The concept of God

[old3bob]

 

"Pantheism is usually defined as the identification of God with creation in such a way that the two are indistinguishable. Panentheism means that God is present in all creation by virtue of his omnipresence and omnipotence, sustaining every creature in being without being identified with any creature."

[Daniel]

Another quote lacking a citation.  @old3bob is referring to CHRISTIAN Panentheism.

 

It is from the wikipedia artictle under the subhheading Catholic Panentheism. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism#Catholic_panentheism

 

Here's the entire quote.  It's important to put this in its CHRISTIAN context, because Panentheism asserts God as beyond containment.  But this contradicts with CHRISTIANITY so they change the definition.  It's easy to see that Bob stopped copying the quote immediately before the Christian context would have been obvious.

 

What bob brought is not ACTUALLY Panentheism, because God is considered to reside IN the indivdiuals.  And of course people love-love this idea that they are possessing God.  That CANNOT happen in panentheism.

 

 

Here is the actual defintion which naturally does not fit within a Christian context.  It's the very first sentence of the article, but Bob skipped over it.

 

Panentheism ("all in God", from the Greek πᾶν, pân, 'all', ἐν, en, 'in' and Θεός, Theós, 'God')[1] is the belief that the divine intersects every part of the universe and also extends beyond space and time.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Daniel

[silent thunder]

[thelerner]

After dealing with our concept of God, is the next step asking 'What is God good for?'

 

One of my favorite old timey rabbis, Nachman of Breslov said God was good for talking to.  Beyond the prescribed prayers we need to get into a personal relation with God.  We do that by talking to him daily, in our language, pouring our heart as well as what we'd talk to a friend, family or lover about.  This is a bit of a dear diary God.  

 

This supposes a God who not a genii but is listening and in its way, caring.  And if we listen back, we might pick up some wisdom.  In Judaism there's a concept that the traditional Hebrew prayers are poorly translated into English.  That they come off as too kiss-ass and buttering up the diety, whereas in Hebrew when done properly they are more mystical, focusing the person on the aspects of God to better feel the transcendance within prayer.  

 

That's what's drew me to Abulafiah's Kabbalah or its modern translation in Ecstatic Kabbalah.  Looking for experiential knowledge through sacred sounds and prayers.  His take on the vowels is very close to what I've seen in Japanese Shinto.  Likewise in Christian sacred chanting.  My shower practice is chanting Rawn Clarks YHVH canticle practice.  Inspired by Franz Bardon's Hermetics but close to Abulafiah's system, it runs pretty deep.    

 

 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

My shower practice is chanting Rawn Clarks YHVH canticle practice. 

 

Your shower sounds amazing... literally.  Sounds.  Amazing.  From the chanting.

 

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Abulafiah's Kabbalah or its modern translation in Ecstatic Kabbalah

 

It's interesting that you would call it ecstatic.  Breslov?  Definitely escstatic; that is Chagas Chassidus. 

 

ChaGaS.  Chesed-Gevurah-Tiferes.  That's heart, passion.

 

Abulafia is Ohr HaSechel, The Light of The Intellect.  His perspective comes from probing Ramba's writing (Maimonides) thinking there is esoteric content woven and encoded in it that is perhaps not even apparent to Rambam while it was being written.  Rambam is the quintessential rationalist.  Not emotive in the least.  Rambam discourages all of that.  I haven't read a lot of Abulafia's writing, but, my recollection is the goal for Abulafia is to align the human intellect with the divine intellect for the purpose of having a sort of prophetic experience.

 

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Looking for experiential knowledge through sacred sounds and prayers.  His take on the vowels is very close to what I've seen in Japanese Shinto.

 

Interesting.  Yes, I recall learning about the vocalization of the consonants and the oration of the vowels.  It's been a while, I don't have Abulafia's system memorized, but it's remarkable how well the meaning of the pronouciation derives the meaning of the words.

 

The vowels are the "soul" of the word.  The consonants are the body. 

 

Vocalization occurs from the 5 vocal "instruments" in the body: ( bottom to top ) diaphram, palette, jaw, tongue, and lips.  The root of all ritual, it's foundational principle, in this context is "as it is below, so it is above."  This is repeated so-so many times in Zohar.  These 5 vocal "instruments" "below" are reflected "above" in the heavens.  Technically they are like God's left hand.  And so, every song or chant is a ritual that is considered to have real impact in the heavens.  It's like shaking a chain here in the material world, which in turn is shaking the other end of the chain ( shaking God's left hand ) which stretches all the way back up the chain to God itself. 

