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The God(s) answer to no one!  They are an unknown!  Their law is do what thou wilt, and they deserve neither condemnation nor praise!  If you want to live for love and kindness, then do that.  If you want to live for power and wealth, then do that!  The Gods will do what they will do, and so should you.  

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16 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

The God(s) answer to no one!  They are an unknown!  Their law is do what thou wilt, and they deserve neither condemnation nor praise!  If you want to live for love and kindness, then do that.  If you want to live for power and wealth, then do that!  The Gods will do what they will do, and so should you.  

 

The point I was making was that the path of humility may be a bit out of reach for some. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 7:28 AM, Daniel said:

 

Yes, belief that one is the subject of God's interest, more so than others, is a delusion of granduer.  Being the target of a powerful demon or demons, imo, is another example.  Belief that one has predicted the war in the Middle East is another example. 

 

 

And in the final run, belief is just something that is a product of our conditioning.  Every single person on this earth, whether then, now, or later - has had different conditioning.  If we sit across from each other in a restaurant, we are having two different experiences.  I'm looking at the pretty view and you're watching the sweaty kitchen workers.  I guarantee we'll come back with two different impressions of the experience.  :huh:

 

It seems so silly for any one belief, religion, cult - to think that their particular path is any better than any other path.  The thing we all have in common all around the world is the inner urge to know.  Whatever folklore we happen to be born into is our very challenge in this life; to break through this familial or societal conditioning and get to where the clarity resides.  It is contained within no boat that got us across the river.  The boat is ultimately discarded, but available for visitation always..

 

Belief in demons or angels is a conditioned belief system.  This makes it no less real!  Sometimes these things develop out of a young child's need to get attention away from another sibling - so many things could have started the ball rolling.  But roll it does.  I personally think that if you, @helpfuldemon, ever got to the point where you managed to see that all things are really unified - and to know me is the very same as to know you.  We are one.  But we have forgotten that, from the huddled tribe days.  We are merely one spirit walking around in separate skin bags - but in actuality, we are all the very same ocean, and you know what happens when two water drops run into each other on your windshield.  Can't tell 'em apart any more  :D  This is also the very mindset that is needed to love people unconditionally.

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Are you saying that there is no difference between a murderer, a thief, and you?  And that you can love these types unconditionally?

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On 9/11/2021 at 6:52 PM, manitou said:

 

And in the final run, belief is just something that is a product of our conditioning.  Every single person on this earth, whether then, now, or later - has had different conditioning.  If we sit across from each other in a restaurant, we are having two different experiences.  I'm looking at the pretty view and you're watching the sweaty kitchen workers.  I guarantee we'll come back with two different impressions of the experience.  :huh:

 

 

:) Hopefully it wouldn't be vastly different...

 

On 9/11/2021 at 6:52 PM, manitou said:

It seems so silly for any one belief, religion, cult - to think that their particular path is any better than any other path.  The thing we all have in common all around the world is the inner urge to know.  Whatever folklore we happen to be born into is our very challenge in this life; to break through this familial or societal conditioning and get to where the clarity resides.  It is contained within no boat that got us across the river.  The boat is ultimately discarded, but available for visitation always..

 

One person's conditioning, is another person's culture.

 

On 9/11/2021 at 6:52 PM, manitou said:

Belief in demons or angels is a conditioned belief system.  This makes it no less real!  Sometimes these things develop out of a young child's need to get attention away from another sibling - so many things could have started the ball rolling.  But roll it does.  I personally think that if you, @helpfuldemon, ever got to the point where you managed to see that all things are really unified - and to know me is the very same as to know you.  We are one.  But we have forgotten that, from the huddled tribe days.  We are merely one spirit walking around in separate skin bags - but in actuality, we are all the very same ocean, and you know what happens when two water drops run into each other on your windshield.  Can't tell 'em apart any more  :D  This is also the very mindset that is needed to love people unconditionally.

 

You may be right.  I see it a little differently.  Perhaps this will resonate with @helpfuldemon, and provide some relief.

 

Edited by Daniel

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11 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Are you saying that there is no difference between a murderer, a thief, and you?  And that you can love these types unconditionally?

 

In theory, one could isolate these individuals in order to prevent them from causing more harm and continuing to bring karma onto themselves.

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2 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

We have that already, its called prison :P


Except it achieves none of those objectives and does precisely the opposite 😜

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14 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

We have that already, its called prison :P

 

The point I was trying to make, is that there is a form of unconditional love which is appropriate for thieves, muderers, etc.  It involves isolation.

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"That the world was and will be crap,

I already know In 510 and in 2021 too That there have always been jets, Machiavellians and scammed

Happy and bitter, values and I doubled

But that the 21th century is a display of insolent wickedness, there is no one who denies it

We live wallowing in a dirty soap

And in the same mud, all groped

Today it turns out that it is the same to be a right than a traitor Ignorant, wise or squirt, pretentious con man

Everything is the same, nothing is better The same a donkey as a great teacher There are no postponements, what will there be?

Nor ladder

The immoral have equaled us

If one lives in imposture and another strives in his ambition

It does not matter if he is a priest, mattress, king of clubs, badass or stowaway

What lack of respect, what a trampling of reason!

