More Unpopular Opinions

[Apech]

32 minutes ago, Unota said:

Why to which part? Why I'm not interested in the alchemy?

 

I guess that was a wrong way to say it. I am interested in it, I'm fascinated by it and I love to read about it. But I will not try to apply it to myself, because I feel like that is not...really my personal...goal? Before I would ever consider something like spiritual development or enlightenment of any sort...Don't I have to learn to love life first? Wouldn't it just be an escape mechanism? How can I do something like that, if I can not be happy with 'going with the flow?' And if I was happy with it, then I think I would never find reason to do spiritual cultivation in the first place. Is it not contradictory? Maybe I just don't want that.

I think you may be mixing up a few ideas there.

[Mark Foote]

34 minutes ago, Unota said:

 

I guess that was a wrong way to say it. I am interested in it, I'm fascinated by it and I love to read about it. But I will not try to apply it to myself, because I feel like that is not...really my personal...goal? Before I would ever consider something crazy like spiritual development or enlightenment of any sort...Don't I have to learn to love life first? Wouldn't it just be an escape mechanism? How can I do something like that, if I can not be happy with 'going with the flow?' And if I was happy with it, then I think I would never find reason to do spiritual cultivation in the first place. Is it not contradictory?
 

I, for one, was most unhappy with my mind by my early teens.  That's how I came to accept "Focus on body first and let your thoughts take care of themselves" (cited above by Apech as a part of an unpopular opinion).

At seventeen, I learned how to sit zazen from the diagrams at the back of "Three Pillars of Zen".  That was reminiscent of the way I initially learned judo, out of a Bruce Tegner book. 

When I actually started in at a judo dojo, the principal instructor called his instructing assistants over to witness me demonstrating what I had learned.  Years later I found out they were highly amused, although they didn't show it at the time (fortunately.  I owe them all a great debt!).

 

My posture will never be exemplary, I'm reconciled to that.  And much of what I've learned about internal arts has come out of books, still.  

But I agree, there's a love of life, a happiness in living that's natural, a happiness the denial of which is downright unhealthy.

What I found through the seemingly unnatural practice of sitting on the floor with my legs crossed is that the body can place the mind, out of necessity.  And understanding that such placement is a natural thing in the rhythm of consciousness, I have mostly reconciled with that same mind that left me so dismayed as a teenager--my mind knows what to do, about one thing.

Unnatural to sit a posture that's been around since the Egyptians (you knew I'd get around to it, Apech), or... simply unpopular.  You decide... 

 

From the tomb of Ptah-Hotep, 24th century B.C.E.

 

Edited March 12 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

lord love a duck... sorry for the dupe.

Edited March 12 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Oh, nothing worth losing sleep over, I assure you.  Here´s a sampling.  You know how people argue about when life starts with pro-lifers arguing that it starts at conception and pro-choicers arguing that a fetus is not a human being?  I´m something of an extreme pro-choicer.  I believe life starts at 18.

 

So ... its okay to eliminate inconvenient and unplanned teenagers ?

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Unota said:

This has always driven me craaazy! I always  thought, isn't alchemy literally an attempt to go against nature? I like going with the flow. And I like daoism. But not particularly interested in the alchemy part. Which sounds pretty silly, because that's a pretty big part.

 

Isnt early everything we do 'going against nature ' ?   Building a house to keep the weather of us , retaining water to secure a drinking source .... putting your socks on ?   Do that stuff ,  but 'go with the flow' in doing it .

 

A dam is often built between the narrowest and deepest part of a gorge ..... not in the middle of a flat desert .

 

Fence not a field  for a shark nor make a  pool for a goat .

[liminal_luke]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

So ... its okay to eliminate inconvenient and unplanned teenagers ?

 

Not really.  The post you quoted was written in jest.  But my heart does go out to those parents who have moments when they would like to retroactively abort their children.  Our society doesn´t have much empathy for the parent who says "I deeply regret having had kids."  Such a statement would make one unpopular in most mommy groups.  And yet I´d wager that most parents, particularly new parents, feel ambivilent now and then. That´s a perfectly natural and to-be-expected feeling and I think we need to make space for it.

Edited March 12 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Unota said:

This has always driven me craaazy! I always  thought, isn't alchemy literally an attempt to go against nature? I like going with the flow. And I like daoism. But not particularly interested in the alchemy part. Which sounds pretty silly, because that's a pretty big part.

