Vajrayana Discussion

[awaken]

You really have a cultural barrier.
But I made it clear that King Kong and Diamond are the same Chinese.

 

金(king , gin) gold

剛(kong) hard

 

金剛 hard like gold

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by awaken

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, steve said:

How do linguists deal with English words like

What’s of more concern to me is how linguists deal with cultivation…

 

It appears the answer is ‘through linguistics’…

 

Which is a little troubling 

[steve]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

What’s of more concern to me is how linguists deal with cultivation…

 

It appears the answer is ‘through linguistics’…

 

Which is a little troubling 

 

And what exactly is the fruit of their labor?

 

A plum, a peach, a cherry?

And when they’ve finished eating, do they jump into the pit?

 

BTW, the dzogchen pith instructions are a good source of fiber…

[Taoist Texts]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

I was always taught we distinguish ambiguous meaning based on context.

that is totally true we do that.  But for the purposes of  this discussion our task is not to distinguish the meanings of vajra-weapon and vajra-diamond. We can easily know  which meaning a modern VY proponent means. Rather we should determine  why the very first VY founder decided to call his teaching vajra. What did he had in mind? A mace, a diamond, or both? I propose it was a  mace because the primary purpose of a religion is to slay demons and you cannot do that with a diamond. Diamonds are small and fragile. 

 

 

Quote

 

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au › articles › diamonds-the...

Dec 18, 2015 — “Whilst its cubic arrangement makes a diamond very hard, it is also somewhat brittle,” says Professor Phillips

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

30 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

So more properly Vajra in the context of Vajrayana actually means the process by which the Unstoppable and transcendent (lightning) strikes the mundane, the potential (earth) to create the Indestructible and purified (diamond).

its  a nice metaphor but whose? Does it come from a VY sutra?

[steve]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Rather we should determine  why the very first VY founder decided to call his teaching vajra. What did he had in mind? A mace, a diamond, or both?

 

What if the founder called it something completely different and some adepts centuries later change the terminology? What gives them exclusive control of how the words are interpreted by subsequent generations and speakers of different languages? Words are a bit like art in that way, the listener takes away what they can or what they choose from the word, not necessarily the original intent, like it or not.

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

What if the founder called it something completely different and some adepts centuries later change the terminology?

entirely possible

5 minutes ago, steve said:

the listener takes away what they can or what they choose from the word, not necessarily the original intent, like it or not.

i like it. i am all for personal freedom and personal responsibility

[Piyadasi]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

its  a nice metaphor but whose? Does it come from a VY sutra?

I'm not sure, but if a culture has a common understanding and a tale of sorts (preserved to this day) attached to certain words, why would a master have to write a Sutra to explain the meaning of something that everyone around him understood anyways? If you have the association in your head between lightning and diamond, and grew up with your mom telling you that on rare occasions the king of the gods strikes some common cow dung to create the amazing and precious diamond, would you be confused as to what meaning is implied by this term? You probably don't understand what this implies spiritually, but as you go train with your master, and advance on your path, it becomes clearer and clearer what is meant. I think this is a different way of thinking than what is common nowadays, but this sort of symbolic thinking is prevalent in all of human history before the modern day. Certainly dissecting the linguistic origin and the "Proto-Indo-European root" of the word played little part in the average Bengali (or Tibetan) peasant cultivator's life in 900CE.

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

'm not sure,  ........the king of the gods strikes ....... to create the amazing and precious diamond,

i am not sure either but i suspect that this is not an apt metaphor for  how the VY method works . But thats the trouble with metaphors they can mean anything to anyone. Thats why i always ask for concrete examples and pps get annoyed when i do that.

 

13 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

peasant cultivator's

hmm VY is a religion. if you said a peasant believer or a priest or a practitioner i would understand. but i do not know what a peasant cultivator is. what does he cultivate?

[awaken]

There are a total of 650 King Kong XX, please study slowly

 

 

http://koyasan.org.tw/old/new_page_74.htm

 

The most meaningless thing in this book is the word King Kong. If you are the author today, if you don’t like the word King Kong, you can change it to the three words XYZ, and then there will be a group of people studying why they use it every day. XYZ?

