Actual purpose of the dantian?

[Trunk]

indulging in redundancy, resorting to art

 

to illustrate further, from the viewpt of dantien as integral with the One Light

 

in a very simple way, what are the mechanics to get that to happen?

 

- jade is both hard & soft, so represents being "well blended".  all the work we do to prepare ourselves.

- the hole in the center is the small quiet deep-center, and has a special relationship to "pervasive awareness at large" (they're the same)

- the diamond is a "bindu" and has deep resonance with Vast Awareness

 

Then there's the process:

- resolutely resting our attention in that quiet still space

- blending the elements into the center

- let them dissolve there

- stay there for a while 

 

 

(click a picture for whole art essay, JohnDaoProductions.wordpress.com)

[HumanElectric]

On 12/31/2023 at 8:42 AM, kakapo said:

 

There are thousands of schools of thought as to the purpose of the LDT is.

 

My advice to you would be first to clearly define what you are trying to achieve, and then look for schools that can offer you good hard objective evidence they do that, and then ask them what the actual purpose of the LDT is.

 

If you take everyone's opinion as equally valid without regard to evidence, then you will be lost in nothing but static.  You need a way to separate the signal from the noise.

I will keep this in mind. Thank you.

[f-man]

j

Edited January 10 by f-man

[Master Logray]

14 minutes ago, f-man said:

I don't know about the purpose of dantian. But I know, that for me, dantian area as a focus point did not work well for a long time. I think it's already pretty advanced stuff to have energy pooling there. If you try it too early, you just get frustrated because of the stuck, hard feelings down there.

 

I think dantian is more about meditation on 'energy' than breathing practices. If you mix the moving of air into the game, things get messy. However, you should first learn the mechanics of normal breathing. This will ensure that the blocks for deeper, lower, meditative breathing are gone. First learn to walk, then run.

 

Mastering (maybe) diaphragmatic breathing was a game changer for me. Diaphragmatic breathing is not belly breathing, although it is the first lie to pop up on the internet. Best way to learn it for me was:

-Relax stomach. Don't do nothing with it. Don't focus on it. Don't puff it on inhalation. Dont suck it in on exhalation, or reverse.

-Focus on relaxed passive exhalation. The key point is backside, just below the deepest part of lungs. Forget the frontside totally. Deepen the exhalation from this backside point, expelling more air. If you utilize core muscles, you can expel even more air.

 

Empty The cup before pouring new tea into it. This lays the foundation for the rest of stuff!

 

 

Good observation.  You have talent.

 

[Trunk]

16 hours ago, f-man said:

..

I think it's already pretty advanced stuff to have energy pooling there. If you try it too early, you just get frustrated because of the stuck, hard feelings down there.

 

.. ensure that the blocks for deeper, lower, meditative breathing are gone. First learn to walk, then run.

..

Empty The cup before pouring new tea into it. This lays the foundation for the rest of stuff!

 

Dovetails very much where my mind was going ...

What are the stages of experience that we are experiencing re: LDT - breathing?

 

I think that the practice of 'following the breath', + some sort of opening the body in conjunction with breathing + stabilized attention, is assumed to be already established.

And then the breathing in the LDT can be felt as physical and unrefined as mud.

... all the way to very refined consciousness integration, and everything in between...

from physical to very subtle.

It's interesting navigating the changes, and see what changes occur over time.

[dwai]

On 12/25/2023 at 12:58 PM, Taomeow said:

 

Or, by another name, the "yellow sprouts court." 

 

What's the dantien for?  It's like any other potential that you can develop and use for whatever you're aiming to accomplish.  In this sense it's no different from the ability to acquire language, to read and write, to ride a bicycle, to juggle a dozen tennis balls, to form an emotional relationship with a human or animal or even a device. (Song in the background: "I'm In Love With My Car.")  You are born with the potential; you may learn to use this potential spontaneously upon exposure to whatever tools help it actualize, or (more often) via a particular set of practices that develop it.  

 

What do we develop the dantien for?  It's like asking what our writing ability is for.  Once you got it, how you refine and use it is your choice.  Become Shakespeare or get into arguments with strangers online.  Or both.   

I was thinking more along the lines of “what is the heart for” or “liver for” and so on. Dantiens are NOT created, they already exist. 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I was thinking more along the lines of “what is the heart for” or “liver for” and so on. Dantiens are NOT created, they already exist. 

 

What about your native tongue?  When you are born, does it already exist in you or is it created in you?  