 

"Against the flow" examples from nature:

Salmons live for 2-3 years and die immediately after spawning.  All salmons are powerfully drawn to spawning, but if you put obstacles in the way of it happening, they will live for 14 years.  That's going against the flow -- for longevity.

 

Mice like to eat.  If food is plentiful, they will always eat their fill.  If you restrict their food at an early age, their lifespan increases greatly -- sometimes fivefold, which in human years would correspond to getting to be 160 years old.  They grow up smaller than average mice but their health is stellar.  That's going against the flow -- for longevity.

 

Neidan practitioners try to go against the flow because they want to be healthy (in body, mind, and spirit) and live longer than what their "natural" lifespan dictates.  What is it anyway, this "natural" lifespan?  Maybe an individual practitioner won't be able to pull off a dramatic increase -- because of compromised genetics, environmental adversities, stressful events, traumatic experiences -- there's no guarantee that he or she will live a longer and healthier life than some lucky individual who just goes with the flow and still beats them at this game due to stellar genetics, environmental blessings, low stress life, happy avoidance of traumatizing occurrences or routines, and so on.  But the idea is to improve one's chances despite adversities. 

 

In other words, it's natural to go with the flow, and paradoxically enough (taoism is nothing if not full of paradoxes), it can also be natural to go against the flow.  It all depends on what kind of flow and where one is headed going against it and how they go about it.             

Edited March 12 by Taomeow

[Unota]

50 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Isnt early everything we do 'going against nature ' ?   Building a house to keep the weather of us , retaining water to secure a drinking source .... putting your socks on ?   Do that stuff ,  but 'go with the flow' in doing it .

 

A dam is often built between the narrowest and deepest part of a gorge ..... not in the middle of a flat desert .

 

Fence not a field  for a shark nor make a  pool for a goat .

 

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

In other words, it's natural to go with the flow, and paradoxically enough (taoism is nothing if not full of paradoxes), it can also be natural to go against the flow.  It all depends on what kind of flow and where one is headed going against it and how they go about it.             

Okay, I see your point. Well...I do and I don't. Ehh...my head hurts. I do...but I don't!!

[Unota]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I think you may be mixing up a few ideas there.

Sorry, I am still learning about this kind of stuff. Is an immortal spirit body not the end goal of taoist alchemy? I thought this was like, the equivalent of enlightenment, in comparison with other religion. To persist after death, etc etc, in whatever form that may mean. *squints as notes* Did I misunderstand? Am I being an idiot again?

Edited March 12 by Unota

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, Unota said:

Sorry, I am still learning about this kind of stuff. Is an immortal spirit body not the end goal of taoist alchemy? I thought this was like, the equivalent of enlightenment, in comparison with other religion. To persist after death, etc etc, in whatever form that may mean. *squints as notes* Did I misunderstand? Am I being an idiot again?

 

I can't speak for all schools, but for some yes that is the goal. 

 

[stirling]

On 3/11/2024 at 5:06 AM, Apech said:

2.  Westerners should avoid meditating on mind because their natural inclination is to focus on body.  All instructions like non-conceptual states, no thoughts and so on should be avoided.  Focus on body first and let your thoughts take care of themselves.  The body, correctly viewed is a portal to energy - so work should begin there and then progress to subtle body.  Mind for Westerners is unimportant until later.

 

I guess that isn't my experience, at least with North Americans or practitioners in the UK.

 

Possibly in disagreement if I understand you correctly (and thus not popular?), but I will say that the single most important thing one could be doing IMHO is recognizing thoughts as thoughts, feelings as feelings, and all simply parts of the story of "self"/I as a mental construction. These are the most obvious things MOST in the way of enlightenment. In realization, the body can be seen at its base level to be a delusion... eventually seen to be the fluxing field of unlabeled sensations it has always been. The way forward in this case is in the simple practice of seeking  and resting in stillness.

 

Quote

 

“Things grow and grow,

But each goes back to its root.

Going back to the root is stillness.

This means returning to what is.

Returning to what is

Means going back to the ordinary.” - Lao Tzu

 

 

Edited March 13 by stirling

[NaturaNaturans]

Hmmm… I probally have a lot, but some I is better unsaid. Lets see.

 

1. I think enlighentment (awakening from delusion, Freedom for suffering, constant sense of unity) is impossible/does not exist, needlessy complicates «higher counciousness» and causes a lot of confusion and pain, in having people chase something I dont think can be chased. Even telling people it cant be chased, it is in you, confuses people. The gateless gate. I dont like (or just dont understand) it..

