do it for the buck, but if someone does not have experience in a disorder, the responsible thing to do is to refer to another professional who does. Doing otherwise will be harmful for the client.

[EFreethought]

9 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

I will not go further into it, it's deranging the thread

 

Usually people refer to going off-topic as "derailing a thread" (like derailing a train), but "deranging" might be a more accurate phrase.

 

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

Here's another perspective to consider when it comes to hormones and surgery. I mean obviously I want my physical body to match up with my gender for my own peace of mind, but there's also practical safety issues as well. I live in Texas it's a very religious and conservative state and I don't really have any problems because thanks to hormones and such I basically look like any other woman. On the other hand however if I looked like some kind of in between anomaly there's actually people who would be inclined to potentially hurt me. So aside from the psychological benefits I get from causing my body to match my gender there's also practical and safety issues.

 

 Here in CA it's different.  Here you are in danger of potentially being hurt if you think differently rather than look differently.  But trans people (and LGBTQ+ too) get every opportunity to express themselves safely, far as I can tell.

 

For an example: there's a store I visit quite regularly, and one of the sales people is -- well, I never asked him about his self-identification (for lack of any knowledge of the personal pronoun he might prefer, I'll use "him/his" until/unless I'm otherwise informed) but let me describe his appearance.  A young male with mustache, which he dyes bright pink, alongside his eyebrows, to match his fuchsia colored hair.  He wears skirts or dresses, his legs are very hairy but he doesn't shave them.  Dress style -- not of a man but I wouldn't say it's the outfits of a woman either, more like kindergarten-aged little girl: extremely bright and cheerful, with pleats and ruffles, embroidered ladybugs and butterflies, stuff like that.  Bright nail polish on very long fingernails (but no maintenance skills so it's usually peeling.)  He's always an eyeful of colors.  Very friendly, with no exaggerated mannerisms (which is my personal preferred style in men, women and trans people alike.)  We usually have a little chat -- just small talk, he's curious and likes to comment on my purchases and share about his own favorites, I find him more pleasant to deal with than a couple of "regular" ladies at the same counter on different days.  I've never seen anyone being rude or hostile to this guy -- and he interacts with dozens of people every day.  

[liminal_luke]

44 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

  one of the sales people 

 

I wonder if he returns to his parent´s home for Thanksgiving?  I grew up in California but it was a different California than the one you live in now.  A guy looking like that would not have done well.

[Taomeow]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I wonder if he returns to his parent´s home for Thanksgiving?  I grew up in California but it was a different California than the one you live in now.  A guy looking like that would not have done well.

 

He's not the type you see every day in today's CA either, but definitely people of nontraditional orientations are more visible here these days than even ten or so years ago.  

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, EFreethought said:

 

Usually people refer to going off-topic as "derailing a thread" (like derailing a train), but "deranging" might be a more accurate phrase.

 

 

oh, well, lets call that a Freudian slip of the keyboard.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I read about it a while ago, and I think I even mentioned it here on TDB at the time.  The article I recall was about Native American tribes where trans folks were thought of as special, sometimes became shamans because they were thought of as naturally talented toward  "straddling both worlds," and so on, and not discriminated against in the least.

 

The difference from the modern approach being, they didn't resort to surgical and hormonal sex change, they just accepted the fact of this dichotomy (body and mind of different "worlds" in the same person), much the way people accept other things about their own and other people's bodies that may not correspond to the ideal body they would prefer -- shorter or taller than average, thinner or fatter, asthenic type or hypersthenic type, boobs of all sizes and shapes with no particular size or shape fetishized, and so on.  There was no inner conflict and no outer bias, pressure to conform, activism to promote, or any social disadvantages to just feeling a particular way inside one's body and making those feelings known to others.  And above all, no money changing hands as a "side effect" (or as some cats would suspect, as the root cause of an exponential growth in the number of such occurrences.)  

 

Yeah ..... I wasnt going to mention the 'surgical changes ' ... they can be a bit gruesome .

