Morality

[steve]

道德經: 天地不仁，以萬物為芻狗；聖人不仁，以百姓為芻狗。天地之間，其猶橐籥乎？虛而不屈，動而愈出。多言數窮，不如守中。
		(The use of emptiness) Heaven and earth do not act from (the impulse of) any wish to be benevolent; they deal with all things as the dogs of grass [sic. straw dogs] are dealt with. The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent; they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with. May not the space between heaven and earth be compared to a bellows? 'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more. Much speech to swift exhaustion lead we see; Your inner being guard, and keep it free.

 

 

...English translation by James Legge

from Dao De Jing chapter 5 

source: https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

[Cobie]

 

@steve Thanks for your post, much appreciated.
 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited June 29, 2023 by Cobie

[steve]

34 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

@steve Thanks for your post, much appreciated. However, it does not quite answer my question.

 

I moved my post to 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53797-off-topic/?do=findComment&comment=986829 

 

 

I responded there for anyone interested.

[steve]

21 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@helpfuldemon Do you prefer to be ‘right’ or to be ‘happy’?

 

 

 

As they were growing up, I would sometimes ask my children (and myself) to consider the question - 

would you prefer to be rich or happy? The knee jerk response is often 'rich' but it takes little research to demonstrate that wealth does not equal happiness. I think being right is similar...

[liminal_luke]

I've always wanted to be right, rich and happy.  That hasn't happened for me but I guess one out of three ain't bad.

[steve]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

I've always wanted to be right, rich and happy.  That hasn't happened for me but I guess one out of three ain't bad.

 

So???

Don't keep us hanging... which is it?

[liminal_luke]

12 minutes ago, steve said:

 

So???

Don't keep us hanging... which is it?

 

Ah, but I've just got back from my first meeting of Oversharers Anonymous and am trying to be good.

 

On a more honest note, I'd say I'm righter than some, not as right as others; richer than some, not as rich as others; happier than some, not as happy as others.  Living my life in the gray middle zone like your average Bum.

Edited July 16, 2022 by liminal_luke

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

You keep ignoring the facts. Your impressions are not necessarily objective facts, and particularly not if you had hallucinations too. Further Zhongyongdaoist mentioned the presence of (primitive) morality in the animal world and I did several times too but you stubbornly keep ignoring this because it doesn't fit your pessimistic worldview. Finally even if I would get depressed when I had to endure what you endure than that still wouldn't prove anything as to the correctness of your interpretation of your experiences. But I hope someone else's comments will be of more use to you than mine. Goodbye.  

How can you say my interpretations of my experiences are incorrect?  I know that what occurred may not be what I think, but if it makes me feel shitty, it makes me feel shitty.

[Cobie]

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[Cobie]

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[helpfuldemon]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 
Indubitably so, that much is crystal clear. Do you have anyone IRL to support you a bit in this? 

Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done for me.  I talk about my pain and my confusion but it doesn't help that much.  I started coming to esoteric forums because I was given the word "Aiwass" and that led me to the occult, and I had hoped to find answers from people.  Lately it has become a place for me to vent my ideas and suffering.  I have this deep pain that nothing seems to satisfy.  I'm trapped by the consequences of what occurred to me and I can find little peace in understanding.  

[Cobie]

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[Cobie]

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[helpfuldemon]

A simple google of Aiwass will tell you what you need to know.

 

Anyway, my point was, and I probably shouldn't have used the animal world to back it up, seems it pissed some people off, but; my point was that I don't believe God plays by rules.  I don't believe God is benevolent.  I don't believe God loves us all.  I don't believe that anything is off the table when it comes to what God will and can do.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ah, but I've just got back from my first meeting of Oversharers Anonymous and am trying to be good.

 

On a more honest note, I'd say I'm righter than some, not as right as others; richer than some, not as rich as others; happier than some, not as happy as others.  Living my life in the gray middle zone like your average Bum.

 

I am similar, except I am more to the left  ... but not as left as some others.

 

I am as happy as I want to be  .... any happier  and  'The Universe'   might knock me down a peg or two    . 

 

-   which is why it's important to bitch about things occasionally     

 

 

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Edited July 16, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

How can you say my interpretations of my experiences are incorrect?  I know that what occurred may not be what I think, but if it makes me feel shitty, it makes me feel shitty.

 

Thats a good starting point .

 

Your shitty feelings ARE acknowledged .  And now, since " I know that what occurred may not be what I think", you can look at OTHER causes for those feelings .

 

IE, its not your FEELINGS that are questioned, its the root cause that is in question .

 

and I dont mean 'in question' by us ... I mean in question by yourself , ie  " I know that what occurred may not be what I think ."

 

Feelings can be strong and overpowering, so much so that sometimes the mind struggles with it and searches in all sorts of places for a CAUSE , when it finds one, it can remain stubbornly insistent about that cause .

[steve]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

Another forum I know has a special section in which only supportive replies are allowed. Is there something like this on this forum?  

 

 

 

Not specifically but I think it's an excellent idea.

