On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

If it is a skin-to-skin contact like on the vid then sure. But out of sight - no.

 

That’s jin… very different to fa qi…

 

At distance it’s simply when the student is resonating with his teachers field and it’s very much ‘permissive’ - wouldn’t happen with a non-student or if he chose not to let it affect him.

what about actual ‘fa-qi’ stuff like:

 

baring in mind that these are simply ‘low level’ demonstrations of qi - not of any spiritual attainment (which are much stranger and I’ve never seen shown on video)

[Indiken]

.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Indiken

[Taoist Texts]

26 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Joke: folks, are you sure you are practicing Alchemy ?  

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

what about actual ‘fa-qi’ stuff like:

To me it looks fake. But lets say I proved to myself that it is real. Being an engineer that i am i would adjust my worldview to incorporate the result of this experiment. Faqi would become one of rare but normal phenomena, not a miracle. Then i would ask myself: What good this feat is to the performer? He does not look much happier than I am.  Then what good it is to me?

 

Like my teacher Crazy Ma was wont of saying: 'even if you can leap over the Bohai Bay in a single bound holding the Mt. Tai under your arm - how would that save you from suffering'?

[Master Logray]

I would also be very skeptical.  From the experiences of 80s to 90s, it is advisable not only invite journalists and scientists to attend such demonstrations, but stage magicians as well.

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Then i would ask myself: What good this feat is to the performer? He does not look much happier than I am.  Then what good it is to me?

That’s a good question. 
 

What good would this do for you?
 

Very little - in my school, it would simply prove to you and your teachers that your qi is now full and your channels are now open and well configured.

 

Doing this sort of demonstration repeatedly would do you harm over time.

 

But if have enough Qi to do this - then you’ll be sure that you now have the correct level of ingredients for further alchemical transformation.

 

Thats all.

 

Without the fullness of this ingredient you simply get transitory internal phenomena that come and go - no permanent and complete transformation… just processes that get going (phenomena arises) then runs out of steam (phenomena ends)… then repeat - perhaps with different phenomena.

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

I would also be very skeptical.

 

Absolutely should be skeptical - especially when someone is so willing to demonstrate this for you… and especially if there’s a large sum of money involved somewhere in this process.

 

It has and is often faked.

 

I’ve seen both faked fa qi and genuine fa qi… there’s a way to tell the difference.

But that’s not important… this, to me, is one of the least unbelievable or ‘miraculous’ things to happen in these arts.

 

At least for my teacher - if you can’t demonstrate (real) fa qi, then you’re not ‘full’ enough yet… it’s never to be shown to anyone in public… in fact I’ve seen how when people get obsessed with this sort of stuff, they’re asked to leave the school.

[Taoist Texts]

47 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

it is advisable not only invite journalists and scientists to attend such demonstrations, but stage magicians as well.

i would invite circus clowns too. if none is forthcoming i  could boldly play the part.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

To me it looks fake. But lets say I proved to myself that it is real. Being an engineer that i am i would adjust my worldview to incorporate the result of this experiment. Faqi would become one of rare but normal phenomena, not a miracle. Then i would ask myself: What good this feat is to the performer? He does not look much happier than I am.  Then what good it is to me?

 

Like my teacher Crazy Ma was wont of saying: 'even if you can leap over the Bohai Bay in a single bound holding the Mt. Tai under your arm - how would that save you from suffering'?

If you experience it for yourself it’s one of the few things that will completely convince you that what we are doing here is all real. 

 

As for what good it will do to you, it allows you to perform the service of healing others, and that in itself should make you happier. 

[Wilhelm]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

It seems, the OP asks: these traditional achievements (goalposts)  are obviously fantastic so its either:

A] the tradition lies. OR. B] these words do not mean what they mean (they are metaphors).

While that's not exactly what I was intending I can appreciate how it might be read that way, as well as the value of such a discussion.

