when should long time

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, Unota said:

… But, I do like to occasionally briefly interact, because I like all of you. Is this odd?

I don’t think so.  
 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Cobie

[old3bob]

.

Edited October 20, 2023 by old3bob

[wstein]

20 hours ago, Gerard said:

The 'worst' are the ones that disappear after posting here for years. If you are really accomplished you never give up on guiding others and caring about them unless of course their motivations are purely to satisfy their egos; so I personally ignore them.

It's not my job, I am under no obligation to guide others. Being "really accomplished" does not change that.

I know many teachers get caught up in endlessly guiding others. It's something few get past.

I post when I am called to do so, because I want to.

[old3bob]

if we don't help someone, no one is going to help us....karma

[Apech]

16 hours ago, steve said:

 

Hi Bob,

The icon was because I thought you were joking. Does the word nipple offend you? Or the idea that one might accidentally brush up against one? I’ve been on both sides of that experience. 

 

I chose that word for a reason.  Nipples, like people, can be very sensitive, shoulders not so much. Stepping on a toe causes pain but brushing a nipple can be titillating or offensive, depending on context and intent - just like our words here.

 

I think it’s an apt metaphor and will let it stand. My apologies if it makes you uncomfortable, that was actually part of my intention - not to offend you personally but to demonstrate how words can be powerful and contextual.

 

 

 

 

Dear Lurkers,

 

Never post.  Just never.  Or you will be drawn into Nipplegate and other sagas.  Stay silent.  Lurk.  The Doabums is a dangerous place full of traps and snares.

 

You have been warned.

 

Don't.

 

Just say no.

 

Be silent.

 

Be safe.

 

 

 

[steve]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

are you talking about in a medical environment?

 

No...

Fine art 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Cobie]

 

16 hours ago, wstein said:

… I post when I am called to do so, because I want to.

Good on you.  And imo you do not qualify for the moniker ‘lurker’, 110 posts is definitely chatty enough for me.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

I did dislike lurkers already anyway, but for me here’s another reason:

 

2 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I belong to a group of about 30 people, most of them lurk here. 

 

Several members of our group have been here on the forum since the time of Ron Jeremy circa 2004.

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cobie

[old3bob]

what in the world is the satisfaction of not interacting with people at the site after 19 years?

[Mark Foote]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:15 PM, Gerard said:

 

To avoid like the plague. Not even monastics dare to touch this highly personal and complex subject, what would you expect from a lay practitioner who spends more time in front of his keyboard than practicing for real. 
 

I resemble that remark! 

Seriously, I think you give monastics too much credit, and lay practitioners not enough, there.  But I would say that...

And now, a musical interlude:
 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Gerard]

On 20/9/2023 at 10:17 PM, blue eyed snake said:

 

"The worst"

Now that's quite a judgement. 

 

This is a forum, not a teaching environment.

 

I used the special character ' '. 

 

It is not but from the very moment someone states:

 

1. This particular form will move the Blood, disperse Heat & Stagnation and clear Dampness. But bear in mind that the process may take a long time depending on how long you had them for taking into account your age and lifestyle factors. 

 

2. Practising between midnight and past sunrise will be greatly beneficial to the Wood meridian network. 

 

You are teaching already! 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Gerard

[Gerard]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Seriously, I think you give monastics too much credit, and lay practitioners not enough,

 

Compare driving a Ferrari with a Hyundai. Obviously the driver matters too because if you are a poor one and crash your 800hp vehicle...

 

Lay practitioners rely too much on external sources of information; eg. books and other practitioners' experiences. This is a big problem.

 

About the enlightenment thing:

 

There are so many other factors so much more important to tackle and which require decades of practice to address that honestly focusing on chasing dragons will only lead to another massive block.

 

Calming the cravings of the mind is the major root of disease. Good luck with this one before you can even think of 'enlightenment.' 

 

Bringing internal chatter to an end is a huge obstacle. Good luck too. I was particularly checked in this one during the 3 week retreat I attended. Obviously it takes a lot more than 3 weeks and a single retreat.

 

Clearing Qi blockages

Removing Heat & Dampness even if you aren't aware of them

Connecting to the internal organs (physical aspect of the five forces)

Living according to your animal

Living according to the seasons

Living according to the yin & yang charges of the day/night

Living according to each animal year (current is Water Rabbit)

Eating one meal a day 

No sexual activity

Little to no sleep depending on how much you practice and how far down the track you are

 

Enlightenment? All of the above under one package.

[EFreethought]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Dear Lurkers,

 

Never post.  Just never.  Or you will be drawn into Nipplegate and other sagas.  Stay silent.  Lurk.  The Doabums is a dangerous place full of traps and snares.

 

You have been warned.

 

Don't.

 

Just say no.

 

Be silent.

 

Be safe.

 

If Nipplegate leads to more posts of nipples, then open the gates.

 

As the Chairman wrote: Let a thousand nipples bloom, let a million lurkers gape.

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Lay practitioners rely too much on external sources of information; eg. books and other practitioners' experiences. This is a big problem.