 

To give you an idea about 'gruesome primitive surgery '  - eg . circumcision ; the bower bird is revered for suggesting that a sharpened piece of shell be used   for the circumcision ... much better than the old way .... a glowing red tip of a burning stick was used .

 

Thank goodness for improvements in technology !   

[Taomeow]

.

 

Edited April 14 by Taomeow

[Maddie]

Thought I would share another thought I have. To me what is interesting/baffling about the transgender issue is the strong reactions and feelings it brings out in people. I don't really understand it. 

[snowymountains]

17 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Thought I would share another thought I have. To me what is interesting/baffling about the transgender issue is the strong reactions and feelings it brings out in people. I don't really understand it. 

 

Strong reactions, more often than not, do not occur because of cognitive processes.

Not that this is any consolation for the strong reactions.

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Strong reactions, more often than not, do not occur because of cognitive processes.

Not that this is any consolation for the strong reactions.

 

true.

 

I suppose from a Buddhist point of view it challenges the notion of the self which according to the Buddha is one of the things that we cling to the strongest. 

Edited April 15 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

true.

 

I suppose from a Buddhist point of view it challenges the notion of the self which according to the Buddha is one of the things that we cling to the strongest. 

 

Most of that isn't even conscious.

You can take a look at Jung's idea of "complex". In that view they're not part of the ego-consciousness, they actually take control of it.

 

Or for a more modern approach Young's ( different spelling & different person to Jung ), automatic reactions & schemas.

 

[liminal_luke]

58 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Thought I would share another thought I have. To me what is interesting/baffling about the transgender issue is the strong reactions and feelings it brings out in people. I don't really understand it. 

 

Like many people, I´m not at all bothered by trans people.  It makes no difference to me how someone else dresses, how someone prefers to be addressed, or what medical procedures they do or do not get.  Why should it? I figure we´re all just trying to be happy, and if transgender people take steps to transition and that makes them happy -- more power to them.

 

Things get a little more triggery, however, when advocacy on behalf of trans folk starts to upend my understanding of my own gender and how I see the world.  Gender is at the very heart of what it means to be a human being.  I think trans issues bring up strong reactions for some cis people for the same reasons that misgendering often brings up strong reactions in trans people: we care about how others see us.  I recently read about an orientation at a college (Harvard, I think).  Freshman students were asked to go around a circle introducing themselves and sharing their preferred pronouns.  Thankfully, I won´t be enrolling in Harvard anytime soon so I probably shouldn´t waste too much cognitive space thinking about this.  Still -- oh my God!  I don´t want to have to give my preferred pronouns.  I want for people to look at me and tell that I am a male.  All my life people have looked at me and known that I´m a male and now suddenly they can´t?  Or are not supposed to?  This is profoundly discombobulating.  

 

Did you know that on some gay dating/hookup apps it´s no longer possible to filter people by trans/cis status?  Let´s say I only want to meet hairy, fat guys like me.  I can set up the app so that I only see profiles of "bears."  I can even set up the app so that I can only see profiles of guys of a certain age or even guys of a certain ethnicity.  What I can´t do is set up the app so that I see only profiles of guys that were born with penises.  Does this strike anybody as odd?  I assume the reason for this policy is that I´m not supposed to limit my dating/hooking up activity to guys born with penises.  To do so would be wrong.  To do so would make me guilty of the sin of transphobia.  The world has gone nuts!

 

And then there´s the whole "pregnant people" thing.  In my mind, women get pregnant and give birth.  I´m told there are lots of disadvantages to being a woman.  They´re often paid less than guys for the same work.  They are often expected to do more than their share of cooking and cleaning and childcare.  There are entire countires where it´s arguably not safe for them to travel alone. But one thing women do have going for them is the pregnancy and giving birth thing.  That is theirs.  I don´t think it´s right to take that away from women and give it to people in general.