 

這本書最沒有意義的就是金剛這兩個字了，今天如果你是作者，你要是不喜歡金剛這兩個字，你可以換成ＸＹＺ這三個字，然後就有一群人天天研究為什麼要用ＸＹＺ？

Edited January 16, 2023 by awaken

[Piyadasi]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am not sure either but i suspect that this is not an apt metaphor for  how the VY method works . But thats the trouble with metaphors they can mean anything to anyone. Thats why i always ask for concrete examples and pps get annoyed when i do that.

 

hmm VY is a religion. if you said a peasant believer or a priest or a practitioner i would understand. but i do not know what a peasant cultivator is. what does he cultivate?

I think it's a great metaphor. But I can offer you no concrete evidence to 'prove' that this is the definite meaning. In fact I'm sure it's not the only layer of meaning, you can read about many layers of interpretation with a quick search online. I just wanted to offer one perspective that is not that removed in terms of symbology and is closely tied to the word itself.

I think your perspective on Vajrayana is a little flawed though. I don't know how familiar you are with it's history, but it started as anything but what we'd call a religion. It was not propagated by priests or the priestly class (Brahmins) or even the monastic hierarchy, quite the opposite it was a secret, oral transmission of practice and condensed teachings for mainly lay practitioners, that had little to no power in society and in fact were against societal norms in most ways. There wasn't much of a room for 'believer' in these traditions, since the practices demanded much more than what is expected of believers. Lay cultivators without churches or fancy robes also had less need to harness other people's power and resources in return for a simple system that made daily life more bearable for the average believer.

Though I do agree it turned into something quite different in later stages   Well, cultivation might have remained, but a whole layer of 'religion' was also established.

Well I'd guess they'd cultivate what most of us try to? Our being with it's many different layers and our connection to something higher.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Piyadasi

[Apech]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Not at all. You are always welcome.

 

Yes, in my professional opinion of a trained linguist it does. Otherwise we would not be able to understand each other. 

the notion that a same word can have different meanings is a misunderstanding

This one is a good example. E g one could think this refers to two different things - a toy and a gun. Instead it denotes just one thing: the semiautomatic action common to those things.

 

 

 

you dont say

 

 

"There's a sign on the wall
But she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.

 

Shut your mouth Robert Plant,

Taoist Texts says they can't,

And from now on every word has one meaning."

 

  -  Short extract from the definitive teachings 'Buying a Stairway to Heaven' by phLed dZep Rinpoche.

 

 

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

I think it's a great metaphor. But I can offer you no concrete evidence to 'prove' that this is the definite meaning. In fact I'm sure it's not the only layer of meaning, you can read about many layers of interpretation with a quick search online. I just wanted to offer one perspective that is not that removed in terms of symbology and is closely tied to the word itself.

I think your perspective on Vajrayana is a little flawed though. I don't know how familiar you are with it's history, but it started as anything but what we'd call a religion. It was not propagated by priests or the priestly class (Brahmins) or even the monastic hierarchy, quite the opposite it was a secret, oral transmission of practice and condensed teachings for mainly lay practitioners, that had little to no power in society and in fact were against societal norms in most ways. There wasn't much of a room for 'believer' in these traditions, since the practices demanded much more than what is expected of believers. Lay cultivators without churches or fancy robes also had less need to harness other people's power and resources in return for a simple system that made daily life more bearable for the average believer.

Though I do agree it turned into something quite different in later stages   Well, cultivation might have remained, but a whole layer of 'religion' was also established.

Well I'd guess they'd cultivate what most of us try to? Our being with it's many different layers and our connection to something higher.

 

One of the sayings of Vajrayana Buddhists is to be Hinayana on the outside, Mahayana inside and Vajrayana in secret.

 

One of the things I struggled with for a while in studying the Karma Kagyu lineage was that in Tilopa and Naropa you have mahasiddhas who lived on the edge of society and embodied the one flavour and sometimes transgressive approach of mahasiddhas.  Then Marpa a lay practitioner.  Then Milarepa a mountain yogi and thence to Gampopa who is said to have resolved the 'conflict' between the monastic tradition and that of his teachers.  I wondered if this was really possible.  I still don't know the answer to be sure.

 

If we take VajraYana not to be a religion per se, but that it is embedded in the Buddhist religion (usually) then this might be closer to the truth.

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."

 

-- Lewis Carroll

 

The best words, in my opinion, have multiple meanings.  The context determines the main meaning but the alternative definitions tag along adding what my friend Greg refers to as "texture and color."  It's not just any weapon, but a weapon with some of the qualities of a diamond.  Take your pick -- precious, beautiful, reflective, indestructible, eternal. 