 

Song and chant is no different than any other ritual at it's most basic level.  Lighting candles, offering bread and wine?  It's shaking the chain below, which creates a domino effect in the heavens.  It's the same with singing and chanting.  And for the Breslov Chassadim... Dancing.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Daniel

[Jadespear]

Hey guys - it's actually way more simple than I thought... I think? 🤔 

 

Yin Yang - is duality; of being and non-being.  Things come into existence from a state of non-being - Black swirl with white dot.  Things go out of existence into non-being; white swirl with black dot.  Hence: the way of nature described in complete and total simplicity.  Te two are separated by a swirl and are completely distinct from one another because they literally are non - being and being.  The way of all changes.  It is also the nature of reality: subject and object from perception:  thing comes into existence only if they are perceived, without perception - they don't exist.  - they return back to nowhere - to non-being (The Uncreated - state of boundless, formless, and undiscriminating potential) : The Tao.  Quantum mechanics has proven this to be true: the true nature of all phenomena is based on duality - The forms we see are simply in a refined state of being based on ourselves perceiving ourselves... hence the many fables of taoists transforming into nothingness.  The space that we inhabit as ourselves is simply that - space.  Space able to be formed, form, or returned back to formlessness.  Particle to waves; waves to particles... the yin yang symbol.  

 

All of physical reality in the natural world is simply light confined by darkness - truth veiled by illusion - yang hidden by yin.  For without darkness, light could not shine.  Without light no appearances could manifest anywhere.  All of the physical world is simply a broadcast of light onto darkness.  We appear to be here, things appear to be there, and we are for the most part... but the duality of the real nature of existence was known by the ancients.  When you look at something you define it by your intention, by your perception - you cast light onto a wave, which orders it into particles that makes appearances ( the entire phenomenal world). And since we are all part of the one great infinite light - we are all watched; we are all perceived by it - hence we have form and function.  For we live within the heart and mind of the Great Tao itself, we live in a world of deceptive appearances (Maya) in the sense that what we see is actually permanent and real, but nothing else that is physical, it is all an appearance only.  By the virtues endowed to us by our creator we possess the same ability to assimilate matter with our minds, and our souls are the engine that drive.

[Jadespear]

And one more thing:

 

The Yin Yang:

 

If you can picture it 3 dimensionally it's easier - imagine that the dots are like rods or cylinders that extend backward and forward.  The white dot is the positive pole, the yang - electricity, heat expansion, etc. The black dot is the negative pole - the yin.  they exist in complete and total balance and harmony to one another and create all the changes everywhere in the entire universe - its a symbol of the universal principle of the "electromagnetic fluid".  The two forces that create, sustain, and guide all life everywhere.  Electricity must be contained by magnetism because if it is not - it has no ability to remain stable, same thing for magnetism.  It represents the total balance of all of the forces of nature at their essential relationship to one another.  

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

But  ........   " illogical "   .

[Daniel]

9 hours ago, Jadespear said:

All of physical reality in the natural world is simply light confined by darkness - truth veiled by illusion

 

The "veil" metaphor is a good one.  But I think the illusion needs to be examined.  The veil is drapping over the truth, like a garment.  The outlines of the truth are there, present, proximal.  The veil is taking the shape of what is concealed within it.  But taking it one step further, the veil is fluid.  Reality is like an endless sea.  It's like water in all directions.  The veil is being poured over the truth and it is coating it in such that it appears there is no difference and distinction between outer shell and the inner essence.  That's the illusion.  

 

The illusion is there is only the shell and no inner essence.  OR.  There is only inner essence and no shell.  Both are false perceptions.  Once this illusion is realized, then, one can examine the illusion and accurately observe some of what is being concealed by it.  The accuracy of these observations comes from accurately realizing what the illusion is, and how it works.

 

Your qualification of "physical reality" is excellent.  Once the illusion is accurately understood, there are many non-physical worlds to explore, and a lot more can be learned that is not captured and contained in the here-and-now. 

 

The problem is, these illusions are everywhere.  You are correct, they surround everything.  The human mind naturally skips over these illusions in order to function.  Breaking down that natural and very useful automatic filtering in the mind produces a lot of problems if one is not very careful.  They will not be able to distinguish between the inner subjective experience and outer objective phenomena.  It's already a challenge to do so.  Erasing the filter which skips over the illusion, often makes it worse.  

