Vajrayana Discussion

[awaken]

The Vajrayana religious tradition is completely useless to me, only the root scripture has value.

The Vajrayana religious tradition is just a toy created by a bunch of unattainable masters, without any real meaning.

I suggest that you should abandon the religious toys of the Vajrayana, and find out the English version of the Vajrayana classics to see clearly.

 

金剛乘的宗教傳統對我來說完全是沒用的東西，只有那本根本經典才有價值。

金剛乘的宗教傳統只是一堆無法達成的大師所搞出來的玩具，沒有什麼真實的意義。

建議各位應該捨棄金剛乘的宗教玩具，去把金剛乘的英文版經典找出來看清楚。

 

 

[Piyadasi]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

No, Hinduist Tantra did not. VY did. Different teachings. Hinduist Tantra was incorporated to mix with Buddhism and to become the  Buddist VY.

 

How do we know it was from lay mendicants and not  temple priests?  (And of course a mendicant religious practitioner is not lay.) And what exactly did they  practice? VY or  Hinduist tantra?

I dont know if you mean Hinduist tantra or VY? If VY then sure why not? You heard about the chakravartin dogma. Of course if you  claim that VY existed for multiple centuries before Padmasabhava's Vajrayana in Tibet (circa 8th – 9th centuries) then there is no evidence of that.

 

i would like to read some sources .people just claim things. nobody provides sources anymore. well, except myself. and wikipedia.

Hindu and Buddhist has little meaning in the early period, considering many saints are equally venerated in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, regardless of where and what they studied, such as Saraha, Virupa, Kanhapa or Matsyendranath.

My points were based partly on the fact that things such as mantras, mudras and rituals, even subtle body practices, basically some of the main features of Tantra, demonstrably existed way before Padmasambhava, in both Buddhist and Hindu traditions.

As for Vajrayana in the more close definition, I would argue that before something is written down and enters main stream institutionalized education, it has a long tradition of oral lineage transmission behind it. It is also a tradition that positions itself in opposition to the mainstream, both in society and spirituality, constantly. I'm mostly talking about the Vajrayana of the early Mahasiddhas and the early practice lineages of Nyingma and Kagyu. It is true also, that especially in it's transmission into Tibet, universities and missions sponsored by the wealthy played a big role, no argument on that. But actually often these were not very 'tantric' and there was a lot of conflict in how to synthesize the lines coming from those missions and the 'grassroots' lines coming from lay yogin practitioners as Apech has already alluded to. It is certainly a great feat of scholarly magic that these two have been merged into one and became the Vajrayana we know today

I'm not a scholar and in fact I have thoroughly exhausted all desire to engage in historical debate, so I'm sure I don't live up to scholarly standards. I have read a scholarly book some years ago I think it was called Origins of Yoga and Tantra, it makes similar points that I do, traces the origins with a historians mind - though usually concludes with 'well it's really hard to know when from the historical record' - if you really want something to add to your reading list. I admit I could not be bothered to read something like that again!

I really only wanted to make the point about the meaning of Vajra, so with this post I'll bow out of the historical discussion 🙏

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

I'm not a scholar and in fact I have thoroughly exhausted all desire to engage in historical debate, so I'm sure I don't live up to scholarly standards. I have read a scholarly book some years ago I think it was called Origins of Yoga and Tantra, it makes similar points that I do, traces the origins with a historians mind - though usually concludes with 'well it's really hard to know when from the historical record' - if you really want something to add to your reading list. I admit I could not be bothered to read something like that again!

The issue is (as you’ve stated already) that these arts - whether Buddhist, Daoist or Hindu, are primarily oral traditions passed down through apprenticeship. Through master - disciple relationships.

 

Texts in these traditions are very much tertiary. They certainly play a role - but a minor one compared to what’s passed on through direct oral (and energetic) transmission.

 

So using texts - although amazingly convenient - will not get you much at all. It won’t tell you about the practices much… it won’t give you very accurate historical data… it won’t tell you what’s passed down through the direct apprenticeship.