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I did not see the direct answer to this dilemma on the preceding 17 pages, so here it is. The answer is the goalposts are literal and real but only subjectively. When you achieve them, to you,  they will be as literally real as a chair you sit on but only in your mind's reality. They will not exist for anyone else.

You're right - that's the most direct answer I've seen so far.  Would it fair to sum it up as 'everything is internal'?

 

I'm sure you know my bias towards fantastic claims as alluded to in the post, and so my criticism of the view presented above should be taken with my bias in mind.  Basically - if a large portion of our training is in building Qi, and Qi is said to be the 'bridge' between the physical and non-physical worlds, why is it ridiculous to assume Qi could affect the physical world (in the form of visibly and objectively demonstrable phenomena)?  We're certainly not visualizing our practice here (you and I specifically, I mean) so are we simply affecting our nervous system in an unobservable way?

 

Sharing my own view - I am under the assumption (based on limited experience) that a degree of density and thickness is required in the Qi before it can affect the physical world beyond subtle nervous system sensations.  This happens most immediately subjectively in the fascia (i.e. through Zifagong) but once a degree of 'storage' is obtained in the LDT then its safer to make demonstrations external (but I don't see any reason they would need to other than demonstration of someone's skill).   But if the Qi you've built isn't thick enough to push into the fascia then of course demonstrations like the above would seem fantastical and unbelievable.

 

Quote

(That said of course there are people who claim that fantastic miracles like siddhi etc are objectively real, a claim that cannot be reasonably discussed.)

I think we're discussing it reasonably right now... We have differing beliefs around the topic, but so long as those beliefs aren't taken as objective truth then why wouldn't the conversation stay reasonable?

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wilhelm

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

15 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Sharing my own view - I am under the assumption (based on limited experience) that a degree of density and thickness is required in the Qi before it can affect the physical world beyond subtle nervous system sensations.  This happens most immediately subjectively in the fascia (i.e. through Zifagong) but once a degree of 'storage' is obtained in the LDT then its safer to make demonstrations external (but I don't see any reason they would need to other than demonstration of someone's skill).   But if the Qi you've built isn't thick enough to push into the fascia then of course demonstrations like the above would seem fantastical and unbelievable. 

Like Freeform said, in many schools faqi is a physical goalpost to show that you have developed enough qi to be able to perform it. You can either do it (unassisted) or you can’t. It’s a goalpost that can’t be moved. 
 

But it just happens to be useful for healing and is also a cool party trick. 

[Wilhelm]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

-The true believer: Yay, the miracles exist!

-The silly skeptic: Great, can i see them?

-The true believer: No.

If the next line is 

 

-The silly skeptic: Ok then they don't exist 

 

Then I'd agree that both parties of the conversation have become unreasonable.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Barnaby]

3 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

and is also a cool party trick.

 

Not if you have a drink in the glass the qi master shatters 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Not if you have a drink in the glass the qi master shatters 

Ever heard of the miracle Jesus did of turning water into a big mess on the floor?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

If you experience it for yourself it’s one of the few things that will completely convince you that what we are doing here is all real. 

Of course experiencing will convince me. But experiencing what? Who are you and where is here? So many questions...

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Then I'd agree that both parties of the conversation have become unreasonable.

Thats exactly my point. You see, there is nothing the skeptic could say that would make this dialog constructive or rational. Lets try this:

- I say: The moon is made of green cheese.

- You say:...(?)

Edited February 1, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Would it fair to sum it up as 'everything is internal'?

of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

of 'storage' is obtained in the LDT then its safer to make demonstrations external

thats a very rational theory. but any theory needs to be confirmed in an experiment. have you personally participated in such an experiment?

 

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

allows you to perform the service of healing others, and that in itself should make you happier. 

erm, you see @freeform disagrees

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Doing this sort of demonstration repeatedly would do you harm over time.

