Problems with the Foundational Posture in Damo Mitchell's Comprehensive Nei Gong Guide

[NoOne]

So, after the "Magus of Java" turned more into an anime than genuine neikung, I decided to look into Damo Mitchell for getting some beginner exercises/foundation work for neidan/gong/kung.

 

Seems he is liked here on the forums. I'm going through his "Comprehensive Guide to Nei Gong" book. There is a lot of theory; perhaps too much theory. Apart from being long-winded, I had hoped that all that theory was a good sign; unfortunately, I've come to a bit of a snag.

 

I am at chapter 4: preparing the body. Here he speaks of how crucial the correct foundations are for making any progression in neigong:

 

Quote

"The foundations of any art form are, without a doubt, its most important aspect. If we try to build upon poor foundations, then everything we do will eventually collapse."

 

And of those important foundations is "Wuji":

 

Quote

As discussed previously, Wuji can be translated as ‘without projections’; it is a posture that serves as the foundation of our practice, and indeed all systems of Qi Gong should – and generally do – have their own version of the Wuji posture. The Wuji posture should sit at the core of a Qi Gong system, as shown in Figure 4.4. Understanding the nature of Wuji and how it gives birth to the rest of a system is of key importance for our understanding.

 

Quote

The reason that Wuji is so important is that it contains the alignment and internal principle ‘blueprints’ for everything that we do. From the stillness of Wuji are born the movements. The alignments and principles we study in Wuji standing practice should be carried through into all of the other exercises we use; in this way, we could argue that everything we do in a system of Qi Gong practice is nothing more than an extension and abstraction of Wuji’s methods. I want to make this clear as it is an error in any practice of Qi Gong to not understand that Wuji is the key. Know your system’s Wuji, and you know your system. This is why all systems of practice should really begin with standing practice, not moving Qi Gong exercises.

 

So, we can see he really stresses this Wuji posture as very important foundational work.

 

The second part of getting down Wuji posture, after the feet, is getting the knees right. 

 

Quote

The knees are bent so that our centre of gravity can drop down from the upper chest to the lower abdomen; that is all. Over the years, I have heard many odd reasons for bending the knees, some of them based in some kind of logic, whilst others are downright ridiculous! Basically, in order to work with the lower Dan Tian, we need several qualities to be in place. One of the major qualities that we need is our centre of gravity dropped from the chest down to the lower abdominal space. We do this very simply by bending our knees. This means that, in order to find out exactly how high we should be standing in our practice, we need to look to our centre of gravity and make ourselves ‘bottom-heavy’.

 

It would seem the center of gravity is crucial for working the lower Dan tian. And Damo says the key is to bend the knees to lower the center of gravity to the Dan tian, so it may be worked properly.

 

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further. 

 

A simple Google search can show anyone this: https://www.google.com/search?q=center+of+gravity+upright&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA740CA740&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLhtXBi5L8AhVHAjQIHTcqD6gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=890&dpr=1.1

 

Here is a screenshot from the page from Damo's book I am referring to:

 

https://ibb.co/pf1dBMR

 

To write a book as in-depth as Damo's is not so easy; he is clearly a bright guy. But this kind of mistake in part of what is apparently the most important and fundamental aspect of Nei Gong, from which all other progress will derive from, is quite the blunder. 

 

Technically, if we follow Damo's advice we will be shooting our center of gravity away from the lower Dan tian.

 

So, it is now hard for me to know if the rest of the book is worth pursuing/accurate.

 

As neigong protocol seems to be very dependent on meticulous following of procedure, if I am to follow Damo's examples here technically it would seem my entire foundation will be wrong, and as Damo puts it, I won't be able to progress without getting the foundation correct.

 

I don't want to come off as nit-picky, but again, as Damo states, this beginning standing posture seems to be very important to get right:

 

Quote

Wuji posture should sit at the core of a Qi Gong system, as shown in Figure 4.4. Understanding the nature of Wuji and how it gives birth to the rest of a system is of key importance for our understanding.

