Emotions are the path

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

That gives a choice between the bottom-up view from the human and the top-down view into the human.

 

Humans know to use parallel processing and multiple redundancy to have efficient and reliable results.  What does the spirit use when having a human experience?

 

 

I’ve heard of Parallel processing, just that line in general is familiar. I like it, I have one just like it.

 

Humans excel in Psychic Dominance.

[C T]

4 hours ago, Mithras said:

 

Humans excel in Psychic Dominance.

 

Must've learnt it from cats.

[Nungali]

 

 

You mean,  dominatrix learnt it  from domestic cat tricks  ?  

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Nungali

[old3bob]

12 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

That gives a choice between the bottom-up view from the human and the top-down view into the human.

 

Humans know to use parallel processing and multiple redundancy to have efficient and reliable results.  What does the spirit use when having a human experience?

 

 

 

is that a rhetorical type question?   All forms are forms including human ones, spirit sees that.

[Lairg]

Does the spirit use parallel humans so that its purposes can be reliably accomplished even if some humans fail?

 

Does each of the humans think that they alone have the mission?

 

  

 

 

 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

Does the spirit use parallel humans so that its purposes can be reliably accomplished even if some humans fail?

 

Does each of the humans think that they alone have the mission?

  

 

(ah, more rhetorical like questions)

Spirit does as it will...whether seen or unseen, whether heard or unheard by us humans...

 

"....The idea of rocks crying out in praise to the Lord is poetic, startling imagery. Throughout Scripture are similar poetic passages that present inanimate objects praising God. For example, in Psalm 114:6, the mountains leap. Isaiah 55:12 says, “You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.” Throughout Psalm 148, there are numerous examples of created things praising their Creator—the sun, moon, stars, heavens, water, sky, animals, and people. Everyone and everything was created for the pleasure of the sovereign Lord..."  

 

I'd say that besides  only the  Bible context above,  many things and stars do sing. (reliably)

There is also the Lord of Dance - Lord Nataraja...(Shiva) in Vedic context.

Edited April 15, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

so and rhetorical question like, is there any reason not to comment that there is the "emotion" of Spirit, and there is the 'emotion" of mankind, (and also all creatures) thus be a lot more flexible with that term?

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by old3bob

[Lairg]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

more rhetorical like questions

 

The reason I asked "Does each of the humans think that they alone have the mission?" is that I am conversing with one of those on another forum.  He believes that he is here to save the planet and has full authority to do that

 

He would be better to consider that perhaps hundreds of others are part of the same mission - thereby putting his own part into a better perspective.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

there is the "emotion" of Spirit, and there is the 'emotion" of mankind, 

 

I am well familiar with the emotion of mankind but not the emotion of Spirit.

 

Do you mean an experience within the human or within the Spirit?

[old3bob]

well an iperience with/as  spirit - which could be expressed as joy springing forth without having its opposite of sorrow standing by  in the wings...(so to speak)

[Nungali]

40 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

The reason I asked "Does each of the humans think that they alone have the mission?" is that I am conversing with one of those on another forum.  He believes that he is here to save the planet and has full authority to do that

 

He would be better to consider that perhaps hundreds of others are part of the same mission - thereby putting his own part into a better perspective.

 

 

'Save the planet'   .....    you mean , keep it the way he likes it .   Planet dont need saving by mere humans .....  they are just a temporary  minor case of fleas .  Planet can be dead rocks , bathed in radiation, all ocean  or  lava with meteor bombardment  ... planet is still okay .

 

Maybe its the  little  ego filled  ' we have primary importance' humans that need saving ?  

 

'Save the planet ' .....  harumph ! 

 

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

well an iperience with/as  spirit - which could be expressed as joy springing forth without having its opposite of sorrow standing by  in the wings...(so to speak)

 

I tend to consider emotion as arising in the personality while joy seems to arise in the soul.

 

Recently I have met a couple of people with whom I immediately experienced tears of joy.

 

 

[old3bob]

39 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

I tend to consider emotion as arising in the personality while joy seems to arise in the soul.

 

Recently I have met a couple of people with whom I immediately experienced tears of joy.

 

 

Well I'd say a joy that is inherently "truth, knowledge, bliss" and related freedom does not exactly arise, it already is...(even if and when veiled) known as Satchidananda in Vedic terms.

 

from the web...

"what is Satchidananda?