 

Oh but it’s so convenient - you can hold texts up as ‘facts’… you can refer to them… you can analyse… you can compare and contrast… you can collect way more than you know what to do with… and all from the comfort of your armchair.

 

But it’s not cultivation. Reading a book, even ALL THE BOOKS, about tennis will not make you anywhere near the level of even a competent beginner who’s been trained by a coach.

 

I think it’s grand to be able to read all this stuff and talk about it.

 

But thinking that it reveals everything about the tradition is just so naive.

 

It surprises me that people fall into this trap…

 

(but it is just so convenient though!)

[Barnaby]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

Oh but it’s so convenient - you can hold texts up as ‘facts’… you can refer to them… you can analyse… you can compare and contrast… you can collect way more than you know what to do with… and all from the comfort of your armchair.

 

And of course there's now also the modern-day equivalent of books to contend with: the YouTube video. 

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

And of course there's now also the modern-day equivalent of books to contend with: the YouTube video. 

Yup.

 

There’s this infamous guy who called himself SonOfTheGods or something like that… (apparently died recently, rest in peace, if that’s true)…

 

But he used to post videos of himself meditating and using really cheap aftereffects stuff to create various magical phenomena…

 

Theres one of him levitating… there’s one of him with some kind of fireball… he also had the habit of putting an incense stick under the camera so that as the smoke passed by the camera lens it created ‘magical orbs’…

 

[Miffymog]

51 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yup.

 

There’s this infamous guy who called himself SonOfTheGods or something like that… (apparently died recently, rest in peace, if that’s true)…

 

But he used to post videos of himself meditating and using really cheap aftereffects stuff to create various magical phenomena…

 

Theres one of him levitating… there’s one of him with some kind of fireball… he also had the habit of putting an incense stick under the camera so that as the smoke passed by the camera lens it created ‘magical orbs’…

 

 

Sorry @freeform, if it is true he's recently passed, then it might be more sensitive to wait a little longer before you critize him directly.

 

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

Thanks, I was aware of this but it is worth rereading.  

 

There is a Buddhologist mythos which suggests a kind of historical development, early Buddhism - Hinayana practice - schism by Mahayanist - contamination by 'Hindu' tantra giving Vajrayana.  I researched this a few years ago to the depth that I could using what was then up to date academic Buddhist studies papers and so on.  And the conclusion is that none of this happened.

 

The person of the Buddha has been cloaked in all sorts of back projection, including the idea that he was some kind of super-rational Socrates or similar.  The modern secular Buddhists are the worst for this.  It is much more likely that the traditional view is  correct - that the Buddha taught in a wide variety of ways, different strands of which became popular at different periods of history - according to the worldly conditions which people had to deal with and the changing temperament of man.  So it is quite easy to conceive of the idea that in a war-like time the 'truth' of dharma (or the realisation of it) became to be seen as like a weapon, also perhaps for certain people who dwelt in the sumptuous courts of Medieval India the images of luxury and sex could be invoked to teach the dharma.  The scholastic monastic path is not the only one, nor was it ever.

 

If you want an eye opener as to what Buddhist monks actually got up to, I can highly recommend this book:

 

Buddhist Magic: Divination, Healing, and Enchantment through the Ages Paperback – 28 July 2020

by Sam Van Schaik (Author)

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddhist-Magic-Divination-Healing-Enchantment/dp/1611808251/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1O039Q98YD47E&keywords=Buddhist+Magic&qid=1673956851&sprefix=buddhist+magic%2Caps%2C199&sr=8-1

 

I think it also worth bearing in mind that to be Buddhist, a teaching only has to uphold the Four Seals:

 

1)  compounded phenomena are impermanent

2  )  self associated with phenomena is suffering

3) Nirvana is perfect peace

4) phenomena are pure beyond elaboration

 

this makes Buddhism incredibly adaptive and capable of taking up many forms of expression without losing it's nature as dharma.

 

 

[freeform]

31 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

 

Sorry @freeform, if it is true he's recently passed, then it might be more sensitive to wait a little longer before you critize him directly.