 

I want to make this clear as it is an error in any practice of Qi Gong to not understand that Wuji is the key. Know your system’s Wuji, and you know your system. This is why all systems of practice should really begin with standing practice, not moving Qi Gong exercises.

 

What are others thoughts on this?

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, NoOne said:

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further.

 

And that’s the reason it’s difficult to learn from books.

It’s not physics - it’s Neigong. 
 

The centre of gravity he’s talking about is more of a felt sense internally - not Newtonian physics.

 

You could even bend your knees and still have this ‘centre of gravity’ up in your chest.

 

Easy to demonstrate in person… clumsy to explain in a book.

 

Quote

I don't want to come off as nit-picky

There’s plenty more you could nit-pick… this is probably the least problematic.

 

If you want to explore his system, probably best to put aside your assumptions temporarily - follow the guidance for a period of time and see for yourself.

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, NoOne said:

 

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further. 

Yeah this took me like a year to get a handle on this haha, and if you actually wanna do any of this stuff it's gonna take larger leaps of logic than this one.  It's a bit intellectually uncomfortable but you're going into a brand new field - there might be some concepts that challenge your understanding of things.

 

Btw I think you've got more than enough irreverence to fit in around here.  Glad you found Damo's book.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

6 hours ago, NoOne said:

What are others thoughts on this?

I think you cannot judge without practicing yourself.

Center of gravity is something you feel. The system of practice works. FAFO!

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, NoOne said:

Seems he is liked here on the forums.

 

Sometimes (often enough) that's a red flag.

[MetaDao]

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Sometimes (often enough) that's a red flag.

My opinion has been made clear. His system works. He has his flaws. He has his red flags.

 

Do you feel a calling for spiritual growth and the deeper teachings of Neidan? I think there are smarter ways to go.

 

There are also much worse ways to go. All in all, he is a decent person and a hell of a teacher. It is good enough for most people. Especially as an entry point.
 

It is unlikely you will ever become one of his very close students though 🤷‍♂️

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[salaam123]

I have that book too. Is that a standalone book? How is one supposed to tread forward in this series? One book after the other?

 

Daoist Nei Gong (6 book series) Paperback Edition (amazon.com)

 

[Wilhelm]

16 minutes ago, salaam123 said:

I have that book too. Is that a standalone book? How is one supposed to tread forward in this series? One book after the other?

 

Daoist Nei Gong (6 book series) Paperback Edition (amazon.com)

The comprehensive guide is an updated version of the Daoist Nei Gong book, and the Dao Yin, Medicine, and Alchemy books cover separate topics

[Wilhelm]

47 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Sometimes (often enough) that's a red flag.

Definitely not a high quality endorsement, being liked on Daobums 😁

[Barnaby]

8 hours ago, NoOne said:

The knees are bent so that our centre of gravity can drop down from the upper chest to the lower abdomen; that is all.

 

I don't study Damo's system, but I have to say I don't understand the definitiveness of this statement.

 

For me, relaxing the knees is as much about sinking, rooting, and establishing an energetic connection between the LDT and the ground.

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Definitely not a high quality endorsement, being liked on Daobums 😁

 

 Definitely not saying Damo is one of them, but it's worth remembering that some of the worst scoundrels in history were absolutely adored by their followers.  Some still are. 

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Definitely not saying Damo is one of them, but it's worth remembering that some of the worst scoundrels in history were absolutely adored by their followers.  Some still are. 

I agree, and I do think anonymous forums in particular have a tendency to raise up certain people without thinking about it too much.  For me - a yellow flag (ceteris paribus).

Edited December 24, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Creation]

9 hours ago, NoOne said:

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further. 

As far as I've been able to determine, the most correct term for someone inclined to physics for what Damo is talking about is "center of elastic tension".

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Don’t try to learn practices from books. If you want to learn them correctly, learn from the teacher directly. 
 

