Use cannabis to build Chi

[roamthevoid]

When I take cannabis and do Dan Tian meditation, I can feel a large area of fluid energy bobbing around in my body. It’s hard to control but if I try hard I can control it and compress it into a much smaller area into the Dan Tian. 
 

But I was afraid if I held it in its compressed state it could overpower my meridians and explode therefore cause damage, so I quickly relinquished control of it. 
 

Side topic - my body was also shaking and it felt like I was in 2nd Jhana (strong Piti (rapture) and Sukha (bliss)) but if I tune my mind I could drop the Piti and (seemingly) enter 3rd Jhana (without Piti but Sukha remains). 
 

I seemed to also be able to enter the 4th Jhana (Sukha dropped, equanimity is developed) by further refining my mental state but tbh I’m afraid of 4th Jhana because I don’t want to alter reality or my life by accident. (You can change reality in 4th Jhana) 
 

(Could totally be my delusion on the Jhana part, granted) 

 

So my question is, has anyone heard of, or even had experience of, using cannabis to build Dan Tian container or gather Chi to Dan Tian? 
 

 

[Daniel]

I vote 'no' on using intoxicants during cultivation.  If it can't be done without chemical assitance, I think something's wrong.

[roamthevoid]

6 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I vote 'no' on using intoxicants during cultivation.  If it can't be done without chemical assitance, I think something's wrong.

I never said it can’t be done. But if using herbal assistance can greatly shorten the time it takes, I think the path would be worth considering. 

[Gerard]

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Edited September 29, 2023 by Gerard

[Gerard]

A better wisdom product from ancient China:

 

https://yunnansourcing.com/en-au/products/2022-yunnan-sourcing-bang-wai-mountain-raw-pu-erh-tea-cake?variant=42564241948871

 

Your Wood element/force will love it. 

 

Lots of good Qi.

[silent thunder]

@roamthevoid  It's your path in this life.  Only you can walk it.

 

In my experience, there's one source from which all arises and to which, all returns.   Due too this, I tend toward a fearlessness in exploration of consciousness and energetic exchange.

 

The use of elixirs, pills and a wide variety of intense and sometimes deadly substances is well documented in myriad sects of classical and modern daoism and many other traditions.  The list is nigh on endless.  Entheogenic use is foundational in shamanic processes across all traditions among the origins of our kind for a reason.  So I don't put much stock in the fundamentalist conservative bend of recent times and the over simplification in villifying all plants (or coffee, chocolate and rice).  We have cannibanoid receptors in our brains, this is a fact.  Myriad substances affect and have effect on our awareness.  Nature does not waste anything.  We are in constant relationship with our environment.

 

Yet this does not imply all things are beneficial at all stages in our process.  Only you'll be able to distinguish the effects on your mind and body, but you can benefit greatly from a teacher in an established lineage with a history of prior exploration. 

 

Stranger's opinions on the internet carry no value with me and rigid 'one way' thinking is always an enormous red flag.   Folks who claim one way with absolute certainty are usually selling something, even if it's not monetary but in propping up their authority ego.

 

Far more important to me than the effect of cannabis on my meditations would be access to a lineage and a teacher in whom I could trust.

 

If it were me and I didn't have an in person teacher or much experience, I'd not put much stock in the opinions of folks who habituate online forums (yea this includes me)... I'd keep things very simple and direct my energy toward finding a teacher and then let the questions flow.  In the absence of a teacher, explore as you can and reject whatever does not bring benefit.

 

At the origin of every established lineage, was a human being, exploring his or her own consciousness.  This is our primary birthright and no one can tell you with impunity what can work for you.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, roamthevoid said:

When I take cannabis and do Dan Tian meditation, I can feel a large area of fluid energy bobbing around in my body. It’s hard to control but if I try hard I can control it and compress it into a much smaller area into the Dan Tian. 
 

But I was afraid if I held it in its compressed state it could overpower my meridians and explode therefore cause damage, so I quickly relinquished control of it. 
 

Side topic - my body was also shaking and it felt like I was in 2nd Jhana (strong Piti (rapture) and Sukha (bliss)) but if I tune my mind I could drop the Piti and (seemingly) enter 3rd Jhana (without Piti but Sukha remains). 
 

I seemed to also be able to enter the 4th Jhana (Sukha dropped, equanimity is developed) by further refining my mental state but tbh I’m afraid of 4th Jhana because I don’t want to alter reality or my life by accident. (You can change reality in 4th Jhana) 
 

(Could totally be my delusion on the Jhana part, granted) 

 

So my question is, has anyone heard of, or even had experience of, using cannabis to build Dan Tian container or gather Chi to Dan Tian? 

