How to build Qi?

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

So "standard" sports training is better for building energy than QiGong?

Sports also consume energy, muscles need recovery, a strict nutrition, sleep schedule etc is needed to support it, otherwise it may lead to collapse

 

In terms of personal experience, if I train too hard (*) in the winter, I just get depleted of energy ( call it Qi or whatevs) and ultimately get sick.

 

This doesn't happen in the summer when I train too hard, it's very correlated to more energy loss to sustain temperature during the winter.

 

Also in the winter if I don't train too hard I don't get sick.

 

It seems like it's all about energy depletion and this is one of the main reasons why I want to learn Qigong 

 

(*) Hard as in preparing for racing, really pushing my self with many and intense training sessions per week.

 

This is just based on my personal observations of fellow students when I was in school and patients now. I just consistently noticed that the very athletic ones seem like they have the most qi. The people who exclusively do Qigong seem like they have much less.

[Sanity Check]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

This is just based on my personal observations of fellow students when I was in school and patients now. I just consistently noticed that the very athletic ones seem like they have the most qi. The people who exclusively do Qigong seem like they have much less.

 

 

This sentiment was echoed by comic books in japan.

 

I think it was Baki the Grappler which tried to emphasize the point.

 

If anyone can believe that.  

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

This is just based on my personal observations of fellow students when I was in school and patients now. I just consistently noticed that the very athletic ones seem like they have the most qi. The people who exclusively do Qigong seem like they have much less.

 

The ones without Chi would not be interested in athletics or anything that tax them too much.   The people who are weak or sick tend to do Qigong, which is easier than other competitive or lengthy sports.

 

 

9 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

So "standard" sports training is better for building energy than QiGong?

Sports also consume energy, muscles need recovery, a strict nutrition, sleep schedule etc is needed to support it, otherwise it may lead to collapse

 

 

You can refer to @dwai's post, he said it beautifully, repetitive tasks.    Normal sports (training mode) can be turned into Qigong too. 

But they often spend more than save, too fast, using your mind (competitive, distraction), too strenuous (1/2 hour push up?)....

 

Walking alone in a prison's open square slowly would be ideal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

So "standard" sports training is better for building energy than QiGong?

Sports also consume energy, muscles need recovery, a strict nutrition, sleep schedule etc is needed to support it, otherwise it may lead to collapse

 

In terms of personal experience, if I train too hard (*) in the winter, I just get depleted of energy ( call it Qi or whatevs) and ultimately get sick.

 

This doesn't happen in the summer when I train too hard, it's very correlated to more energy loss to sustain temperature during the winter.

 

Also in the winter if I don't train too hard I don't get sick.

 

It seems like it's all about energy depletion and this is one of the main reasons why I want to learn Qigong 

 

(*) Hard as in preparing for racing, really pushing my self with many and intense training sessions per week.

If you want to have more qi you should do neigong and stillness meditation over qigong. Qigong uses qi and moves it around the body. It’s good for you but doing too much of it without doing neigong or seated stillness to replenish your qi isn’t good for you.

 

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

This is just based on my personal observations of fellow students when I was in school and patients now. I just consistently noticed that the very athletic ones seem like they have the most qi. The people who exclusively do Qigong seem like they have much less.

This is the key part. At the very least, do seated stillness meditation at the end of your qigong sessions. And do physical exercise 3 times a week with a day rest in between. Doing qigong alone is not enough, which is why a lot of systems also have a martial arts element (which will be their physical exercise).

Edited January 2 by Pak_Satrio

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

This is just based on my personal observations of fellow students when I was in school and patients now. I just consistently noticed that the very athletic ones seem like they have the most qi. The people who exclusively do Qigong seem like they have much less.

 

Hm, so maybe learning Qigong for that purpose is not worth it in my case 🤔. Thanks for this, better to think now if the other two reasons for wanting to learn Qigong justify paying course fees.

 

 

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Hm, so maybe learning Qigong for that purpose is not worth it in my case 🤔. Thanks for this, better to think now if the other two reasons for wanting to learn Qigong justify paying course fees.

 

 

 

I do think qigong is useful though in much the same way I think yoga is useful. It stretches the ligaments and lubricates the joints. This is why I do yoga and pilates together. Yoga helps keep me flexible and pilates and jujitsu helps me build strength and energy. 

 

If we compare the human body to a city you have to generate power and circulate it. So maybe athletic exercise is like the power plant and more gentle movements like yoga or Qigong are like well maintained power lines. 