Then you can decide if it’s for you or not. 

[NoOne]

 

16 hours ago, freeform said:

 

And that’s the reason it’s difficult to learn from books.

It’s not physics - it’s Neigong. 
 

The centre of gravity he’s talking about is more of a felt sense internally - not Newtonian physics.

 

You could even bend your knees and still have this ‘centre of gravity’ up in your chest.

 

Easy to demonstrate in person… clumsy to explain in a book.

 

There’s plenty more you could nit-pick… this is probably the least problematic.

 

If you want to explore his system, probably best to put aside your assumptions temporarily - follow the guidance for a period of time and see for yourself.

 

16 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah this took me like a year to get a handle on this haha, and if you actually wanna do any of this stuff it's gonna take larger leaps of logic than this one.  It's a bit intellectually uncomfortable but you're going into a brand new field - there might be some concepts that challenge your understanding of things.

 

Btw I think you've got more than enough irreverence to fit in around here.  Glad you found Damo's book.

 

I had considered this. But the issue is Damo is the type of writer to clarify and explain everything in multiple ways, often in too much details actually.

 

Sometimes he'll even explain a concept and say something like "for all intents and purposes, concept 'x' = explanation 'y'. But technically, concept 'x' actually means 'z' (some very long technical explanation), but really all you need to know is 'y'; knowing 'z' is actually detrimental and complicated, though, in the interest of being thorough I have included it.

 

With this kind of writer, it is very odd that he did not specify the "center of gravity" doesn't actually mean the center of gravity; especially when he seems to be using it as such, given the context and photos/diagrams. Damo is also a Westerner right, and his audience is too.

 

Well, I suppose all that matters is whether it works or not. If it's proper neigong, that's really all I care about.

 

10 hours ago, MetaDao said:

My opinion has been made clear. His system works. He has his flaws. He has his red flags.

 

Do you feel a calling for spiritual growth and the deeper teachings of Neidan? I think there are smarter ways to go.

 

There are also much worse ways to go. All in all, he is a decent person and a hell of a teacher. It is good enough for most people. Especially as an entry point.
 

It is unlikely you will ever become one of his very close students though 🤷‍♂️

 

Can any of those smarter ways be had without a teacher? I'm open to suggestions for learning the basics.

[Master Logray]

18 hours ago, NoOne said:

A simple Google search can show anyone this: https://www.google.com/search?q=center+of+gravity+upright&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA740CA740&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLhtXBi5L8AhVHAjQIHTcqD6gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=890&dpr=1.1

 

 

You click on your own link.  In line 2 and 3 of the search results, there is a man with bread, dark shirt, greenish pants in 2 photos, one standing and one sitting.  This is the idea.   Damo's photos may be more appropriate for martial arts based Neigong.  These days people don't bend the knees so much.  Most do it as in his standing photo.  It is more than sufficient for health or internal developments.  Too much bending would hurt the knees and other problems if you are not very young.

 

Wuji pose is simply a do-nothing pose.  There are more materials elsewhere on the internet.  You can compare and contrast.  The difference would be mainly on the hands.

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

These days people don't bend the knees so much.  Most do it as in his standing photo.  It is more than sufficient for health or internal developments.  Too much bending would hurt the knees and other problems if you are not very young.

Really the knees themselves are of little importance - it’s the kwa that’s of prime importance… the knees will follow the kwa.

 

No sinking into the kwa means that the posture will not assist with sinking the qi (and will in fact ‘assist’ in the opposite direction).

 

When you say ‘most’… most are not interested in qi or sinking or anything internal - just a way to get older people to move their joints so that they don’t clog up the hospitals… CCP have made a grand effort to take all qi out of qigong and make it a gentle form of exercise - that is all.

 

If you’re interested in internal arts, don’t follow “most”  

[Master Logray]

27 minutes ago, freeform said:

Really the knees themselves are of little importance - it’s the kwa that’s of prime importance… the knees will follow the kwa.