It's a combination of three words: Sat, Chid, Ananda. Sat means Existence or Truth. Chid is the expression, knowledge, of it. Ananda is the Bliss you get out of it. So Truth, Knowledge, Bliss is what we mean by the word Satchidananda"

Edited April 16, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

On 4/15/2023 at 2:26 PM, old3bob said:

 

well an iperience with/as  spirit - which could be expressed as joy springing forth without having its opposite of sorrow standing by  in the wings...(so to speak)

 

 

… the situation occurs, Ananda, when wanderers belonging to other sects may speak thus: ‘The recluse (Gautama) speaks of the stopping of perceiving and feeling, and lays down that this belongs to happiness. Now what is this, now how is this?’ Ananda, wanderers belonging to other sects who speak thus should be spoken to thus: ‘Your reverences, (Gautama) does not lay down that it is only pleasant feeling that belongs to happiness; for, your reverences, the Tathagatha (the “Thus-Gone One”, the Buddha) lays down that whenever, wherever, whatever happiness is found it belongs to happiness. 

 

(MN I 400, Pali Text Society MN Vol. II p 69)
 

 

On 4/12/2023 at 12:11 PM, stirling said:

 

All purpose is illusory. IMHO the relative is a mirror, and that mirror points you toward the absolute aspect of reality. "You" generate the relative, its purpose, "self", things, time, and space.

 

 

Purpose, intent, will, determinate thought.  Gautama taught the cessation of action by determinate thought, of purposeful action:
 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)
 

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.”

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV p 85)

 

"And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:--those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities."
 

(SN II 3, PTS vol II p 4)

 

 

“…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

(SN IV 217, PTS vol IV p 146)

 

The cessation of “inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration is the cessation of “determinate thought” in action of the body (in “deed”), and the cessation of “perception and feeling” in the last of the concentrations is the cessation of “determinate thought” in action of the mind.
 

Gautama spoke of the cessation of “inbreathing and outbreathing”.  Activity in the body that is initiated by volition, by choice, affects the movement of breath, and can leave a residue of habit that also affects the movement of breath.  Gautama taught that the exercise of volition with regard to the body can cease, and with that, the influence of volition on “inbreathing and outbreathing”.
 

“And of what sort is the controlling power of concentration?
 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.”
 

(SN v 198, PTS vol V p 174, SN “noble” substituted for Ariyan, neutral in place of masculine pronouns)
 

I have described the experience of “one-pointedness of mind” as something that can occur in the movement of breath:
 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)
 

I would say that the cessation of choice in the “consciousness-informed body” (Gautama’s phrase) is a matter of letting awareness center from a singular place that allows the breath to move autonomically, while simultaneously enabling the entire body "with no particle left out" to inform the location of that place.  The experience of such a singular place from one breath to the next is “one-pointedness”, or “one-pointedness of mind”.
 

…good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit.
 

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 76, 78)
 

…When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all.

(Ibid)


We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body.

(quote by Hida Haramitsu, from his “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added--taken from “Introduction to Zen Training”, Rinzai master Omori Sogen)
 

 

Feldenkrais and Haramitsu both pointed to an awareness of the center of gravity and to a juxtaposition of the center of gravity with a particular location in space--“over the feet” in Feldenkrais’s case, and “in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body” in Haramitsu’s.

Feldenkrais spoke of a consequent “automatic movement” in the legs, stemming from the “old nervous system”.  I believe Haramitsu’s instruction is also intended to induce “automatic movement”, yet the movement that is induced is the activity of inhalation and exhalation in the seated posture.


(Most of this, I've dragged in from what I hope will be my next post on my own site--seems relevant to the conversation on the thread, although possibly not to Apech's topic--apologies!)

Edited April 16, 2023 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

umm,  Buddhists should respond to all the convoluted (to me) Buddhist quotes, but thanks anyway Mark.

[manitou]

Mark, you may be overthinking it just a bit....

[Mark Foote]

On 4/17/2023 at 5:08 PM, manitou said:

Mark, you may be overthinking it just a bit....
 

Stirling wrote that "all purpose is illusory". 

 

How does a cessation of purposeful activity, of intentional activity, come about?  I get excited, to think that there's an approach to cessation, and I'm afraid I let myself get carried away.  Apologies, old3bob and manitou, for the level of detail.

Unfortunately, the floggings will continue until the morale improves... 

 

I can't help myself--I feel like I have a sense of purpose, and I love that.

Are emotions the path?  The path to good writing?  Maybe not! 

[steve]

50 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

How does a cessation of purposeful activity, of intentional activity, come about? 