 

None of these things are that big a deal in my actual life, granted.  But trans issues are changing the culture in huge ways and not just for trans people.  We´re all being asked to change.  At the very least, that takes some getting used to.

 

 

 

   

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

Thought I would share another thought I have. To me what is interesting/baffling about the transgender issue is the strong reactions and feelings it brings out in people. I don't really understand it. 

hmm

for you and me it is so obvious, we both have been feeling that weird and unpleasant feeling of living in a body that just does not feel right 

 

But for most people there is a inheritance of many centuries were " man and woman" he  created them, ruled supreme.

That has shaped deep grooves in the thinking of the average Joe.

I remember being so lonely, not knowing anybody who was like me or who even understood the idea of being born in wrong body. 

there were just those 2 choices, boy or girl, so of course I chose boy. had I been aware that i did not need to choose...but the dichotomy was an absolute given. I guess the younger generation would say I am nonbinary, I do not mind you can use any pronoun on me you like, I've heard them all

I think most of the troubles of trans-people come of not being accepted by society, whether we hide ourselves, mask ourselves. We do not fit and that gives society at large a free hand in bullying.

 

Even the existence of intersex people was kept hidden, parents of these children were admonished to keep it secret for the sake of there child. So most people had no idea there is something else then cispeople.

it's gonna take a lot of time to change that groove and there are opposing forces.

 

At least were I live, trans-people are seen and portrayed as a weird bunch of full-grown men wearing tutu's, cross-dressers, drag queens, men who dress up as women to be able to win at women sports, or to get entry into ladies toilets and sport-facilities.

 

All of those people do exist but they are not what trans-people are, interestingly you only very rarely hear about trans-men.

Those I know just want to be accepted in the role they feel they belong in, like you. No extravagance, you just live your life, do your job and experiment with ways to do your hair.

 

and on social media I see trolls who say that trans-people are grooming the kids, portraying us as a danger. That's what tom, dick and harry and their girls hear and believe. We do not fit in the accepted groove, so we're bad. And I think were also scapegoated, it's due to the "trans-ideology" that all kinds of bad things happen, that sort of rubbish

 

Last but not least there are worries about pubertyblockers and surgery, I understand that full well as it worries me too.

I regard puberty-blockers as dangerous, it will stunt development that should take place, some important development takes place during puberty and the first research confirms my worries.

For people born female a lack of estrogen will have severe repercussions on the body, we see that with women after menopause and the effects are not nice, to put it mildly. Think here connective tissue loosing strength and connectivity, organs prolapsing, teeth loose, joints hurting, plus of course osteoporosis. For myself, i am glad the choice was not there when I was young.

 

Also a lot of children will grow out of wanting it because it was not that deep or there were other reasons not to be happy with the body. I've seen the clear positive developments in grownups after hormone-therapy and mastectomy but I have no idea how to make a decision-scheme for it.

 

developmentally wise i would like an agecap of 23 before anything medical can happen, for 2 reasons 1 is that until that age the brain is still developing, new neural pathways are developed and the ability to plan and organize and make good decisions is still expanding. That should not be stunted.

secondly Because of the developmental weakness to look into the future due to those functions not yet being finished, I do not think it wise to trust a child or a teenager with such a decision.

 

 

 

Edited April 15 by blue eyed snake

[Maddie]

53 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Most of that isn't even conscious.

 

Of course not. Most of Buddhism deals with the subconscious. 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Of course not. Most of Buddhism deals with the subconscious. 

Let's not get into that discussion 😁

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

  To do so would make me guilty of the sin of transphobia.  The world has gone nuts!  

 

Liking who you like does not make you transphobic, people are allowed to have preferences :-).

[snowymountains]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Like many people, I´m not at all bothered by trans people.  It makes no difference to me how someone else dresses, how someone prefers to be addressed, or what medical procedures they do or do not get.  Why should it? I figure we´re all just trying to be happy, and if transgender people take steps to transition and that makes them happy -- more power to them.