[C T]

Time flies like an arrow. 

 

Meanwhile.... 

 

Fruit flies like a banana. 

[awaken]

Does anyone have the online English version of Vajrasekhara Sutra?

 

I have two doubts, first one, have you all read the Vajrasekhara Sutra?

 

Second, do you all know what Vajrasekhara Sutra is talking about?

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

45 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Vajrayana is a little flawed though. I don't know how familiar you are with it's history, but it started as anything but what we'd call a religion. It was not propagated by priests or the priestly class (Brahmins) or even the monastic hierarchy, quite the opposite it was a secret, oral transmission of practice and condensed teachings for mainly lay practitioners, that had little to no power in society

yes thank you very much for that perspective. There is totally opposite view in academia.

Quote

 

Vajrayana Buddhism developed in India around the 6th or 7th century CE. Tantric ideas began to be incorporated into the teachings of Buddhist universities in Northern India, gradually leading to the development of a new tradition.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/vajrayana-buddhism-definition-beliefs-practices.html

 

 

Quote

 

Padmasambhava ("Born from a Lotus"),^{[note 1]} also known as Guru Rinpoche (Precious Guru) and the Lotus from Oḍḍiyāna, was a tantric Buddhist Vajra master from India who taught Vajrayana in Tibet (circa 8th – 9th centuries).

the reign of King Trisong Detsen (r. 755–797/804).^[16]... Trisong Detsen had invited the Buddhist abbot and philosopher Śāntarakṣita (725–788) to Tibet to propagate Buddhism and help found the first Buddhist monastery at Samye ('The Inconceivable'). ... On his return, Śāntarakṣita brought Padmasambhava who was an Indian tantric adept from Oddiyana, in present-day Swat Valley, Pakistan.^[18][19][20] Padmasambhava's task was to tame the local spirits and impress the Tibetans with his magical and ritual powers. The Tibetan sources then explain how Padmasambhava identified the local gods and spirits, called them out and threatened them with his powers

 

 

To sum it up: VY started in universities in India, was brought to Tibet by a scholar and a high-ranking priest on orders of a Tibetan king as an organised, country-wide  population conversion to Buddhism. The goal of VY was to subdue the local cults which would oppose the said conversion. 

So right from the get-go VY was anything but a powerless oral secret transmission with a goal to cultivate our beings. A total 180 degree opposite of that.

But thats all good;)

 

 

 

 

 

[Piyadasi]

16 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

To sum it up: VY started in universities in India, was brought to Tibet by a scholar and a high-ranking priest on orders of a Tibetan king as an organised, country-wide  population conversion to Buddhism. The goal of VY was to subdue the local cults which would oppose the said conversion. 

So right from the get-go VY was anything but a powerless oral secret transmission with a goal to cultivate our beings. A total 180 degree opposite of that.

But thats all good;)

Yes, this is the understanding that one might gain after a 5 minute read of the Wikipedia article (on Padmasambhava specifically).
 

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Tantric ideas began to be incorporated into

The fact is that even your article says, that Tantra was incorporated into the Buddhist universities, meaning that it did not originate there. Where did they incorporate it from? From the lay mendicant tradition that I described earlier. By the time you have it in the universities it has been an ongoing transmission for 2-3 centuries. Many of the revered masters of these traditions who lived by the time Tantra was well-known in universities actually left or were kicked out of the university orthodoxy. If they even studied there at all.
 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

was brought to Tibet by a scholar and a high-ranking priest on orders of a Tibetan king as an organised, country-wide  population conversion to Buddhism.

Which failed. There were several waves of transmission, it was a mix of invitations from India by the wealthy and also Tibetans seeking out Indian masters, travelling and practicing. It took a few centuries for it to be completed. The various Nyingma and early Kagyu lineages were all "grassroots". The Tibetan transmission is also not how Vajrayana begins, so it's not so relevant to it's origin.
 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

The goal of VY was to subdue the local cults which would oppose the said conversion. 

Really... you think that's all there is to it? The goal of a tradition that has been going on in India and some other places for multiple centuries is for it to subdue local cults in another country? If you're going to be talking about other traditions, at least read something other than Taoist Texts and Wikipedia articles...