 

No sinking into the kwa means that the posture will not assist with sinking the qi (and will in fact ‘assist’ in the opposite direction).

 

When you say ‘most’… most are not interested in qi or sinking or anything internal - just a way to get older people to move their joints so that they don’t clog up the hospitals… CCP have made a grand effort to take all qi out of qigong and make it a gentle form of exercise - that is all.

 

If you’re interested in internal arts, don’t follow “most”  

 

Well I forgot the Kwa.  But is it important?  It is hard to explain by words.   This kind of question is hard to answer.  Don't know the person's age, sex, built, purpose, body background....  So there are options for beginners.

 

To get strength and power, top balance, unable dislodge by others. e.g. Jacky Chan style

 

 

 

Wuji or Wan Yuen Jong

 

Click to choose files

 

 

Modern style

 

 

 

 

Old age style (posture not correct)

 

 

There are many other styles too.

 

 

 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

To get strength and power, top balance, unable dislodge by others. e.g. Jacky Chan style

Yeah - horse stance is helpful for youngsters as it shapes the muscles in a way that emphasises the kwa…

 

Just don’t go too wide - it looks impressive, but disconnects the kwa. (In that image they’ve got it about right).

 

I’ve seen some modern callisthenics people get into horse stance training - but somehow they manage to make it a muscle endurance thing rather than kwa training… I imagine there’s better muscle training for the legs (pistol squats maybe?)

 

In reality once muscles and ligaments realign, it should take only very moderate effort to stay in horse stance… and you could do it for hours without too much muscle strain.

 

However horse stance is still ‘external’ in that it won’t allow for qi to sink. It’s just setting things up well for internal work.

[ChiDragon]

On 12/24/2022 at 3:11 AM, NoOne said:

t would seem the center of gravity is crucial for working the lower Dan tian. And Damo says the key is to bend the knees to lower the center of gravity to the Dan tian, so it may be worked properly.

 

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further.

Yes, I think you are correct, gravity does not change position vertically nor moves up or down.
I think you know physics more than the other.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 3:11 AM, NoOne said:

Technically, if we follow Damo's advice we will be shooting our center of gravity away from the lower Dan tian.

 

So, it is now hard for me to know if the rest of the book is worth pursuing/accurate.

That is a wise thought. The key to the horse stand is not to have the knees pass the toes. So, it won't cause damage and pain to the knees. In any martial arts, with any stance, the knee shall never pass the toes. Especially in Taiji, the knee always follow the pointing direction of the toes. Otherwise, the extraneous twist on the knees will cause server damage and pain to the knee joints.

There were many people who wants to learn Taiji without proper guidance. In changing the position of the postures, they only move the knees instead of moving both the feet and knees at the same time. There was a Honk Kong movie star wants to learn Taiji real fast for a movie. He ended up quitting the practice due to the permanent damage to the knees. Also, he lose the contract of the movie.

P.S.
In Zhan Zhuang, the 90 degree bend on the knees is considered to be the highest realm has been reached in the practice.

Edited December 25, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

On 12/25/2022 at 6:06 AM, Wilhelm said:

Definitely not a high quality endorsement, being liked on Daobums 😁

 

  but    ...    but  .... my little treasure chest where I keep all my Daobum 'likes'  ....  what will become of that ?

 

 

[searcher7977]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

Yeah - horse stance is helpful for youngsters as it shapes the muscles in a way that emphasises the kwa…

 

Just don’t go too wide - it looks impressive, but disconnects the kwa. (In that image they’ve got it about right).

 

I’ve seen some modern callisthenics people get into horse stance training - but somehow they manage to make it a muscle endurance thing rather than kwa training… I imagine there’s better muscle training for the legs (pistol squats maybe?)

 

In reality once muscles and ligaments realign, it should take only very moderate effort to stay in horse stance… and you could do it for hours without too much muscle strain.

 

However horse stance is still ‘external’ in that it won’t allow for qi to sink. It’s just setting things up well for internal work.

