Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[manitou]

Yes, my Depends.  They only have 3

 

[silent thunder]

The notion of being seperate seems linked inexorably to our upbringing and our language structure.

English language requires verbs to be created by nouns.

the boy runs

the leaf falls

 

yet in my experience there are no nouns

only verbs

 

This falsehood perpetuates in our speaking and thinking mind.

And our culture worships only the speaking mind, which is celebrated as the real.

All else is rejected as fanciful, or woo in this most wooden of materialist misidentifications.

 

 

Nothing is static.  There are no nouns in reality.  Only verbs, verbing reality, beyond thought and word.

 

Nouns are a convention of mentation.  A symbolizing of conceptualization into a mentation object.

It is storytelling.

 

There is another layer of foundational thought that impregnates Westerners in particular with a heavy sense of seperation.  The leftover conceptualization of the universe and our world as a great clock work.  The bible describes the clay vessel into which the animating force of God blows life.

 

This is an unnatural way of seeing life to me.

 

I am not an alien presence, forced into the material structure of life from somewhere else.

 

i grew out of this world, i did not get brought into it.

Like leaves on a tree or grapes on a vine.

i grew out of this world, innately part of all of it.

 

what is there to be seperated?

mentation, symbolic concepts.

 

but reality is one flowing of which we are all many aspects of one process.

many facets of one gem

 

Indra's Net

Edited May 25, 2022 by silent thunder

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

My experience is a little different than some of what I’ve read here, fwiw.
 

 

It’s worth a lot  

 

Quote

 

There are no shortcuts to nonduality, it is always there whether we are aware or not and our recognition of it simply happens… or not. Nothing we can do, or not do, will reliably bring us to this realization that I am aware of. It is more a gift, or for a rare few perhaps a curse, than an achievement of any kind. I do think it is supported by resting and relaxing into the present moment as opposed to thinking and analyzing.

 

I’m not sure how useful it is to imagine the koshas as a stepwise process as there is no meaningful boundary or gatekeeper that insures we complete our “work” with one before addressing another. I could be wrong in this of course.
 

 

I refer to the kosha model because it is a good fit for my dream of the vine and the structure as the self/Self and the koshas below.

 

Spoiler

In my dream I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I just walked away. When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place. 

 

But I also relate to energy and the channels as described in the Indian tradition, and there are actual points when a meaningful boundary or gatekeeper is passed, such as when the doors between ida and pingala are opened, or when the central channel is consciously entered. Passing these boundaries allows the subtle energy body to flow in ways that were previously blocked, one boundary at a time, and as far as I can understand this is the underlying structure of what we perceive as the koshas. 

 

Quote

Our personal approach can certainly be in stages but in reality I think we are always working at multiple levels simultaneously, perhaps emphasizing one or another.

 

Nondual realization does not prevent us from continuing to examine and develop ourselves. In some ways it has enhanced my process of self examination and personal growth. For some the impetuous to do just that disappears. It was like that for me for a while but in continuing to live in relationship to others there came an insight that I could do so much more with this perspective than simply rest on my laurels. It led me to connect with a wonderful teacher and spiritual lineage and community and has enriched my life both personally and professionally.

 

All of the above is just my experience, every one of us is different. While there is a lot of talk about “no self” and so forth, that is not my experience. Even in the midst of powerful nondual experiences there is still this body and mind that I am connected to until death. It can be extremely subtle, approaching the limit of dissolution, but I believe there is always at least a tiny bit of personal perspective there in this human life, even in the rapture of nondual awakening, the clear light of deep sleep and the open restfulness of samadhi. The self is still always there if I’m brutally honest and carefully observant. 
 

 

This is the dynamic I wish to perceive and grapple with ultimately, the tiny bit of personal perspective that’s left, this is what I’m so carefully working towards. Thing is I don’t think it’s actually tiny, I think it is actually massive, just almost invisible, I take my cue from the vine trunk wrapped around the post, the post is almost indistinguishable from the vine, so it would be easy to kid oneself that there is already no post, and this is far from the truth. 
 

I suspect I am in ‘hunt it down’ mode, I want to see it so I can do something about it, and I need the right ‘spiritual’ tools to be able to do that, and I need to know when to grapple with it, and when to walk away. The wrong action at the wrong time won’t get the job done. 

 

Quote

It is simply a matter of knowing and experiencing that this self does not limit me, it does not define me, it is a familiar, usually comfortable, and extremely powerful construct that carries with it the illusion that it is all that I am. That’s simply not accurate. It is there to work with to whatever degree we need or desire both before and after an awakening experience. 

