Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[natural]

As far as it goes I would rather eat with crows, rather than most of this crowd.

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"Something about damned by faint praise seems applicable"....I'm not familiar with that one?

Look it up...

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I always find 'ego' discussions to be a little confused.  Most (and probably all) spiritual systems will tell you to clean your act up before you start - deal with your self and relationships - and most of the cleaning up is about reducing self-clinging.  Essentially - be a better person by being kinder, nicer, less attached to your own needs and wants.  But being 'sorted' in this way doesn't mean you are less of an ego - actually you might be stronger egoically in some senses.  I've noticed for instance a huge difference between westerners who take up Buddhism and Tibetans.  Tibetans get stronger, more open, happier and full of personality.  While westerners seem to try to diminish, become pale and apologetic.  Neither in my view has removed ego but rather have either used it for themselves or against themselves.  I think this essentially resolves down to a conceptual problem.

 

The other layer to this is the non-dual subject/object distinction which is you could say another story.

 

We could say that our nature in terms of the dualistic world is double.  That we have a manifest being, a body and mind, which is specific and 'physical' - and we also have a pure self, a soul if you like which is intangible (ordinarily).  The problem lies in that contained between these two is a host of energetic entanglements, emotional baggage, cloudy obstructions and the like - even what one might call parasitic entities which exhibit in things like addictive thoughts and activity.  It is very hard to see clearly through this, we might say we have spiritual cataracts which make it hard to see what is what.  

 

What we do about this, how we approach it, is the issue.  Do we just say that all this material is illusory and to let it go? 
 

 

Illusory is a problematic word I think. The egoic structure is maybe unnecessary more than illusory, it does exist on the mental level but it needn’t exist. Illusory allows people to leap to the conclusion that it is not actually there, which does no dismantling of the egoic structure. 

 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

Or do we deal with it in some way by looking at it's nature, seeing what it is, transforming it or clearing it out?  Even if we answer this question in the positive it is still not particularly easy to see what to do. 
 

 

It isn’t easy to do, agreed. I posted a blog earlier which suggested marinating in a feeling, and another phrase is “Radical Acceptance”, this is from a Buddhist perspective here. The author is focusing on radically accepting desire, but I think that can be more generalised to fear, shame, and any other feelings likely to have been divorced from prematurely from a young age. I have always done a two stage process, at first driven by what material was produced to work on via my dreams, now more on what comes up in daily life - understand the issue mentally and then let that go and feel the feeling with no mental interference. Treating each thing as a complex is ineffective IMO. It’s interesting to me that where nonduality wants to see everything as a whole, actually working on the egoic structure is facilitated more by dissecting it into parts. 

 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

For instance sometimes struggling with a problem, like a fish caught in a net, makes it worse.  Sometimes leaving a problem be just lets it fester and grow.  The implication then, is that we have to grow all our talents, vary our approach as each obstacle arises and learn how to negotiate different situations in different ways.

 

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, natural said:

As far as it goes I would rather eat with crows, rather than most of this crowd.

Look it up...

 

ah, I hear the definition to be a  type of sarcasm....

 

for instance when some one says something like, "you think so" and not really meaning it, thus in a condescending way. 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

 ....

I'd say the Lady can very easily speak for herself.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 In case you dont get the humour ; 

 

I am glad you said that for her  . 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Precisely what I've been waiting for... Manitou's reply. And what compelled you to be rude when the question is of no concern of yours?

 

Lack of breakfast ?

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Lack of breakfast ?

 

my doctor said I'm low on vitamin D, maybe that's it?

[manitou]

6 hours ago, C T said:

 

Is there any particular part of your post that you feel necessitated an apology? 

Certainly you're not apologising for being expressive? Sure hope not. 

 

 

 

No.  It was actually a little tongue in cheek, although apparently either my tongue or my cheek was a little too dry.  I was actually being a little oblique.  If I had been as direct as I wanted to be, I would have written it directly to 3Bob

 

I love your nose, by the way 

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

so Mark are you going to cook the rest of us a virtual breakfast, from the picture it looks like you are qualified to do so?     (and how about some blueberry scones to go with?)

 

Just for you, old3bob!

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

"Something about damned by faint praise seems applicable"....I'm not familiar with that one?
 

 

Old3bob, bless his heart...

[old3bob]

27 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Just for you, old3bob!

 

Far out man! and thanks.

[steve]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

so again we have that 4 letter word of "illusion" pop up,  btw where is real illusion?

One example of real illusion is a dogma we latch onto that blocks us from seeing and hearing the voice of Truth because it doesn’t speak in words that meet our expectations. There is a Tibetan saying that when life makes us hard, the Dharma is medicine that can soften us. When Dharma hardens us there is little that can help. 

[steve]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

It’s interesting to me that where nonduality wants to see everything as a whole, actually working on the egoic structure is facilitated more by dissecting it into parts. 

