More Unpopular Opinions

[liminal_luke]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I also understand that my post made you feel bad, but I was responding to your (I believe dangerous) over-simplification of a very complex system, based on your view that nondual realisation is equivalent to kundalini activation. 
 

 

It´s all good, Bindi.  To clarify, my post referred to "subtle body work" as a general category.  I do not claim experience or expertise with kundalini, which, reportedly, can indeed be dangerous.  

 

There´s a Bon practice of "hosting" emotional issues in silence, spaciousness, and stillness.  When seen in the context of infinite spaciousness, difficulties that seemed overwhelming often resolve. To my mind, these "three pills" of silence, spaciousness, and stillness are attributes of the central channel.  In this way, central channel work does have a connection with emotional processing.  

 

(Perhaps I´m posting in the wrong thread, but I hope the above ideas do not prove too unpopular. Rumor has it I´m a lock for this year´s unpopularity win and don´t want to "gild the lilly.")

Edited March 16 by liminal_luke

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Either you  don’t understand or you’re being snide about non-duality being “apparently unpopular” since non-duality has the most powerful lobby group on this forum and is of course the most popular opinion hands down. Would it be so hard to just be honest and direct?

 

I'm sorry if I upset you. I was intending some amusement, yes, though I would have happily responded directly to you if I wanted to make a point with you. Nothing snide in it. My post was in reply to Mark, and was specific to it. 

 

To say that there is a "lobby group" for non-duality on a forum about Daoism (and to a lesser degree), Buddhism and Hinduism as the main topics doesn't make sense to me. The pith wisdom in them IS (in todays parlance) non-dual (a term apparently coined in the late 1700's), and always has been, though it gets presented from different perspectives. It isn't any kind of conspiracy or misguided redirection. 

 

Quote

Different theories and concepts which can be linked to nonduality and nondual awareness are taught in a wide variety of religious traditions, including some western religions and philosophies. While their metaphysical systems differ, they may refer to a similar experience.[31] 

 

These include:

Early Indian asceticism (pre-Buddhist and pre-Hindu), as documented in the Upanishads, which contain proto-Samkhya speculations and form the basis for Vedanta

 

Buddhism:

"Shūnyavāda (emptiness view) or the Mādhyamaka school",[32][33] which holds that there is a non-dual relationship (that is, there is no true separation) between conventional truth and ultimate truth, as well as between samsara and nirvana.

"Vijnānavāda (consciousness view) or the Yogācāra school",[32][34] which holds that there is no ultimate perceptual and conceptual division between a subject and its objects, or a cognizer and that which is cognized. It also argues against mind-body dualism, holding that there is only consciousness.

Tathagatagarbha-thought,[34] which holds that all beings have the potential to become Buddhas.

Vajrayana-buddhism,[35] including Tibetan Buddhist traditions of Dzogchen[36][3] and Mahamudra.[37][3]

East Asian Buddhist traditions like Zen.[38]

 

Hinduism:

The Advaita Vedanta of Shankara[39][40][3] which teaches that the Atman is pure consciousness, and that a single pure consciousness, svayam prakāśa, is the only reality, and that the world is unreal (Maya).[citation needed]

Non-dual forms of Hindu Tantra[41] including Kashmira Shaivism[42][41] and the goddess centered Shaktism. Their view is similar to Advaita, but they teach that the world is not unreal, but it is the real manifestation of consciousness.[43]

 

Taoism,[44] which teaches the idea of a single subtle universal force or cosmic creative power called Tao (literally "way").

Abrahamic traditions:

 

Christian mystics who promote a "nondual experience", such as Meister Eckhart and Julian of Norwich. The focus of this Christian nondualism is on bringing the worshiper closer to God and realizing a "oneness" with the Divine.[45]

 

Sufism[44][3]

 

Jewish Kabbalah[3]

 

Western traditions:

Western philosophers like Hegel, Spinoza and Schopenhauer.[46] They defended different forms of philosophical monism or Idealism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism#Appearance_in_various_religious_traditions

Edited March 16 by stirling

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, old3bob said:

will a cleaned up dead rat work as well?  (the fat one that stole all of Maddie's cookies)

 

Btw and FYI those rats down-under might be as big as a cat and a lot meaner....

