Bindi

Yin and Yang

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Antares said:

and what do you think this verse about?

 


I don’t like the translation to be honest.

 

——

 

The motion of Dao is through return.


Dao achieves through receptivity.

 

The myriad beings originate from existence, and existence arises from nothingness.

 

——


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Edited by freeform
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On 27.08.2021 at 7:14 PM, freeform said:

I don’t like the translation to be honest.

Translation of DDJ should be done by daoist master, but not by any curious researcher. I saw the translation by Teacher of Single Yang of this chapter and he says that something must be reverted and it has crucial practical aspect of Neidan. And it concerns Yin and Yang aspects of a person 

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On 24/08/2021 at 10:30 PM, Master Logray said:

 

There are 2 usages of Yin and Yang.  The first explanation is Yang is superior, Yin is not desirable.  Lu Dong Bin, one of the eight immortals, and being the "in-charge" of Taoist religion, has another name Lu "Pure Yang".   We accumulate Yang Chi in the LDT etc.   On a day to day basis, a TCM doctor would say your Yang Chi is insufficient and sicknesses arise.  While a person is having Yin Chi, let say green and black eyes, bad conditions, then it is usual to suspect some spirits may have entered the body.

 

The second common usage is as per Yi Jing or philosophical line.  Yin/Yang are symbols of opposing/harmonising states/forces like active/passive, expanding/contracting, up/down etc.

 

It is usually not difficult to differentiate the two usages in normal discussions with additional information from the context.  But Taoist classics may not distinguish between the two clearly.  So some care must be taken in reading.


Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

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On 27/08/2021 at 10:11 PM, freeform said:


oh I see - I misunderstood.

 

The DDJ is all about humility… what I’d call divine humility. It’s a Yin quality.

 

The Yin of the Xin invites heaven to earth.

 

Verse 10


Can you govern the Po, embrace the union and never
separate from this way?

 

Can you gather Qi until it is as pliable as a newborn infant?

 

Can you clarify the mysterious perception until it is
without distortion?

 

Can you love your people and govern the country without contrivance?

Can you open and close the gate of Heaven, while
maintaining the feminine?

Can the light of your illumination penetrate the four directions without contriving?


Give life, and raise the people. 
 

Give life, but do not possess, allow action, but do not take credit.

 

Lead, without dominating.

 

This is the most mysterious of De.

 

  Quote

Verse 36


To compress it, first extend it.

To soften it, first strengthen it.


Before abandoning it, first build it.


Before grasping it, first surrender yourself to it.


This is the subtle nature of enlightenment.

 

  Quote

Verse 39

When sages attained union, Heaven became pure and Earth became still.


When spirit achieves union, you become divine.


When the valleys attain union, they become full.


When myriad beings attain union, they become fertile.


When rulers attain union, they become unequalled below Heaven.

[…]

To attain union, we must achieve humility.


The high must have the low as it’s root.
[…]

 

 

 

I read numerous translations of the first line of chapter ten which refers directly to the Po soul, and I found the translation changes the entire perspective. 
 

You quoted  “Can you govern the Po, embrace the union and never
separate from this way?”
 

Alternatively I found:

 

"Unite physically and mentally to embrace One.(David H.Li)

 

When the intelligent and animal souls are held together in one embrace, they can be kept from separating. (Legge)


Can you unify hun and p'o into one and not let them be divided? (Chang Chung-Yuan)

 

In bringing your spiritual (ying) and bodily (p'o) souls to embrace the One (Ellen Marie Chen)

 

 

These translations all remind me of the quote in the external yellow court which I posted earlier, 
 

“My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.”

Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang

 

…If people were able to constantly have 

clarity and tranquility, they would then

understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun]
and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. 
 

(p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court).

 

There is no reference to governing the Po or separating out the Yang from the Yin, there is only a reference to bringing the Po and Hun souls together and keeping them from separating. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bindi said:


Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

If "yang is superior/yin is not desirable" stands for "releasing cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events/ following ones cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events", then I would say that in this case yang is harmonizing and yin leads to disharmony. 

 

But it is also a concept used in a rather limited context, spiritual practice, and as @Master Lograywrote, care have to be taken in reading so one doesn't fall into the trap of using this as a way to trample women or create unbalance in other ways. 

 

Liu Yiming writes: "For the celestial to grow and the mundane to wane/... ... / the great Tao may be aspired to. "

 

But this is based upon yin and yang merging into one, which again points to yin-yang as context derived. 

 

What might relate to the post above, Liu Yiming continues (solving symbolic language, p282-283):

Yet even through the energy of acquired conditioning has not yet disappeared, since the primordial has been restored, conditioning submits to it and cannot cause harm. 

Edited by Cleansox
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15 hours ago, Antares said:

Translation of DDJ should be done by daoist master, but not by any curious researcher.


Indeed. Most translations are made by translators - not people that have ever had insight into real Daoist practice.

 

15 hours ago, Antares said:

something must be reverted and it has crucial practical aspect of Neidan.


Yes. The return.

 

This isn’t talking about a process being undertaken by a sage. This is the nature of Dao.

 

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

There is no reference to governing the Po or separating out the Yang from the Yin, there is only a reference to bringing the Po and Hun souls together and keeping them from separating. 


There’s are many translations. I don’t do comparative translation discussions.

 

The translation I presented doesn’t mention about separating yang from yin.
 

In fact all the quotes are meant to show the importance of both Yin and Yang.

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13 hours ago, Bindi said:


Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable? 

 

I don't really understand your question.  Perhaps it can be explained in this way.   Let say Yang Chi is Money.  The more is considered the better.   Yin Chi like debts, dirty money is not desirable.