 

I took a class on left-brain/right-brain stuff from the local university extension, back in the '70's.  The instructor told of a study made on indigenous south-seas navigators, who could navigate between islands over the horizon on a cloudy night.  He said that when asked to explain how they did it, they offered gibberish (or what the scientists believed was gibberish).

I would say that people assume that because someone has some mastery, their explanation of mastery in general must be true.  

In other words, many masters of spiritual traditions don't rely enough on books and other practitioner's experience, when it comes to communication.  

Additionally, there can perhaps be some benefit for all of us, if the science in the Eastern traditions can be reconciled with the science in the West to whatever extent possible, and a cogent framework developed. 

And everybody has to start somewhere--how do you describe that?
 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness].
 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco, http://shunryusuzuki2.com/detail1?ID=281)

“You can catch the branch”:  you can lay hold of one-pointedness of mind, if you can remain conscious when “the bottom falls out of the bucket”. The bucket-bottom gives out all the time in falling asleep:
 

… Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). 

… when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.
 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)
 

As you mentioned there is something special about the early morning hours, the state of mind/body after a few hours of sleep that makes this practice very conducive to working.”

--humbleone, “The Dao Bums”, Feb. 2012

 

(from an upcoming post on my site)
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Gerard]

On 21/9/2023 at 11:21 AM, wstein said:

It's not my job, I am under no obligation to guide others.

 

It's entirely up to anyone. But helping others in this environment (internet forum) is good because it's a sangha. In real life you talk about this TOPIC to others even your lovely neighbour and let me assure you two things may happen:

 

1. You'll come across as a loonie, or 

2. This is voodoo talk with no scientific basis

 

On 21/9/2023 at 11:21 AM, wstein said:

 

Being "really accomplished" does not change that.

 

It does. You want to pass on your knowledge to others BUT it's entirely up to the student to enter the door as the teacher can only show it to you. 

 

On 21/9/2023 at 11:21 AM, wstein said:

I know many teachers get caught up in endlessly guiding others. It's something few get past.

 

 

Most are ego-driven, the quiet ones are generally not but they are very difficult to locate; usually it stems from a past life relationship. 

 

In the end you need to realise that the best teacher is YOU but as a beginning student, or someone who has been following the wrong practice for too long with negative effects, it's imperative to find the method that works for you best and for that a real life teacher is required. And there are also clueless teachers or those who want to make a quick earning by passing on rubbish/useless teachings or the cult type to feed their egos. So buyer beware. 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 20/09/2023 at 2:45 AM, liminal_luke said:

The word "lurk" sounds a bit sinister, as if people who choose to keep their opinions to themselves are climbing on ladders to peer into their neighbor's bedrooms.  But wait, isn't that ridiculous?  There's nothing wrong -- and often a lot right -- with staying quiet.  Lurkers of the World Unite.  You are bothering nobody.  Share when and if you feel inspired.

 

Down here, 'lurkers' dont go up ladders ... thats beyond lurking .  

 

A priest put in a complaint to the building superintendent next door,   " That man in your apartment 23 is immoral !  He walks around nude with the curtains open , you should put a stop to that in the name of common decency  !

 

The super replied  " I didnt think you would be able to see into apartment 23 from yours ?"

 

Priest :  " Well, no  .... but if you go half way down the fire escape .... " 

[Gerard]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

In other words, many masters of spiritual traditions don't rely enough on books and other practitioner's experience, when it comes to communication.  

 

Books?

 

Please refer to my answer in the Recommend Taoist Alchemy books (Daoist subforum).

 

Or as Thoreau put it into words:

 

I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Additionally, there can perhaps be some benefit for all of us, if the science in the Eastern traditions can be reconciled with the science in the West to whatever extent possible, and a cogent framework developed. 

 

Impossible. Quantum Mechanics is a good framework BUT it misses the whole of the Taoist scientific method. This can only be proven by inner work and TCM medical diagnosis in relation to understand un the causes of disease (yin-yang imbalance): pulse reading, tongue examination and see your overall physical complexion which is related to the birth date.

 

Also how can you prove using rationalist science:

 

Spirit gives rise to Form/Mind creates Reality

 

In other words between the ultimate You and this physical you there is an entire reality governed by unseen/subtle forces. 

 

We all are the entire Reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 20/09/2023 at 4:41 AM, old3bob said:

 

that is pretty true in the limited access current events forum but not imo on the general or other major forums... so it sounds like you are "gloriously" generalizing about me?   Btw, what's not to understand, my points are not vague or nebulous,  maybe what you really mean and apparently so is that we don't agree which is your right and fine.

 

... and here I was assuming it was about your 'style' , at times .  

[Nungali]

On 20/09/2023 at 6:46 AM, liminal_luke said:

Somebody should write a dystopian short story about lurking Bums who are forced at threat of banishment to post.  "But I don't know anything about non-dualism, your honor.  I'm only 13."

 

They could split off and make yet another new forum ..... where there are no posts at all  ... they can even  ban posters if they want  ! 

 

... actually, i am gonna send them a message ;

 

Hey !  All you lurkers out there  ... listen up !  So, you joined up only for special privileges walkins dont get  ?