 

I suspect your question is rhetorical but I'll offer a response anyway for anyone interested.

 

One way to approach this question is the recognition that cessation is already always there - it's the stillness within movement, the silence beneath sound, the spaciousness that hosts form.

It is the foundation of what and who we are, ever-present yet too close to notice. 

There is nothing we can do or think about that will cause cessation to occur, it is non-doing that allows cessation.

Leaving everything that arises just as it is, not engaging, not suppressing, not even observing.

This is the direction we go and is referred to as non-meditation.

The process starts out very active by necessity due to our habitual patterns. 

 Observing and noticing distraction and engagement, then releasing and resting - over and over again.

The use of energetic methods can help the clearing and opening to occur.

Eventually the process requires less and less effort until the releasing occurs of itself with an inertia all its own,.

 

50 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I get excited, to think that there's an approach to cessation, and I'm afraid I let myself get carried away. 

 

Any excitement, any thinking are always obstacles.

Leaving these be as they are, not engaging, is the way to move closer to cessation.

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling wrote that "all purpose is illusory". 

 

"All" is a very big word.  It seems to cover parallel universes and before any universes existed.

 

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be:  purposes within the unenlightened personality are usually not what they seem.

 

I observed an obvious exception to my statement the other day.  A 3 year old girl was carefully carrying her doll.  The purpose seemed clear to me:  she was practising to be a mother.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 4/18/2023 at 10:08 AM, manitou said:

Mark, you may be overthinking it just a bit....

 

 

Yes  ... but I am understanding some of what he wrote ;

 

:

"  When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet  ... "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Nungali

[steve]

26 minutes ago, Lairg said:

A 3 year old girl was carefully carrying her doll.  The purpose seemed clear to me:  she was practising to be a mother.

 

Who is mother to what is unborn?

I think this is what stirling refers to when he says "all purpose is illusory."

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling wrote that "all purpose is illusory". 

 

How does a cessation of purposeful activity, of intentional activity, come about?  I get excited, to think that there's an approach to cessation, and I'm afraid I let myself get carried away.  Apologies, old3bob and manitou, for the level of detail.

Unfortunately, the floggings will continue until the morale improves... 

 

I can't help myself--I feel like I have a sense of purpose, and I love that.

Are emotions the path?  The path to good writing?  Maybe not! 

 

The cessation of intentional activity comes about by the realization of the emptiness of self - Satori. That is the ONLY way it comes about. You could make a story about the method that creates that situation, but there ISN'T one that is somehow true for everyone, and definitely not one that you can predictively use for yourself. It is realized to be strangely uncomplicated once revealed. This is why Suzuki said:

 

Quote

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi

 

He also said:

 

Quote

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

Why? Because there ARE no enlightened people. Enlightenment is seeing through the delusion of intention or control or any "self" that is in charge. Enlightenment is the end of ignorance.

 

Dogen says:

 

Quote

To carry your self forward and illuminate the myriad things, the myriad dharmas, is delusion. That the myriad things come forth and illuminate themselves is awakening or enlightenment. - Dogen

 

Then he says:

 

Quote

Those who are greatly enlightened about delusion are Buddhas. Those who have great delusions about enlightenment are sentient beings or deluded beings. - Dogen 

 

It is the same as the Lojong instructions for post-meditation in the 7 Point Mind Training:

 

Quote

 

<<In post-meditation practice, be a child of illusion.>>

 

After meditation, do not allow the experience of resting evenly to dissipate, no matter what form of activity you engage in. Continually foster the feeling of knowing that all appearances, yourself, others, animate or in-animate, appear though they seem to be nothing - be like a child of illusion. - Jamgon Kongtrul

 

 

This is enlightened view. 

 

All purpose is illusory for the same reason. Purpose implies the absolute reality of "self", others, things, space, and time. All of these aspects are ultimately non-dual. Having said this, the phenomenal world doesn't go away it is just seen for what it is, illusory, populated by the ornaments of emptiness.

 

Extemporaneous Koan:

 

To make a fire, you will require two sticks. What kind of fire do you make when you rub two illusory sticks together?

[old3bob]

there is nowhere and no-time where God is not...

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

there is nowhere and no-time where God is not...

 

So God is in the human. 

 

Is the human purposeless?  Perhaps made to use up left-overs?

 

 

[old3bob]

"Perhaps" somewhere between "to be or not to be" ...

 

By Yutang Lin

"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".

Edited April 24, 2023 by old3bob