 

You’re right of course.
 

I have no criticism of him as a person - whether he has passed or not.

I’ve only ever seen videos and writings - those I’m critical of, yes - but I’m also aware that he may have been a wonderful son, brother, or father - a good friend and someone that has benefited the world and contributed to others in many other beneficial ways. 

 

If he has passed then I wholeheartedly wish him smooth and speedy passage onto whatever is next. 🙏🏼

[awaken]

．

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

But it’s not cultivation. Reading a book, even ALL THE BOOKS, about tennis will not make you anywhere near the level of even a competent beginner who’s been trained by a coach.

hmm so cultivation is very much like learning a mundane skill. and not just any skill. its like learning a competitive televised sport. with a partner a judge and spectators. interesting;)

[Taoist Texts]

40 minutes ago, Apech said:

There is a Buddhologist mythos which suggests a kind of historical development, early Buddhism - Hinayana practice - schism by Mahayanist - contamination by 'Hindu' tantra giving Vajrayana.  I researched this a few years ago to the depth that I could using what was then up to date academic Buddhist studies papers and so on.  And the conclusion is that none of this happened.

this is exciting. why not in  a nutshell?

41 minutes ago, Apech said:

The scholastic monastic path is not the only one, nor was it ever.

thats true

 

43 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you want an eye opener as to what Buddhist monks actually got up to

appreciate it

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

hmm so cultivation is very much like learning a mundane skill. and not just any skill. its like learning a competitive televised sport. with a partner a judge and spectators. interesting;)

Nope - it’s more like learning a nuanced skill that employs both mind and body - and has a correct outcome and an incorrect outcome.

 

I guess that as you read what I wrote you’ve got the ability to pick and choose whichever meaning is more conducive to support your existing views…

 

You didn’t pick rackets or balls for some reason… and you didn’t pick the ‘nuances skill’ aspect either…

 

I wonder whether this bias might play into your understanding of classical texts too  

[Taoist Texts]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

You didn’t pick rackets or balls for some reason… and you didn’t pick the ‘nuances skill’ aspect either…

 

I wonder whether this bias might play into your understanding of classical texts too

oh i am biased against any skill. any skill is a dead end. thats what the classical text says 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_longa,_vita_brevis

a skill is a literal dead end

[freeform]

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i am biased against any skill. any skill is a dead end. thats what the classical text says 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_longa,_vita_brevis

a skill is a literal dead end

 

And yet you used your reading and comprehension skills to figure that out.

Funny that when you click on the “Interpretation” tab, it’s interpreted quite differently to your personal interpretation…

 

And that leads us nicely back to the point at hand - the fallibility of using texts as your main source of cultivation instruction.

 

[Master Logray]

46 minutes ago, freeform said:

And that leads us nicely back to the point at hand - the fallibility of using texts as your main source of cultivation instruction.

 

 

You are right that eastern traditions are quite master/apprentice way of teaching and it is usually by oral tradition.   There are 2 reasons behind this phenomenon, other than the need to keep in secrecy for a variety of considerations.

 

The first is many masters, great achievers in Taoist Neidan were not well educated nor full of wisdom as in movies and TVs.  Many were simply illiterate or could barely write their own names.   In fact these people are the ones with best powers and experience as they have nothing on their mind.   It was why apprentices were required to recite everything.  They didn't have to understand most of them.  They will understand when the time is ripe.

 

The ones who wrote books or knew everything in different cultivation, knew every philosophy, well versed in Buddhism or Tibetans or Yi Jing, able to explain everything, appearing in discussions, able to earn the trust and admiration of fellow cultivators,  very often were the 2nd tiers.    A great master have said.  One of his students was this type and able to explain things better than himself.  But this student's progress was not proportional to his knowledge.

 

It is often said that, with the right oral secret codes, one doesn't have to read the many sacred Dan books, or drown in the maze of obscurities.   With the secret codes, those books are used for verification of the practices as the one knows what are inside of these teachings, what are incorrectly said, what are missing.