 

The use of psychotropic herbs has a long tradition in shamanic cultures (in the broad sense), and this includes cannabis. The latter was particularly popular with Daoist cultivators, amongst others. I don't agree with the opinion that categorically denies their utility on a spiritual journey--well-intended as it may be.

 

As you have found, cannabis can  activate and intensify your chi flow. It can therefore serve as an agent in an internal alchemical process. However, it's important to remember that, in alchemy, every 'solve' should be balanced by a 'coagula.' Adequate phases of grounding, thereby integrating the increased energy flow, should not be neglected.

 

The trouble with cannabis and other psychoactive substances is that they tend to be addictive. In many cases, their use becomes a habit with a life of its own--rather than a ritual done with awareness and a clear sense of purpose.

 

In this case, you may find that the herb depletes your energy, while its initial positive effects are felt less. Over time, this can entail various undesirable effects, both physically and psychologically. The negative impact on your energy system can become chronic and difficult to fix--I have seen and felt it so many times in members of a particular subculture. 

 

And BTW, it's not just the herb that can potentially be hazardous, but also the tobacco that it is often mixed with for application.

 

So to summarise: if you choose to use cannabis in one of its forms for cultivation purposes, do so with unwavering awareness! Make sure you stay in charge of that powerful spirit you summoned; don't let it gradually take you over and control your mind and actions.

 

I will add that consciously working with your subtle energy system (as mentioned in your OP) is a good way to go. Although it can come with its specific challenges, especially when flow is intensified but yet impeded in certain areas. Try and work out the issues. Avoid both fear and haste. Use the power of visualization and emphasize mental clarity. 

 

Good luck on your way! 🙂

 

Michael 

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, roamthevoid said:

I never said it can’t be done. But if using herbal assistance can greatly shorten the time it takes, I think the path would be worth considering. 

 

I'm also not a fan of taking short cuts.

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, silent thunder said:

We have cannibanoid receptors in our brains, this is a fact.  Myriad substances affect and have effect on our awareness.

 

Arsenic is a naturally occuring substance.  People can get high from oxygen deprivation, that's not healthy either.

 

But, there's nothing "wrong" with intoxicants, all I'm saying is, the fact that they are natural is not a good basis for judgment of healthy/harmful.

 

Some people simply want to get high or stoned, and are looking for ways to justify this desire.  It's not needed.  In fact I think deluding oneself regarding this desire is harmful.  I think people should be honest with themself.  If they like the feeling of being high or stoned while they practice Taiji, fine.  It has nothing to do with cultivation, then.  It's recreational.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I don't agree with the opinion that categorically denies their utility on a spiritual journey--well-intended as it may be.

 

For the record, I didn't say that.  I was talking about cultivating chi in the DanTien per the question asked.

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

it's not just the herb that can potentially be hazardous, but also the tobacco that it is often mixed with for application.

 

Just FYI, this is very-very rare in America.  Most people vape now.  Some people are still smoking "flower", but it is almost never mixed with tobacco.  Vaping is cheap, much easier to be discrete, and is considered safe, and it's true that it's a lot better in regard to particulates in the lungs.  However, it is always missing the full compliment of psychoactive compounds.  The manufacture strips out everything but the THC.  Terpenes may be added back, but they're for flavor.  The other naturally occuring compounds are considered waste.  The plant as it has evolved naturally is not in any way being consumed.  It is being commercially processed and then marketed.

 

And then there's a whole discussion that can be had about the strains which are being cultivated.  They're factory farmed.  Dialed in for maximum THC output because that's what sells. The naturally occuring hybrid is a thing of the past.  It's either Sativa or Indica, usually because that's what the consumers want and they're easier to market.

 

This is a different world, far away from the yellow river.  This is not LaoTzu's weed.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

18 hours ago, roamthevoid said:

......... But if using herbal assistance can greatly shorten the time it takes, I think the path would be worth considering. 

Where did you get that idea? You can get that idea from Chinese fiction stories from the Kung Fu movies. All cultivation should be done without any external influence. Especially not with toxic substances. FYI All the gathering or storing chi to the dan tien is only a myth. Using substances is harmful to your body. Period. It will not help you in your meditation practice at all. Please don't even think about it or do it anymore. Peace!

Edited September 29, 2023 by ChiDragon

[johndoe2012]

I think the increased chi flow is due to the relaxing effect of cbd on the body and increased unstickiness of thoughts. 

There is the tendency to see the siliness of the seriousness of thoughts due to the thc content I think. 

I haven't used it to increase chi flow but to relax due to stress and anxiety. 

