What are your tradition's safeguards against self-delusion or being deluded by others?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, sagebrush said:

lets have some cat stevens morning has broken. can i.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

It is apparent that more than 'morning' has broken .

 

 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Maybe those dogs read your posts ?

 

Good morning Nun,

 

They are stray dogs. Have not been domesticated/trained/schooled... They are illiterate.

 

You want to teach them?

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Nungali]

What !   ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

Is something in the water today? Lol

[Limahong]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

What !   ?

 

 

Now I don't bark up the wrong tree.

 

[Apech]

What is this thread about again?

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

What is this thread about again?

OP was targeting delusion using an example of a claim to enlightenment, and the conversation evolved into a discussion of the nuances of the stages of enlightenment and disagreements between traditions.

 

Then something else happened which I can't explain, 

Edit: though whatever it was, there seemed to be a LOT of it around the world yesterday

Edited January 7, 2021 by Wilhelm

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

What is this thread about again

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

OP was targeting delusion 

 

Then something else happened which I can't explain 

 

Lots of delusion happened!

 

I seriously think one of the posters yesterday was either taking something or had stopped taking something they needed to be taking.

Edited January 7, 2021 by dmattwads

[forestofemptiness]

The Daobums Thread Devlolutionary Syndrome. It usually happens around page 3-4, and totally triumphs by page 9-10. 

 

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Then something else happened which I can't explain, 

Edit: though whatever it was, there seemed to be a LOT of it around the world yesterday

 

[Sketch]

My response to the original question is in my interpretation of Lao Tzu, verse two, which I coincidentally posted yesterday.

 

it hinges on the character

相 Xiang : to see for oneself; to evaluate by seeing for oneself

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Sketch

[Maddie]

Why not get this puppy back on track....

 

A few days ago someone had made the claim to be enlightened and this thread was created to discuss how one can know if someone is truly enlightened or not and if so how this can be known.

[Sketch]

I'd say that the real questions - the question of "How much is real? Where are the edges between my map and the territory? Just how fragmented am I?"  aren't really furthered by wondering about the state of someone else.

[Sketch]

As you get yourself together, you move towards me. As I heal myself, I move towards you. 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

There was a LOT of good information mixed in with the craziness yesterday, and I hope to get to all of it.  First though I'm going in chronological order so I wanted to respond to dwai 

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

Other than that, I look at the people around them. If a majority are acting like mindless,  fawning sycophants, I will stay away. I got away from the art of living movement because of that, and it’s predominantly why I stay away from “rockstar” teachers beyond a occasional visit (the teachers such as Amma and Sadhguru are great imho)  — it is almost impossible to get into their inner circle, as the people who control access to them will almost never let you get close enough to have a 1x1 conversation with the teachers. I like to have a close and personal relationship with my teacher — and was lucky enough to find two who have helped me over the years.

That's very interesting.  I was studying in the school of one of those 'rockstars' you mentioned, and left for that very reason!  (Inability to get close, and access to great teachings elsewhere)

 

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

WRT the pre-requisites(and I’ve posted about this here earlier too) — the traditional guidelines on these are as follows — 

https://sriramanamaharishi.com/my_keywords/sadhana-chatushtaya/

 

These are “qualifications” one must develop before/during the study of Advaita Vedanta. A good gauge for a seeker, is the intensity of their thirst for liberation (or to know). The stronger the thirst, the more prepared we are. At one point, it seems like “everything else is inconsequential — I have to know, I have to find out, even if it is the last thing I ever do”...

Reading these over - I imagine they are relative, eh?  It seems having a high degree of these qualities would almost be a gauge of an individual's attainment, no?  Similar to the seven factors of awakening?

 

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

As far as whether one can be deluding themselves vs objective signs in terms of Self-realization, here are some more thoughts :

I appreciate this - there are some hard to miss gauges of progress here

 

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

Basically, when we know, we know. There is not an iota of doubt anymore about the nature of reality or Self. The earlier questions/doubts that arise during the process of inquiry are resolved. Advaita Vedanta (and in general the Wisdom paths) tend to be Self-evident and our own mundane lives will be transformed as a result thereof. There are two distinct stages in the switch from seeker to "adept" (though I balk at the word, I can't find a more appropriate one in english here, in sanskrit/indian languages we would use the word 'jñānī') --

• Brahmavid -- One who has had a direct and irreversible realization of their True Nature
• jivanamukta -- One who is liberated while embodied

That's very interesting, thank you!  I'm hesitant to draw more parallels to other theories, but I had no idea Vedanta also described 'stages' to awakening (while also holding the view that Self-Realization is imminent and self-evident, and pardon me if that paraphrasing was incorrect)

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

For someone who has already completed the preparatory work, there is virtually no gap between brahmajnana/tattvajnana and jivanamukti. -- and they are called "krtopāsaka. For most, especially in the modern world, it is the second category, that of an "akrtopāsaka", who has not yet completed all the preparatory work. Such people might experience what is called "viparita bhāvana"  (contrary tendencies), and they won't enjoy the complete fruit of embodied-realization until the point that they do. If they don't, upon the dropping of the physical body, they are liberated (videha mukti). 