 

The second reason is that, in order to progress in Neidan, some practitioners are better positioned.  Those who are dumb, muddle, single minded, obedient, with perseverance are usually the best students.   They have a clear mind, not distracted by desires and too much thinking (whether positive or negative thinkings, whether useful or daydreaming).

 

Those with a quick and sharp mind, able to multitasks, handling difficult situations on a daily basis, would understand the treatises better.   But they are inherently weaker in the pursuit.

 

 

 

[freeform]

44 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

With the secret codes, those books are used for verification of the practices as the one knows what are inside of these teachings, what are incorrectly said, what are missing.

Yup - practice unlocks the meaning within texts… the texts verify results from the practice.

 

Quote

Those who are dumb, muddle, single minded, obedient, with perseverance are usually the best students.   They have a clear mind, not distracted by desires and too much thinking (whether positive or negative thinkings, whether useful or daydreaming).

Well I’m not sure that’s necessarily true… sometimes things like ‘sitting and forgetting’ are misunderstood.

 

Most of the high level teachers I’ve come across have been very smart and successful in a variety of endeavours.

 

My teacher is fluent in 4 languages - and able to get by with several others… mostly picked up from his students and patients.
 

Other advanced teachers I’ve met have been very successful professionals in their early life. One became a professor of electrical engineering at a young age, and ran an incredibly successful international business… then gave it all up to cultivate.

 

The slow, dim, muddled ones - I’ve never come across any like that that have made much progress… I mean I’ve come across a couple of ‘crazy’ ones that crack weird ‘jokes’ mixed with perplexing but wise sounding sayings - and people assume they’re in some kind of high level, crazy wisdom, wu wei state - but to me it all appeared a bit contrived… an act - a kind of lifestyle more than genuine spiritual growth.

[Master Logray]

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

Other advanced teachers I’ve met have been very successful professionals in their early life. One became a professor of electrical engineering at a young age, and ran an incredibly successful international business… then gave it all up to cultivate.

 

The slow, dim, muddled ones - I’ve never come across any like that that have made much progress… I mean I’ve come across a couple of ‘crazy’ ones that crack weird ‘jokes’ mixed with perplexing but wise sounding sayings - and people assume they’re in some kind of high level, crazy wisdom, wu wei state - but to me it all appeared a bit contrived… an act - a kind of lifestyle more than genuine spiritual growth.

 

It could be due to those selection bias.  The one who teaches would mostly be those smarter, of sufficiently sociable, have some capabilities in organizing and administration.    We can't see those don't teach or have one or two disciples just to keep the lineage survive.

 

At one time, the China Taoist association sent a team to look for these people.  They found a Taoist nun who was very old but had a high Neidan level.  But she acted like a teenage girl.  She was naive and didn't know what is going on in the world, even for simple things.  When the conversation topic is related to Neidan, she could talk for an hour.  If the topic is other things, she just wandered off.    This type of people is seldomly noticed by others, let alone engage in teaching. 

 

I know another who even has a "certificate"  issued by temple in the old China.  He was mainly taught by his father and don't have any student.  His main preoccupation is to prepare medicine oil and buying vegetable.   When I met him, he was 70 but look like 50.

 

'Crazy' ones are not uncommon, even in forums.

 

[Shadow_self]

23 hours ago, freeform said:

haha talks ‘academia’… then posts a Wikipedia quote 🙈

 

It’s not the first time too…

 

Its like if Chi Dragon discovered western internet 😬

 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:02 PM, Shadow_self said:

I though we could have a wider discussion as opposed to the poll based thread

 

I think the following coming this week, is going to really make the discussion interesting. The timestamps look great

 

 

 

 

I hope this will take the discussion in an interesting direction  

Sorry - it looks like the conversation's moved on from the video in the OP but I just got around to watching it and found a few very interesting points.

 

Over the video Dr. Nida and Dr. Baker highlighted various important components of Vajrayana which they felt were being ignored by the 'foreign'/lay population - Ngondro, Bodhichitta, visiting holy sites, etc.