 

[forestofemptiness]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Without the fullness of this ingredient you simply get transitory internal phenomena that come and go - no permanent and complete transformation… just processes that get going (phenomena arises) then runs out of steam (phenomena ends)… then repeat - perhaps with different phenomena

 

It is interesting to use the word "permanent"--- how do you know the transformation is permanent and not going to "run out of steam" say, under intense torture, brain damage, chemical imbalances, death, or at some distant point in the future? 

[forestofemptiness]

19 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Of course experiencing will convince me. But experiencing what? Who are you and where is here? So many questions...

Thats exactly my point. You see, there is nothing the skeptic could say that would make this dialog constructive or rational. Lets try this:

- I say: The moon is made of green cheese.

- You say:...(?)

 

How do you know that the moon is made of green cheese? How did you arrive at that conclusion? How confident are you? 

 

Unless you are saying that people who claim to have experienced siddhis or abnormal events are somehow beyond all reason and logic, to which I would ask the same questions above. 

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

- I say: The moon is made of green cheese.

- You say:...(?)

I'm not sure that particular abstraction is useful here, sir.

 

If I had said to 'man on the street' - "Qi is the bridge between the physical and the non-physical, which can be experienced through practice" then I would expect them to equate it with such an abstraction, but we're all practitioners of Qi-based arts here (you guys being more experienced than me).

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

No further argument!  I am outclassed in philosophy

Quote

thats a very rational theory. but any theory needs to be confirmed in an experiment. have you personally participated in such an experiment?

Since I haven't seen the fellow I study under since COVID the practice is basically a continuous experiment.  As to the reality of 'Qi influencing the physical body' that happened really early with the experience of Zifagong, and then later with Qi mobilization through the body's tissues. 

 

Maybe a couple months of Taiji training that emphasizes Song and Ting could accomplish the latter, and depending on one's energetic sensitivity and emotional makeup Zifagong can be kicked off within the space of a weekend workshop - especially if there's people in the room who've been through it already, as there seems to be some sort of empathetic reaction.

 

In terms of an experiment that can be observed and measured by an external party, I'm going to be encouraged to attempt a rather basic one later this year - I think the same one Freeform had talked about doing in a recent thread, which I can pm you about but its not my IP so I don't feel right discussing it openly.

 

And the general theory underpinning the practice is "Qi, when built correctly, will exert a greater influence over the physical world" with my own experience being mostly limited to the fascial system (which even in the abstract is a logical progression - being the system most directly linked to the nervous system where all of us first have Qi sensations)

 

Edit: humbug, the googly eyed reaction is never a good sign 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wilhelm

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

44 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Of course experiencing will convince me. But experiencing what? Who are you and where is here? So many questions...

 

Come on, what is even the point of these stupid questions. 
 

32 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

erm, you see @freeform disagrees

He not disagreeing with what I said. He’s absolutely correct that it can cause you harm over time if you don’t take a rest from doing it, or if you don’t replenish the qi lost from it by cultivating more.

[Creation]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

Without the fullness of this ingredient you simply get transitory internal phenomena that come and go - no permanent and complete transformation

Surely there are other ways to make the transformation permanent, seeing as not all realized beings can faqi? Is this how it works in your Buddhist lineage?

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

it’s never to be shown to anyone in public…

Your teacher ran a clinic, right? Did he do qi projection? If so, was it always waiqi liaofa?

 

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

how do you know the transformation is permanent and not going to "run out of steam" say, under intense torture, brain damage,

A reasonable question.

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

He not disagreeing with what I said. He’s absolutely correct that it can cause you harm over time if you don’t take a rest from doing it, or if you don’t replenish the qi lost from it by cultivating more.

Exactly.

 

I mean it does still do damage - even with replenishment…

 

But we all make choices… doctors get stressed and work late nights knowing it’s damaging them - but they still do it.

[freeform]

5 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is interesting to use the word "permanent"--- how do you know the transformation is permanent and not going to "run out of steam" say, under intense torture, brain damage, chemical imbalances, death, or at some distant point in the future? 