 

Things get a little more triggery, however, when advocacy on behalf of trans folk starts to upend my understanding of my own gender and how I see the world.  Gender is at the very heart of what it means to be a human being.  I think trans issues bring up strong reactions for some cis people for the same reasons that misgendering often brings up strong reactions in trans people: we care about how others see us.  I recently read about an orientation at a college (Harvard, I think).  Freshman students were asked to go around a circle introducing themselves and sharing their preferred pronouns.  Thankfully, I won´t be enrolling in Harvard anytime soon so I probably shouldn´t waste too much cognitive space thinking about this.  Still -- oh my God!  I don´t want to have to give my preferred pronouns.  I want for people to look at me and tell that I am a male.  All my life people have looked at me and known that I´m a male and now suddenly they can´t?  Or are not supposed to?  This is profoundly discombobulating.  

 

Did you know that on some gay dating/hookup apps it´s no longer possible to filter people by trans/cis status?  Let´s say I only want to meet hairy, fat guys like me.  I can set up the app so that I only see profiles of "bears."  I can even set up the app so that I can only see profiles of guys of a certain age or even guys of a certain ethnicity.  What I can´t do is set up the app so that I see only profiles of guys that were born with penises.  Does this strike anybody as odd?  I assume the reason for this policy is that I´m not supposed to limit my dating/hooking up activity to guys born with penises.  To do so would be wrong.  To do so would make me guilty of the sin of transphobia.  The world has gone nuts!

 

And then there´s the whole "pregnant people" thing.  In my mind, women get pregnant and give birth.  I´m told there are lots of disadvantages to being a woman.  They´re often paid less than guys for the same work.  They are often expected to do more than their share of cooking and cleaning and childcare.  There are entire countires where it´s arguably not safe for them to travel alone. But one thing women do have going for them is the pregnancy and giving birth thing.  That is theirs.  I don´t think it´s right to take that away from women and give it to people in general.

 

None of these things are that big a deal in my actual life, granted.  But trans issues are changing the culture in huge ways and not just for trans people.  We´re all being asked to change.  At the very least, that takes some getting used to.

 

 

 

   

 

One genuine question I have is really how many trans people use "pregnant people", or all that is slogans made by people trans or not who appointed their own selves as representatives.

There's no trans representative election that I'm aware of.

 

In practical terms and I speak out of my own anecdotal personal life experience on this, like anyone else, trans people want to feel accepted and not disrespected for the reason that they're trans.

So maybe all the "pregnant people" type of stuff is because they don't feel respected exactly because of being trans, and if respect was a given, then none of the "pregnant people" lingo would had been there.

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

One genuine question I have is really how many trans people use "pregnant people"

 

 

I was about to say and then forgot I think the "pregnant" thing is actually more of a GOP strawman than a real issues trans people are actually concerned with. 

 

It's important to remember that with the far right loosing their minds over the trans issue, that there are a lot of strawmen out there right now. 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

I was about to say and then forgot I think the "pregnant" thing is actually more of a GOP strawman than a real issues trans people are actually concerned with. 

 

It's important to remember that with the far right loosing their minds over the trans issue, that there are a lot of strawmen out there right now. 

 

I don't know what to make of it politically tbh, eg anecdotally Goering might had been trans, and he was as far right as it gets.

 

Perhaps because the right targets conservative Christians as voters, some from the right dogwhistle targeting these voters.

And this btw is exactly about politicians manipulating voters by using their complexes, so that their complexes take over the ego-consciousness and switch off all analytical thinking.

[Maddie]

14 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

I don't know what to make of it politically tbh, eg anecdotally Goering might had been trans, and he was as far right as it gets.

 

Perhaps because the right targets conservative Christians as voters, some from the right dogwhistle targeting these voters.

And this btw is exactly about politicians manipulating voters by using their complexes, so that their complexes take over the ego-consciousness and switch off all analytical thinking.

 

The right totally manipulates Christians into voting for them. This is why the evangelicals act like Trump of all people is the second coming of Christ lol.