 

Empowerments are available in mass form online - even very powerful ones (the mentioned the Kalachakra empowerment given by highly qualified masters to millions by now)

 

They differentiated between the visualisation aspects of Tummo, the breath control aspects and the Yoga/exercise aspects.  Dr. Nida said the visualisation aspects were said to provide very subtle results and might take longer (though in the context he might have meant 'take longer to percieve', there was a slight language barrier)

 

They talked about some difficulties with how Varajyana is being taught to the public - that maybe not everyone should need to practice the six yogas and should be given exercises according to their strengths (i.e. the host - Steve, mentioned his preference for physical work over dream work and Dr. Nida said it would be fine for him to focus on his strengths)

 

There were some interesting points about Tummo which I didn't know i.e. how it's practiced according to the sun cycle (obtaining the 'spark' of sunrise, similarly to how I understand alchemy, but this could of course be unrelated)

 

All in all, it seems like their new venture 'The Varja Path' is their attempt to distill the core of the Varajyana tradition in a way presentable to a modern lay audience.  They had criticisms for both the overly academic/esoteric lectures given by specialists at the recent Bhutan conference (which were said to be largely unintelligible just because they were so specialized) as well as criticisms for modern teachers who shrug off tradition altogether and overly modernize the path.  This approach was very interesting to me because as some of you know I'm studying the methods of teachers who take a similar approach to separate traditions.

 

I wonder what developments this will have for Varajyana in the West.  For the practitioners of the tradition - do these criticisms align with your own perception of the tradition as a whole?  Is this venture indeed necessary?

[Taoist Texts]

22 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Those who are dumb, muddle, single minded, obedient, with perseverance are usually the best students.  

this is surprisingly accurate!

17 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Is this venture indeed necessary?

Well if it is underway then i would say it is necessary for its participants since they enjoy it. And joy is necessary for the whole world.  

23 hours ago, freeform said:

And yet you used your reading and comprehension skills

Oops, you did that again! Believing that  learning the Dao is the same as learning  a mundane skill is the foremost trap for a practicer. Once he falls into it he will only dig himself deeper. In fact learning the Dao is a complete, 180 degree opposite of learning a skill. Daodejing  48 says so.

Quote

He who devotes himself to learning (seeks) from day to day to increase (his knowledge); he who devotes himself to the Dao (seeks) from day to day to diminish  it.  https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing/ens#n11639

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Oops, you did that again! Believing that  learning the Dao is the same as learning  a mundane skill is the foremost trap for a practicer. Once he falls into it he will only dig himself deeper. In fact learning the Dao is a complete, 180 degree opposite of learning a skill. Daodejing  48 says so.

You did it too… “learning the Dao”… I guess learning is quite a bit easier though.

You've also made the mistake (a mistake from my POV) that 48 is talking about an accumulation of information - rather than an accumulation of self…

 

in the past, with great certainty, you’ve also made the mistake (my POV again) that DDJ is an instruction manual for governing the people… a mistake so grave that (for me, at least) it calls into question anything else you have to say about the DDJ at all. 🤷‍♂️

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

a mundane skill

Generating mastery and skill is at the centre of all Daoist methods. That’s why everything is developed to the level of Gong… from how you drink tea, to how you play music, to your painting and to your Gong Fu, Qi Gong, Shen Gong and so on…

 

Only at the stage of mastery of skill can you fully release any contrivance… only then can wei wu wei arise…

 

[Apech]

So glad we kept on topic.

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

So glad we kept on topic.

Sorry - I almost never keep on-topic! My fault.

 

I’m still very interested in the answers people have for the question @Wilhelm posed:

Quote

I wonder what developments this will have for Varajyana in the West.  For the practitioners of the tradition - do these criticisms align with your own perception of the tradition as a whole?  Is this venture indeed necessary?

 

[Barnaby]

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’m still very interested in the answers people have for the question @Wilhelm posed:

 

Colour me cynical, but this podcast series comes over to me like a shop window for economic actors in the spiritual marketplace...