Edited January 2 by Maddie

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

If you want to have more qi you should do neigong and stillness meditation over qigong.

 

My only issue with that is the classic Bodhi Dharma scenario when he first came to the Shaolin Temple where the monks were almost exclusively doing sitting meditation and he was shocked at their poor state of health. This does not scream qi generation.

 

So what did he do? Say y'all need to keep doing more of that? No. He came up with physical exercises.

 

Some of my patients are athletes. Not only do they look much healthier and stronger but when I do pulse diagnosis I can objectively tell that they're qi is extremely high.

 

I have other patients who are the meditation types but don't exercise and they don't look very healthy and they are always low on energy, but they do have well trained minds which is also very important.

Edited January 2 by Maddie

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

I do think qigong is useful though in much the same way I think yoga is useful. It stretches the ligaments and lubricates the joints. This is why I do yoga and pilates together. Yoga helps keep me flexible and pilates and jujitsu helps me build strength and energy. 

 

If we compare the human body to a city you have to generate power and circulate it. So maybe athletic exercise is like the power plant and more gentle movements like yoga or Qigong are like well maintained power lines. 

 

Ah, good then, that's good enough of a reason, esp if it lubricates areas between discs in the spine (?)

 

I do 15 mins dynamic stretching and 15 mins of static stretching before and after training sessions but tbh I could definitely do more in that department.

 

I've been avoiding the local yoga circuit where I live as a lot of teachers claim to see auras and that type of stuff, their statements are 100x more extravagant than folks who have actually lived most of their lives in Buddhist temples as monks, spent years in silent retreat etc - and that for me is simply is a huge red flag. So though Qigong folks may be more down to earth.

 

Won't mindful stretching ( typically taught as "yoga" in mindfulness courses ) have a similar effect? Or QiGong does this better?

Edited January 2 by snowymountains

[Maddie]

29 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Ah, good then, that's good enough of a reason, esp if it lubricates areas between discs in the spine (?)

 

I do 15 mins dynamic stretching and 15 mins of static stretching before and after training sessions but tbh I could definitely do more in that department.

 

I've been avoiding the local yoga circuit where I live as a lot of teachers claim to see auras and that type of stuff, their statements are 100x more extravagant than folks who have actually lived most of their lives in Buddhist temples as monks, spent years in silent retreat etc - and that for me is simply is a huge red flag. So though Qigong folks may be more down to earth.

 

Won't mindful stretching ( typically taught as "yoga" in mindfulness courses ) have a similar effect? Or QiGong does this better?

 

Keeping your spine flexible and healthy is probably the single most important thing you can do for your health and longevity! So that is definitely not wasted effort. Why do I say this? The vast majority of my patients are there for back problems.

 

I just do yoga at home off of YouTube. I don't care for what I call the magic unicorn people either 😂🌈🦄. I knew a lot of qigong people in acupuncture school and they are definitely not anymore down to earth than yoga people lol.

 

If you stretch and you call it qigong, if you stretch and you call it yoga, if you stretch and you call it stretching, you're doing the same thing regardless of the label lol.

Edited January 2 by Maddie

[Sahaja]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

My only issue with that is the classic Bodhi Dharma scenario when he first came to the Shaolin Temple where the monks were almost exclusively doing sitting meditation and he was shocked at their poor state of health. This does not scream qi generation.

 

So what did he do? Say y'all need to keep doing more of that? No. He came up with physical exercises.

 

Some of my patients are athletes. Not only do they look much healthier and stronger but when I do pulse diagnosis I can objectively tell that they're qi is extremely high.

 

I have other patients who are the meditation types but don't exercise and they don't look very healthy and they are always low on energy, but they do have well trained minds which is also very important.

Another view is that he came up with set of principals  (not specific exercises) to develop the body and mind with a model of qi to huang to tendon to bone to marrow (marrow includes heart and brain tissue and introduces shen based techniques and ultimately goes the whole way ). He purportedly assessed his pupils based on how deep they had gone - skin level the lowest level student and marrow the highest. then martial artists heard about the strength of his method and came to learn about them and incorporate the principles into their systems.
Generally you need to achieve and maintain some basic level of physical fitness  to do and to benefit from a  system that is based on his principles as opening the body with neigong is pretty intensely physical and mentally demanding work involving the deepest channels that takes a long time. . Medical qi gong not so much. Skin level qi gong not so much (e.g feeling qi between the hands or on the skin, etc).  Generally energetic methods should be combined with something like  martial arts or hiking on hills (or other activities that vigorously work the legs) along with regular stretching through release so the body can achieve, process and absorb  the benefits of the energetic work at whatever level they are doing it. 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, Master Logray said:

Movement Gongs, like Taichi and other internal martial arts, can use up Chi too, may be even more than generated when one is seriously practicing.  Statics like sitting, reduce the use and leakage of Chi. 