 

In my experience with non-dual teachings there is never an instruction or even a suggestion to see things as a whole. If there is a desire to do that, it is an error, a distraction. It is always a process of encountering and being with each part as it presents itself, fully and nakedly. Wholeness manifests spontaneously and can never be found with intention.

[old3bob]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

One example of real illusion is a dogma we latch onto that blocks us from seeing and hearing the voice of Truth because it doesn’t speak in words that meet our expectations. There is a Tibetan saying that when life makes us hard, the Dharma is medicine that can soften us. When Dharma hardens us there is little that can help. 

 

hmm,  ah, well, Om...

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Patanjali’s way is the 8-fold one. Yama, Niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dhyana culminating into samadhi.

 

 

The eight limbs of yoga are yama (abstinences), niyama (observances), asana (yoga postures), pranayama (breath control), pratyahara (withdrawal of the senses), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (absorption).

(Wikipedia, Ashtanga [eight limbs of yoga])

 

 

Samadhi is of two kinds, Samprajnata Samadhi, with support of an object of meditation, and Asamprajnata Samadhi, without support of an object of meditation.

... Asamprajnata Samadhi, also called Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Nirbija Samadhi, is meditation without an object, which leads to knowledge of purusha or consciousness, the subtlest element.

(Ibid)

 

 

How ya gonna keep 'em, down on the farm, after they've seen Paree...

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

No.  It was actually a little tongue in cheek, although apparently either my tongue or my cheek was a little too dry.  I was actually being a little oblique.  If I had been as direct as I wanted to be, I would have written it directly to 3Bob

 

I love your nose, by the way 

 

more power to women's obliques, which happen to be dualistic...

Edited June 20, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

In my experience with non-dual teachings there is never an instruction or even a suggestion to see things as a whole. If there is a desire to do that, it is an error, a distraction. It is always a process of encountering and being with each part as it presents itself, fully and nakedly. Wholeness manifests spontaneously and can never be found with intention.

 

Sure not the desire to see things as whole but the accomplishment of seeing things as whole, if you say it often enough I'll get it  But I also feel that different nondualists come at it in different ways, I think some are actively trying to see in a nondual way, and its that view that I'm most often referring to. The plastic nondualists perhaps. Does your tradition encourage actively separating things out though in the pursuit of wholeness? I posit separating mental and emotional streams as an efficient way of deconstructing ego clinging, I haven't really seen this approach in any 'spiritual' philosophy or path, not that I know of at least, the opposite is true more often, emotions and thoughts are illusory, don't engage with them. 

[C T]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

hey guy, fyi it was you who started with the interjection so don't lecture at me for doing so.

 

Since when is asking someone for feedback an interjection? I don't remember engaging you, or even remotely suggesting your involvement in the question. 

 

Tinge of guilt, perhaps? 

Maybe time for some introspection now that you've had your fill of self importance. Breakfast included. 

[steve]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Sure not the desire to see things as whole but the accomplishment of seeing things as whole, if you say it often enough I'll get it  But I also feel that different nondualists come at it in different ways, I think some are actively trying to see in a nondual way, and its that view that I'm most often referring to. The plastic nondualists perhaps. Does your tradition encourage actively separating things out though in the pursuit of wholeness? I posit separating mental and emotional streams as an efficient way of deconstructing ego clinging, I haven't really seen this approach in any 'spiritual' philosophy or path, not that I know of at least, the opposite is true more often, emotions and thoughts are illusory, don't engage with them. 

 

I can’t speak to what non-traditional approaches people may take other than to say I do think tradition and lineage are instrumental in preventing deviation and errors when it comes to esoteric paths - non-dual, subtle body, or otherwise. We can blaze our own paths but, as you point out that can be fraught with obstacles and complications, many of which can be avoided or ameliorated with expert guidance.

 

I’ll reiterate, it’s a mistaken assumption to think of non-dual traditions as advocating the pursuit of wholeness. That’s simply not it at all, at least not on the path I’m familiar with, it’s far more subtle and sophisticated than that. My tradition advocates investigating directly and non-conceptually our present condition, what is actually going on for us in this and every moment. It does not teach us to separate things into categories and create conceptual distinctions like this is emotion and that is mental. It does not put a non-dual objective somewhere out there that we work toward. It does not tell us that emotions and thoughts are illusory and to be avoided in any way. We work with and toward our self, through that emotion and thought, through whatever we are experiencing, directly and without conceptual elaboration. One of the deepest teachings says that to see our experiences as deficient (that would include illusory) is an error, it’s just another conceptual elaboration.

 

Ultimately our practice brings us into a deeper and more direct connection with our natural and uncontrived condition, as it is. And yes, non-dual realization is one characteristic of what is discovered  but even that is nothing more than an adjective pointing to one facet of a multifaceted diamond. The primary teaching is that nothing is lacking or excluded,  not our mundane experience, not our subtle body, everything is spontaneously perfected in that connection. 