 

2. capitalism poisons everything.

 

that is it for now.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

1. I think enlighentment (awakening from delusion, Freedom for suffering, constant sense of unity) is impossible/does not exist

 

It happens ALL THE TIME. Seriously. I have met teachers, people on bulletin boards, the homeless, and many more that had a moment where they suddenly understood the reality of things. It is how you already ARE, if you could but see it. It has nothing to do with Daoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Jainism, ism-ism, it is outside of all practices and perspectives.

 

A little message from a friend:

 

Quote

A German film crew once asked Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche to say something that would be heard by people all over the world. Here is his response.

 

First I would like to tell you that an enlightened essence is present in everyone. It is present in every state, both samsara and nirvana, and in all sentient beings; there is no exception. Experience your buddha nature, make it your constant practice, and you will reach enlightenment. In my lifetime I have known many, many people who attained such an enlightened state, both male and female. Awakening to enlightenment is not an ancient fable. It is not mythology. It actually does happen. Bring the oral instructions into your own practical experience and enlightenment is indeed possible; it is not just a fairy tale.

 

To realize our buddha nature, we need the support of three principles. First is the precious Buddha, the primal teacher who showed the enlightened essence to others. Next is the precious dharma, the teachings on how to train in experiencing the enlightened essence. Lastly, there is the precious sangha, the people who uphold and spread the teachings. Additionally, there are three roots: there is the guru, the root of blessings; the yidam, the root of accomplishment; and the dakini, the root of activities. They possess all-knowing wakefulness, all-embracing compassion, the activity of deeds for the benefit of beings, and the capacity to protect and save others.

 

Sometimes we may have doubts and hesitation when relating to the Buddha’s teachings, but do not leave it with that. It is very important to validate what is trustworthy and what is not. My teachers mentioned four kinds of validation. First are the words of a perfectly enlightened being, such as the Buddha, whose statements are never unwise. Then there are the teachings by the great masters of the lineage, passed from one to the other until today. Third are the instructions we receive from our own personal teacher. Finally, to decide with certainty, we need the validation of our own intelligence. Do not leave anything to blind faith or conventional belief. Examine for yourself what is really the truth.

What is the reason for the misery and pain every living being undergoes What is the cause of samsara’s delusion? It is nothing other than lacking the experience of our enlightened essence. We ignore what is primordially present within us: our buddha nature. Instead, immersed in confused emotions, we chase illusory aims that endlessly result in more deluded experience. That’s called samsara. We have already done that for countless lifetimes, life after life, death following rebirth. Unless you now take this opportunity, while you are still a human being, to realize what is fully possible, you will continue in the future in the same deluded way.Please understand that the buddha nature is present within everyone.Nobody lacks this potential, not even a single person in this world. Unless you learn how to bring it into your personal experience, train in that and realize it, you remain deluded. Delusion never disappears by itself. Spinning around on the rim of samsara’s vicious wheel, on the twelve links of dependent origination, you will continue life after life. We all die, are reborn, and die again, countless times.But, in this present life, you can learn to experience your enlightened essence, and if you do that, you can, before passing away, attain the perfectly and fully awakened state of a buddha. The method to transform this human body into rainbow light at the moment of death is only through recognizing and realizing our buddha nature; there is no other possible way. The instruction for how to do that is still available. Place your trust in the three jewels: the precious Buddha, dharma and sangha. Receive this teaching from someone who holds an unbroken lineage; this lineage is still intact. Otherwise, everyone dies; there is no exception. In the past, everyone who lived in this world died. Right now everyone alive will die. Everyone born int he future will also die. Everything in the world changes; nothing remains the same, nothing is permanent, nothing lasts. If you want to be successful, if you really want to take care of yourself recognize your enlightened essence. - A Message to Human Beings, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoch, Extracted with permission from Rangjung Yeshe Publications, from Repeating the Words of the Buddha, by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Thank you, @stirling. Id like to clarify a few things. It is not that I do not belive in "higher states" or the possibility of everything suddenly becomming clear and a deep sense of unity. In fact, I have experienced it. I think I more so have a problem with the term, trying to "teach it," and the idea of it being constant and everlasting bliss. Trying to teach it, and trying to achieve it, does in my opinion only complicate and lead to confusion. It makes it a chase, and make it sounds grander then it is (IMO), when inner peace in many ways is giving in, to stop looking, to accept. Do I make sense?