[Vajra Fist]

Part of the reason why the five precepts say 'no intoxicants' is because it dulls the mind.

 

The purpose of practicing shamatha and jhana is for the mind to become sharp and clear. So we can see defilments clearly as they arise. Shamatha is only a tool for insight into the mind, you're sharpening the machete to cut through the bush.

 

Even without intoxicants, its easy for the mind to become blissed out and lose its focus. We focus on our joyful sensations and lose our object of meditation, I.e. the breath.

 

In Chinese and Japanese Zen this is called 'dwelling in the ghost cave on the dark side of the mountain'. It's a state that's easy to fall into but hard to get out of. 

 

I'm not selling anything(!). Just a fair warning.

[Mandrake]

J*sus Christ.

[Taoist Texts]

55 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

So we can see defilments clearly

what you see is what you get, they say

56 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

In Chinese and Japanese Zen this is called 'dwelling in the ghost cave on the dark side of the mountain'

that phrase is by one great Zen master  ridiculing another great Zen master. So...that ghost cave maybe not a such bad place after all

ghost cave

 

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

I think the increased chi flow is due to the relaxing effect of cbd on the body and increased unstickiness of thoughts. 

There is the tendency to see the siliness of the seriousness of thoughts due to the thc content I think. 

I haven't used it to increase chi flow but to relax due to stress and anxiety. 

 

OK.  There's other side effects to be aware of.  False perceptions / sensations, and increased suggestability.  It's a departure from reality.  There's nothing wrong with that.  People do that all the time:  watching movies, reading books, listening to music, going to see stand-up comedy.   And the suggestibility is just another way of saying "opening the mind to what is unlikely or unexpected."   But mixing this departure from reality with daoist cultivation is not a good combo in my opinion.  I'm not sure how cultivation would occur with one's head in the clouds.   At best it's unpredictable, at worst harmful.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

In Chinese and Japanese Zen this is called 'dwelling in the ghost cave on the dark side of the mountain'. It's a state that's easy to fall into but hard to get out of. 

 

I would very much appreciate reading more about this.  Is there anything available online? 

[johndoe2012]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

OK.  There's other side effects to be aware of.  False perceptions / sensations, and increased suggestability.  It's a departure from reality.  There's nothing wrong with that.  People do that all the time:  watching movies, reading books, listening to music, going to see stand-up comedy.   And the suggestibility is just another way of saying "opening the mind to what is unlikely or unexpected."   But mixing this departure from reality with daoist cultivation is not a good combo in my opinion.  I'm not sure how cultivation would occur with one's head in the clouds.   At best it's unpredictable, at worst harmful.

 

What you call reality is wrong perception if it is dual. 

 

I used cbd once to see thoughts just as symbols and not really anything concrete. 

 

So it was more clear and relaxed than normal 'reality' whatever that was. 

 

Thc gives that high feeling like alcohol and I don't like the feeling. 

 

I went without alcohol for many months and my brain learned to produce its own feeling of 'this is funny' to avoid the seriousness that kills the joy in people. 

[Daniel]

38 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

What you call reality is wrong perception if it is dual. 

 

My friend, if there is a "wrong" perception that gaurantees that reality is dual.  Let's not debate this OK?

 

Quote

I used cbd once to see thoughts just as symbols and not really anything concrete. 

 

That would have been A LOT of cbd to produce that sort of reaction.  Are you sure it was only cbd?  

 

Quote

So it was more clear and relaxed than normal 'reality' whatever that was. 

 

That sort of perception is not clear, it's simple.  The details are being washed-out.  Flattened.

 

Nothing wrong with that....  until there is.    Daoist cultivation involving directing chi here-and-there requires clarity, and accurate sensory feedback.  Misdirecting the chi is known to be harmful.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7858248/

 

CBD enhanced fronto-striatal connectivity and decreased limbic activity during resting state, and modulated brain activity showing task-specific patterns during different cognitive paradigms. For example, CBD increased activation relative to placebo in the parahippocampus during auditory processing, and reduced activation in this region during the processing of fearful faces. In addition, CBD decreased connectivity between fronto-limbic regions (i.e., anterior cingulate cortex and amygdala) during the processing of fearful faces and enhanced fronto-limbic-striatal connectivity (i.e., inferior frontal gyrus, dorsal striatum and posterior hippocampus) during salience processing.

 

What does this mean?  They're both good things, generally.  It's why CBD is considered theraputic.  But, that theraputic effect is decreased sensitivity.  Which is not ideal for cultivation.  The enhanced frontal-straital connectivity produces a false positive, making the practioner feel they are progressing when they are not.  It's the same chemical response that occurs in long-time tai-chi practioners, but this is temporary and artificial because it's coming from the substance not the practice. 