 

Spoiler

 

 

I wonder if they know about the white font  ?

 

[Nungali]

On 20/09/2023 at 3:15 PM, Gerard said:

 

To avoid like the plague. Not even monastics dare to touch this highly personal and complex subject, what would you expect from a lay practitioner who spends more time in front of his keyboard than practicing for real. 

 

Gerald !   Where you been ????

 

I haven't heard from you in ages  ! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 21/09/2023 at 3:11 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

This is the natural evolution of internet conversation.  Start talking lurkers and soon you'll be discussing the ethics of (innocent?) nipple brushing at topless beaches.  Did it happen to you?  Me too.  Anywho, jump on in lurkers -- the water's warm.

 

 

Wow .  man .... now  I really dont know whats going on here . 

 

What the hell is that ?    My mind is going  ....  ' Its about when you lie face down and get sandy nipples and its the ethics of brushing it off     .... nah , maybe its about  , is it okay to brush the  sand off your friends nipples  ( like - Oh, you have sand on your nipples, allow me ... )     ... nah . Maybe its about inadvertently brushing against someone else's nipples ? , But why would you be so close ? Is it a very crowded Brazilian nude beach ?      or perhaps it is  some 'weird'  SM thing that goes on with a stiff brush    ...   ( I would not know about things like that ... I cant even imagine them ! )

 

( I cant find the 'confused' emoticon , so some of you  please click on it in the like box for me , thanks . )

[Nungali]

On 21/09/2023 at 5:13 AM, Cobie said:

 

I don’t think that’s “unskillful, superficial, even disrespectful”.  I skip loads, some posts are too long for me to read. 

 

 

I miss a lot of your posts  because  ...

 

I'm not quick enough .

[Nungali]

Do you want me to become a lurker yet,   old3bob ?

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

In other words between the ultimate You and this physical you there is an entire reality governed by unseen/subtle forces. 

 

I know I'm just shoveling in the gap, here.  Nevertheless.
 

The classic literature of Tai Chi appears to identify the ligaments of the body as a source of activity.  The literature describes three levels in the development of “ch’i”, a word that literally translates as “breath” but in practice is taken to refer to a fundamental energy of the body, and each of the three levels has three stages.
 

The stages of the first level are:
 

“… relaxing the ligaments from the shoulder to the wrist”; “from the hip joint to the heel”; “from the sacrum to the headtop”.
 

(“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78)

 

Unlike the contraction and relaxation of muscles, the stretch and resile of ligaments can’t be voluntarily controlled.  The muscles across the joints can, however, be relaxed in such a way as to allow the natural stretch and resile of ligaments–that would seem to be the meaning of the advice to “relax the ligaments”. 
 

The stages of the second level are:
 

“sinking ch’i to the tan t’ien” (a point below and behind the navel); “the ch’i reaches the arms and legs”; “the ch’i moves through the sacrum (wei lu) to the top of the head (ni wan)”.
 

(ibid)

 

Tai Ch’i master Cheng Man Ch’ing advised that the ch’i will collect at the tan-t’ien until it overflows into the tailbone and transits to the top of the head, but he warned against any attempt to force the flow.
 

Omori Sogen cautioned similarly:
 

… It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting.  We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force. 
 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training:  A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59)

 

I would posit that the patterns in the development of ch’i reflect involuntary activity of the body generated in the stretch of ligaments. There is, in addition, a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that can be effected by pressure generated in the abdominal cavity and that may quite possibly depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract (see my Kinesthesiology of Fascial Support). 
 

The final level in the development of ch’i concerns “chin”.  According to the classics, “chin comes from the ligaments”. 

The three stages of the final level are:
 

“t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”; “omnipotence”. 
 

(“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78)

 

Another translator rendered the last stage above as “perfect clarity” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 57). In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is “the pureness of (one’s) mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration.
 

The Tai Chi classics emphasize relaxation. For me, calm is also required with regard to the stretch of ligaments, if “automatic movement” is to be realized.  The stretch of a ligament prior to strain is small (6%), and I would say that automatic movement is only initiated at the edge of the range. 
 

Cheng Man Ch’ing mentioned a Chinese description of seated meditation, “straighten the chest and sit precariously” (ibid p 21)–I think that also speaks to the necessity of calm.
 

In my experience, “automatic” activity in the movement of breath can at times depend on the relaxation of particular muscle groups and the exercise of calm with regard to the stretch of particular ligaments.  I believe that a pattern in the circulation of “automatic” activity can develop, especially when a bent-knee posture or carriage is maintained over a period of time.
 

“Automatic” activity in the movement of breath also follows as one “lays hold of one-pointedness”, but in order to “lay hold”, carriage of the weight of the body must fall to the ligaments and volitive activity in the body must be relinquished. 

(A Way of Living)

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Do you want me to become a lurker yet,   old3bob ?

 

hello no, you are fine as you are.

 

Btw bellybuttons would be more difficult to get sand out of them without water,  but of course most gals would not want a stranger on the beach doing that...