 

As always don’t believe anything I say. Do the work you are drawn to, whatever that may be, and look deeply at yourself (I mean that in a general sense, not pointing at anyone in particular).

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

That is a misunderstanding imho of the panchakosha. Vijnanamaya kosha (in fact all the koshas are) is always accessible (and accessed), constantly. 
 

You have a body - annamaya kosha 

you have prana/experience energetic flows - pranamaya kosha 

you have a mind/thoughts/emotions/feelings - manomaya kosha

you can perform intellectual activities - vijnanamaya kosha 

you feel pleasure/joy/happiness/enjoy deep sleep every night - anandamaya kosha

 

 

Annamaya kosha, not it, done. Pranamaya  kosha, not it, done. So far it’s taken 5 seconds. A few seconds more and I’ll be all done and dusted. Manomaya kosha, as if, done. Vijnanamaya kosha, already noticed, done. Anandamaya, awesome, done. Abiding in Self, done yesterday. 

 

Quote

 

What is needed is discernment to recognize these things. No one “leaps” ahead to nonduality. To make that statement indicates a lack of understanding. No yogic contortions are necessary, just clarity of understanding (vijnanamaya kosha needs to be used). 
 

What is the point of over complicating these things? They are simple and represent a specific ontological perspective.
 

This is akin to someone saying, I want to experience the panchabhutas or I can’t go beyond them. No shortcuts for me. So are you not always experiencing the panchabhutas? space, air, water, fire, earth? How else do you want to “experience” them?  Just know what they are, understand it, and boom! You’re a certified panchakosha and panchabhuta expert!
 

 

4 elements, got it, done. Not  

 

Quote

No one else needs to confirm this to you — when you know, you know! 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Bindi

[Mark Foote]

 

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Annamaya kosha, not it, done. Pranamaya  kosha, not it, done. So far it’s taken 5 seconds. A few seconds more and I’ll be all done and dusted. Manomaya kosha, as if, done. Vijnanamaya kosha, already noticed, done. Anandamaya, awesome, done. Abiding in Self, done yesterday. 

 

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

4 elements, got it, done. Not  

5 — sheesh get your basic Hindu cosmology right first please  

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I truly wish you success in your spiritual endeavors Bindi. For someone who is as sincere and dedicated as yourself, may you become the nondual reality right here and right now. 🙏🏾
 

Spoiler

Oops…you already are. 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by dwai

[Mark Foote]

 

Quote

 

... what about the strange sensation that your body is doing things of its own accord?

 

The best evidence points to the brain's default mode network, says Terhune, a set of brain regions that are most active when we are at rest. "It's believed to be integrally involved in self-related mentation – daydreaming, mind-wandering and so on," says Terhune.

 

One part of this network in particular – the anterior medial pre-frontal cortex – is thought to play a crucial role in hypnosis. "This region seems to be involved in self-related processing, metacognition [thinking about thinking], and the ability to control your own thoughts," says Terhune. "Those are processes that might be dampened in response to hypnotic induction."

 

With temporarily impaired activity in the default node network, it may become harder to think about yourself as a conscious agent. This might be at the root of the remarkable sensation that you are not an entirely autonomous over your own body.

 

(The Medical Power of Hypnosis, BBC)

 

 

[dawn90]

On 21-05-2022 at 12:25 PM, ralis said:

I still don't get where you are coming from given the horrific abuses by the patriarchy over thousands of years. Slaughter to the max by male politicians, Catholic Church priests, Islam etc. All brought to you by the male patriarchy with the main theme of dominance over women.

 

I believe people abuse others and don't need much motivation.

I don't really believe patriarchy is responsable for this. The proof of that is that you find abuse in any type of system and in any time in human history there has been abuse.

People absolutely can't wait to abuse each other.

Some people use patriarchy as a vehicle now that's different. But you could come up with something nicer and people would still abuse - and you'd see no diminishment of that.

But some people think otherwise.

Non-dualists abuse also.

 

I think in my opinion one of the great strengths of christianity in that it makes people aware and gives the urgency of how desperate people are to sin.

I sense from some people that as long as you're a heart person everything will be okay. You can follow your heart all you want but you won't be following atma.