And this preparatory work includes the qualities in your linked Sadhana Chatushtaya article?

 

On 1/5/2021 at 9:53 AM, dwai said:

No extraordinary siddhis are necessary or required for Self-realization. 

Self-Realization being another word for brahmajnana/tattvajnana, or as a word for jivanamukti?

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

There was a LOT of good information mixed in with the craziness yesterday, and I hope to get to all of it.  First though I'm going in chronological order so I wanted to respond to dwai 

That's very interesting.  I was studying in the school of one of those 'rockstars' you mentioned, and left for that very reason!  (Inability to get close, and access to great teachings elsewhere)

 

Reading these over - I imagine they are relative, eh?  It seems having a high degree of these qualities would almost be a gauge of an individual's attainment, no?  Similar to the seven factors of awakening?

These are similar to the “Yama-Niyama” guidelines in Patanjali Yoga. What’s good for the goose is also good for the gander  

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

I appreciate this - there are some hard to miss gauges of progress here

 

That's very interesting, thank you!  I'm hesitant to draw more parallels to other theories, but I had no idea Vedanta also described 'stages' to awakening (while also holding the view that Self-Realization is imminent and self-evident, and pardon me if that paraphrasing was incorrect)

And this preparatory work includes the qualities in your linked Sadhana Chatushtaya article?

Yes. In the old world, one became qualified by living a life in accordance to the Vedic tradition. In the modern world, the factors are not as cut and dry. But can be developed through preparatory meditation (yoga, seated meditation, neigong, etc), selfless service of others (even one’s own family), devotion to a deity (one or all of the steps outlined). Once the mind has been purified and focused, with a strong thirst for liberation and the detachment for worldly things, if one begins a systematic study of Advaita Vedanta, success is guaranteed (imho). 

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Self-Realization being another word for brahmajnana/tattvajnana, or as a word for jivanamukti?

Self-realization is Brahmajnana/tattvajnana. Jivanamukti is a specific “state” pertaining  to the apparently separate individual who was formerly the seeker, who after the culmination of their practices realizes that they are actually the “knower”. 

[Maddie]

30 minutes ago, dwai said:

In the old world, one became qualified by living a life in accordance to the Vedic tradition.

 

The reason this statement got my attention is because lately I have the feeling from my studies of Buddhism and the suttas that what I learned of the Vedic tradition might be somewhat of a straw man Vedic tradition. To me the Brahmin priests coming to the Buddha to learn how to preform their own religion better seems a bit ridiculous and also probably propaganda. So with that being said I think a basic summary of the Vedic tradition that I read in the Buddhist suttas mostly involves preforming sacrifices and reciting mantras correctly. Again this seems a bit simplistic I think, so what I want to know is what actually was the Vedic path to liberation? 

[freeform]

 

26 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

So with that being said I think a basic summary of the Vedic tradition that I read in the Buddhist suttas mostly involves preforming sacrifices and reciting mantras correctly.

Much of the meditative path comes to us through the Vedic tradition.

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

The reason this statement got my attention is because lately I have the feeling from my studies of Buddhism and the suttas that what I learned of the Vedic tradition might be somewhat of a straw man Vedic tradition. To me the Brahmin priests coming to the Buddha to learn how to preform their own religion better seems a bit ridiculous and also probably propaganda. So with that being said I think a basic summary of the Vedic tradition that I read in the Buddhist suttas mostly involves preforming sacrifices and reciting mantras correctly. Again this seems a bit simplistic I think, so what I want to know is what actually was the Vedic path to liberation? 

The Vedic tradition had two primary modes of practice -- One is that of fire sacrifices and ritualistic meditation. The Vedic fire sacrifices were not just physical things being done -- there were esoteric actions performed too. What was being done externally, also needed to be done internally. That was the way for balance to be maintained in the external world, as well as the internal world. Similarly with Mantras -- the mantra practice tradition was borrowed by Buddhists as well  

 

The other mode of practice was the contemplative one -- where the sages would contemplate on the nature of reality, perform self-inquiry. Typically the self-inquiry aspect was done after sufficient disciplined efforts in the ritualistic mode of practice. Also, some would have us believe that the first mode was the older way, and the contemplative/inquiry-based was a later development. So they call the first mode as "purva mimamsa" and the second mode as "uttara mimamsa" or "vedanta". 