 

Freeform, could you say a bit more about realigning the muscles and ligaments during horse stance? Does this happen with other postures as well? Is this also an energetic thing, or purely physical WRT stretching and biomechanical position? Or perhaps a resource? This is the first I have heard of such things, and I'd like to learn more.

[Nungali]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:11 PM, NoOne said:

So, after the "Magus of Java" turned more into an anime than genuine neikung, I decided to look into Damo Mitchell for getting some beginner exercises/foundation work for neidan/gong/kung.

 

Seems he is liked here on the forums. I'm going through his "Comprehensive Guide to Nei Gong" book. There is a lot of theory; perhaps too much theory. Apart from being long-winded, I had hoped that all that theory was a good sign; unfortunately, I've come to a bit of a snag.

 

I am at chapter 4: preparing the body. Here he speaks of how crucial the correct foundations are for making any progression in neigong:

 

 

And of those important foundations is "Wuji":

 

 

 

So, we can see he really stresses this Wuji posture as very important foundational work.

 

The second part of getting down Wuji posture, after the feet, is getting the knees right. 

 

 

It would seem the center of gravity is crucial for working the lower Dan tian. And Damo says the key is to bend the knees to lower the center of gravity to the Dan tian, so it may be worked properly.

 

Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further. 

 

A simple Google search can show anyone this: https://www.google.com/search?q=center+of+gravity+upright&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA740CA740&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLhtXBi5L8AhVHAjQIHTcqD6gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=890&dpr=1.1

 

Here is a screenshot from the page from Damo's book I am referring to:

 

https://ibb.co/pf1dBMR

 

To write a book as in-depth as Damo's is not so easy; he is clearly a bright guy. But this kind of mistake in part of what is apparently the most important and fundamental aspect of Nei Gong, from which all other progress will derive from, is quite the blunder. 

 

Technically, if we follow Damo's advice we will be shooting our center of gravity away from the lower Dan tian.

 

So, it is now hard for me to know if the rest of the book is worth pursuing/accurate.

 

As neigong protocol seems to be very dependent on meticulous following of procedure, if I am to follow Damo's examples here technically it would seem my entire foundation will be wrong, and as Damo puts it, I won't be able to progress without getting the foundation correct.

 

I don't want to come off as nit-picky, but again, as Damo states, this beginning standing posture seems to be very important to get right:

 

 

What are others thoughts on this?

 

 

To me , who does NOT practice this stuff ( thought I would make that clear ) it seems like a mistake and a blunder . Even if he meant something else , its still a mistake and a blunder in terminology, and that causes confusions, doubts etc .

 

Here is my take on it , from outside and from a totally different system and approach .  One needs to concentrate energy into the LTD ( I'll use my familiar term 'hara' ) to be able to project ki and maintain your central pivot / placement in the Universe . But  concentration of ki in hara and projection and  circulation of ki are only two of the principles .  The other 2 essential ones  ( making 4 and relating to the 4 elements ) are  'sinking' and 'no mind' .  'Sinking' or 'making weight underside ' is not a physical thing , its a visualization , tricky enough for the beginner  while sitting or  standing still in a posture. It is a lot harder to maintain when moving , especially dynamically  and when engaging with another as all the underside surfaces are constantly shifting  .

 

Eg.  The 'keeping weight underside' or 'sinking weight' visualizations go like this : hold your arm out and imagine all the weight has sunk to the underside of it ....  the top is heavier than the bottom  ( yes, that makes no rational sense  ) .  Now imagine this all through your body on every 'underside ' ; under your chin , the soles of your feet ,  the underside of your nose - but not the top ... and so on . Now just with the arm visualization , move your arm vertically straight up, there is no underside . Rotate your arm while horizontal, the underside rotates as does the 'weight' - a very tricky visualization when moving dynamically . The weird thing is, it makes you incredibly stable  and powerful ... even, from a standing or sitting posture , virtually immovable  ( when balanced with the other 3 principles  )  - some have probably seen the films of aikido guys doing that , two either side of another lifting  him up, or rather, not lifting him up .