 

A dantien, as a very knowledgeable practitioner explained to me (then a beginner) a long time ago, is a product of co-creation between your innate potential and your exposures and practices.  In that sense it is no different from being able to acquire a native tongue -- I don't speak yours and you don't speak mine, but we were each both born with the ability to develop either one of them, it's exposures and practices that made it happen -- and being different, they resulted in different languages.  "They already exist" -- well, as a potential.  But exposures and practices is what turns them on.  Or not.  Does everybody (barring any kind of damage that might interfere) have machinery to acquire language?  Yes.  Is everybody born speaking it?  Nope.  And if you're raised by animals from an early enough age and miss the window of opportunity that is open only up to a certain age, you will never speak -- real-life stories of this nature are well known.  Real-life stories of inactive dantiens are not as obvious, but then, neither are stories of active ones.  It's subtle phenomena, but they are phenomena of co-creation, like many other things about us humans.

Edited January 4 by Taomeow

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

What about your native tongue?  When you are born, does it already exist in you or is it created in you?  

That seems like a false equivalence to me

Language is an acquired skill. Lifeforce is not. We either have it, or we are dead  

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

A dantien, as a very knowledgeable practitioner explained to me (then a beginner) a long time ago, is a product of co-creation between your innate potential and your exposures and practices.  In that sense it is no different from being able to acquire a native tongue -- I don't speak yours and you don't speak mine, but we were each both born with the ability to develop either one of them, it's exposures and practices that made it happen -- and being different, they resulted in different languages.  "They already exist" -- well, as a potential.  But exposures and practices is what turns them on.  Or not.  Does everybody (barring any kind of damage that might interfere) have machinery to acquire language?  Yes.  Is everybody born speaking it?  Nope.  And if you're raised by animals from an early enough age and miss the window of opportunity that is open only up to a certain age, you will never speak -- real-life stories of this nature are well known.  Real-life stories of inactive dantiens are not as obvious, but then, neither are stories of active ones.  It's subtle phenomena, but they are phenomena of co-creation, like many other things about us humans.

I disagree. It doesn't exist merely as a potential - it exists simply by being alive (qi, if I may call it that). What might happen, IMHO, is that one's exposure and practices refine it/enhance it. 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

That seems like a false equivalence to me

Language is an acquired skill. Lifeforce is not. We either have it, or we are dead  

 

I don't think you're getting my drift.  If you were to look into how language is acquired (as I did, cognitive neuroscience used to be a huge hobby) you would hold off with that "false" label.  And it's not an equivalence, it's an analogy.

  

Also, I was talking about dantiens, not "lifeforce," whatever that means to you.  What does "lifeforce" mean to you?  To me it means to bring a taoist conversation to the lowest common denominator.  

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

I disagree. It doesn't exist merely as a potential - it exists simply by being alive (qi, if I may call it that). What might happen, IMHO, is that one's exposure and practices refine it/enhance it. 

 

Again, we are talking about the dantiens, a particular and specific way the system can process qi if it is fully operational.  Not about qi.  And certainly not about "lifeforce."  Just dantiens.   

[Bindi]

I think the ‘container’ exists but it’s not full, by analogy the ding or cauldron exists but it’s not full of subtle ‘water’ and the subtle water doesn’t ‘heat up’ without certain conditions being met. What it’s for most directly is to enable the dantian above it - the heart - to fill up with converted ‘jing’ when it rises. When all the dantians are full and operating I think this leads to balancing our Yin and Yang forces on a very deep fundamental level. 

[Master Logray]

In another post, I mentioned the "rough" cultivation method on Dantien.  After checking, I find out more, there are methods like Hit, Hold, Turn, Shake, Rub, Push, Vibratory hit, Spray and Dangle.   These are ways to activate.  The Hit Method is to use your belly to hit a tree or a pole continuously .   Of course, using the attention and breathing would also work.  These are probably more potent yet dangerous.  I won't suggest anyone doing such unless guided by experienced teacher, and another reason is they take quite a bit of time everyday.  

 

Regarding the storage function, I doubt the "container" analogy.  When Chi is considered light and fine (otherwise it cannot go through the inside of the body), there must be significant physical change to develop a "container".  In that case, modern medical checks would certainly reveal its presence.  The more probable explanation may be the fluid theory within the small belly space.  They are a sort of magnet to keep a certain amount of Chi in place. 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I don't think you're getting my drift.  If you were to look into how language is acquired (as I did, cognitive neuroscience used to be a huge hobby) you would hold off with that "false" label.  And it's not an equivalence, it's an analogy.