[C T]

There may well be a few individuated conceptual interpretations of the term 'wholeness', but from a Vajrayana/Dzogchen perspective, where some teachers have spoken, there's been mention of wholeness as synonymous with, or likened to, a natural, unforced, effortless ease with which one remains in a state beyond concept. Often they will say things like "Suffuse your whole being with the sky" or "Ease into perfected wholeness by resting one's mind in the vast expanse of dharmata", etc. Of course its possible this may turn into yet another conceptual exercise.... no surprise there

 

As a preventative antidote, practitioners are encouraged to direct attention more to cognise post-practice gaps that appear, and rest in these moments repeatedly, regardless of the length of time the presence of these gaps may remain. These gaps are intrinsic to every sentient being in every single moment, but their perception, recognition, and ability to draw on its benefit vary drastically. Among the six classes of beings, only humans are endowed with the potential (to recognize). Its been said that in that moment of seeing, one is a buddha. 

 

Correct practice is meant to develop, enhance and lengthen their palpability. Intimating these brief moments of nondescript, unadorned presence is like coming to recognize the real nature of a mirror and its essence, likened to at last seeing one's real face in Zen, rather than remaining habitually distracted, confused and limited by one aspect of its function, which is to reflect. Some will assume that such distractions are necessary; others will find justifications that if they could somehow undistort the images individually as and when they arise, then they are on the path to spiritual transcendence. Its a game many are prone towards playing because doing so gives one a sense of usefulness and progress. 

 

[liminal_luke]

I'm wondering about this seeming dichotomy between subtle body work (and not so subtle body work) and nondual realization.  Doesn't the one support the other?  Although the nondual view is likely available to all, perhaps especially to those on their deathbeds, I believe good health -- in all of our various bodies, physical and otherwise -- can set the stage.  In this sense, all the things we might do to open our meridians, purify our physical selves, and lessen emotional reactivity might be seen as stepping stones to awakening. Conversely, nondual awakening can, at least on occasion, bring with it physical and subtle body health and new abilities.  Some of us value (non)accomplishments in absolute reality, while others prefer to go after real (but illusory?) accomplishments in the relative world.  Still, the chocolate has long been mixed with the peanut butter and anybody who eats enough is likely to get a bit of both.

Edited June 20, 2022 by liminal_luke

[steve]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Doesn't the one support the other? 

 

For me they go hand in hand. I begin nearly every formal practice session with prayer and subtle body work. Informal practice is different, by necessity. Similarly I do my best to engage in prayer and subtle body practices from the natural state. I would say it’s a very rare dzogchenpa who does not take advantage of all tools available at every stage of the path. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm wondering about this seeming dichotomy between subtle body work (and not so subtle body work) and nondual realization.  Doesn't the one support the other?  Although the nondual view is likely available to all, perhaps especially to those on their deathbeds, I believe good health -- in all of our various bodies, physical and otherwise -- can set the stage.  In this sense, all the things we might do to open our meridians, purify our physical selves, and lessen emotional reactivity might be seen as stepping stones to awakening. Conversely, nondual awakening can, at least on occasion, bring with it physical and subtle body health and new abilities.  Some of us value (non)accomplishments in absolute reality, while others prefer to go after real (but illusory?) accomplishments in the relative world.  Still, the chocolate has long been mixed with the peanut butter and anybody who eats enough is likely to get a bit of both.

 

also sounds like, "unity in diversity" 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm wondering about this seeming dichotomy between subtle body work (and not so subtle body work) and nondual realization.  Doesn't the one support the other?  Although the nondual view is likely available to all, perhaps especially to those on their deathbeds, I believe good health -- in all of our various bodies, physical and otherwise -- can set the stage.  In this sense, all the things we might do to open our meridians, purify our physical selves, and lessen emotional reactivity might be seen as stepping stones to awakening. Conversely, nondual awakening can, at least on occasion, bring with it physical and subtle body health and new abilities. 
 

 

I thought absolutely nothing changes in nondual awakening other than nondual perspective or realisation or whatever it’s termed???

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Some of us value (non)accomplishments in absolute reality, while others prefer to go after real (but illusory?) accomplishments in the relative world.  Still, the chocolate has long been mixed with the peanut butter and anybody who eats enough is likely to get a bit of both.

 

[steve]

30 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

also sounds like, "unity in diversity" 

 

This reminds me of the Six Vajra Verses which summarize the view, path, and fruition of dzogchen.

 

Spoiler

[liminal_luke]

23 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I thought absolutely nothing changes in nondual awakening other than nondual perspective or realisation or whatever it’s termed???

 

 

Not having experienced nondual awakening, it's possible that I'm not the best person to speak to this question but this is the Bums and I love to speculate.  I'm guessing that a great deal can change when the nondual perspective is stabilized: shifted perceptions leading to shifted psychology leading, at times, to shifted physiology.  I'm struck, for instance, by the easy, accepting way some Bums who I believe have experienced nondual awakening have dealt with challenges in their lives (memory loss, chronic pain).

Edited June 20, 2022 by liminal_luke