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Daniel

[Sahaja]

It seems to me that we often mistakenly conflate our attempts at understanding the mystery of life/concept of God on a human scale using human terms so we can relate to it, with the actual components and underlying characteristics of that mystery.  Religions and our concepts of God/life’s mystery generally evolved in eras where the reality of vast times  and space with no human presence was not known or accepted intellectually. Based on what they understood, believed or wanted to believe,  or what they thought best met their personal needs their best answers to this great mystery was to make God(s) in man’s image visually or behaviorally and/or to place man in the center of the universe between heaven and earth. Even systems without an apparent God set up complicated theories (e.g.the great merit tracking scoreboard in the sky, etc) that imply man’s centrality to the bigger scheme of things. Seems to me this echo continues until this day even in the alternative scene irrespective of the evolution of our knowledge about our relative place in the physical universe.

This may sound like I believe there is no God/no gods/no mystery, but actually I think it’s man’s stories about them that I take with a  “grain of salt” (some need a pound of salt!) as I continue to see in their stated or unstated assumptions  humans/human culture being placed in the center regardless of our many inherent cognitive and behavioral limitations and our relatively  small place in the underlying vast scale of time and space.  While it’s totally understandable why we would use ourselves as the yardstick to measure this mystery, it reminds me of the old joke of the man who lost his watch in the street at night but looked for it in the grass in the park because the light was better there. Perhaps it’s as simple as learning to feel and to listen for glimpses of the truth of that mystery in the darkness rather than solely relying on our vision to see it and relying on what we think we see as the absolute definition of that mystery.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Sahaja said:

relying on what we think we see as the absolute definition of that mystery.

 

if what is seen is a reflection, and the reflection is known to be imperfect, and those imperfections are consistent, and understood... then one can trust what is seen, IF, big IF, it is interpretted through a perspective which is taking into account the flaws inherent in the reflection.  Then an accurate understanding can be produced.  With practice.

 

The problem I have observed is, just like looking into any mirror, the focus of attention of the human mind is automatically drawn to the human form and face that is staring back at them.  And since it is their own form and face, there is a tendancy for self-love and self-idolization there.  Also, the human mind auto-corrects the image even though it is flip-flopped. 

 

In a similar manner, if a person can release themself, train themself, to avoid fixating on the "Self" which is looking back at them.  Avoid it.  And realize that the mirror is being flip-flopped, among other things... Then I think it makes sense to trust what is "seen".  To a degree.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Daniel

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

And for the Breslov Chassadim... Dancing.

 

 

Sad to see, now.  But a new day will come, I have faith.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The problem is, these illusions are everywhere.  You are correct, they surround everything.  The human mind naturally skips over these illusions in order to function.  Breaking down that natural and very useful automatic filtering in the mind produces a lot of problems if one is not very careful.  They will not be able to distinguish between the inner subjective experience and outer objective phenomena.  It's already a challenge to do so.  Erasing the filter which skips over the illusion, often makes it worse.  

 

From my latest write--bear with me:

 

“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases.  When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.
 

In another lecture, Suzuki described the experience:
 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.
 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki was expanding on the last line of a famous poem by the 6th century Buddhist Fuxi:
 

Water does not flow, but the bridge flows.
 

(ibid; Suzuki credits Dogen)

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.
 

Nevertheless, Suzuki advised his students:
 

Let the water flow, as that is the water’s practice. Let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge.
 

(ibid)

 

The twelfth-century Chinese teacher Foyan similarly expressed a caution to his students:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.
 

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!
 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4)

 

Having experienced the placement of attention as the source of activity (“riding on the donkey”), the tendency is to want the activity of the body to come solely from the placement of attention all the time (“to be unwilling to dismount”).  Foyan asserted that activity from the location of attention is inherent in human nature, and the unwillingness to relinquish such activity is not healthy.
 

Gautama did not express a caution with regard to the fourth concentration.  Instead, he recommended a way of living that incorporated the experience, a way of living he called “the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing” (SN V 316 & 326):
 

… if cultivated and made much of, (the “intent concentration”) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.
 

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society V p 285)

 

The “intent concentration” consisted of sixteen thoughts, each applied or sustained in an inhalation or exhalation.
 

Applying and sustaining thought would appear to be a preparatory practice, but in Gautama’s “intent concentration”, the thought comes out of necessity in the free placement of attention in the movement of breath. The free placement of attention only occurs with clarity in the fourth concentration, but as Foyan pointed out, such freedom is inherent in human nature.

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

That's what I thought of, when i read your statement:  "Breaking down that natural and very useful automatic filtering in the mind produces a lot of problems if one is not very careful."

"Once this illusion is realized, then, one can examine the illusion and accurately observe some of what is being concealed by it.  The accuracy of these observations comes from accurately realizing what the illusion is, and how it works."--what you are referring to as the veil, the illusion, I would say is the misapprehension that the body (and even,  this world) is anything but a vehicle for free consciousness.
 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Daniel]

23 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Sad to see, now.  But a new day will come, I have faith.