 

I've tagged @Trunk, @ilumairen, @dwai, and @zerostao and would be happy to create something like that if the admin/mod team approve. My thought would be to put it as a subforum in General Discussion or Healing Circle. We could make it a standard public forum or consider making it limited access by request only so that it is not searchable, similar to Current Events and gender specific forums, that way anyone not following the guidelines could be excluded without being otherwise penalized. I'll defer to the current management team but happy to help in any way on this. 

 

[helpfuldemon]

When I say that I may not understand what happened to me, that it might have a different reason, that isn't to say that I don't believe a God did this to me, it is to say that there might be something beneficial about it.  I've heard of Saints being tortured.  It doesn't make any sense though, and from the looks of things, this has been nothing but destructive for me.

[helpfuldemon]

There is no Divine Morality:  that means man and animal will do what they desire to do.  That means that abortion will happen, murder will happen, theft will happen.  These are our natural laws.  This doesn't mean we shouldn't enact laws of moral virtue, it means that those laws go against our nature.  Do these restrictions lead to the diseases of the mind?  I don't know.  Crowley would say so.  This is the rule of Chaos and Chaos Magick.  If you are on the side of Order, that is tricky, for moral choices vary depending upon culture.  In order to establish strong morals, one needs to establish a value of rule.  That is why I came up with: do not harm another persons health, wealth, or liberty, and should you do so, they are free to harm yours in order to punish you for breaking this law.  This is what the West loosley claims to uphold.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

There is no Divine Morality:  that means man and animal will do what they desire to do. 

 

No, there is not divine morality but there is a  'higher' human morality relating to the culture and societies we live in .  Some find that hard to adhere to just because  its for the better ordering of that culture and society, so the 'belief was instructed ' that this was from a divine source, to try and get people 'more interested ' in adhering to those morals .

 

And that means man will follow that , or not , and do what his desires lead him to do .  It might help to look at where those desires come from as well .

 

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

That means that abortion will happen, murder will happen, theft will happen.  These are our natural laws.

 

No ... its not a 'natural law' that murders and theft happen , actually, in more natural societies , such 'infractions' happen on a much much more lesser scale .

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

  This doesn't mean we shouldn't enact laws of moral virtue, it means that those laws go against our nature. 

 

No, they go against our 'Id' which is only PART of our nature .   People do have a nature to not kill and steal and to look after and care for each other as well -  have you never experienced that ? Its in the animal world as well .

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

Do these restrictions lead to the diseases of the mind?  I don't know.  Crowley would say so. 

 

I think restricting the natural leads to disease -  but I do not see 'the natural' as  common crimes in society .  Crowley was mostly concerned with getting rid of the restrictions placed on people by Victorian society ... most of that  finished during the 60s during the sexual revolution.

 

Regarding crimes like theft and murder Crowley wrote fairly extensively on the problem there : what if it is someone's will to kill and steal ? That could be seen ( in his system) as  quiet the philosophical conundrum !   His solution ? Pretty much with what you came with below ( the bit I high lighted ) .

 

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

This is the rule of Chaos and Chaos Magick.  If you are on the side of Order, that is tricky, for moral choices vary depending upon culture.  In order to establish strong morals, one needs to establish a value of rule.  That is why I came up with: do not harm another persons health, wealth, or liberty, and should you do so, they are free to harm yours in order to punish you for breaking this law.  This is what the West loosley claims to uphold.

 

Except it isnt a matter of them 'being free to ' do shit to you ( although I am sure some see it like that  )  ... its more a matter of  'philosophy' or as Crowley said  ' What about everyone else's will to NOT be robbed and retain property and ownership ? '  So, he chose the magical explanation ;  If you choose to take another's property or life , then you have magically declared you do not honor  those principles , therefore they do not apply to you - you mighty have forfeited your own right to freedom, possessions and even your own life .  

[helpfuldemon]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

No, there is not divine morality but there is a  'higher' human morality relating to the culture and societies we live in .  Some find that hard to adhere to just because  its for the better ordering of that culture and society, so the 'belief was instructed ' that this was from a divine source, to try and get people 'more interested ' in adhering to those morals .

 

And that means man will follow that , or not , and do what his desires lead him to do .  It might help to look at where those desires come from as well .

 

 

 

No ... its not a 'natural law' that murders and theft happen , actually, in more natural societies , such 'infractions' happen on a much much more lesser scale .

 

 

No, they go against our 'Id' which is only PART of our nature .   People do have a nature to not kill and steal and to look after and care for each other as well -  have you never experienced that ? Its in the animal world as well .

 

 

 

It IS Natural law to kill and steal, and it IS natural law to choose not to, except that our first inclination is the former, until we are trained to do otherwise.  The "higher morality" is simply mankind thinking it through, and that is what separates us from animals; the fact that we can think things through, and control our instincts.  Is this some God-given power?  I would like to think that a God with a mind can do these things, but my experience tells me that God doesn't particularly honor this idea.  How did humans evolve past the animal?  Who can say.  The fact is that we can, and do, but also, do not.