Because in order to follow atma you have to have an intellectual understanding of atma first. If you could follow atma then you wouldn't need any teachers. You're finding your shape through the writings and hope to fill that space with some experience aka energy; which you hope will result in a full ascension that you would call atma; but you're not there yet.

And it's perfectly possible that you would inadvertently evolve into something that isn't atma.

The devil could be in there. But once you're taken that's it it's over.

You'd need a safety mechanism, to know you've done something wrong. How would you know? By the intellectual understanding that you've gotten beforehand, and you know: oh shit - this isn't proper. This can't be atma; it's something else.

Because the heart is deceitful above all things; you could be making up a whole story just to justify your new impulses. And you fit it in.

You'll be swallowing what the buddha said - or what jesus said, inside your perversion.

An example.

Although an extreme one:

Contract killers who pray to the virgin mary before killing somebody.

 

Asking the virgin mary for protection. And blessings.

 

Now you'd think these guys were crazy, unless you've been hit in the head there's no way you could think the virgin mary would condon this.

But the heart is deceitful above all things. They probably took: Jesus forgives everything.

I can kill somebody and it doesn't matter. Jesus loves everybody; everybody goes to heaven - god has my back.

 

Corruption. You've incorporated christiany in your perversion.

 

Morality doesn't exist i dont' have to change.

I'm going to heaven.

 

So my point with all of this is that christianity in my opinion offers the best safety mechanism for, for a lack of a better word: bullshit that one can tell oneself and start justifying everything and even that sometimes isn't enough.

 

I believe christianity is equipped for that.

Then you fill it with something oriental.

Something that helps you with cultivation. Maybe not christianity's strongest point.

But you want both.

Loved.

By the mother, and the father.

 

[steve]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

It’s worth a lot  

🙏🏼

 

Quote

 

I refer to the kosha model because it is a good fit for my dream of the vine and the structure as the self/Self and the koshas below.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In my dream I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I just walked away. When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place. 

 

But I also relate to energy and the channels as described in the Indian tradition, and there are actual points when a meaningful boundary or gatekeeper is passed, such as when the doors between ida and pingala are opened, or when the central channel is consciously entered. Passing these boundaries allows the subtle energy body to flow in ways that were previously blocked, one boundary at a time, and as far as I can understand this is the underlying structure of what we perceive as the koshas. 

 

 

This is the dynamic I wish to perceive and grapple with ultimately, the tiny bit of personal perspective that’s left, this is what I’m so carefully working towards. Thing is I don’t think it’s actually tiny, I think it is actually massive, just almost invisible, I take my cue from the vine trunk wrapped around the post, the post is almost indistinguishable from the vine, so it would be easy to kid oneself that there is already no post, and this is far from the truth. 
 

I greatly benefit from Bön energy practices with the channels, winds, and chakras. The paradigm is similar to the Indian.

 

It’s always easy to kid oneself whether about nonduality, dreams, or anything else, who and what do we trust?

 

This is a benefit of non-interference practice.

 

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I suspect I am in ‘hunt it down’ mode, I want to see it so I can do something about it, and I need the right ‘spiritual’ tools to be able to do that, and I need to know when to grapple with it, and when to walk away. The wrong action at the wrong time won’t get the job done. 

I hunted for a very long time and it’s different for me now. Nothing more to find or figure out really, not conceptually anyhow. Just far more opening and consistency would be nice.

 

I resonate with the ‘walk away’ part most at this point on my path. Non-interference. No kidding. Just leave it as it is. Not because things can’t be better but who is doing the improving?

 

Can I trust space and awareness? Can I trust the internal narrator or external narrative? All are always there.

 

Barb sums it up elegantly…

 

4 hours ago, manitou said:

It's just a question of standing back, mentally, and allowing the answer to arise.  Opinion or pre-conditioning don't seem to be part of the equation.  It's all about getting ourselves out of the way

 

 

[Giles]

8 hours ago, silent thunder said:

yet in my experience there are no nouns

only verbs

 

Yet Lao Tzu asserts that the sage does nothing.

So perhaps he was mistaken or perhaps you haven't discovered that timeless stillness?

[old3bob]

 spokes and its wheel revolve around a stationary axle. 

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Giles said:

 

  17 hours ago, silent thunder said:

yet in my experience there are no nouns

only verbs

 

 

Yet Lao Tzu asserts that the sage does nothing.

So perhaps he was mistaken or perhaps you haven't discovered that timeless stillness?