 

No ... our  male rats fuck themselves to death and then the females eat the dead males genitals .

 

You think I am joking dont you  ?

 

 

• https://www.nationalgeographic.com › science › article › why-a-little-mammal-has-so-much-sex-that-it-disintegrates

  Why A Little Mammal Has So Much Sex That It Disintegrates

  It's August in Australia, and a small, mouse-like creature called an antechinus is busy killing himself through sex. He was a virgin until now, but for two to three weeks, this little lothario ...
• https://www.smh.com.au › national › this-aussie-rat-dies-by-sex-now-we-know-it-s-a-cannibal-too-20240119-p5eylt.html

  Antechinus: The kamikaze sex rat that's also a cannibal

  The antechinus' kamikaze sex style is a quirk of evolution. It's thought females prefer big mates with big testes, so males have evolved to be huge - three times the weight of females ...
• https://www.nationalgeographic.com › magazine › article › basic-instincts-antechinus-marsupial-sex-until-death

  Sex, Sex, and More Sex, Then Death: The Antechinus Story

  The Antechinus population has been halved—until the females bear their annual litters of four to 14 jelly-bean-size young, which, six months later, will be adults.
• https://www.australiangeographic.com.au › topics › wildlife › 2024 › 01 › antechinus-sex-cannibalism

  Antechinus observed engaging in cannibalism after sex fest

  A mainland dusky antechinus during the mating period, with fur loss visible on the shoulder, eating another antechinus. Image credit: Elliot Bowerman. Mercifully, death occurs only after the males have unloaded their precious cargo of sperm, mating with as many promiscuous females as possible in marathon, energy-sapping sessions lasting up to ...
• https://wildportraits.com.au › nature-articles › going-out-with-a-bang

  Going Out With a Bang: The Fast and Furious Sex Life of the Male Antechinus

  July 2, 2023. Yellow-footed Antechinus Antechinus flavipes, Australia's most widespread species of Antechinus. Credit: Craig Boase. In the world of mammals, both sexes of most species tend to live for an extended period of time to ensure they pass on their genes, usually over multiple breeding seasons. One group of mammals have bucked that ...
• https://www.livescience.com › 51371-animal-sex-antechinus.html

  Animal Sex: How Antechinuses Do It | Live Science

  Antechinus sex involves ambushes, intermittent copulation lasting 14 hours and ultimately suicide. ... Scientists have documented antechinus copulation events lasting for 10, 12 and even 14 hours. ...
• https://www.news.com.au › technology › science › meet-the-antechinus-a-mouselike-aussie-marsupial-that-kills-itself-by-having-too-much-sex › news-story › 48d907e3a1260057cc9f2372179f6328

  Meet the antechinus, a mouse-like Aussie marsupial that kills itself by ...

  This mouse-like marsupial, called an antechinus, humps itself to death. Over a period of two or three weeks, the antechinus has sex practically nonstop until its body disintegrates.
• https://cosmosmagazine.com › nature › animals › sex-death-and-cannibalism-antechinus-lives-get-nastier

  Sex, death and cannibalism: antechinus lives get nastier - Cosmos

  The antechinus appeared to be missing one eye, a common sign of stress-induced death. Credit: Elliot Bowerman The

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

I once read of a koan in which the master demanded the pupil pull the Eiffel Tower [sic] out of their pocket! The pupil was enlightened on the spot.

 

Some guy asked me to do  that in a public toilet -  but I decided   ..... nah , just leave , now .

 

 

.

Edited March 16 by Nungali

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

Isn’t this a bit of a straw man argument?

 

It could be ... if i was targeting you , but I wasn't .  

 

You create a scenario that I never said and proceed to ridicule the entire concept.