 

Now is just a snap shot in time.  I have faith too, and thank you.

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I would say is the misapprehension that the body (and even,  this world) is anything but a vehicle for free consciousness.

 

I do not see the body of the rock or the body of the cloud as a vehicle of free consciousness.

[NaturaNaturans]

I see quite a lot of you are jewish, witch is ofc perf fine… but it is allowed to bring politics in? If youd forgive me, i cant help but sympathize with the palestinians, considering their treatment and oppression, and i am also worried that the actions of Netanyahus goverment might lead to an enourmos rise in anti-semittism, and that the geo-politics of the situation might bring all Israelis with them to the abyss. Sadly, i am worried it is to late allready. 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I do not see the body of the rock or the body of the cloud as a vehicle of free consciousness.
 

I'm not familiar with either of these terms, "Body of the rock" or "body of the cloud"--whaddya got for me?

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

but it is allowed to bring politics in?

 

I'm not going to comment on politics.  All I will say is I am deeply and profoundly troubled by the situation.  And I've been troubled about it for a very long time.

 

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Netanyahus goverment might lead to an enourmos rise in anti-semittism

 

Thank you for the concern.  Your thoughts and wishes mean a lot.

 

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

and that the geo-politics of the situation might bring all Israelis with them to the abyss.

 

I would not worry about this.

 

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Sadly, i am worried it is to late allready. 

 

What ever happens, it's going to be OK.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm not familiar with either of these terms, "Body of the rock" or "body of the cloud"--whaddya got for me?

 

Everything that exists in the material world can be described in terms of body and soul with only one exception.  The body of a rock is the outer dimension, the soul of the rock is its inner essence.  The body of a cloud is its outer dimension, the soul of a cloud is its inner essence.

 

The outer dimension of a rock and a cloud, I would expect, are easy to conceptualize.  Perhaps it's the soul that gets tricky?

 

Do you remember the exchange I had with one of the buddhists, "C T" in the "Enlightenment" thread about the hammer?  In that dialogue I described some aspects of the soul of a hammer.  The body of a hammer, hopefully is not a problem to conceptualize.

 

Buddhism denies the soul, right?  If so, that will likely be an obstacle in discussing this too deeply.  You would probably need to temporarily set aside buddhism in order to appreciate my point of view.

[zerostao]

MOD NOTICE

Political posts are to be posted in the CURRENT EVENTS section only.

A member will have to ask for access to Current Events section; to post or view threads there.

If you’re thinking of asking for access; think twice. I advise against it. This forum nearly ceased to be due to political discussions in the open forums. Members left and many have not returned. 

My two cents; merely my opinion, is whatever god is, it’s neither a religion or a politician.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by zerostao

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

My two cents; merely my opinion, is whatever god is, it’s neither a religion or a politician.

 

I've thought/hoped that the best way to God was through silence.  

Often the opposite of a great truth is another great truth. So maybe there are paths in awe and exuberance.

 

 

 

 

  

[NaturaNaturans]

14 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I've thought/hoped that the best way to God was through silence.  

Often the opposite of a great truth is another great truth. So maybe there are paths in awe and exuberance.

  

What does silence mean to you? Feels strange to say, but the concept is somewhat foreign to me. Same goes with «nothingness» and «emptiness.»

 

That said, i do belive wisdom is more about «forgetting» the programming and returning to the source, in lack of a better word

[thelerner]

11 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

What does silence mean to you? Feels strange to say, but the concept is somewhat foreign to me. Same goes with «nothingness» and «emptiness.»

 

That said, i do belive wisdom is more about «forgetting» the programming and returning to the source, in lack of a better word

There's loud thoughts.  So loud I can't hear well, they're a voice or print in bold.  As I write that LOUD voice dominates.  There are waves of perception, echoing from emotional states.  There are waves of perception from what I see, hear and body sensations/itches.  Underlying worries and fantasies brought on by myriad triggers.  Storylines, my mind seems constantly looking for prompts to build storylines from.  Little dramas to pass the time

 

Silence means the loud voice is gone, the others thoughts-judgements notices storylines quiet.  Body sensations ignored.  In meditation it takes ten or twenty to reach a state of it, can get deeper the longer I go.  Likewise walking when I can turn off the thoughts and let my mind reflect the visuals and sounds without getting attached.  

[old3bob]

mind is taken as identity via "my mind" but...

[NaturaNaturans]

16 minutes ago, old3bob said:

mind is taken as identity via "my mind" but...

…but?