 

Let me say that again.

 

It's coming from the substance, not the practice.

 

The decreased limbic activity is also "dulling the senses".  A person feels they don't have physical or emotional "needs".  It's not difficult to imagine how this can bring relief of anxiety and PTSD.  But, this can also be described as "detachment", which is an "attainment" in meditative practice associated with progress.  Again, a false positive is produced.  The practioner thinks they have acheived something, and maybe they have. But if it is temporary, then it is a false positive.  It's coming from the substance, not the practice.

 

That's why I said at the beginning of the thread:  "If it can't be done without chemical assitance, I think something's wrong."

 

I think the challenge is distinguishing between "dulling the senses" and "clarity".  Maybe dulling the senses helps produce a version of clarity?  Maybe.  For practice that does not involve moving chi, transmutation of subtle essence, maybe there is less risk?  I don't know.  But if the clarity requires dulling the senses, I think something is wrong. 

[johndoe2012]

The problem is you think you can diagnose things online. 

 

It was one drop of cbd 10 %, so very little dosage. 

 

It gave that effect because I am very sensitive due to years of training. 

 

And no, you don't want increased sensitivity when you are already sensing too much. You want to calm down the system not increase the load on the senses. 

[Vajra Fist]

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Edited September 30, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[silent thunder]

@roamthevoid

Here comes that bias and fundamentalism I was telling you about...

The site is rife with it.

 

C'est la vie

[steve]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:49 PM, roamthevoid said:

When I take cannabis and do Dan Tian meditation, I can feel a large area of fluid energy bobbing around in my body. It’s hard to control but if I try hard I can control it and compress it into a much smaller area into the Dan Tian. 
 

But I was afraid if I held it in its compressed state it could overpower my meridians and explode therefore cause damage, so I quickly relinquished control of it. 
 

Side topic - my body was also shaking and it felt like I was in 2nd Jhana (strong Piti (rapture) and Sukha (bliss)) but if I tune my mind I could drop the Piti and (seemingly) enter 3rd Jhana (without Piti but Sukha remains). 
 

I seemed to also be able to enter the 4th Jhana (Sukha dropped, equanimity is developed) by further refining my mental state but tbh I’m afraid of 4th Jhana because I don’t want to alter reality or my life by accident. (You can change reality in 4th Jhana) 
 

(Could totally be my delusion on the Jhana part, granted) 

 

So my question is, has anyone heard of, or even had experience of, using cannabis to build Dan Tian container or gather Chi to Dan Tian? 
 

 

 

In my experience cannabis can be a support in some ways to finding deeper connections between things that may be hidden, to connect with repressed or suppressed emotional energy, to heighten physical sensation and experience in physical activities like zhan zhuang, taiji, qigong, running, and so forth. These are nothing more than my experiences, ymmv. On the other hand I also think she is a bit of a trickster. Sometimes those connections and experiences are exaggerated or misleading and only have significance due to the altered perception. She can also be very controlling for some, be aware of the possibility of psychological dependence.

 

When it comes to specific methods, like Qi cultivation or tummo for example, there is a lot of specificity. and precision in the methodology so I would caution that the altered perception and processing can potentially be an obstacle or cause deviation. You may think you have made some major progress only to later find it was not as significant as you thought at the time. I agree with those who feel that each of us has to tread our own path and must explore different things along the way as we all need different things at different times and no one, including good teachers, have all the answers. On the other hand, when engaging in well defined, traditional paradigms, deviation from the time tested and proven formula is more likely to result in deviation when it comes to the outcome. If you are blazing your own trail through trial and error, mixing of paradigms, learning through books and videos, and so on then I don't think it is as much of an issue.

 

Best wishes on your path.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

The problem is you think you can diagnose things online. 

 

I'm not diagnosing anything.  Please reread my posts.  No signs, no symptoms = no diagnosis.

 

 

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

It was one drop of cbd 10 %, so very little dosage. 

 

This is what I said:  "Are you sure it was only cbd?"

 

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

It gave that effect because I am very sensitive due to years of training. 

 

Sounds like it was not only cbd.  It is something else.

 

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

And no, you don't want increased sensitivity when you are already sensing too much. You want to calm down the system not increase the load on the senses. 

 

For clarity, "dulling the senses" is a mistake.  For sensory overload, perhaps anathestic, perhaps a tranquilizer, cbd probably fits these as an herbal rememdy.

 

This is not a diagnosis.  It's friendly advice in the form a perscription.  If I were to diagnose, I would be saying something else.