 

Indeed , you never said it and thats why you are not a target .  If anything I was referring to Luke  and attempting to make up something silly that no one had thought of before .... AND make it unpopular ... unfortunately  it wasnt unpopular due to the number of 'likes' .

 

However I seem to have scored one  'unpopular'  .

 

 

I remember I was first ridiculed by you when I first complained about @Jeff’s energy intrusions on me many years ago, I recall other people copied you then as well. 

 

Did I ? I remember ridiculing anyone involved  for getting sucked in and being so silly , I remember my words as well ;  " Hey people , how do you get from 'chakra work '   to 'now imagine me in women's lingerie ' ?

 

I might have even said ' how the fuck do you go from .... '  .   I was assuming others that ridiculed saw it as I did , not that they where all 'copying ' me .

 

Sorry folks , I did ridicule a lot of those that got sucked into that silly 'astral sex cult' .

 

Just like I ridicule people for a lot of things here  that seem blindingly silly, a rip-off , ego driven , etc etc

 

I have reverse imposter syndrome , I find it unbelievable that people can not see though this type of stuff and it does result in me ridiculing,  projecting disdain or disbelief or just plain down right in-credulousness

 

of course, in some circles , this makes me very .... 

 

unpopular .

 

 

 

.

Edited March 16 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My post was in reply to Mark, and was specific to it. 

 

 

I'm honored, but were you responding to:

 

Let's get SO unpopular!
 

 

Or were you responding to:

 

As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized.
 

(SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159)

 

 

I'm guessing you were actually responding to Gautama the Shakyan, and in particular to Gautama's emphasis on  a cessation of the desire "to do".   

 

I'm talking about how action can take place in the absence of volition, that to me is the verification part of "practice and verification".  You're talking about how the lack of desire results in a particular state of mind, as far as I can tell. 

 

Here's a more modern treatment--notice that there is an action that is taking place, and the emphasis is on the action, even though desire has presumably been abandoned and a wide-open state of mind has presumably been realized:
 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.
 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

"Blown out"--necessity in the movement of breath places attention, and the activity of the body follows solely from the location of attention (which is not fixed).  

The only good thing Buddhaghosa ever wrote:
 

The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (motile) air, it shows intimation and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising of walking, standing, sitting and lying down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick…

 

(Buddhaghosa, “Visuddhimagga” XI, 92; tr. Bhikku Nanamoli, Buddhist Publication Society p 360)

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

wow, black widow like rats!  Speaking of black widows I imagine your spider version is bigger than those in the US?

 

One day my daughter caught a huge black widow spider in a can and said to me, "hey dad what kind of spider is this?"  when i saw it I freaked knowing that if she had been bitten it could be really bad!!  Thankfully that didn't happen and the spider was released back into the brush.   Another story was once shown on  TV about a guy that suffered from a bite or his mate did and it was bad.  After that he became a black widow spider killer, obsessively seeking them out and smashing them in the evenings for revenge.  Kind of a creepy and risky endeavor to me...

 

 

(who needs bad spider karma?!)

 

Edited March 16 by old3bob

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

wow, black widow like rats!  Speaking of black widows I imagine your spider version is bigger than those in the US?

 

One day my daughter caught a huge black widow spider in a can and said to me, "hey dad what kind of spider is this?"  when i saw it I freaked knowing that if she had been bitten it could be really bad!!  Thankfully that didn't happen and the spider was released back into the brush.   Another story was once shown on  TV about a guy that suffered from a bite or his mate did and it was bad.  After that he became a black widow spider killer, obsessively seeking them out and smashing them in the evenings for revenge.  Kind of a creepy and risky endeavor to me...

 

 

(who needs bad spider karma?!)

 

 

I guess our unpopular  equivalent is the funnel web spider .  Fortunately  there are not that many * of them around here .