 

Navajo is a "verb-heavy" language – it has a great preponderance of verbs but relatively few nouns. ... Navajo has no words that would correspond to adjectives in English grammar: verbs provide the adjectival functionality.

 

(Wikipedia, "Navajo Grammer")

 

The Way does nothing, and yet nothing remains unaccomplished. (wuwei er wu buwei)

 

(Daodejing, Matt Stefon for Encyclopedia Brittanica)
 

 

If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still.  If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark.

 

("Lancet of Seated Meditation", Dogen, quote attributed to Great Master Hung-tao of Yueh shan, tr. Carl Bielefeldt "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" 1st ed)

 

 

"And again, Ananda, (a person), not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless.  His mind is satisfied with ... and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless."

 

(Majjhima Nikaya, Pali Text Society Vol III p 150)

 

 

Seated meditation is not holding still:

 

... what about the strange sensation that your body is doing things of its own accord?
 

(The Medical Power of Hypnosis, BBC)

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

from the Katha Upanishad: (which is different than what many claim their efforts alone have gained, thus they may have gained something but not the "Self" per the Upanishads) 

 

"...20. 'The Self, smaller than small, greater than great, is hidden in the heart of that creature. A man who is free from desires and free from grief, sees the majesty of the Self by the grace of the Creator.'

21. 'Though sitting still, he walks far; though lying down, he goes everywhere. Who, save myself, is able to know that God who rejoices and rejoices not?'

22. 'The wise who knows the Self as bodiless within the bodies, as unchanging among changing things, as great and omnipresent, does never grieve.'

 

23. 'That Self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self chooses him (his body) as his own.'

 

24. 'But he who has not first turned away from his wickedness, who is not tranquil, and subdued, or whose mind is not at rest, he can never obtain the Self (even) by knowledge!..."

Edited May 26, 2022 by old3bob

[Giles]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Seated meditation is not holding still:

 

The Way I was taught involved parking the body so that it doesn't catch the mind by being uncomfortable, restless etc.

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Hypnotic trance is also very different from the meditation that I was taught.

[Giles]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 spokes and its wheel revolve around a stationary axle. 

 

Although the axle is very much alive.

[Giles]

37 minutes ago, old3bob said:

24. 'But he who has not first turned away from his wickedness, who is not tranquil, and subdued, or whose mind is not at rest, he can never obtain the Self (even) by knowledge!..."

 

Some certainly underestimate the foundational importance of yamas & niyamas.

[Giles]

These are quite useful and relevant to this discussion.

I'm happy to lend them to anyone who's seriously interested in this topic (DM me if you're interested in borrowing either or both).

 

[dawn90]

On 23-05-2022 at 11:09 PM, Lairg said:

One of the simple ways of dealing with duality is to take a top-down view of Reality rather than a bottom-up view

 

The bottom-up view is necessarily very dualistic - matter looking at spirit

 

You saying you're half spirit half matter?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

 

You saying you're half spirit half matter?

 

The concept of spirit and matter results from the point of view.  The entity immersed in low frequency substance (e.g. mental and emotional) sees spirit as being remote.

 

The source of spirit however sees matter as the end of its fingertips - the outermost extent of its body of manifestation

 

The terms spirit and matter are frequency/density descriptions and refer to a spectrum view of the one Existence

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Giles said:

 

The Way I was taught involved parking the body so that it doesn't catch the mind by being uncomfortable, restless etc.

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Hypnotic trance is also very different from the meditation that I was taught.

 

I attended a few of Kobun Chino Otogawa's lectures in the '70's, at the Santa Cruz Zen Center.  In the '80's, I heard him say this at the close of a talk at the SF Zen Center:

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

 

 

I think there was a kind of admonishment in this, letting the folks in his audience (many of whom were residents at SF Zen Center) know that zazen is not really about holding still.  It's about discovering action of the body that takes place without "determinate thought", without habit or volition.  And that action can sometimes get up and walk around.

 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you
experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.

 

(Kobun, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

 

But despite decades of research on its therapeutic value and a growing understanding of its mechanism in the brain, the uptake of clinical hypnosis has been remarkably slow. Much of that is down to the common misconception that hypnosis is little more than a stage magician's trick.

 

(https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220519-does-hypnosis-work)

I played with hypnosis a bit in high school.  I think the zazen that gets up and walks around is a function of the senses wrapped up in the location of self-awareness with any given movement of breath, but there is a cessation of volitive activity (without necessarily a cessation of action) much like hypnosis.  