 

But non of this is physical  .  The other issue is  where we 'unconsciously' visualize where our power is centered ; for many men it is high in the body around the chest area , that is certainly above the center of gravity and will  make you unstable . In teaching I was constantly thinking up ways to get people , mostly men, to lower their center of , not gravity, but 'unconscious power center '.  I found usually women did not have trouble with that . It seemed sort of natural to many of them .

 

The strange thing is , it can have a physical result !   I put on an intro class at a festival we had here many years back .  To my surprise about 40 people turned up - yikes ! I was expecting about 4 .  How do I even start all this ... I decided to risk starting and intro with a blind experiment ; picked  two of the toughest looking big  muscly guys and the smallest slimmest woman  out . Told her to be strong and resist with all her might and told the guys to take her by the arms and lift her .... up she went .  Then I got her to do the four visualizations , signaled the guys to lift again the same way, thinking I would ask them after if they noticed a difference , but she didnt go up !  So they got a bit more serious and tried harder ... nope .  You could see the strain on their faces and their muscles bulging and you see she was relaxed and not fighting it .  I have seen this before and it can be explained by physics and opposing forces  . But the they tried harder  and  she went up, with her feet just an inch or so off the ground , but they could not get her further than that , and then you could really see the effort and strain on them .. and so could the whole group . Then because they where using force and straining, although she was not going up she started moving from side to side and around a bit , like she was on a slippery surface , this sensation surprised her ( I think she thought she was still on the ground ) so she opened her eyes , realised what was going on, got startled , lost it and ... up she went .

 

Anyway, I would say it isnt about sinking your center of gravity its about 2 things ; lowering your imagined  'center of power generation ' - stop beatin' your chests like gorillas guys ! - which is NOT physical  and the knees bent stance thing ... connection to earth and use of 'anchored gravity' , etc , which is physical . I won't go on about that as  good stuff has been written about it in above posts .

 

 

 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

  but    ...    but  .... my little treasure chest where I keep all my Daobum 'likes'  ....  what will become of that ?

 

 

Maybe the same thing that'll become of my (much less substantial) chest, friend  

Edited December 26, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

11 hours ago, searcher7977 said:

 

Freeform, could you say a bit more about realigning the muscles and ligaments during horse stance? Does this happen with other postures as well? Is this also an energetic thing, or purely physical WRT stretching and biomechanical position? Or perhaps a resource? This is the first I have heard of such things, and I'd like to learn more.

I’m not a martial arts expert at all. One of my teachers did teach some gong fu and Taiji - but I did it more as exercise (and to ‘prove myself’) than to actually get good at gong fu…

 

From what I understood - pretty much all ‘forms’ are basically building specific shapes in your structure - muscles and ligaments…

 

Its like you make the muscles strong in certain shapes… you make the tendons engage in a certain way during forms practice… but during actual sparring - it looks nothing like forms, because they’re just using the shapes and strength from the forms in a more natural fighting style.

 

You don’t tend to pull out these big wide stances in actual combat at all.

 

Oh and it’s worth mentioning that these days a lot of these forms have been adapted by many to ‘look cool’ - bigger, wider, more flexible/acrobatic - negating the original purpose.

 

Have a look in the image above at the Ma Bu (horse stance) - this is the modern wushu version with thighs parallel to the ground.

 

Theres similar concepts with movement too… for instance in sparring combat, you would not be throwing a punch from your waist height with your legs in a wide gong bu.

 

 

But repeating these forms thousands of times builds their mechanics into the body in such a way that for example you’d naturally start to use the power from the ground through the hip up to the fist - even when in a much smaller, more ‘natural’ fighting stance.

 

Generally stance training builds postural muscles/soft tissues - and moving forms build the explosive, or ‘movement‘ muscles and tissues.