 

All Vedic knowledge is stored in the Vedas, of which there are four, and three are primary -- Rig Veda, Yajur Veda and Sāma Veda. The fourth, Atharva Veda is considered a later addition.  The vedic material is organized in layers. First layer is called the Samhitas -- which basically are a compilation of mantras, the Brahmanas -- these relate to the ritualistic aspect of the practice. These two form what is called the "karma kānda" (or action part) of the Vedas. Then we have the Aranyakas and the Upanishads -- these form the jnana kanda (the Wisdom part) of the Vedas. Vedanta as a system is based on the knowledge that the sages recorded in the Upanishads. 

 

Some practitioners opted to deal with the Karma Kanda of the Vedas -- and their path toward liberation was a gradual one -- where the individual soul evolved from human to higher realms, eventually reaching Satya loka, the realm of Light. This is considered the older way.

 

The other was the Jnana way, and in this, Vedanta, especially Advaita Vedanta (Non-dual Vedanta) provides the "Direct Path" -- without the evolutionary process, realize your true nature, and become liberated right here, right now. This is considered the "newer" Vedic way. Now, new and old are relative terms. Internal pointers in the Vedic literature point to a period of 22,000 years into antiquity (though this will be vehemently disputed by Western Historians) for the older mode. The newer mode is more a development from at least 12-14 thousand years back. 

 

vis-a-vis The Buddha and the Brahmin priests -- interestingly enough, the Buddha was not a Buddhist  

He didn't create a religion per se -- by the time of the Buddha, the old Vedic tradition had gone into decline and the popular philosophical traditions were Samkhya (a dualistic system which is somewhat mirrored by the modern perspective of panpsychism) and the sramana tradition (called Jainism today). The Sramanas believed in extreme austerities -- starving, forcefully standing on only one foot for years at a time, and so on. The Samkhyans had a lot of meditative techniques and an elaborate cosmology (which is the basis of modern Hindu cosmology to a large extent). The Buddha studied with both schools -- his first teacher, Kaundinya was probably a Samkhyan. His teacher, Alara Kalama was from the Sramana tradition. So was Uddaka Ramaputta. 

 

Even after going beyond his teachers in both skill and depth of understanding, the Buddha didn't feel that what he learnt took him beyond suffering. So he contemplated further, and the rest, as they say, is history.  

Edited January 7, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

"I had no discernment of what was deviant or correct.

 

I would ask anyone and study anything, one day with Wang, another day with Li, a little bit of one then a little bit of something else.

Nothing came of this.

 

Then I met a Daoist who taught stillness techniques and he passed on his learning which I practiced assiduously as he instructed.

 

This involved circulating dantian qi, passing the tailbone and coccyx, up the back to Niwan the mud pellet at the top of the head, then down past Mingtang the bright hall at the eyebrows and into Huachi in the mouth. Then descending past Chonglou the layered tower of the trachea into Jianggong the Crimson Palace (i.e. the heart) and gathering the fluids of the heart, finally entering the yellow court of Huangting.

 

As these phenomena manifested I was pleased that I had obtained this effective “medicine,” such that even on a winter’s day I could sit quietly in a desolate place with a body burning like fire and no sensation of cold.

 

I congratulated myself that I had achieved the Dao, and had no need to seek out another teacher.

 

But then I met my first real teacher, the elder Kan Gu..."

 

Liu Yi Ming then goes on to mention meeting teacher after teacher - how with each successive teacher he was able to clarify further the true path to Dao.

 

Sometimes you have to come across something that is truly effective - and even seems complete - then dig deeper.

 

What you thought was achieving the Dao may just be the start...

[freeform]

And in relations to the sidetracked part of this thread:

 

""Within the indistinct dimness are things, before the separation of the polar attributes (Tai Ji), primal heaven and earth accumulate the true primal unified energy; that which is before Tai Ji is as if it were before the gods."

 

This directly points out that unified single qi of the primal heaven is a thing without shape or form, and that formless can generate form, shapeless can give rise to shape, generating heaven, generating earth, generating man and giving rise to the ten thousand things.

 

If a person can know this, they can break through primal chaos, reverse the qi mechanism, battle with creation, turn around life and death and refine a limitless body of immortality, becoming as indestructible as a diamond.