 

The mystery is that sometimes the action of zazen is coincident with things that are happening on the other side of town, or maybe with things that haven't happened yet.  Discovering that this was so made me want to stick with the action of zazen all the time, but as I understand it now the place where that action comes from is more naturally just touched on in the rhythm of mindfulness.  Set up regularly in seated meditation, then touched on at intervals in the course of daily life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Giles]

If you're saying that an effective sitting practice gets taken off the cushion into (so-called) mundane life, then we're almost certainly on the same chapter (although perhaps not on the same page), Mark. 😉

Edited May 27, 2022 by Giles

[Mark Foote]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:03 PM, dawn90 said:

 

So my point with all of this is that christianity in my opinion offers the best safety mechanism for, for a lack of a better word: bullshit that one can tell oneself and start justifying everything and even that sometimes isn't enough.

 

 

The practicing Christians I've known accepted that they were helpless sinners and could do no right, but when they let Jesus into their hearts, Jesus could.

 

Not so different from discovering that action can take place in the absence of volition, and that such action is coincident with things that are happening on the other side of town or maybe with things that haven't happened yet, so that the action still seems positive after the fact--it stands the test of time, so to speak. 

 

Acting on the basis of right and wrong, eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, a helpless sinner even when all the commandments are kept. 

 

Climbing off the top of a 100-foot pole, reaching the top of the mountain and continuing to climb--how to find action in the absence of volition.  And maybe keeping the helpless sinner in sight, painful as that might be, until a surrender takes place and Jesus comes into one's heart?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Mark Foote

[dawn90]

Outside of Christ you're hopelessly full of sin you are correct.

That's why the realization that you have to get to.

Is to understand that under the current conditions you can't live from the heart because that heart doesn't recognize Christ.

You have to cultivate yourself up until that heart is refined to a sufficient extent that you can live naturally under Christ.

Because if you take it litteraly - then you don't do anything; quite the contrary: you're supposed to try then fail miserably and understand, my god; I really can't do it without Christ. That leads to the understanding that your heart still has to be refined - that you didn't make it like you thought you had.

 

Because you test: can you stop lying?

Even for one week?

Can you live by the ten commandments - and you're right you can't with this present heart you have today - so be careful.

 

Bindi mentioned this that non-dual realization might be an incomplete realization where you stop at maybe 70 percent and you think you've made it. Now if you believe in Christ you would know you haven't by testing yourself agains the ten commandments.

Until then: you have to use your brain - until the full transference to a heart based life is possible, under Christ.

Christ is the standard. Or Gautama Buddha - or some other ascended being; christianity is just really good at making you aware that this kind of deception is possible.

Don't stop there - you'll make it.

[old3bob]

43 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

Outside of Christ you're hopelessly full of sin you are correct.

That's why the realization that you have to get to.

Is to understand that under the current conditions you can't live from the heart because that heart doesn't recognize Christ.

You have to cultivate yourself up until that heart is refined to a sufficient extent that you can live naturally under Christ.

Because if you take it litteraly - then you don't do anything; quite the contrary: you're supposed to try then fail miserably and understand, my god; I really can't do it without Christ. That leads to the understanding that your heart still has to be refined - that you didn't make it like you thought you had.

 

Because you test: can you stop lying?

Even for one week?

Can you live by the ten commandments - and you're right you can't with this present heart you have today - so be careful.

 

Bindi mentioned this that non-dual realization might be an incomplete realization where you stop at maybe 70 percent and you think you've made it. Now if you believe in Christ you would know you haven't by testing yourself agains the ten commandments.

Until then: you have to use your brain - until the full transference to a heart based life is possible, under Christ.

Christ is the standard. Or Gautama Buddha - or some other ascended being; christianity is just really good at making you aware that this kind of deception is possible.

Don't stop there - you'll make it.

 

Id' say it sounds like you need to study up on history from the past 2 thousand years or so that recounts all the horrific genocide against native peoples and also the slaughter (for instance during the inquisition period) among various Christian peoples and sects of each other in the name of Christ that was committed by hopelessly brainwashed "Christians";  none of which Jesus would condone or excuse via "manifest destiny" or for any other reasons.

Edited May 27, 2022 by old3bob

[dawn90]

There's been a slight problem in translation, I don't mean Christ just as a human being; I meant Christ consciousness, which exists in every religion and every system on planet earth.

I mean a certain quality in your heart; which other religoins call something else.

 

You took me litteraly Oldboob.