 

As mentioned, I too have felt this deep sense of peace and unity. But it happened out of the blue, it passed relativley quickley and to complicate things further: shortly after I went psychotic haha. I agree very much that it is not limitied to buddhism, or any other teaching. I think you find the theme of "higher counciousness" in every faith/philosophy worthy of its name. Hinduism, christian heaven, sufism, buddhism ofc...

 

Take one of my favorite verses of norse writing. This is from Havamal stanza 137-138 (havamal = sayings of the high one, aka Odin.)

I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there

 

Then i fell back from there... I find it hard to articulate why, but I think that a sense of unity is nesserily fleeting and that a life long feeling of peace/unity is impossible. I think unity in a way implies duality, - - = +. As said, maybe I make no sense, but I have already said that talking about it is (IMO) useless. It happens when it happens, if it happens. Maybe it is one of those things that can only be pointed at.

 

From the gnostic gospel of Thomas:

 

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty

 

(97) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a certain woman who was carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on the road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty."

 

(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" 11 "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

 

Isha Upanishad, verse 16:

 

16. O Sun, sole traveller of the Heavens, controller of all, Surya, son of Prajapati remove thy rays and gather up thy burning light. I behold thy glorious form; 1 am he, the Purusha within thee.

 

 

These are some of the texts that ressonates with me. To others they might be meaningless. And what is meaningfull to them might be meaningless to me.

 

Did I make any sense?

Edited March 13 by NaturaNaturans

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Receive this teaching from someone who holds an unbroken lineage; this lineage is still intact. Otherwise, everyone dies; there is no exception. In the past, everyone who lived in this world died. Right now everyone alive will die. Everyone born int he future will also die. Everything in the world changes; nothing remains the same, nothing is permanent, nothing lasts. If you want to be successful, if you really want to take care of yourself recognize your enlightened essence. - A Message to Human Beings, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoch, Extracted with permission from Rangjung Yeshe Publications, from Repeating the Words of the Buddha, by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

And if the elements themselves suffer nothing by their perpetual conversion of one into another, that dissolution, and alteration, which is so common unto all, why should it be feared by any? Is not this according to nature? But nothing that is according to nature can be evil.

(…)

 

You came into the world as a part. You will vanish in that which gave you birth, or rather you will be taken up into its generative reason by the process of change.

 

(…)

 

If souls survive death for all eternity, how can the heavens hold them all? Or for that matter, how can the earth hold all the bodies that have been buried in it? The answers are the same. Just as on earth, with the passage of time, decaying and transmogrified corpses make way for the newly dead, so souls released into the heavens, after a season of flight, begin to break up, burn, and be absorbed back into the womb of reason, leaving room for souls just beginning to fly. This is the answer for those who believe that souls survive death.

 

(…)

 

23. Everything is fitting for me, my Universe, which fits thy purpose. Nothing in thy good time is too early or too late for me; everything is fruit for me which thy seasons, Nature, bear; from thee, in thee, to thee are all things. The poet sings: 'Dear city of Cecrops', and will you not say: 'Dear city of God'?

― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Edited March 13 by NaturaNaturans

[silent thunder]

Awareness does not arise or diminish.

 

No teaching it, or attaining what already is your fundamental essential nature.

 

Release, explore, seek, destroy, absolve, report, learn, forget...

 

Awareness is

 

i am

[NaturaNaturans]

Just now, silent thunder said:

Awareness does not arise or diminish.

 

No teaching it, or attaining what already is your fundamental essential nature.

 

Release, explore, seek, destroy, absolve, report, learn, forget...

 

Awareness is

 

i am

I agree, but you can tune in to it by focusing on breath for instance, dont you think?

[silent thunder]

The side paths of engaging are nigh on endless for sure... yet the foundation is ever underlying all seeking doing or fleeing... unchanged and unchanging awareness abides all,  rejects none and grasps no thing or non thing.

 

It is what underlies all and is as close a concept as i have to describing in a word form our true essential nature.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

The side paths of engaging are nigh on endless for sure... yet the foundation is ever underlying all seeking doing or fleeing... unchanged and unchanging awareness abides all,  rejects none and grasps no thing or non thing.

 

It is what underlies all and is as close a concept as i have to describing in a word form our true essential nature.