 

This is just as in the saying "know this, and you know all; with this one thing are ten thousand things accomplished""

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

And in relations to the sidetracked part of this thread:

 

""Within the indistinct dimness are things, before the separation of the polar attributes (Tai Ji), primal heaven and earth accumulate the true primal unified energy; that which is before Tai Ji is as if it were before the gods."

 

This directly points out that unified single qi of the primal heaven is a thing without shape or form, and that formless can generate form, shapeless can give rise to shape, generating heaven, generating earth, generating man and giving rise to the ten thousand things.

 

If a person can know this, they can break through primal chaos, reverse the qi mechanism, battle with creation, turn around life and death and refine a limitless body of immortality, becoming as indestructible as a diamond.

 

This is just as in the saying "know this, and you know all; with this one thing are ten thousand things accomplished""

Spoiler

Shvetaketu was the only son of Rishi Uddalaka. When he turned twelve, he was asked by his father to go and get his education from a Gurukula. When Shvetaketu returned from the Gurukula after finishing his twelve years rigorous training in all the branches of knowledge, his father Uddalaka found arrogance in his expression.

Once Uddalaka called him by his side and asked him, “Shvetaketu, my boy, have you, ever sought out the knowledge of that by which the unheard can be heard, the unseen can be seen, the unknowable can be known?” Shvetaketu was shocked. He had no idea about what his father had asked. So he requested his father to give him this knowledge.

Uddalaka told Shvetaketu, “Son, by knowing one lump of clay you may learn about everything made of clay; the only difference between such things is the name, a result of speech. But the truth is that all such things are of the same substance. Likewise, by knowing one chunk of gold, you may learn about everything made of gold; the only difference between such things is the name, a result of speech. But the truth is that all such things are of the same substance. And the same is true for even the simplest tools made of iron. This, my son, is the knowledge of which I speak.”

Uddalaka thus continued saying, “Dear child, in the beginning of things there was pure Being, one without a second. It willed to become many. Then, it manifested itself in the form of fire and from fire came water and from there came food. This way this rich variety of things came into existence by permutation and combination of these forms. Then life appeared, and among the living beings there came man with his varied powers and functions.”

Shvetaketu stopped his father from going ahead and asked him to explain where a man would do during sleep.

“The man becomes one with the Spirit, the eternal Being. Man’s mind is like a beast tied to a peg by a long rope. It turns round and round and can not get away. When a man dies his power of speech is merged into his mind, his mind is absorbed in the prana, the prana is merged into the light, and the light merges in the power beyond. That power is subtle. It pervades the universe. That is the Truth. That is the Spirit. That Thou art, O Shvetaketu.”

Shvetaketu was not satisfied and wanted to know more about that all pervading Power. Here Uddalaka explains to him beautifully about the One and the Many by giving examples.

He says, “Dear child, bees bring droplets of honey from various flowers and store in the hive. Once in the hive, do the droplets know from which flower they came? Need they know it? So too all these beings when merge into the ocean of Being, they know not whence they came. All become one when they have merged in the ocean of consciousness, of the One Being. That is subtle. That pervades everything. That is the Atman. That thou art, O Shvetaketu.”

Then Uddalaka gives the example of all rivers merging into the ocean and losing their individual identity. Then he gives another example in which he explains that by cutting a part of the tree the whole tree does not die. Only that part which is cut dies. Thus that which is deprived of its life dies but the life itself does not die. The power by which life lives eternally is the Spirit. That thou art O Shvetaketu.”

Shvetaketu listened to his father attentively and said: “My respected teachers must not have known this, for if they had, they surely would have told me. Won’t you please give me more of this knowledge, Father?” And Uddalaka agreed to do so. And we see further dialogues between Uddalaka and Shvetaketu in the following manner.

Uddalaka: “Bring me a fruit from the banyan tree.”

Shvetaketu: “Here is one, Father.”

Uddalaka: “Break it open.”

Shvetaketu: “It is broken, Father.”

Uddalaka: “What do you see there?”

Shvetaketu: “These tiny seeds.”

Uddalaka: “Now break one of them open.”

Shvetaketu: “It is broken, Father.”

Uddalaka: “What do you see there?” Shvetaketu: “Nothing, Father.”

Uddalaka: “My son, you know there is a subtle essence which you do not perceive, but through that essence the truly immense banyan tree exists. Believe it, my son. Everything that exists has its Self in that subtle essence. It is Truth. It is the Self, and you, Shvetaketu, are That (tattvamasi).”

Shvetaketu further pleaded with his father to teach him more, and Uddalaka continued:

Uddalaka: “Bring a pinch of salt my son.”