That’s a good question.

 

One of the signs of true attainment is permanence. Unwavering quality of the attainment.

 

When a spiritual transformation is permanent it is no longer conditioned by the body 

 

Even if you have a stroke or a brain lesion, the spirit remains transformed… the various subtle bodies remain transformed.
 

I’ve actually been in the presence of one such master - and despite being unable to speak or move much, just being in his presence I was filled bliss and my practice (and sleep) was greatly altered when staying at his compound.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

Surely there are other ways to make the transformation permanent, seeing as not all realized beings can faqi? Is this how it works in your Buddhist lineage?

With TT and Awaken I’ve been discussing Nei Dan.

 

Fa qi is just a way to test the fullness of the qi… other traditions test for it differently - some don’t even test for it at all.

 

Nei Dan - being a tantric tradition requires qi as the primary ingredient… Buddhism does things differently - though certainly the traditions that focus on the Jhannas will be building their energy body to a significant level too.

 

Quote

Your teacher ran a clinic, right? Did he do qi projection? If so, was it always waiqi liaofa?

Although he learned wai qi fiao fa, fa qi and lots of other such methods, his primary approach was through acupuncture… often not even inserting the needle.

 

He used a form of wei qi liao fa to assist students with practice though. He doesn’t seem to think that fa qi is as useful (though he’s opened some channels from me using fa qi - one of the most painful things I’ve ever felt)

[awaken]

There is something to be said for emitting "qi". It is also a fact that people who are too full of Qi can emit "Qi".
But the "qi" that can be emitted belongs to yin. It is similar to the qi you receive in the woods. Just one from humans and one from trees.
In a broad sense, everyone can emit "qi". Even a sick person can emit "qi". It's just that his "qi" is sick.
The sun can also emit "qi".
Hospitals are filled with the "qi" of sick people.
Stones can also emit "qi". In particular, the "ki" of the crystal is very sharp. Everyone should be able to easily feel the "Qi" of the crystal.

When you talk about emitting "qi", it should be comprehensive and extensive, and give the same standard to all things.
The truth is that not only qigong masters can emit qi.

But everyone was brainwashed into thinking that only qigong masters can emit qi.

Therefore, what everyone needs to cultivate is the ability to perceive Qi.

Just like a person with a stuffy nose, he can't smell at first, but when his nostrils are opened, he can smell.
The same goes for Qi.

When your perception ability is not opened, you are brainwashed into thinking that only a qigong master can generate qi.

But when your perception ability is opened, you know that not only qigong masters can generate qi.

So the point is that you have to get the ticket to generate perception.

This ticket is what your heart chiao has to open.

When you achieve conception, your heart orifice(chiao) will open.
And for a talented person, he may only need to spend a year to achieve it.

 

發出「氣」確有其事。氣過於飽滿的人能發「氣」也是事實。
但是能被發出的「氣」屬於陰。跟你在樹林裡面所接收到的氣是差不多的。只是一個來自於人類，一個來自於樹木。
廣義來講，每個人都能發出「氣」。連一個生病的人也能發出氣。只是他的「氣」是病氣。
太陽也能發「氣」。
醫院充滿了生病的人的「氣」。
石頭也能發出「氣」。特別是水晶的「氣」非常銳利。大家應該是可以很輕易地感受到水晶的「氣」。

當各位在講發出「氣」的時候，應該是要全面的，廣泛的，對所有的事物給予相同的標準。
事實就不是只有氣功大師才能發出氣。

但是大家卻被洗腦成只有氣功大師才能發出氣。

因此大家要培養的是對氣的感知能力。

就像一個鼻塞的人，原本聞不到味道，但是當他鼻孔打開了，他可以聞到味道。
氣也是一樣。

當你的感知能力沒有打開的時候，你被洗腦成只有氣功大師才能發氣。

但是當你的感知能力打開的時候，你就知道不是只有氣功大師才能發氣。

所以重點你要拿到產生感知能力的門票。

這個門票就是你的心竅必須打開。

當你達成結胎的時候，你的心竅就會打開。
而對一個有天賦的人來說，他只要花一年的時間就可以做到。

 