 

While the Yin/Yang principle looks after how one interacts with money.  Uncontrolled spending/over investment etc are considered too Yang.  Pure saving/hoarding money under your bed would be too Yin.  Some kind of balance, harmonising is necessary.

 

There is no transition from one to the other.  They are separate, although inter-related.

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Cleansox said:

If "yang is superior/yin is not desirable" stands for "releasing cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events/ following ones cognitive, emotional and physiological conditioning to life events", then I would say that in this case yang is harmonizing and yin leads to disharmony. 

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that if I could break the word associations of Yin-female and Yang-male I would have no problem with any of this, unfortunately I can’t break those word chains, and I don’t think I’d ever even want to. Oh well. I think I’m better off working with the true yin/true yang model, far more productive and wholesome for me. In this model, true Yang without true Yin would be as unbalanced as a cart with one wheel. 

 

Quote

 

 

But it is also a concept used in a rather limited context, spiritual practice, and as @Master Lograywrote, care have to be taken in reading so one doesn't fall into the trap of using this as a way to trample women or create unbalance in other ways. 

 

Liu Yiming writes: "For the celestial to grow and the mundane to wane/... ... / the great Tao may be aspired to. "

 

But this is based upon yin and yang merging into one, which again points to yin-yang as context derived. 

 

What might relate to the post above, Liu Yiming continues (solving symbolic language, p282-283):

Yet even through the energy of acquired conditioning has not yet disappeared, since the primordial has been restored, conditioning submits to it and cannot cause harm. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I have come to the conclusion that if I could break the word associations of Yin-female and Yang-male I would have no problem with any of this, unfortunately I can’t break those word chains, and I don’t think I’d ever even want to. Oh well. I think I’m better off working with the true yin/true yang model, far more productive and wholesome for me. In this model, true Yang without true Yin would be as unbalanced as a cart with one wheel. 

 

 

 

I’ve mentioned in previous threads how helpful and complementary to Neidan I find the conceptual imagery of Western alchemy for gaining insight into my actual experiences of alchemical  transmutation:

 

Rebis (from Wikipedia)

 

The Rebis (from the Latin res bina, meaning dual or double matter) is the end product of the alchemical magnum opus or great work.

 

After one has gone through the stages of putrefaction and purification, separating opposing qualities, those qualities are united once more in what is sometimes described as the divine hermaphrodite, a reconciliation of spirit and matter, a being of both male and female qualities as indicated by the male and female head within a single body. The sun and moon correspond to the male and female halves, just as the Red King and White Queen are similarly associated.

 

Rebis_Theoria_Philosophiae_Hermeticae_1617.jpg.8b2fb4854cce07f2adb5a1dcebc3f531.jpg

 

Rebis from Theoria Philosophiae Hermeticae (1617) by Heinrich Nollius

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Posted (edited)

@Yueya, I came across these paragraphs yesterday, I thought they might resonate with you:

 

Another Daoist practice that has made its way into modern Qigong is inner observation or neiguan, the active, conscious introspection of one’s body and mind. As documented in texts since the Tang dynasty, and in particular in the Scripture of Inner Observation (Neiguan jing; see Kohn 1989), practitioners are guided to turn their perception inside and realize the realities of body energies and consciousness movements within. Soon they begin to understand how they function and react both physically and psychologically. With prolonged practice, they become aware of the subtler energies of life and see themselves increasingly in terms of Qi-patterns than ego-centered actions. As the Scripture of Inner Observation says, adepts come to see the body as part of Heaven and Earth, raised through yang and nourished by yin, helped and guarded by the spirit and material souls, organized in accordance with the five phases and the six musical tones, radiating with the power of the seven stars and the eight luminaries.

 

They learn that beyond their tangible Qi, they consist to a large extend of spirit (shen), the primordial, formless, and ever-changing force, which in connection with the physical body causes human beings to be alive. Manifested in the human mind, where it is often distorted to serve egoistic and one-sided needs, spirit is brought back to a state of rest as the mind is concentrated and relaxed. Adepts come to see that just as the Dao pervades the universe in utmost perfection, so spirit working through their mind can govern their life perfectly—that is, as long as it is observed and cultivated and not wasted on sensual amusements and the exertions of the senses. From confusion and defilement, adepts recover the primordial state.

 

Doing so, they come to realize the impermanent nature of the ego-based vision of self and body and replace this identity with one that consists of an assemblance of energy, essence, and spirit. They realize in their own lives the dictum of Zhuangzi that “human life is a coming-together of Qi. If it comes together there is life. If it scatters there is death” (Watson 1968, 235). Human life is only one part of the continuous natural transformations of Qi; it is merely borrowed from heaven and earth but since it resembles them closely in its structuring and undergoes the same transformations as all creation, it can be made just as perfect, just as flowing, just as eternal. Realizing this inherent nature of life and themselves, adepts see that there is no true master of body and mind and acknowledge how little conscious control they have over life’s transformations. Increasingly able to let life and the body go on changing as they please, they can forget themselves and dissolve into the higher patterns of the Dao.

 

This Dao, in the Daoist context, however, is not just a flow of energies, but populated by gods, spirits, and other supernatural entities. As the practitioner becomes more attuned to his life and body as the universe, he or she also comes to actively perceive the gods and spirits as inhabitants of the human body. The body and thus the self becomes increasingly a microcosmic replica of the starry heavens above, full of palaces and chambers, towers and terraces, gods and immortals. The deities who reside in the paradises of the otherworld are as much at home in the adept’s body, and again—as through the ingestion of the five sprouts—the adept comes to cosmicize his or her self, expanding identity into a larger sphere.

 

From Livia Kohn Here

 

 

Edited by Bindi
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