Shvetaketu: “Here, I have brought the salt Father.”

Uddalaka: “Place this salt in water, and come back to me in the morning.”

The son did as he was told.

Uddalaka (in the morning): “Bring me the salt you put in the water last night.”

Shvetaketu (after looking): “Father, I cannot find it.”

Uddalaka: “Of course not; it has dissolved. Now taste the water from the surface. How does it taste?”

Shvetaketu: “It’s salty.”

Uddalaka: “Taste the water from the middle of the bowl. How does it taste?”

Shvetaketu: “It’s salty.”

Uddalaka: “Now taste the water from the bottom. How does it taste?”

Shvetaketu: “It’s salty.”

Uddalaka: “Go, throw it away and come back to me.”

Shvetaketu did so, and returned.

Shvetaketu: “But, father, although I have thrown it away, the salt remains.”

Uddalaka: “Likewise, though you cannot hear or perceive or know the subtle essence, it is here. Everything that exists has its Self in that subtle essence. It is Truth. It is the Self, and you, Shvetaketu, are That (tattvamasi).”

What is presented here is just a glimpse of the entire teachings of Uddalaka to Shvetaketu in which he gives a very comprehensive idea about the Brahman and how to realize That.

 

[Apech]

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

The Vedic tradition had two primary modes of practice -- One is that of fire sacrifices and ritualistic meditation. The Vedic fire sacrifices were not just physical things being done -- there were esoteric actions performed too. What was being done externally, also needed to be done internally. That was the way for balance to be maintained in the external world, as well as the internal world. Similarly with Mantras -- the mantra practice tradition was borrowed by Buddhists as well  

 

I don't know if you are being deliberately provocative but you are just perpetuating the western scholar narrative which you later criticise.

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

The other mode of practice was the contemplative one -- where the sages would contemplate on the nature of reality, perform self-inquiry. Typically the self-inquiry aspect was done after sufficient disciplined efforts in the ritualistic mode of practice. Also, some would have us believe that the first mode was the older way, and the contemplative/inquiry-based was a later development. So they call the first mode as "purva mimamsa" and the second mode as "uttara mimamsa" or "vedanta". 

 

All Vedic knowledge is stored in the Vedas, of which there are four, and three are primary -- Rig Veda, Yajur Veda and Sāma Veda. The fourth, Atharva Veda is considered a later addition.  The vedic material is organized in layers. First layer is called the Samhitas -- which basically are a compilation of mantras, the Brahmanas -- these relate to the ritualistic aspect of the practice. These two form what is called the "karma kānda" (or action part) of the Vedas. Then we have the Aranyakas and the Upanishads -- these form the jnana kanda (the Wisdom part) of the Vedas. Vedanta as a system is based on the knowledge that the sages recorded in the Upanishads. 

 

Some practitioners opted to deal with the Karma Kanda of the Vedas -- and their path toward liberation was a gradual one -- where the individual soul evolved from human to higher realms, eventually reaching Satya loka, the realm of Light. This is considered the older way.

 

The other was the Jnana way, and in this, Vedanta, especially Advaita Vedanta (Non-dual Vedanta) provides the "Direct Path" -- without the evolutionary process, realize your true nature, and become liberated right here, right now. This is considered the "newer" Vedic way. Now, new and old are relative terms. Internal pointers in the Vedic literature point to a period of 22,000 years into antiquity (though this will be vehemently disputed by Western Historians) for the older mode. The newer mode is more a development from at least 12-14 thousand years back. 

 

Very doubtful dating not born out by any evidence apart from vague speculations about astronomical events.

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I don't know if you are being deliberately provocative but you are just perpetuating the western scholar narrative which you later criticise.

Yeah yeah...buddhabums stuff in buddhabums sub-forum please  

Quote

 

Very doubtful dating not born out by any evidence apart from vague speculations about astronomical events.

The evidence is not just astronomical...there is a lot of geographic/geological evidence as well. Check out Nilesh Oak's papers and presentations -- he is kicking western scholars' asses with his impeccable research and scholarship.

 

https://time.graphics/line/293798

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by dwai

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

The evidence is not just astronomical...there is a lot of geographic/geological evidence as well.

 

Oh no - please lets not go down that road now!

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I don't know if you are being deliberately provocative but you are just perpetuating the western scholar narrative which you later criticise.

 

 

Very doubtful dating not born out by any evidence apart from vague speculations about astronomical events.

 

All I'll say at this point is that I was a history major for my undergrad degree and I have never ever heard of any evidence for this sort of history in India or anywhere else that goes back this far in this manner.