 

When I lived in the 'Hawsbury Basin ' geological area ; lots of sandstone through the ground and above surface , hollows, cracks - they like that , my neighbour had her driveway excavated a little wider . Later that day the excavator driver warned her ' When I got home I had to pressure wash the funnel webs off the excavator and trailer " .  She came and got me and we looked at the new cut into the bank ; a maze of webby tunnels  -  funnel web city .

 

*  one night I went into the kitchen a few times  and didnt bother turning that light on, it was dimly illuminated by the main room . I had been stepping over , in bare feet , some crap I though I dropped on the floor . Eventually I was ; 'What is that ?" , turned the light on ... a huge funnel web female  !

 

I put a jar over it , did the paper thing , then got a lid on .  Put the jar on the shelf, that thing stayed alive about  a week in there  , then I let it go somewhere else .

 

Ahhhh .... I remember now,   I posted about that here years back . I suggested I keep it in a box by the front door to keep the key in instead of under the mat . Then some 'wag' Daobum  here asked  ;  ' But what if you get home and find someone has stolen your spider ? '

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

my goodness what big fangs it has!!

[steve]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Some guy asked me to do  that in a public toilet -  but I decided   ..... nah , just leave , now .

 

 

.

 

My “Eiffel Tower” was once in the Guinness Book of World Records!

The librarian made me take it out…

🥴

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

My “Eiffel Tower” was once in the Guinness Book of World Records!

The librarian made me take it out…

🥴

 

 

 

That reminds me of something else that is unpopular ; the public discussion of masturbation  -  so of course I include it in my 'stand up ' act :

 

'' So .... masturbation , some people seem embarrassed  to talk about it , I dont know why ... everyone does it . Well, not me ... but I have heard everyone does it .... you guys probably do it . So I cant really criticize it , unless I try it . So I decided to. I consulted some books, watched a youtube ( well, I think it was a youtube  )  and talked to a confidential friend on how best to do it .

 

Okay I will give  it a go.  I have a  Playboy magazine open at the center -fold , I am flogging away and just as I am about to .... there is a tap on my shoulder ,

 

Newsagent : " Are you going to buy that magazine or not ?"

[Mark Foote]

37 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Newsagent : " Are you going to buy that magazine or not ?"
 

A very unpopular question.

[stirling]

On 3/16/2024 at 3:42 PM, Mark Foote said:

Or were you responding to:

 

As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized.
 

(SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159)

 

 

I'm guessing you were actually responding to Gautama the Shakyan, and in particular to Gautama's emphasis on a cessation of the desire "to do". 

 

Yes. 

 

Quote

I'm talking about how action can take place in the absence of volition, that to me is the verification part of "practice and verification".  You're talking about how the lack of desire results in a particular state of mind, as far as I can tell. 

 

Nirodha, or "cessation" isn't a state of mind, it is how mind actually is. From the Four Noble Truths entry on Wikipedia:

 

Quote

nirodha (cessation, ending, confinement): dukkha can be ended or contained by the confinement or letting go of this taṇhā (clinging)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

 

Cessation is what there is when all other trappings of "self", models, thoughts, etc. is dropped - what naturally arises. It is what is left when everything else contrived or constructed is missing. It naturally arises of its own accord, and is ALWAYS available, all one must do is pull the plug on all of systems, models, thoughts, and doing. This is accomplished by just taking the energy out of the doing. 

 

Quote

“When you are practicing zazen, do not try to stop your thinking. Let it stop by itself. If something comes into your mind, let it come in, and let it go out. It will not stay long. When you try to stop your thinking, it means you are bothered by it. Do not be bothered by anything... if you are not bothered by the waves, gradually they will become calmer and calmer.”

- Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: Informal Talks on Zen Meditation and Practice

 

I'm not disagreeing with the Buddha, but emphasizing that what we are talking about isn't special, difficult to accomplish, or complicated in any way... it is inherently simple... too simple to believe it could be what it truly is. 

[NaturaNaturans]

Unpopular opinion: yall need Jesus. The truth, the way and life, none enter the kingdom but trough him.

[Apech]

Unpopular opinion:  Kate Middleton is not dead.