Opening the heart orifice does not require a qigong master, but only a natural way of cultivation.
It's not painful either, but it takes time to penetrate the yin and yang.
Practice at least once a day, and it takes about one ancient Chinese hour, which is two hours.
This is not my personal discovery. You can see this record in the ancient alchemy classics.
When you really follow the nature to cultivate, you will also find that two hours is an average.

 

打開心竅不需要氣功大師，只需要符合自然的修道方式。
也不會痛苦，但是需要花時間穿透陰陽。
每天至少要練一場，大概需要一個古代中國時辰也就是兩小時。
這並不是我個人的發現，各位在古代丹道經典都可以看到這個紀錄。
當你真正遵循自然去修道，你也會發現兩小時是一個平均值。

 

In fact, a Qigong master cannot help a student open his heart orifice.

A qigong master can help to open up the yang part, but he can't do anything about the yin part.
Because he has not opened his own heart orifice, how can he help his students to open it?

 

事實上氣功大師是無法幫助學生打開他的心竅。

氣功大師能幫助打開的屬於陽的部分，陰的部分他是無能為力的。
因為他自己的心竅也沒打開，他怎麼可能幫助他的學生去打開呢？

 

 

When I mentioned Lu Zu Huanghe Fu earlier, it was mentioned that it would take two hours to practice a round.
"Jade liquid and gold liquid, one is Min and one is Xin; two waiting periods and four waiting periods, half in Kan and half in Li."

An ancient Chinese hour is two hours and can be divided into six periods.
Black liver takes two periods, about forty minutes.
Rabbit marrow takes four periods, about eighty minutes.

 

前面提到呂祖黃鶴賦的時候，就有講到練一場要花兩個小時。
「玉液金液，一了性而一了命；二候四候，半在坎而半在離。」

一個古代中國時辰是兩個小時，可分為六段。
烏肝花費兩段的時間，大約四十分鐘。
兔髓花費四段的時間，大約八十分鐘。
 

Therefore, if a person only practices Qi, he will complete the Qi cycle in about 30 to 40 minutes.
But the circulation of rabbit marrow must take 80 minutes, and this part is not taught by Qigong masters.

所以一個人如果只有練氣，大概三十到四十分鐘就會走完氣的循環。
但是兔髓的循環就必須花上八十分鐘，而這個部分是氣功大師不教的。

 

Another myth is to confuse a strong sense of qi with a powerful qi.

Can a ditch with a rapid flow have the same amount of water as a large river with a gentle flow?

Therefore, the strong feeling of qi is not because the qi is very strong, but because of too much resistance, which produces a strong feeling.

The strong resistance comes from the narrow "Qi" channel.

Narrow Qi channels come from unnatural ways of cultivating Taoism.

If a person follows the natural way of cultivation and alternates between yin and yang repeatedly, the qi channels will naturally become bigger and bigger as they are practiced.

Only the way of practicing yang but not yin will cause a strong flow of "qi" to flow between the narrow qi channels.

 

另外還有一個迷思，就是把強烈的氣感和強大的氣混為一談。

請問一條水流很急的水溝，跟一條水流很緩和的大江河能有同樣的水量嗎？

所以氣感很強烈並不是因為氣很強大，而是因為阻力太大，才會產生強烈的感覺。

而強大的阻力來自於狹窄的「氣」脈。

狹窄的氣脈來自於違反自然的修道方式。

如果一個人遵循自然的修道方式，在陰陽之間反覆交替，氣脈就會自然越練越大。

只有練陽不練陰的方式，才會造成強大的「氣」流在狹隘的氣脈之間流動。

Edited February 2, 2023 by awaken