Maybe, can you elaborate on  your theory of how language is acquired? 

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

  

Also, I was talking about dantiens, not "lifeforce," whatever that means to you.  What does "lifeforce" mean to you?  To me it means to bring a taoist conversation to the lowest common denominator.  

Life force is that which animates the living being. At its core it is awareness/consciousness. At different frequencies of vibration is it known differently as Jing, qi, shen in the context of a biological entity. 
 

BTW i think the lowest common denominator is the best place to start a discussion.  

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Again, we are talking about the dantiens, a particular and specific way the system can process qi if it is fully operational.  Not about qi.  And certainly not about "lifeforce."  Just dantiens.   

And how is a discussion of dantien complete without dicussing qi?

 

[JKJB]

On 31.12.2023 at 12:17 AM, Neirong said:

No, the reality is that people in the past, and as always, used cryptic words to conceal the real meaning. If you write a book that is spread/preserved publicly, you encrypt the content so only the right people (initiated in tradition) can fully benefit. Mercury, in alchemical texts, is not even a physical substance.
 

It is a test for a fool. Someone who stole the text would consume poison and die suffering instead of any benefit.
Sometimes you would simply waste time going the wrong path. Sometimes, authors can be ruthless. Understandably, in the past, thieves had their hands cut off.

All of the esoteric knowledge was encrypted. Tarot for example, was turned into a card game and then into a tool for reading future. Those applications of Tarot are even less adequate than using expensive smartphone device to hit nails into wood.
 

Well, you don't have any real experience. I have written a research paper on astral larvae and how they are connected to various addictions and obsessions. It is always a difficult thing when you don't have much experience working with it.
 

For people without any abilities or skills in magic, there are exorcism rituals like in church, which can be quite effective and don't require the ingestion of any poisons.

 

But yes though. You are wrong here. 

 

Where you are semi right is that Cinnabar and mercury in some texts are used as cryptic symbols etc. But in most they are not and there are a multitude of formulas in TCM where small amounts of Red Cinnabar is used to clear heat and other issues etc. Especially because it helps flush the kidneys without harbouring mercury like if you were an actual fool and didn't know the difference between mercury and Red Cinnabar... 

Formulas still used to this day in TCM not limited to: 

 

Sheng Tie Luo Yin, Ci Zhu Wan, Zhen Ling Dan, Zi Xue Dan, Zhi Bao Dan, Hui Chun Dan, Su He Xiang Wan, Qi Li San, Bing Peng San, Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, Zhen Zhu Mu Wan, Niu Huang Qing Xin Wan.

 

But these doctors are just prescribing these as a cryptic test to see if the patients are stupid enough to ingest poison.. 

 

Instead of intellectually pissing of some grounds of territory by spouting you wrote a paper on it or claiming your titles like this actually proves to me you are knowledgeable in other areas than bluffing your will through with gullible people by claiming authority by reflex when you encounter areas where you find yourself lacking. 

 

If the Church really wanted to help with this they would hire a lot more people and start to learn many more skills than they do, and they don't have a good success-rate either I've been told most places and the one dude covering often for a whole country or district is booked for a long time and often not very versatile in skills. 

 

The truth is that the Church imploys more dark forces inforcing their will WITH demons than the other way around. Thus seeking help from the same culprits perpetuating this mess on so very many people would be like asking the online scammer to help you install anti-virus software. 

 

 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Maybe, can you elaborate on  your theory of how language is acquired? 

 

 

I don't have "my" theory, it's a well-studied area of cognitive neuroscience that I was referring to as an analogy (not  "equivalency") to the development of the dantien.  For a brief intro, check out, e.g.,     

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8923642/

https://www.scilearn.com/the-reading-brain/#:~:text=The angular and supramarginal gyrus,we can then read aloud.

 

Briefly, the acquisition of language, which is contingent on exposure, practice, and timing, results in the creation of anatomical changes in the brain that tantamount to the creation of a new organ within it.  Specialized areas with specialized connections that together get to work like any other specialized organ of the body tasked with a particular function.  The difference being, you are not born with this organ, the co-creation between the innate potential and you and your environment and effort has to bring it into being.   