Movement gongs(動功), like Tai chi is a form of Qigong as well as an internal practice(Neigong). Tai Chi is always practiced at a moderate speed that will not consume more energy than it was produced. The movements of the muscles at moderate speed will continue to activate the body cells in generating chi. Likewise,  ZZ has the same effect when the muscles are slightly contracted. The more experienced practitioners, at low stance, it indicates more muscle tone and stronger legs. Please note that both Tai Chi and ZZ will have the condition of slight contraction in the muscles. That is the key to all martial arts practices.

PS
Static sitting with abdominal breathing will help to generate chi to keep the body function better and healthier.

Edited January 2 by ChiDragon

[Master Logray]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Movement gongs(動功), like Tai chi is a form of Qigong as well as an internal practice(Neigong). Tai Chi is always practiced at a moderate speed that will not consume more energy than it was produced. The movements of the muscles at moderate speed will continue to activate the body cells in generating chi. Likewise,  ZZ has the same effect when the muscles are slightly contracted. The more experienced practitioners, at low stance, it indicates more muscle tone and stronger legs. Please note that both Tai Chi and ZZ will have the condition of slight contraction in the muscles. That is the key to all martial arts practices.

PS
Static sitting with abdominal breathing will help to generate chi to keep the body function better and healthier.

 

 

TaiChi is supposed to be as slow as possible in training.  Park or community centre Taichi could be in moderate speed.  Performance Taichi is even faster and sometimes very fast as no one bother to watch from start to finish.  It is the need to train the person's perception on internal muscle, tendon and ligaments, even on how the Chi and blood flow.  This is the foundation of Qigong too.  The second reason is high precision of movements that takes time to align and master.  Speeding up will make the person ignore all these subtleties.   Without the internal side, most Taichi are reduced to external arts, not much benefits to the body and frequently hurt students.

 

Another dimension is about fighting (external).  You have to be slow to learn "perceiving the force" 聽勁, for both yourself and the opponent.

 

As a guide, each movement could take 20 seconds, depending on the condition of the body.  A full routine of 108-119 moves take 40 minutes.  It could be faster when the person masters the necessaries or one ages.  With this level of exercise, with preliminaries and so on, muscle strength is not an issue, exhaustion is.

 

The above is about the training, in actual fighting, Taichi is expected to be very fast, reactive but fast.  The hard training makes one fast in perception and react with appropriate speed intelligently. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

TaiChi is supposed to be as slow as possible in training.  Park or community centre Taichi could be in moderate speed.  Performance Taichi is even faster and sometimes very fast as no one bother to watch from start to finish.  It is the need to train the person's perception on internal muscle, tendon and ligaments, even on how the Chi and blood flow.  This is the foundation of Qigong too.  The second reason is high precision of movements that takes time to align and master.  Speeding up will make the person ignore all these subtleties.   Without the internal side, most Taichi are reduced to external arts, not much benefits to the body and frequently hurt students.

 

Another dimension is about fighting (external).  You have to be slow to learn "perceiving the force" 聽勁, for both yourself and the opponent.

 

As a guide, each movement could take 20 seconds, depending on the condition of the body.  A full routine of 108-119 moves take 40 minutes.  It could be faster when the person masters the necessaries or one ages.  With this level of exercise, with preliminaries and so on, muscle strength is not an issue, exhaustion is.

 

The above is about the training, in actual fighting, Taichi is expected to be very fast, reactive but fast.  The hard training makes one fast in perception and react with appropriate speed intelligently. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In addition to the comments above, Tai Chi (Yang style) is practiced slowly to allow time for the Jin to fully run on each movement.   Traditionally people often studied  Xing Yi along side Tai chi as it was much more quickly learned and could provide a fast very aggressive  art for protection while they invested the long years in practicing Tai Chi to be able to use it martially and for cultivation. There is a saying that the tai Chi student can’t leave the school for 10 years but the Xing yi student can leave after 1 year, or something to that effect.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Normally, one practice one style will stay with it until it reaches perfection. I would not mix it with any other styles as a thumb of rule. One must one style at a time, then, go to learn another.