Anyone is a lord, anyone is a thief

Mixed with Toscanini, it goes Escarfaso and Napoleon

Don Bosco and the Mignón, Carnera and San Martín

Just like in the disrespectful window

From the exchanges life has been mixed And wounded by a rivetless saber

You see the Bible crying next to a water heater

Twentieth century, troubled and feverish trade

The one who does not cry does not breastfeed and the one who does not steal is a dump

Just give it, give it that goes

That there in the oven we are going to find Think no more, sit aside

That nobody cares if you were born honored

If it is the same the one that work

Night and day like an ox

That the one who lives off the bitches Than the one who kills, than the one who cures

Or is it outside the law"

 

From Tango Cambalache by Julio Sosa

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On 9/12/2021 at 11:10 PM, helpfuldemon said:

Are you saying that there is no difference between a murderer, a thief, and you?  And that you can love these types unconditionally?

 

 

I'm not sure there's a murderous type.  I was married to a man for 35 years who had a horrendous background, one of his crimes being murder.  Also transporting prostitutes across state lines, and also a thief.  And addicted to heroin, to boot.

 

This man, by hitting his bottom, turned his life around to the point where he died an enlightened one.  This is where the concept of no-judgment is so crucial, IMO.  Had I turned my back on him because of his past, I would never have had the wonderful years (the latter ones) I had with him.  A magical man.

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A murderous type is one that has committed murder.  I don't think there is a type of person that is predetermined to commit murder, I mean someone that already has.

 

 

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When you refer to a murderous type, this is ignoring the fact that we are all the same entity.  Funny thing is, if I had the same conditioning as the 'murderous type', I'd be a murderous type too.

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Posted (edited)

I'd say that at the end of all time, space and form there is only one being, the Supreme Being, but since there is also a multiverse of time, space and limitless number of various beings in various forms and thus states of varied being it would be misplaced idealism and or misunderstood mysticism imo to say or imply that we are all at the same state of being or just one being... which maybe only one out of maybe a billion beings has fully realized and is acting from through a fully evolved matrix of soul. 

Edited by old3bob
touch up
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Posted (edited)
On 9/18/2021 at 4:44 PM, Daniel said:

 

The point I was trying to make, is that there is a form of unconditional love which is appropriate for thieves, muderers, etc.  It involves isolation.

I guess, mothers and saints often have it.  Best most of us can do is forgive and not forget.  Help but not make ourselves too vulnerable or victimized. 

 

When it comes to some of the worst rascists, Klan, neo-nazi's the reflex is revulsion and to fight but the people who've made a real difference are those who've shown them love.. even respect.  These saintly people have turned around some of the worst, whereas guys like myself, probably just add tinder.

Edited by thelerner

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4 hours ago, manitou said:

When you refer to a murderous type, this is ignoring the fact that we are all the same entity.  Funny thing is, if I had the same conditioning as the 'murderous type', I'd be a murderous type too.

 

... maybe .... possibly ....

 

On the other hand, maybe you would rebel against the conditioning?

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23 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

... maybe .... possibly ....

 

On the other hand, maybe you would rebel against the conditioning?

 

 

I was married for 35 years to a murderous type, and a thief.   He changed himself 180 degrees and died as the most wonderful man, a shaman in fact, that you could possibly know.

 

When you're real young and treated real badly, there isn't much you can do to rebel against it.  Most of the damage is done in the first 7 years or so.  All I know is one thing.  That we all boil down to the same thing on the inside;  we are The Intelligence that has created all this, and continues creating.  Our conditioning is the very thing that hides the Intelligence, and it's not until one removes their conditioning that the Intelligence can be found.  It's found by peeling away the layers of conditioning.  It must be a concerted effort to do this, it doesn't just happen.  Whether the concerted effort is to dig and look for defects, or utilize a mantra or some other device that will diminish them.  If a person just stays the same old person after horrible conditioning, I don't think there's a chance in hell for enlightenment.

 

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I'm not so certain we should discount individuality so easily.  What are we all underneath?  We are a clean slate that accepts experience and reacts to it.  If being "one" underneath means that we see experience and don't react, then what you are saying is that we should monitor our behavior so that we do not respond in negative ways.  This is easier said than done in a world of infinite choices.

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Besides that ^^ non-duality is an easy way to avoid personal responsibility.

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:D   I remember being on the gate at a hippy festival, trying to extract entry fees from people ;  some paid up happily . 

 

Others ; "There should be no individual payment  we are all one ,   man .  "

 

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Anyway.... I think it's bullshit what's happened to me.  This device has done nothing but cause me pain and ruin my life.  It's taken away my will to live, and my creativity.  I have a greater appreciation for our nations healthcare support system, I have a greater appreciation for our technological advances, but I still say, where was God all this time.  We sure could have used His help through history.  If you want to believe the magic hoo ha that religion sells you that's fine, but I am going to keep my nose clean of it all.

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On 10/7/2021 at 9:51 PM, helpfuldemon said:

It is kind of a hippy notion that we are all one.  I don't feel like it flies in this Age.  Maybe for older folks.

 

another way to try and express this is that there is only one of us that is veiled from the many of us;

thus instead of envisioning that zillions of us are somehow stuffed into one,  envision that there is only one being reflected (so to speak) by zillions of mirrors,  mirrors which all have different variations in their reflective surfaces. (variations which do not change the original one of us that is being reflected in zillions of different ways)

Edited by old3bob

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15 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

another way to try and express this is that there is only one of us that is veiled from the many of us;

thus instead of envisioning that zillions of us are somehow stuffed into one,  envision that there is only one being reflected (so to speak) by zillions of mirrors,  mirrors which all have different variations in their reflective surfaces. (variations which do not change the original one of us that is being reflected in different ways)

Yeah but I don't think that is how Manitou intends us to believe, because that honors the individual in us, but I am more in line with your idea than hers.

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