 

well said but also and in the meantime someone has to feed the kids, pay the bills, do chores and work some kind of job... thus and only a tiny percentage of folks are or have become renunciates who maintain such a pure state,  as for a householder with duties (who granted may sometimes visit such a state) who also try's to live  a renunciate's life at the same time will incur bad karma for breaking householder Dharma ...

 

many of the masters or advanced spiritual folks quoted at this site are renunciates in various ways along with their teachings related to that life,  and do not have (or no longer have) spouses, kids, bills, 9-5 jobs,  etc. that they have to deal with in the world. 

Edited March 13 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

well said...<snip>

thanks

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

<snip>a tiny percentage of folks are or have become renunciates who maintain such a pure state,  <snip>

There is no state to maintain.

 

[old3bob]

32 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

There is no state to maintain.

 

 

true if you  no longer have any karma, ego or identification as a human, astral or causal being to deal with, thus a tiny percentage.

Edited March 13 by old3bob

[stirling]

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thank you, @stirling. Id like to clarify a few things. It is not that I do not belive in "higher states" or the possibility of everything suddenly becomming clear and a deep sense of unity. In fact, I have experienced it. I think I more so have a problem with the term, trying to "teach it," and the idea of it being constant and everlasting bliss. Trying to teach it, and trying to achieve it, does in my opinion only complicate and lead to confusion. It makes it a chase, and make it sounds grander then it is (IMO), when inner peace in many ways is giving in, to stop looking, to accept. Do I make sense?

 

Yes, thank you for your clarification.  The only thing I would comment on is that enlightenment is a "state". IMHO, states come and go. Enlightenment does eventually become the default way of perceiving, and "emptiness" is the primary quality that all appearances in consciousness posses. 

 

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

As mentioned, I too have felt this deep sense of peace and unity. But it happened out of the blue, it passed relativley quickley and to complicate things further: shortly after I went psychotic haha. I agree very much that it is not limitied to buddhism, or any other teaching. I think you find the theme of "higher counciousness" in every faith/philosophy worthy of its name. Hinduism, christian heaven, sufism, buddhism ofc...

 

I think "unity" is sort of an entry-level enlightenment color. Eventually even unity becomes diffuse and empty. 

 

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I find it hard to articulate why, but I think that a sense of unity is nesserily fleeting and that a life long feeling of peace/unity is impossible. I think unity in a way implies duality, - - = +. A

 

This is actually addressed in the "Heart Sutra":

 

Quote

form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not
differ from form.

Form itself is emptiness, emptiness
itself form.

 

Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. Shariputra, all dharmas are marked by emptiness.

While "emptiness" (unity, of sorts) can be seen moment by moment, "form" (the phenomenal world of apparent objects) doesn't go anywhere. It is precisely IN these illusory objects that emptiness is seen. Both always exist together. 

 

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Did I make any sense?

 

Absolutely. 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

well said but also and in the meantime someone has to feed the kids, pay the bills, do chores and work some kind of job... thus and only a tiny percentage of folks are or have become renunciates who maintain such a pure state,  as for a householder with duties (who granted may sometimes visit such a state) who also try's to live  a renunciate's life at the same time will incur bad karma for breaking householder Dharma ...

 

many of the masters or advanced spiritual folks quoted at this site are renunciates in various ways along with their teachings related to that life,  and do not have (or no longer have) spouses, kids, bills, 9-5 jobs,  etc. that they have to deal with in the world. 

 

My experience is that anything that can be accomplished by somebody who identifies with a self can be done by someone who has seen through self. I have had a few teachers that are householders that are/were enlightened. There is no disconnect in them from enlightened mind, as it isn't a state, and no karma is generated for them. They still do taxes and make dinner.

 

Enlightenment doesn't just exist when one is sitting on the cushion in a quiet room... what use would it be if that were the case? Enlightenment can build an outhouse, fix your car, or do brain surgery with aplomb.  

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My experience is that anything that can be accomplished by somebody who identifies with a self can be done by someone who has seen through self. I have had a few teachers that are householders that are/were enlightened. There is no disconnect in them from enlightened mind, as it isn't a state, and no karma is generated for them. They still do taxes and make dinner.

 

Enlightenment doesn't just exist when one is sitting on the cushion in a quiet room... what use would it be if that were the case? Enlightenment can build an outhouse, fix your car, or do brain surgery with aplomb.  

 

and of course that is the Buddhist take that you forgot to mention nor applicable to the points i brought up...