 

I would not mix it with the TCM theory to understand the style neither.

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, Sahaja said:

In addition to the comments above, Tai Chi (Yang style) is practiced slowly to allow time for the Jin to fully run on each movement.   Traditionally people often studied  Xing Yi along side Tai chi as it was much more quickly learned and could provide a fast very aggressive  art for protection while they invested the long years in practicing Tai Chi to be able to use it martially and for cultivation. There is a saying that the tai Chi student can’t leave the school for 10 years but the Xing yi student can leave after 1 year, or something to that effect.

 

Indeed Taichi is an inefficient system, both in terms of martial and cultivation.  It is Qigong, but is not an efficient QG.   But once you master Taichi, all QG become very easy for you.   The original purpose of Taichi was not for first line combat, but as a fall back when one is getting old and as an avenue into the inner world.    This system can still be useful even when the person is old as it doesn't really depend on muscle and bone powers.

 

 

18 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Normally, one practice one style will stay with it until it reaches perfection. I would not mix it with any other styles as a thumb of rule. One must one style at a time, then, go to learn another.

 

 

They affect each other even learn separately.  Somehow you end up having A style and a B style that has an A feel.

[ChiDragon]

32 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

.....They affect each other even learn separately.  Somehow you end up having A style and a B style that has an A feel.

 You will never master either one of them.

Edited January 3 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Indeed Taichi is an inefficient system, both in terms of martial and cultivation.  It is Qigong, but is not an efficient QG.   But once you master Taichi, all QG become very easy for you.   The original purpose of Taichi was not for first line combat, but as a fall back when one is getting old and as an avenue into the inner world.    This system can still be useful even when the person is old as it doesn't really depend on muscle and bone powers.

 

I don't think I can justify all that except what's in bold.

Tai Chi is to condition the body for combat by cultivation. Tai Chi practitioners may never encounter in combat. However, at the right time, the internal energy(jin or 勁) in the body is ready for action as required. Jin or 勁 is the internal strength acquired from the diligent practice of Tai Chi. It is called Qigong is because abdominal breathing was involved. BTW I believe that human body coordination depends muscle and bone to stand up for balance.

P.S.
If you want to see what the ability of a 75 year old can do, please go to my PPD.

Edited January 3 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The OP says How to Building Qi?
In Taiji term, it is how to build jin(勁). To build jin is by practicing Taiji diligently.

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

… Somehow you end up having A style and a B style that has an A feel.

 

5 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

 You will never master either one of them.

 

Very true. Just like imo one can never fully understand a religion unless one is born into it and lived it for a lifetime. 

 

 

Edited January 4 by Cobie

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The OP says How to Building Qi?
 

 

Strayed.  BTW I always want to know whether the tiles in your garden is coarse or smooth, what kind?  Got mosquitos around when you practise?

 

 

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

Very true. Just like imo one can never fully understand a religion unless one is born into it and lived it for a lifetime. 

 

 

It happens in language more.  This particular situation of "crossover" is worse than languages.  e.g. speaking/learning Dutch and German, Portuguese and Spanish, when they are so similar.   It would be easier to distinguish Korean and Arabic.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Strayed.  BTW I always want to know whether the tiles in your garden is coarse or smooth, what kind?  Got mosquitos around when you practise?

 

The tiles are coarse. They are just regular stepping cement blocks. I wear rubber sole kung fu shoes. So, it doesn't restrict my foot movements.

 

Sometimes, there are one or two mosquitos flying around my arms. I also killed one of them once awhile. They bothered my wife more than I  do.

Edited January 4 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, Master Logray said:

It happens in language more.  This particular situation of "crossover" is worse than languages.  e.g. speaking/learning Dutch and German, Portuguese and Spanish, when they are so similar.   It would be easier to distinguish Korean and Arabic.

I take this to imply the DDJ is easier to read for non-‘native speakers’ * , they are less likely to:

- use the modern Chinese meanings for characters 

- impose the current Chinese cultural paradigm on the meaning

 

~~~

* There’s academic research into the meaning of the characters at the time of writing of texts, and also into the culture at that time. It often differs from the current use/opinion.  
 

 

Edited January 4 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited January 7 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

It does make me wonder now. May I ask what your cultural background is? And what your first language is?

 

 

Off topic again?

[Cobie]

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Edited January 7 by Cobie