[Apech]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B008D30MMW/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

 

Indian Esoteric Buddhism: A Social History of the Tantric Movement 1st Edition, Kindle Edition

by Ronald Davidson (Author)  

 

"Despite the rapid spread of Buddhism—especially the esoteric system of Tantra, one of its most popular yet most misunderstood forms—the historical origins of Buddhist thought and practice remain obscure. This groundbreaking work describes the genesis of the Tantric movement in early medieval India, where it developed as a response to, and in some ways an example of, the feudalization of Indian society. Drawing on primary documents—many translated for the first time—from Sanskrit, Prakrit, Tibetan, Bengali, and Chinese, Ronald Davidson shows how changes in medieval Indian society, including economic and patronage crises, a decline in women's participation, and the formation of large monastic orders, led to the rise of the esoteric tradition in India that became the model for Buddhist cultures in China, Tibet, and Japan."

 

Worth a read - if you have the time.

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

There is totally opposite view in academia.

Quote

haha talks ‘academia’… then posts a Wikipedia quote 🙈

 

It’s not the first time too…

 

Its like if Chi Dragon discovered western internet 😬

[awaken]

The Vajrasekhara Sutra, like the Huang Ting Sutra, reveals the highest achievement in cultivation.

There will always be someone who reaches this place. As an office worker, I bend my waist for five buckets of rice every day, and I can reach the elementary stage of real people（immortal）. With so many professional practitioners, I don't believe that no one has reached the stage of real people.

 

金剛頂經就跟黃庭經一樣，透露著修煉最高的成就。

總會有人達到這個地方的，我一個上班族，每天為五斗米折腰，都能達到初級的真人階段，那麼多專業修行者，我就不相信沒有人達到真人階段。

 

This scripture is absolutely not passed down in secret, but it is the achievement of many people, and it is a book recognized by those who have achieved it.
Today, if I don't only reach the elementary stage of real people, if I have the ability to achieve all the stages of real people, I will also write a book about the stage of real people.

 

這本經書絕對不是私底下秘傳的，而是很多人達成的成就，這些達成成就的人所認可的書。
今天我要不是只有達到初級真人階段，我要是有本事把真人階段全部達成，我也會寫一本關於真人階段的書。

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

The fact is that even your article says, that Tantra was incorporated into the Buddhist universities, meaning that it did not originate there

No, Hinduist Tantra did not. VY did. Different teachings. Hinduist Tantra was incorporated to mix with Buddhism and to become the  Buddist VY.

Quote

 

David B. Gray and Thomas Yarnall in their book, “The Cakrasamvara Tantra: The Discourse of Śrī Heruka (Śrīherukābhidhāna)” state that Vajrayana Buddhism was basically a product of Medieval Indian tantrism (referring to the tantric movement).
That this new form of Buddhism was widely influenced by Hindu rituals and rites is no doubt since the two major ritual symbols of Vajrayana Buddhism include a bell and a vajra (weapon used by Indra

https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/culture/vajrayana-saga-buddhist-hindu-ideals

 

 

10 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

Where did they incorporate it from? From the lay mendicant tradition that I described earlier.

How do we know it was from lay mendicants and not  temple priests?  (And of course a mendicant religious practitioner is not lay.) And what exactly did they  practice? VY or  Hinduist tantra?

10 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

The goal of a tradition that has been going on in India and some other places for multiple centuries is for it to subdue local cults in another country?

I dont know if you mean Hinduist tantra or VY? If VY then sure why not? You heard about the chakravartin dogma. Of course if you  claim that VY existed for multiple centuries before Padmasabhava's Vajrayana in Tibet (circa 8th – 9th centuries) then there is no evidence of that.

 

10 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

If you're going to be talking about other traditions, at least read something

i would like to read some sources .people just claim things. nobody provides sources anymore. well, except myself. and wikipedia.

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

As an office worker, I bend my waist for five buckets of rice every day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Five_Pecks_of_Rice

gotcha!

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

Worth a read - if you have the time.

Quote

 

Vajrayana
Very little of the genesis of the elements later known as Mantrayana or
Vajrayana has been adequately explained. Moreover, the extremely
close relationship that this tradition in its maturity had with normative
Mahayana in the monastic setting has been largely ignored.

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/An Introduction to the Standards of Scriptural Authenticity in Indian Buddhism_Davidson.pdf

 

 

[awaken]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Five_Pecks_of_Rice

gotcha!

 

That's not what it means.

The meaning is too different.