 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Unpopular opinion: yall need Jesus. The truth, the way and life, none enter the kingdom but trough him.

Come to think about it, 2.4 billion belive that, so it might be the most popular opinion of all time. I am only Christian in the sense that as an european, it feels easier to

me to understand then more foreign religions. But as said, all path worthy of its name point at the same thing. This is Whats called mysticism, is it not?

[Mark Foote]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:33 PM, stirling said:

 

Cessation is what there is when all other trappings of "self", models, thoughts, etc. is dropped - what naturally arises. It is what is left when everything else contrived or constructed is missing. It naturally arises of its own accord, and is ALWAYS available, all one must do is pull the plug on all of systems, models, thoughts, and doing. This is accomplished by just taking the energy out of the doing. 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with the Buddha, but emphasizing that what we are talking about isn't special, difficult to accomplish, or complicated in any way... it is inherently simple... too simple to believe it could be what it truly is. 
 

 

 

I think of cessation in connection with the activities:

 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.

 

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness, conditioned by consciousness name-and-shape, conditioned by name-and-shape sense, conditioned by sense contact, conditioned by contact feeling, conditioned by feeling craving, conditioned by craving grasping, conditioned by grasping becoming, conditioned by becoming birth, conditioned by birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of ill.

 

But from the utter fading away and ceasing of ignorance [comes] ceasing of the activities; from ceasing of activities ceasing of consciousness; ...  from ceasing of birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

(SN II 2, Pali Text Society Vol II pg 2)

 

A lovely lecture from a woman of the Order--not Gautama, but I think insightful (the editors of Majjhima have Gautama agreeing with what she said after the fact, of course):

 

... is a tendency to attachment to be got rid of from every pleasant feeling?  Is a tendency to repugnance to be got rid of from every painful feeling?  Is a tendency to ignorance to be got rid of from every neutral feeling?

No friend Visakha...  In this case... (a person), aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, enters on and abides in the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful.  It is by this means that (one) gets rid of attachment, no tendency to attachment lies there.  In this case... (a person) reflects thus:  'Surely I, entering on it, will abide in that plane which the (nobles), entering on, are now abiding in.  From setting up a yearning for the incomparable Deliverances there arises, as a result of the yearning, distress; it is by this means that (one) gets rid of repugnance, no tendency to repugnance lies latent there.  In this case... (a person), by getting rid of that joy, and by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of (their) former pleasures and sorrows, enters on and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness.  It is by this means that (one) gets rid of ignorance, no tendency to ignorance lies latent there.

 

(MN I 303-304, PTS vol. I p 366-367, "The Miscellany (Lesser)", attributed to the nun Dhammadinna)

 

 

Just throwing that out there, to cement my unpopularity.  

 

Is cessation a natural thing?  Of course!  Then again:

 

... for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by Mark Foote

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 yall need Jesus. The truth, the way and life, none enter the kingdom but trough him.

 

Entering the Kingdom of Heaven through Jesus is code for the same awakening the Buddhists talk about.  It´s not so different.  Christianity is nondualism for people who like singing and potlucks.

Edited March 20 by liminal_luke

[Elysium]

Though this is becoming less and less of an unpopular opinion nowadays, iq tests really doesn't do much but measure a single part of intelligence, and its up to debate if it does a good job at it.

 

Anyone bragging about their results aren't as bright as they think they are.

[NaturaNaturans]

4 minutes ago, Elysium said:

Though this is becoming less and less of an unpopular opinion nowadays, iq tests really doesn't do much but measure a single part of intelligence, and its up to debate if it does a good job at it.

 

Anyone bragging about their results aren't as bright as they think they are.

Anyone bragging about it is retarted. That being said, in fairness it does measure problem solving ability very well, and does correlate strongly to academic and career achievement. What it does not, is say anything about more important stuff like wisdom, rationality, empathy, social skills… list goes on

[NaturaNaturans]

Speaking of intellectual ability:

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Anyone bragging about it is retarted. ....