 

It can also be likened somewhat to how the orchestra conductor gets numerous various instruments to play together in a coherent interconnected and interdependent manner to create the sound of a symphony.  It's not that each instrument didn't exist before they were assembled into an orchestra-- but the orchestra didn't exist, it is a product of co-creation.  It is of course infinitely simpler than the orchestration of the brain for language inception and expert discernment and usage.  But as an analogy, either process can be a good illustration of how a dantien is created from the potential to create it.  Yes, qi abounds, with or without being organized, structured and directed/conducted in a particular coherent meaningful manner -- but it is this directed, conducted, structured, organized, meaningful usage of it that develops an anatomical foothold in the human body out of the potential present at birth.  And this is the function of the dantien.  You have to organize and harmonize the flow a certain specific way before it can assume certain functions for which you are born with a potential to create them but not the function itself nor the organ.    

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Life force is that which animates the living being. At its core it is awareness/consciousness. At different frequencies of vibration is it known differently as Jing, qi, shen in the context of a biological entity. 

 

 

I see.  The numerous ways in which I disagree, for some other time.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

BTW i think the lowest common denominator is the best place to start a discussion.  

 

 

Unless it entails throwing the baby out with bathwater.  "Lifeforce," "awareness/consciousness" used axiomatically as something "everybody knows" is an example of the kind of lowest-common-denominator reductionist approach that can hamper the emergence of comprehension -- forever.  (I believe that to a large extent the world is the way it is due to a multitude of such reductionist labels habitually used instead of...  but that, again, is for some other time, should it come.)        

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

And how is a discussion of dantien complete without dicussing qi?

 

 

Within discussing dantiens qi is in its rightful place, but when my point is "dantien is co-creation between potential and actualization/exposure/practice" and you substitute the word "qi" for the word "dantien" and argue that "it just IS" the conversation is rendered meaningless, alas. 

In case my take asks for further clarification: yes, qi "just is" (though it isn't limited to "lifeforce" by any stretch of taoist imagination) but a dantien is something you may or may not develop to the extent it becomes a "quasi-organ," a locus-system-function engaged in meaningful orchestration of qi toward a particular modus operandi.  

Edited January 5 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

[Michael Sternbach]

28 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

 

LOL!

 

Everyone has all three Dantians, though they may not be active or perceptible to the same degree in different individuals.

 

The only way to actually know you have an LDT is to directly experience it. A common sensation being the sense of an energy ball in your lower abdomen.

 

Mental and physical focus on it, appropriate breathing, practices like zazen and MCO should help you feel your LDT.

[Taomeow]

22 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

 

Sometimes there's indirect indicators, none of them definitive, but sort of pointers.   E.g., 

a very intensely developed "gut feeling" (I call those feelings "warning and promises") that you routinely use to guide your decisions (and regret not listening to whenever you chose to ignore them or are forced to ignore them);

having carried a pregnancy to term;

a  history of dantien-developing practices and "internal" arts -- neigong, neidan, neijia;

somewhat frisky metabolism;

a tendency to bounce back from setbacks instead of going deeper into the mire when they do occur;

etc.

This is one of those things where imagination, visualization, "assuming" you have it are helpful toward actually developing it. (Not in the case of pregnancy of course.)  Unlike with your fancy restaurant example, where no amount of imagining more money in your wallet than it actually contains will materialize extra dollar bills, undertaking a good traditional dantien-developing practice and going about it "as if" you already have a dantien does help it form and function.  That's how children start learning -- by imitating a function they can't yet competently perform -- but this play activity does facilitate the emergence of the actual ability.  It's somewhat similar.        

 

[Taoist Texts]

44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

if you had to ask then you already have it

 

10 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Everyone has all three Dantians, ....

The only way to actually know you have an LDT is to directly experience it

there is a joke somewhere here

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Life force is that which animates the living being

apparently you never been suffocated

Quote

Language is an acquired skill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innateness_hypothesis

[Michael Sternbach]

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How would I know if I have a lower dan tien or not?

 

(It strikes me that this question is a little like asking how much a certain item costs at a fancy restaurant: if ya have to ask, you can't afford it.)

 

Expanding on my previous reply...

 

Of course, you could always do the old "lower-your-centre-of-gravity" trick for starters.

 

Stand and breathe as you normally do. Have a sufficiently strong person lift you a few inches off the ground with ease.

 

Next, breathe into your lower abdomen (while physiologically incorrect, that's how it will feel, anyway). Relax your body while keeping it upright. "Make yourself heavy" by visualizing your centre of gravity well below your navel.

 

Once you feel this (and take your time, initially, it may take a minute or so to get there), ask your mate again to "give you  lift."

 

Chances are, this time, you will observe their face turning red, their breath coming in gasps, as they will give it their best effort, to no avail. 🥵

 

That's when you should have learnt a thing or two about your LDT. 🙂

[steve]

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